32 carat Paraiba Tourmaline -

[gemandjewelrylover]

Hello,

Just wanted to run this past the paraiba experts here. Opinions please...

Data:

This is a 32.31 ct Brazilian, from Rio Grande de Norte mine, Paraiba Tourmaline. My dealer here in Japan bought it in the mid to late 90's, before any of the African mines were found, so he guarantees it to be Brazilian. (He bought lots of Paraibas back before they became very well-known.) It has been sitting in his safe. He said it was heated. Otherwise,it is untreated.

I know it is a bit included, but since large Brazilian Paraibas are rare, that can't be helped. Plus, if it wasn't, it would have a Sotheby's-auction-worthy price! Lol. But the color is pretty good.

How would the experts descibe this - is it slightly or moderately included? I know most of the Brazilian stones are not inclusion-free, but I'm unclear as to how to describe this one, especially because large inclusion-free Brazilian stones may be close to non-existant.

I have uploaded several pictures, and will also upload the certificate in the next batch. The JGGL lab uses the EDXRF machine, so it should be a reliable evaluation. They do not specify provenance on certificates here, as a rule, but I do trust my dealer.

I'd like to hear opinions on this stone. I think a Brazilian stone this big is fairly rare, so I feel lucky to be able to see one. If I buy it, when I get a chance, I'll send it to AGL.

Also, I am unclear on the definition of "gemmy" paraiba - is there an easy definition or dividing line?

Photos below. Thank you for comments and advice!

Ps Excuse the very ugly hand!

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Certificate photos...

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

a couple more photos.

Thank you!

 

[beaujolais]

Spectacular color. I can totally get lost in that, as in a beautiful Caribbean . My only concern is if the inclusions compromise integrity. Someone more knowledgeable than I needs to chime in, though.

 

[ChrisA222]

Love the color and size!

By no means an expert, but I would say it is past moderately included, towards heavily included....

 

[wordie89]

Man! It GLOWS in natural light. Is the priority a clean stone or color? Do the inclusions make it prone to cracking? Sorry, I guess I'm just adding questions.

 

[pandabee]

I don't have any expert advice to add either, but MAN that is one beautifully colored stone!!!! And as a ring?? What a statement piece!

 

[Michael_E]

How would the experts descibe this - is it slightly or moderately included?

That stone is beautiful, dramatically included and should probably never be worn for more than a photo shoot. Check out the prongs on that ring and how thin and narrow they are. The inclusions are such that the setting was designed to just be able to press the prongs down with almost no force imparted to the stone. This means that the setter was very concerned about the stone chipping or breaking during setting. If they are concerned, then you should be concerned. It is very easy to bang into something hard and hardly notice it...though the stone will certainly notice it and may end up in pieces. If you buy it I recommend a good display case and leaving it there.

 

[kenny]

I don't gamble with my money.
Odds are with the house.

I'd insist it gets graded by AGL prior to sale.
Also I'd request AGL try to determine country of origin since this affects price.
I'm not much for trusting any seller's word when a lot of money is at stake ... if I sell it some day the buyer has to trust my trust in my seller.
When big bucks are involved only a grading report from the best lab can get me to open my wallet.

Michael, good point about those small delicate prongs.
This stone may be a bomb ready to explode at any time.

Determining a price seems difficult.
One one hand it's a 32 ct Para with lovely color.
On the other hand it's nearly opaque with inclusions that weaken it.

 

[JewelFreak]

What a gorgeous stone. It does appear to have that glow. Michael's comments are very interesting & worth thought. You said the lab doesn't do origin -- I didn't realize the Paraiba mines had veins even the size of that stone, let alone the rough it must have come from -- I'd definitely want an origin report from AGL before buying. It's a spectacular sight.

--- Laurie

 

[minousbijoux]

Love the color and glow. No where close to gemmy, way too included. I would buy that only if you want the bragging rights to be able to say you have a huge Brazilian Paraiba, but I would not be happy with it as it is WAY over the top inclusion wise. I'd get little pleasure out of it. Please review the Paraiba in this thread: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/forum/colored-stones/cobalt-spinel-now-what-t187436.html']https://www.pricescope.com/forum/colored-stones/cobalt-spinel-now-what-t187436.html[/URL] While LD acknowledges that it is pretty included, it is no where as included as yours and is very pretty.

