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2.07 Carats for 8.2K: Conclusion and Pictures!

2 Carats Under 8K: Doable or Bad Idea?

  • I thought it was a bad idea to start, and I still think so.

    Votes: 29 40.3%

  • Seemed kind of crazy to begin with, but can't argue with results.

    Votes: 34 47.2%

  • Yes it's doable! I'll be looking into buying my next diamond this way.

    Votes: 9 12.5%
  • Total voters
    72
Congrats! Would love to see hand shots! I would just resize it. I was nervous too when I had to resize mine down .5 but it was totally fine. If JA breaks something during resizing, they will just remake the ring. Or if they think that it can't be resized, they'll remake it in the appropriate size.
 
@HDer you mentioned getting the narola login for Hong Kong, can I ask how did you manage to do that? We are in HK often enough and this just might work ;)2
 
The short of it us use their sign up sheet. They ask for your company details but don't do any real verification.

I should clarify. There's Narola and there's Hari Krishna also abbreviated as HK.

Most of their diamonds are still in India though but they tend to ship them through Hong Kong.

Once a year there's a Hong Kong jewelry fair where they will have a booth. You don't need to be an industry member to go to the jewelry fair and it's free if you sign up in advance.

If you are having trouble getting login credentials then just let me know what you're looking for and I'll run a search for you.
 
Congrats on your engagement! Lovely ring & lovely pics! :love:
 
I'm glad it worked out for you and your gf is happy with the end result. Most US based purchasers wouldn't be willing to take the risk you did. What is your recourse if you did not receive a GIA certed stone or even an actual diamond? Write a bad review on PS? How would you go about getting a refund from a website based in China or India? I highly doubt IDJ would be willing to insert itself into this dispute for $400.
 
It really is a beautiful diamond!
I remember when I saw it at IDJ, no way I could believe it was an L color diamond.
Congratulations!
 
baby monster said:
I'm glad it worked out for you and your gf is happy with the end result. Most US based purchasers wouldn't be willing to take the risk you did. What is your recourse if you did not receive a GIA certed stone or even an actual diamond? Write a bad review on PS? How would you go about getting a refund from a website based in China or India? I highly doubt IDJ would be willing to insert itself into this dispute for $400.
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That's a good question. The answer to that is that IDJ orders stones from these companies in India all the time because most of the cutting and polishing for diamonds is done in India. So these companies are "known quantities" in the trade and if they ever tried to intentionally send the wrong or a fake diamond to a retailer they would be blacklisted from the trade very quickly. Narola in fact is a supplier to James Allen which is why they use the Segoma video technology.

Madison2 said:
It really is a beautiful diamond!
I remember when I saw it at IDJ, no way I could believe it was an L color diamond.
Congratulations!
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Thank you! Such a wonderful coincidence that you were in the shop that day. Definitely helped give me a boost in confidence.
 
HDer said:
That's a good question. The answer to that is that IDJ orders stones from these companies in India all the time because most of the cutting and polishing for diamonds is done in India. So these companies are "known quantities" in the trade and if they ever tried to intentionally send the wrong or a fake diamond to a retailer they would be blacklisted from the trade very quickly. Narola in fact is a supplier to James Allen which is why they use the Segoma video technology.
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There's a huge difference between a business relationship and your purchase as an end consumer. IDJ was an intermediary not a retailer selling you this stone, as you indicated. So if you were unhappy with the stone, would IDJ or James Allen help you? If they have a huge vendor relationship, what is the better business decision for them - stay neutral, help you or side with Nerola?

There's a risk with purchasing anything this way, not just diamonds. You seem to be discounting this risk.
 
baby monster said:
There's a huge difference between a business relationship and your purchase as an end consumer. IDJ was an intermediary not a retailer selling you this stone, as you indicated. So if you were unhappy with the stone, would IDJ or James Allen help you? If they have a huge vendor relationship, what is the better business decision for them - stay neutral, help you or side with Nerola?

There's a risk with purchasing anything this way, not just diamonds. You seem to be discounting this risk.
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If you want to be pedantic about it legally yes IDJ is the retailer and I am the consumer so I would be entitled to whatever consumer protections that are spelled out under state and federal law. I have a receipt for the diamond that's exactly the same as the receipt you would get from IDJ if you bought a stone from them.

That's a good part of the reason why I consider the money I paid IDJ money well spent. Obviously I would still be entitled to sue Narola if I had bought from them directly instead but suing and collecting from an Indian company is not something I look forward to doing. :D

However given that these are all well established companies dealing with at a minimum thousands of stones I consider the risk of being defrauded by them to be low. Fraud is always a possibility though... For example a jeweler very close to where I live ended up going to jail for fraud: http://m.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/San-Jose-jeweler-suspected-of-fraud-3268582.php
 
The biggest difference with buying this way is that Yekutiel told me there would be no return policy. Now I understand why a return policy would be valuable to a lot of buyers which is one of the reasons I mentioned that I actually think the premiums James Allen and companies like IDJ normally charge are pretty reasonable.
 
