1st Hearts Picture by Wink - Thanks John Quixote

[WinkHPD]

I did not get that impression from John''s analysis last evening, but again, I do not claim to be an expert on these, that is why I am asking the experts to have at it. I acknowledge that this is not a perfect H&A, but is better, far better than many stones I see that are sent to me as H&A and that are sold as H&A.

I am interested in knowing at what point a stone can be or can not be called H&A, or is it better to do as Todd does and simply not call any stone an H&A. The PGS consultation on this stone calls it a"Top Ideal Cut" "Displays Hearts and Arrows pattern." It obviously meets their parameters, but I am wanting to also hear from John and Gary.

What is it about the circled area that tells you this is not a true H&A?

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 2/26/2005 2:32:30 PM
Author: strmrdr
Wink super-ideal and ideal are too different critters.
If you want me to stop and just say its a beautiful diamond I will but if you want my analyst of the diamond and im real picky about it I will take some time to do so.

This is why I hate working with someone''s in stock diamond when doing this.

That is not a problem. I know the stone is not perfect, and it is priced accordingly. I am putting this up to learn from the masters of these pickinesses. I know how to sell based on beauty and emotions, I do it every day, that does not mean I do not want to know more about WHY a stone is more or less beautiful. I appreciate your comments and am not offended.

Wink

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 2/26/2005 1:44:27 PM
Author: Wink
Okay, here is the REST OF THE STORY.

No full Sarin report, only the numbers from the PGS Consultation. Enclosed full frontal picture, arrows picture, and hearts picture.

Please feel free to comment. There are perhaps some very minor problems, and I accept that this is not a PERFECT H&A stone, but I submitt that it is far superior to many that are being sold as H&A while not quite perhaps to the standard of a Venus or a Whiteflash. Very little light leakage on the idealscope picture though.

I want to know more about how to read these photos, rather than just present them as proof of how nice a stone this is. I have a headache from your earlier posts, go ahead, KNOCK ME THE REST of the way OUT!

Wink

P.S. John knows I am really eating this up, it makes my head hurt, but it is so wonderful to gain this knowledge!

Ain''t it fun?

Seeing these images is helpful. There is an issue with saturation in the IS photo (abundance of light). We solved this by getting the tray system.

Note that arrows at 12 and 4:30 appear darker. Sometimes this is an issue with leveling of the stone - but in such circumstances you will logically see a difference in length of the arrowshafts, unless you have a tilted table (rare). Not with this stone, however: A tilted table would have made itself obvious in the pavilion image in the H&A viewer (we discussed this on the phone).

I PS''d the IS and as you can see the stone appears level. Therefore, some girdle variation or treatment may be in play to cause some of these little inconsistencies - or its possible that with the oversaturation there is light entering from above hither & thither. We''d have a better read in a more airtight system. Be aware, Wink, that people are starting to analyze IS photos to the nth degree - just as they are banging their mugs on the table demanding more info across the board.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

While not wishing to comment on the extent of the partterning, i just wondered if i was corrrect in something i noticed in the hearts picture. I''ve attached a marked up image - that the lower girdles on the hearts at 3, 6, 7:30 and 9 appear to have some yaw to them. I dont know what you said the symetry grading was - so it could be down to that, or else just not perfect perpendicular shot... but then like i said... im just here to learn from the great and good.

heres the image.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 2/26/2005 2

8:35 PM
Author: strmrdr
Lets see if I can avoid making a fool out of myself.
Let me start by saying this is a beautiful near h&a Diamond.
The crown angle number is a little high at 35.3 to be considered super ideal in my opinion.

Now lets tear it apart a little :}
Lets start with the girdle facets which I put blue marks on and circled.
They are a little uneven.

If you look at the ideal-scope image the white leakage marks around the arrows are different sizes and different distance from the arrows.
I suspect that the girdle on this one is a little wavey.
But this isnt being marketed as a super-ideal so no biggie.

edit: woops just noticed I missed a tick mark or 2 on the top photo but I think its enough to get the idea.

Strm,

Not foolish at all. Good catch on apparent unevenness, but let’s consider other factors before jumping to girdle wave. After all, the pavilion patterning is nice enough for us to glean that someone wanted this diamond well cut. In the magnified crown photo, it appears our old friend leveling may not have been perfect. Check out the breaks between arrowshafts and heads, not apparent in the we-know-it-was-level IS.