 

[LD]

I have one very similar to the one you're considering (see below). Mine is highly highly highly included and that's what yours is too. With mine (which I think is just over 3ct) I know the integrity has not been affected by the inclusions BUT a 32ct one I would say that Michael has a very valid point and I would worry about wearing that stone.

You need to (a) definitely get it checked by AGL AND make sure you get an origin report. I'm not convinced that's Brazilian in origin because of its size but it could be and (b) make the sale conditional on a favourable report. I don't know if AGL would discuss the stone with you but I would also be tempted to ask them whether the inclusions do affect the integrity of this particular stone.

From my experience, the inclusions actually make the stone glow dramatically BUT this is not a top quality stone by any means although its size make it highly unusual. I have an 18ct stone and that's the largest that I've seen until yours. The only hesitation I have is that your stone looks incredibly deep. It's facing up very small for a 32ct stone so if you decide it's safe/or you want to remount it you will be very limited as to what you can do. Again, so you can compare, my 18ct has the dimensions of 18.1 x 14.8 x 9.6mm. If you compare that to your stone (which is twice the weight) the dimensions are very similar - yours is 20 x 17 x 12mm.

Paraiba Tourmalines can be very very very clean and when they have glow and neon colour the prices are phenomenal. The pendant in the linked thread above is actually only lightly/moderately included (although I appreciate it doesn't look so in that particular photo) - so you can compare, here is a closer view of it.

The last photo is of a 4ct stone - you can see how clean this is. This is what you really want to see.

Hope these photos help. If the price is right and AGL say the stone won't fall apart then I would definitely get it if you are attracted to it. Stones like this are rare and don't come around often.

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Hello everyone,

Thank you very much for the feedback and eye-opening advice regarding the stone. I realize that it is not a top Paraiba tourmaline, but
as many people said, it does have a good color, and the size and it being unusual are one of the big attractions. I really wouldn't wear it much if at all because I just don't have any place or occasion to wear such a big ring. So if I got it, it would probably be mostly just to admire it and to have an unusually large paraiba tourmaline. I will talk to the jeweler, and see if we can work out a deal on the stone getting an AGL origin report. I would be, and I'm sure my jeweler would be too, very leery of sticking a ring like that in the mail from Japan to the states, so I don't think I'd be able to get it to AGL until I visit the states in person. But I will check with them and see what I can work out.

LD, you said if it were a really good price then get it… In your opinion, what would be the maximum price you would pay for Brazilian stone of this size and quality? If I could have your opinion. (or anyone who cares to speculate)

Oh, and LD, your stones are gorgeous. The pendant and the last loose stone, especially, because they look pretty clean. The olor is great on all of them.

Thank you all!

 

[kenny]

In your opinion, what would be the maximum price you would pay for Brazilian stone of this size and quality?

I'd change the question from "for Brazilian stone" to "for a stone the seller claims is Brazilian".
IMO, an AGL report stating Brazilian origin is as certain as possible so it should drive the price up.
A seller claiming Brazilian origin, with no independent trustworthy report, makes the stone worth MUCH less.
Since so much money is at stake the people your jeweler got it from may have lied, or the people they got it from may have lied.

Without that AGL report the treatment is also undetermined.

I'd call www.malcaamit.com
Ask them what it would cost for a round trip from Japan to AGL in NY.
For value, just tell them the jeweler's asking price.



They specialize in shipping valuable gems, bullion and fine art around the world.
It won't be cheap, but it will be safe.
It's just a phone call and after the call you'll have more info.

If I was seriously considering buying this piece I'd offer to split the cost of shipping and the AGL Prestige report, but not obligate myself to buy, regardless of what the report says.
Also if it comes back with heat only and Brazilian origin the seller may raise the price, so I'd discuss all possible contingencies first before going any further.

 

[minousbijoux]

I do notice that the report that you posted does not recognize the stone as a Paraiba of Brazilian origin. It seems that that would have been crucial to indicate, were they able to do so. The fact that they did not indicate as much makes me believe it may not be Brazilian, but who knows?

 

[JewelFreak]

You trust your jeweler & he's probably very trustworthy -- much more common in Japan than many countries! But it would be good to get all the contingencies Kenny mentioned in writing before starting the process. Protection for both the jeweler and you, to make sure what you've agreed on is clear to you both. Misunderstandings happen easily, especially when a lot of money is involved.