HDer said:
The biggest difference with buying this way is that Yekutiel told me there would be no return policy. Now I understand why a return policy would be valuable to a lot of buyers which is one of the reasons I mentioned that I actually think the premiums James Allen and companies like IDJ normally charge are pretty reasonable.
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So we seem to be on the same page then and I don't think this is being pedantic. You are willing to take the risk of no return. Whether the stone just didn't meet your expectations from video/pictures or my example of fraud as the worst case scenario. Again, I'm glad it worked out for you but most US buyers place a large premium on being able to get a refund.
 
HDer said:
First off I'd like to say thank you to the PriceScope community. Many of you have commented and followed my other thread, and I've received a lot of advice, and both encouragement and criticism, but all with the best of intentions.

Recap for those who haven't followed the other thread:
I started out with a goal: find a 2 carat diamond for under 8K. Why 2 carats? Because I talked to my girlfriend about this, and for her, the definition of a "big" diamond was at least 2 carats. Why 8K? Because I wanted to keep the total cost under 10K, and also importantly, I saw some 2 carat diamonds for just under 8K. I think the cheapest was 6 and change.

Turns out, those original diamonds did not meet the approval of the forum members, to put it mildly. So my search continued into the amazing PriceScope price tool. Surprisingly, this wonderful eponymous price comparison tool receives less mention on PS than many vendor sites do. Through this tool, and through the recommendations of another PSer, I found USA Certed Diamonds run by Martin Sheffield. Now, Martin's website is a godsend. Why? Because according to another trade member, Martin literally posts every single diamond on RapNet on his website. So it's essentially a free RapNet subscription, with the prices slightly marked up.

However, I had a problem. Despite several e-mails, web forms, and voicemails, I could not actually reach Martin Sheffield. However, I started noticing that some of the links on his website would go to other websites, including one called Narola Gems. It's on there that I found my perfect diamond. With the help of some other PriceScopers, I found this 2.07 VVS1 L, faint brown diamond: https://segoma.com/v.php?type=view&id=01IQRWVEPP The Idealscope looked like a near hearts and arrows, and my SO liked the video.

Now the problem is that the diamond was in Hong Kong, owned by an Indian company I had never heard of. So I made a couple of phone calls, and got in touch with Yekutiel at IDJ. I gave him an offer: buy me the diamond, and I'll pay you $400 on top of what you pay. He said yes, with the caveat that this was a one off, not covered by their usual warranty, etc. I agreed. It took him a couple of weeks to get the stone, and in the meantime I decided with my SO on a wonderful 3D halo setting from James Allen https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...-edge-pave-diamond-engagement-ring-item-49364 It also helped that James Allen was running a 25% off setting sale at the time. After Yekutiel got the stone, he shipped it to James Allen, and after another excruciating, although expected, 3 week wait, we finally got the ring.

Total cost: $9,707. $8,240 for the diamond. $1,467 (including 100 dollar setting fee + 100 dollar over 7mm fee) for the setting.

Enough essay already. Show us some pictures!

On the window sill:
20171004_081934.jpg

In the shade:
20171007_124255.jpg

In the car:
IMG_20171007_172047.jpg

Full daylight; you can really see the blue fluorescence:
IMG_20171007_180441.jpg

Taken in a underpass:
IMG_20171007_181053.jpg

Full LED lighting from my USB microscope:
S20171007_007.jpg

Much lower LED lighting. Can still see the nice arrows pattern:
S20171007_010.jpg
So is it brown?

Yes, bot that I can tell. Even from the side, it's really hard to tell if any color is coming from the rose gold setting or from the diamond itself.

Would I buy a diamond this way again?

Yes, especially now that I've done it once before. However, I would say that the time investment in learning everything has been very significant.

Could I have bought the diamond for cheaper?

Yes! Easiest thing was that I didn't need a VVS1 by any stretch of the imagination. I could have easily saved 1K or more by finding a VS1/2/SI1. The problem is that well cut L/M VS2/SI1s are, as you can imagine, in high demand, and Narola didn't have a big selection to begin with. After buying the diamond, I got a login to HK, which had a much bigger selection, but unfortunately doesn't use the Segoma/James Allen viewing technology. Even there, it's not easy to find a well cut K/L/M VS2/SI1.

Another way I could have saved a thousand or more is by going with a 1.9 ct stone, but one, most Indian cutters are loathe to cut 1.9s, and two, my SO told me she preferred a 2, just for the mental carats if nothing else.