The IS is over-saturated, so we can’t say whether those spots are tangible leakage/girdle issues. This is why a detailed Sarin would help, though of course an IS with equal leveling and better light control would help more.

 

[strmrdr]

John currect me if im wrong but while the size would change with tilt the relative positioning compared to the arrow heads wouldnt it?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/26/2005 2:36:14 PM
Author: Wink
What is it about the circled area that tells you this is not a true H&A?


Wink

Size and shape compared to the others.
The one opposite it also is off.
Which would rule out a tilt issue.
When they are off it points to the rest of it being off because all of the shapes that make up one heart image are dependant on one another.

As to wether this is a true h&a or not I can only call it the way I see it and give my opinion.
Iv seen a lot worse called h&a.
Id call this one near h&a.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

umm i might be wrong on this... but with diamonds being mirrors... if the diamond is tilted then the reflections are going to be slightly off depending on their positions to the camera and the angle of tilt.

Like this one...

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/26/2005 3:42:35 PM
Author: Lord Summerisle
umm i might be wrong on this... but with diamonds being mirrors... if the diamond is tilted then the reflections are going to be slightly off depending on their positions to the camera and the angle of tilt.


Like this one...

Would need to see an untilted image of the same stone to compare.
Which I have done with others but dont have them on this computer.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 2/26/2005 2:23

6 PM
Author: Wink

Hmm, working from memory, I think I am allowed clear up to a 35.8 to be consided ideal, but those numbers are constantly changing, and I don''t know if AGS will still allow that steep in their new parameters, Paul or John or Gary could tell you that better than I.

I believe that this stone qualifies as an H&A under most guidelines here in the states, and certainly qualifies as an ideal cut, and with an HCA of 1.2 it is incredibly beautiful. I know I get worse stones from dealers all the time claiming to be H&A, including the one in the photographic evidence thread that I just posted the horrible hearts on. I also believe that there could have been minor improvements made on the stone, but am curious if they would be eye visible to the normal retail client? At what point do we start buying paper and forget about beauty? And you are right, it is priced lower than a Venus by Infinity by a few %, as it does have these minor transgressions.

Wink

Wink – welcome to my world

This is Strm being Strm. His idea of H&A comes from wrapping himself in a batter of thick info and deep-frying in the boiling oil of PS standards with spicy Ims and emails from some of the cut geeks thrown in.

I was discussing something like this with one of our best consumer voices on PS the other day… What is broadly accepted/presented in the trade is not the same as the standard amongst those sitting nekkid on the PS mountain top, consorting with the dali lamas of cut.

The vendors of high quality H&A typically have a range of tighter proven proportions than merely “Ideal.” Stones cut to the outer limits of current AGS 0 are nowhere near as tight and consistent in performance as those cut to nice, meaty combos. I don’t know that we will be seeing narrowing in the new system – but we may be seeing minor facets included...Even so, neither GIA or AGS’ new system will address H&A type patterning.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 2/26/2005 3

8:13 PM
Author: Lord Summerisle
While not wishing to comment on the extent of the partterning, i just wondered if i was corrrect in something i noticed in the hearts picture. I've attached a marked up image - that the lower girdles on the hearts at 3, 6, 7:30 and 9 appear to have some yaw to them. I dont know what you said the symetry grading was - so it could be down to that, or else just not perfect perpendicular shot... but then like i said... im just here to learn from the great and good.

heres the image.

I see no yaw of note in the 8 large hearts patterns, M'Lord. If you look on page 1, I included diagrams of what causes the points in the hearts. The juxtappostion of those 2 adjacent but slightly varying reflections may appear similar. The reflections below the points are secondary. Two things say to me that any yaw is not of note... 1. The bold hearts patterns do not show it. 2. No stray girdle reflections of the type associated with yaw.

I have already indicated that there are slight inconsistencies – likely unaveraged variance - causing what you are noting in lower girdle/pavilion main construction. That may be simple azimuth shift. I would ask Brian for a second opinion.

KEEPING it real: If this were a common example of what was marketed as H&A I'd be jumping for joy for the marketplace. The level of MANY so-called H&A is shoddy enough that the definition has been diluted, perhaps beyond repair until a grading system is being established. This is a very righteous diamond.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 2/26/2005 3:37:52 AM
Author: Colored Gemstone Nut

Wink - Scanners like Sarin measure using silhouettes. The problem is that there is also azimuth to a facet, not just basic inclination and Sarin doesn't get this. The Helium is more accurate because it measures angle of inclination and azimuth so it picks up smaller distortions and details. It comes up with a 3D model and even reports things like extra facets.