I'm really interested to know what you decide to do!

--- Laurie

 

[chrono]

I am not a Paraiba expert by any means but have seen quite a few of varying quality. First off, I think the origin could play quite a role in this and I would want it verified before considering the stone for purchase and pricing negotiation. I would also want confirmation that it is heat only, and not clarity enhanced in any other way. This stone is also way beyond a bit included; it is very heavily included. It is not a stone that should be worn in a ring as one knock might end with many small bits. Colour is good but not great so that is another thing to consider, not just for pricing but whether you'll be happy with a stone that you can only look at.

 

[LD]

I'm going to be honest and say I don't think this is Brazilian. I think it's more likely to come from Mozambique purely because of the size and the timescales don't rule that out either. Because of the clarity, I don't think it will have a premium being Brazilian (even if it is). So your question should be "how much would you pay for a 32ct Paraiba Tourmaline that is highly included but has a good colour".

The value in this stone is in the size and colour. Having said that, it's also the size and clarity that means it will have limited appeal (as people typically want something they can wear). So the size is both a positive and negative but the clarity is the main issue especially for a collector.

I have no clue how to price this up. What would I pay? Because of the issues and that it would be mainly a "sit in a safe and just come out to play every now and again" I wouldn't pay more than $30,000-40,000 (because of the size/clarity and limited appeal). Having said that I don't like to part with money unless I think I'm getting a deal and I haven't bought one now for over 10 years so I'm not up with current pricing.

Pala have a 6.5ct cabochon for sale - similar colour and inclusions as yours for sale at $9,750:

Electric blue Brazillian paraiba cabachon.
Weight: 6.50 carats
Size: 11.96 x 10 x 6.13 mm
Cut: Cabochon
Enhancements: Oil
Price: $9,750 total
Ask for inventory #20921

What is the asking price of yours?

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Hello again,

Kenny, thank you very much for that information about the shipping company, I will call and find out how much it would cost to send stones to the states, I might be able to just send a batch of them to have them tested., If it's the same price and if there are no customs issues. I will check it out. Thank you so much.

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Hi all,

I really do appreciate all of your input and advice. It really does help.

MB, in Japan, they never specify origin on the certificates, because they are a bit of perfectionists. Japanese customers are extremely picky, and the Japanese companies don't want to ever be mistaken, consequently they never specify origin. My dealer said that especially in the case of Burma rubies, because the borders between Burma and Thailand and countries in that region where rubies come from are so close, sometimes it's a very close call on whether the Ruby came from Burma or just across the border somewhere. So in order to not be mistaken, they never specify where it came from. That's just the way they do things here. So it doesn't really bother me that they declined to specify origin, because all certificates are like that. Japan is a society based on trust, when I bought a used car, there was no test drive beforehand. The car wasn't even running. I had to commit to buy the car based on the information they gave me and looking at it, and then after I bought it they delivered it to me, all fixed up. Same with my scooter. I've been very happy with the car and scooter and haven't had any problems with them. The culture is different, and so therefore so is the buying and selling style in many cases.

Chrono, yes it's true, maybe this stone would be better in a pendent, I might consider having it changed from a ring to a pendant. My jeweler could do that for me, and I'm sure if there were any problem with the prongs or the stone breaking or anything in the process that he would stand behind it. I am sure that my dealer knows his stones and would never misrepresent them. I have an ongoing relationship with him, and asked him if anything ever came back from another lab not as he represented it, would he refund my money and he said yes. And as I said he's been in business for I long time and has scads of regular customers, some of which I run into at his store again and again, so I really don't have any doubt in him. I've read on lots of other posts that Paraiba tourmaline often gets sent to Japan, and I know that's true, because my dealer had quite a lot of it. He also now has some Mozambique and Nigerian pieces and has showed me all of them, and showed me the differences. So I know he knows his stuff. And he said that he bought these pieces long before any of the other mines had ever been discovered. But as I said, if I were to have something tested and it came back not as he represented, he would refund my money. He's unique, even in Japan.