One other thing I could have done is ordered the diamond directly from India and saved the $400 I paid to IDJ. Now here's the thing: I wasn't comfortable wiring a lot of money overseas to a company I had never heard of. Next time? Maybe. I actually strongly believe that a lot more people will be buying from the likes of Narola and HK in 5-10 years. Their websites are actually great. Instead of having to ask if a stone is eye clean, they'll let you filter by eye clean, by color of inclusion, by hearts and arrows, and a bunch of other things besides. Still, if something goes wrong in shipping or processing, it becomes rather difficult dealing with an overseas company when I'm not in the trade, so I consider the money to IDJ well spent. If a lot of people start buying this route, then maybe IDJ will be willing to do the service for cheaper, and they might even be able to negotiate a small discount from Narola and others like them.

Would I have been willing to pay more for this diamond?

Surprisingly, after knowing what I know now, yes. Based on what I've seen of wholesale prices, I paid a 5% premium on my diamond. The absolute lowest cost PS sellers tack on about a 10% margin on a diamond of similar value. There are others that tack on maybe 15-20%. And then James Allen tacks on 25%, so 2K on my 8K diamond. I'd expect Blue Nile to be around the same as James Allen. So you must be thinking: that seems like a large margin; they must make a lot of money. But the reality is that they don't. Based on how much Blue Nile sold for, I'm guessing they made at most 50 million dollars a year in profit at that time, and to be honest I wouldn't be surprised if the number were closer to 20-30 million. And that's the largest diamond selling website.

Why? Because every thing that we like about the diamond buying experience: the buy back policies, the return policies, the 24/7 customer service, the diamond education and help with selections, the Idealscopes and ASETs, the lifetime warranties, etc. are all large expenses for the retailers. A fantastic buyback/upgrade policy like HPD's could, in my estimation, alone have a value of up to maybe a third of the total cost of the diamond. So for the average consumer, it's absolutely worth it to let the retailers make their limited margin. Now, the nice thing about PriceScope is that there are a lot of consumers here willing to provide the same services for free. :)

I'm sold. How can I start buying a diamond this way?

Well, to quote Sun Tzu: you need to know your enemy and more importantly, know yourself.

First thing to figure out is just exactly where you and your SO's boundaries are in terms of the 4Cs, and the real boundaries, not the ones based on online videos, which can way overexaggerate flaws, and not the ones based on jewelry store lighting, which can make everything look good.

For me, the key was rose gold. Once I knew that rose gold would hide color, I became much more confident searching in the K/L/M territory.

After that, it's about knowing the marketplace. Many people have heard of James Allen and Blue Nile and maybe even some super-ideal retailers, but almost nobody's heard of Narola Gems or HK, or a dozen other Indian cutters and polishers who supply the vast majority of stones people buy. But they're gaining prominence. They're going to the HK Jewelry Fair, and their websites are, like I said, even better for a prosumer than James Allen or Blue Nile.

Conclusion

Thank you everyone for all of your help and advice in this journey. It's been a lot of learning, a lot of fun, and quite frankly a major addiction. I'm probably, after responding to any comments on this thread, going to take a break from diamonds and jewelry, but thanks so much for being such a wonderful and knowledgeable community. Hope I'll get to see some of you in person one day, and let me know if you're in San Jose!
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Nice arrows. :) Do you have any hand shots? :)
 
@HDer congratulation on your finished engagement ring! The ring and the diamond are beautiful and I am glad that you and your SO are satisfied with the end results! The rose gold definitely compliments the lower color of the center diamond to the point of making it almost indistinguishable. Wishing you a happy engagement and a wonderful life together!

As some others have said, we are ecstatic that this process worked out for you, but many (most) consumers greatly value a good return/upgrade policy, so I can't say that I see this process becoming popular, unless some return policies at least can be adopted by the suppliers. I personally have taken advantage 2 times of my upgrade policy and I know that I would be very upset if it is not there :) nonetheless, your creativity and efforts are to be appreciated and you have a great ring story!
 
baby monster said:
So we seem to be on the same page then and I don't think this is being pedantic. You are willing to take the risk of no return. Whether the stone just didn't meet your expectations from video/pictures or my example of fraud as the worst case scenario. Again, I'm glad it worked out for you but most US buyers place a large premium on being able to get a refund.
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Not really a risk of fraud as he is buying through IDJ, if he got an uncerted diamond appeared IDJ would have to answer to it and the product has to be sent as described. The only real risk in this scenario is not liking the product.
 
SimoneDi said:
@HDer congratulation on your finished engagement ring! The ring and the diamond are beautiful and I am glad that you and your SO are satisfied with the end results! The rose gold definitely compliments the lower color of the center diamond to the point of making it almost indistinguishable. Wishing you a happy engagement and a wonderful life together!