In addition to the obvious large-scale implications of improved accuracy, Helium could also prove useful with the small but pertinent-to-us details of facet yaw.

Interesting read John:

I have read in the past that sarin measuring using silhouettes have a hard time differentiating between the upper girdle and bezel facets. Some diamonds scanned display such a minimal difference between the average upper girdles and the bezels, there’s a difficult time distinguishing the separation of facets and where the junctions of the UG facets occur. Because of the indistinct facet junctions the facets seem to be merged into one curved facet.

Can traditional silhouette sarin scanning technology be improved to alter this flaw in scanning?

Just catching up on reading this thread. In answer to your question Josh, YES it can be improved and has.

My ultimate test for a scanner is to throw a diamond on it just like your describing, at least for facet measurement.

Here is a Sarin scan done on a diamond with 34.5 crown angles and 36.2 avg upper girdle angles and prior to our Sarin tweak.

[edited to add: you must download and install the Sarin Web Viewer to open these files]

1st Scan

Here is a scan of the same stone after the tweak.

2nd Scan

While not the most perfect scan, it's the best we've been able to accomplish on the Sarin and it does resolve all of the bezels & upper girdles.

The OGI can't do it (at least not of yet anyhow). On any other stone where the angles are not so close our Sarin can produce models that are as spot on as I've yet to see. I'll post with some examples to demonstrate how far we've come with our models.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 2/26/2005 3:39:49 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 2/26/2005 2:36:14 PM

Author: Wink

What is it about the circled area that tells you this is not a true H&A?

Wink

Size and shape compared to the others.
The one opposite it also is off.
Which would rule out a tilt issue.
When they are off it points to the rest of it being off because all of the shapes that make up one heart image are dependant on one another.

As to wether this is a true h&a or not I can only call it the way I see it and give my opinion.

Iv seen a lot worse called h&a.

Id call this one near h&a.

Strm, in the hearts image there can be no tilt. The stone rests on its table.

Guys I discussed all of this on the last page. They are inconsistent LGF lengths.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 2/26/2005 4:51:48 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
The scanner companies have been under a lot of pressure to reduce the number of images taken to build the scan.

In addition, and as part of this process, the scanners use averaging algortithms - so they automatically place the facets opposite each other at 0, 45, 90, ...etc. If you want higher accuracy then you must take more scans. But a computer can not process +400 photos in 15 seconds.

My arguement with the scanner companies is the exact opposite. I don''t want a rush job with an inaccureate model. I want the slowest scan possible at the highest resolution. Gary, if possible can you have Janak email me a helium or .srn file for analysis? I''d be curious to see what he''s cutting and it would avoid a trip to India.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/26/2005 4:16:37 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 2/26/2005 3:39:49 PM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 2/26/2005 2:36:14 PM

Strm, in the hearts image there can be no tilt. The stone rests on its table.


Guys I discussed all of this on the last page. They are inconsistent LGF lengths.

:}
There can be and sometimes is tilt issues if the scope and the camera lense are not properly squared up the surface the table is resting on.
I know you discussed it but wink asked me what Im seeing and I was trying to tell him.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/26/2005 4:18:41 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 2/26/2005 4:51:48 AM

Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

The scanner companies have been under a lot of pressure to reduce the number of images taken to build the scan.


In addition, and as part of this process, the scanners use averaging algortithms - so they automatically place the facets opposite each other at 0, 45, 90, ...etc. If you want higher accuracy then you must take more scans. But a computer can not process +400 photos in 15 seconds.

My arguement with the scanner companies is the exact opposite. I don''t want a rush job with an inaccureate model. I want the slowest scan possible at the highest resolution. Gary, if possible can you have Janak email me a helium or .srn file for analysis? I''d be curious to see what he''s cutting and it would avoid a trip to India.

Exackly the reason I want real images and not computer generated models.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

Date: 2/26/2005 3:46:52 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 2/26/2005 3:42:35 PM

Author: Lord Summerisle

umm i might be wrong on this... but with diamonds being mirrors... if the diamond is tilted then the reflections are going to be slightly off depending on their positions to the camera and the angle of tilt.



Like this one...