As some others have said, we are ecstatic that this process worked out for you, but many (most) consumers greatly value a good return/upgrade policy, so I can't say that I see this process becoming popular, unless some return policies at least can be adopted by the suppliers. I personally have taken advantage 2 times of my upgrade policy and I know that I would be very upset if it is not there :) nonetheless, your creativity and efforts are to be appreciated and you have a great ring story!
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Thank you!

I actually agree with you on the return/upgrade policies. The buyback/upgrade policies that many retailers have can be thought of as a type of insurance, and if you run the math I bet you'll find that some retailers are actually underpricing what is essentially a type of a lifetime insurance policy. It's just a question of whether the customer wants to pay for the insurance up front.

gm89uk said:
Not really a risk of fraud as he is buying through IDJ, if he got an uncerted diamond appeared IDJ would have to answer to it and the product has to be sent as described. The only real risk in this scenario is not liking the product.
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Yes, fraud would still be illegal regardless of a lack of return policy, and to be honest, no return policy in the world offers real protection against fraud.

But I agree that a lot of people would want to see the diamond in person for a few days first before committing. And there's an easy solution to that problem. Get in touch with Martin Sheffield and pay him just 5% more! Well, come to think of it, getting in touch with him might not be that easy. :)
 
Regarding resizing, you can try a temporary solution like ring noodles for now. I like ring noodles because my fingers swell up in size in summer but are a 1/2 size smaller in winter. I'm not going to resize my rings just to account for seasonal fluctuations so I use ring noodles as a non permanent and cheap solution. Could be a temp fix for you while you decide what you want to do in terms of a more permanent solution.

https://ring-guard.com
 
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Congratulations. It's a beautiful stone and a beautiful setting. Glad it all worked out to your advantage. Wishing you many years of happiness. Wow, great research and great way to save money while still having the beautiful ring.
 
Good pics thanks for showing us. Well, instead of having JA resize your ring, you could go back to Joe Escobar and ask about sizing beads placed in the ring so it won't spin/topple over. I have sizing beads and it works for me. It doesn't dig into my fingers and its comfortable. I prefer not shipping my rings back to vendors and have my local jeweler help me with ring resizing. Although it may invalidate the JA warranty..it may be 'safer' or more reasonable to have a local shop help you out. Otherwise it's going to be up to you to package and send your ring to JA and have them do the work. Make sure you insure that ring though and sign delivery!
-C4C
 
Thanks for the update on Hari Krishna @HDer ! I tried to register but they wanted to follow up and verify my information so apparently no access to their database. :( If you are willing to share how you managed to do it that would be great, otherwise no worries.

And yes please on handshots!!!!
 
Oh, and beautiful ring, and great that you were able to make an educated purchase!

I'm in Hong Kong and I've seen Hari Krishna's booth at the big jewelry shows here (they're trade shows but I've been able to get in as a private collector and/or with invitation from an exhibitor). I understand Hari Krishna is a big company from India, they have a big booth at the shows and I understand they are a major player but mostly B2B and not B2C. So your average retail customer will not know them.
 
Alexiszoe said:
Thanks for the update on Hari Krishna @HDer ! I tried to register but they wanted to follow up and verify my information so apparently no access to their database. :( If you are willing to share how you managed to do it that would be great, otherwise no worries.

And yes please on handshots!!!!
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Just wait for them to call/email you. You should get a call from India.

Or if you want just let me know what your search parameters are and I'll do a search for you.
 
Congratulations on your ring, it's lovely. :-)

I found a few stones that were promising during my search, GIA certed from India, that once I found out would be a non refundable purchase, I decided against it. I didn't want to take that risk. You had a lot of confidence to have made that purchase, & thank goodness it turned out in you & your fiance's favour. :sun:
 
o_O Hand shots?!?!? THE SUSPENSE IS KILLER!!!! o_O
 
I personally think it’s a great idea! Thanks for sharing all the information about places you can look up diamonds. I think you got a beautiful diamond and it looks beautiful.

Overall I think that your strategy of compromising on color and a very slight compromise on cut is a great way to get a bigger (huge) stone for your budget (which in real-world terms, isn’t exactly small, but that’s just my opinion from an average person here, it’s plenty generous to me). It sounds like this worked out perfectly for you and your gf, she got the 2 ct shiny diamond of her dreams with a good cut and your hard work paid off! It may not be as supershiny or as superwhite as someone else’s 2 ct way more expensive diamond, but realistically in my life for example, there is no way anyone would ever be putting a bunch of diamond rings next to each other and comparing color or sparkliness, so for the average person who’s not fussed on color/stats, I feel that the way you bought your diamond is perfect!
 
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