Would need to see an untilted image of the same stone to compare.

Which I have done with others but dont have them on this computer.

umm what i can say its a calibration CZ that was sent out with the Ideal scope from Garry''s site. if that gives you an idea.

 

[WinkHPD]

My goodness! All of this input is so fantastic! Thank you all! John, I appreciate that you, coming from the top of the mountain acknowledge that this is a righteous diamond even while not being quite the standard of what you and Brian would offer, and Storm, I appreciate knowing where the tough crowd is coming from. It helps me to know these things so that I do not inadvertantly offend, even though I may dissagree with some of your opinions. I think that this stone does meet the meter to be a true Hearts and Arrows stone, but not one of the TOP TOP H&A''s such as a Whiteflash or a Venus by Infinity. You feel that it does not. I can live with that, and with the fact that there are those who would agree with you. I am also pleased to be able to discuss the issue with you as an issue, not as a personality conflict. It has been a wonderful discussion.

I am proud to have found a source of these stones in the smaller sizes at a better price to compliment the wonderful Venus by Infinity branded stones that I am even more proud of offering, at a slightly higher price of course. I believe there is a market for both of them.

Wink

P.S. Jonathon, good to see you too my friend, now get busy and write me that chapter we talked about, I am trying to get that book done in the next couple of months! You know, the chapter you promised me after your vacation was over LAST SUMMER!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

It is a vast improvement Rhino - it allows the hearts to show in DiamCalc.

I will get something from Janak - but dont expect the nit-picky super ideal standards that you guys are expounding on this thread

Boy you''all are getting in really deep - soon it will be impossible for any diamond to ever pass any test.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 2/26/2005 9:40:10 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
It is a vast improvement Rhino - it allows the hearts to show in DiamCalc.

I will get something from Janak - but dont expect the nit-picky super ideal standards that you guys are expounding on this thread

Boy you'all are getting in really deep - soon it will be impossible for any diamond to ever pass any test.

Now Garry, just because my personal obsession is gourmet doesn't mean I don't appreciate a great hamburger. I got Angela a pair of "plain" non H&A ideal studs that pass my test every night.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/26/2005 9:40:10 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
It is a vast improvement Rhino - it allows the hearts to show in DiamCalc.


I will get something from Janak - but dont expect the nit-picky super ideal standards that you guys are expounding on this thread

Boy you'all are getting in really deep - soon it will be impossible for any diamond to ever pass any test.

Thats the point if im paying a large amount of extra money then the diamond better live up to it.
If a vendor wants to get extra money for a super-ideal H&A diamond then it better be amoung the best of the best.

 

[Rhino]

Too funny John. That test is, of course, the most important one.

Hey Wink!!! Thanks for the hello and it''s always a pleasure to see you around too bro! I''m in the final stages of completing a major project so my time has been extremely limited (what else is new?).

Great thread btw and some excellent insights from our friend Sir John.

Gary ... like John I come down for some burgers too. If you can get a few files for me I''d sure be interested.

 

[Rhino]

Gary, check out this model.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/Diamonds2005/BR1241FSI1-5856107/BR1241FSI1-5856107.srn

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 2/26/2005 11

2

1 PM
Author: Rhino

Great thread btw and some excellent insights from our friend Sir John.

Gary ... like John I come down for some burgers too. If you can get a few files for me I'd sure be interested.

Rhino, thanks. I've had excellent teachers you know.

Garry, I'll reimburse you what it costs to CC me when you email files to Jonathan.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 2/26/2005 11:13:35 PM
Author: Rhino
Gary, check out this model.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/Diamonds2005/BR1241FSI1-5856107/BR1241FSI1-5856107.srn

Like so many Sarin Web Views Jonathon - this one keeps crashing my Explorer.
Maybe you can email it to me as a .srn

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/27/2005 12:13:39 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 2/26/2005 11:13:35 PM

Author: Rhino

Gary, check out this model.


http://www.goodoldgold.com/Diamonds2005/BR1241FSI1-5856107/BR1241FSI1-5856107.srn

Like so many Sarin Web Views Jonathon - this one keeps crashing my Explorer.

Maybe you can email it to me as a .srn

Right click the link and select save as and save it to your hard drive.
Then you can open it however you like.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/26/2005 8:20:47 PM
Author: Wink
My goodness! All of this input is so fantastic! Thank you all! John, I appreciate that you, coming from the top of the mountain acknowledge that this is a righteous diamond even while not being quite the standard of what you and Brian would offer, and Storm, I appreciate knowing where the tough crowd is coming from. It helps me to know these things so that I do not inadvertantly offend, even though I may dissagree with some of your opinions. I think that this stone does meet the meter to be a true Hearts and Arrows stone, but not one of the TOP TOP H&A's such as a Whiteflash or a Venus by Infinity. You feel that it does not. I can live with that, and with the fact that there are those who would agree with you. I am also pleased to be able to discuss the issue with you as an issue, not as a personality conflict. It has been a wonderful discussion.


I am proud to have found a source of these stones in the smaller sizes at a better price to compliment the wonderful Venus by Infinity branded stones that I am even more proud of offering, at a slightly higher price of course. I believe there is a market for both of them.


Wink

I think its a great idea to have 2 lines.
That way people who want too can find some very beautiful diamonds without having to pay the premium for the best of the best.
Part of the problem as you learned is that there is no set standard of where the cut off point is for true h&a.
I have no problem with someone offering this diamond as long as its properly priced for what it is.
Id be more comfortable with an ags cert especially in a D color diamond and its something you might consider, PGS has a good reputation in the trade but is a virtual unknown to a lot of consumers.
If I was in your place and launching a second line Id go for g,h,i vs2 and eyeclean si1 in by my standards near h&a.
They would make for very exellent bling for the buck diamonds that would see high demand on Pricescope if priced right.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 2/27/2005 11

9

3 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 2/26/2005 8:20:47 PM
Author: Wink
My goodness! All of this input is so fantastic! Thank you all! John, I appreciate that you, coming from the top of the mountain acknowledge that this is a righteous diamond even while not being quite the standard of what you and Brian would offer, and Storm, I appreciate knowing where the tough crowd is coming from. It helps me to know these things so that I do not inadvertantly offend, even though I may dissagree with some of your opinions. I think that this stone does meet the meter to be a true Hearts and Arrows stone, but not one of the TOP TOP H&A''s such as a Whiteflash or a Venus by Infinity. You feel that it does not. I can live with that, and with the fact that there are those who would agree with you. I am also pleased to be able to discuss the issue with you as an issue, not as a personality conflict. It has been a wonderful discussion.


I am proud to have found a source of these stones in the smaller sizes at a better price to compliment the wonderful Venus by Infinity branded stones that I am even more proud of offering, at a slightly higher price of course. I believe there is a market for both of them.


Wink

I think its a great idea to have 2 lines.
That way people who want too can find some very beautiful diamonds without having to pay the premium for the best of the best.
Part of the problem as you learned is that there is no set standard of where the cut off point is for true h&a.
I have no problem with someone offering this diamond as long as its properly priced for what it is.
Id be more comfortable with an ags cert especially in a D color diamond and its something you might consider, PGS has a good reputation in the trade but is a virtual unknown to a lot of consumers.
If I was in your place and launching a second line Id go for g,h,i vs2 and eyeclean si1 in by my standards near h&a.
They would make for very exellent bling for the buck diamonds that would see high demand on Pricescope if priced right.

Yes, it would be nice to be able to do so, but I am having to buy these by the parcel, and I do NOT get to pick and choose to get the pricing that I am currently getting, although I did refuse so far one stone that was outside the parameters of our agreement in the quality of cutting. My supplier was REALLY cranked, not at me for sending it back, but at himself for letting it get by. He rejects about 20% of the output from his factory in Israel and for me to have only rejected one stone out of all that he has sent me is pretty phenominal. EightStar has NEVER sent me a stone that I could find fault with in their pattern. Venus by Infinity is excellent also, but every other supplier that I have, and I have several good ones, has sent me stones that I want to tear my hair out over from time to time.

That means that I will continue to have stones outside the parameters that you quote, although that would be a great selection of stones.

By the way, I took many of the stones from the first batch that I bought and sent them to AGS to get a second cert. One came backa color grade higher than the PGS cert and one came back a clarity grade lower. I called both Tom Tashey at PGS and AGS to discuss the stone. Both called it a borderline stone, one AGS calling it a very high SI1 and PGS calling it a low VS2. Personally I agreed with PGS but could not fault AGS for thinking it the other side of the border. I have seen worse GIA stones graded as VS2, but as the recent test by Pricescope clearly showed, grading is still quite subjective.

Wink