LD, thank you for your guidelines. I know if I tell you the price, everyone will tell me it's a red flag… it happened on a couple of my other posts. But my jeweler is more like a wholesale dealer than retail. He has so much stock which he turns over regularly, and because of the volume, he sells for much better prices than pretty much all other B&M stores and even Internet stores. I'm actually a working girl, with an eye out for good deals that I can get for excellent prices and that have a good chance to appreciate, and he knows this, so he really works with me on prices. So I'm getting while the getting is good, because I feel I am in a unique position to pick up nice stones at much less than retail prices. As another customer of his put it so well, going into his store is like heaven and hell – Heaven because there is so much beauty to look at, and hell because I only have a little money available to spend! LOL

So the price of that ring for me is less than $15,000. Because of that, possibly even if it's not Brazilian, and especially if it is, of which I'm confident, I feel like I really can't lose because of the rarity of a stone that size, even if it is included. Someone said in another post on another Paraiba of mine that that was 10 or 15 years-ago prices, and he acknowledges he gave me a smoking deal as well. He's had the stone for a long time, and that's why he's willing and able to sell it to me at such a good price. The Japan and Germany gemological Association (JGGL) uses state-of-the-art machines, and gives a very detailed report, so I really feel like the report is trustworthy and that if it was treated, they would make comments on it. He said no comments means no treatment. Of course, I would like to have reports that are trusted in the states, and state origin, and will definitely get them from AGL or GIA if and when I decide to sell them, or before, whenever I can manage it. Many of the stones I buy I am holding on to for the future. So it doesn't bother me for them to sit in a box and for me to just admire them occasionally. I picked out a couple rings that I like to wear, but the rest of them are for the future.

So, based on that price, even with heavy inclusions, do you think it's a good buy?
And, if it is indeed Brazilian, and not treated, as I expect the AGL report will verify when I get a chance to get their evaluation, then it might be worth more, Right?

But I will definitely check out Kenny's information and see if it is doable for me to send some stones to AGL to be checked, just for reassurance.

I hope I don't sound naïve, I know the best motto is trust and verify. Which I have done and plan to continue doing. And, as I said, he's been around for a long time, and will stand behind his stones 100%. So I might get it with the stipulation that whenever I get it to AGL, if it comes back not matching what he has told me about it, that he will refund my money. I'm sure he would agree to that, and that he would give me my money back with no problem if it came back different.

Thank you everyone!

 

[minousbijoux]

I'm still puzzled as to why you want it - as far as Brazilian Paraiba is concerned, it is not anything I would hold up as a good example, unless you count size. While it is amazingly large, I do not find it attractive due to the inclusions, which appear to considerably hinder the neon glow that Paraiba is known for.

If you can't wear it due the fragility of so many inclusions, what is your purpose in purchasing it? As an investment alone, I would imagine. I personally would much rather have an excellent but small Brazilian Paraiba specimen or some extremely high quality, "Paraiba-like" copper bearing tourmaline from Africa instead of your stone but that is me. It sounds, however, that you have already made up your mind and will purchase it.

 

[LD]

Hi all,

So, based on that price, even with heavy inclusions, do you think it's a good buy?
And, if it is indeed Brazilian, and not treated, as I expect the AGL report will verify when I get a chance to get their evaluation, then it might be worth more, Right?

Thank you everyone!

No. Please read my post above again. I don't think location will play a part in pricing for this stone. Only the very best Brazilian Paraiba Tourmalines can command a premium over their Mozambique counterparts. Otherwise a good Mozambique stone will outstrip a mediocre Brazilian one each time. The price for this stone would be the same irrespective of locality I would think.

I have no clue why anybody would sell this for $15k. Having said that, if you have the money then it's probably worth getting BUT please don't buy it thinking you're making an investment because a stone like this will be difficult to sell on because of the clarity.

 

[JewelFreak]

GJL, I absolutely understand your description of your jeweler. Over 9 years I spent a couple of months a year in Japan for my job, hardly ever with gaijin, only Japanese, and business is indeed based on trust. If you've dealt with him over a period & you feel he's honest, then he's honest, no doubt at all.

I can also understand his price for that stone -- satisfying & serving your client well is part of your honor as a businessperson & retaining a longterm relationship more important than big immediate profit. I also get why stating origin isn't done there -- if the mine were even a few feet over the border, it's very Japanese to be embarrassed that you gave incorrect info. He sounds like such a treasure, I'd like to hop a flight right now & go shopping with you -- the saving & fun would pay for the ticket!

I'm in agreement with Minou, though. It seems the only advantage to this stone is its (possible) Brazilian origin. The size is more of a detriment, really -- I'd be terrified to wear it in a ring with those inclusions; one little tap against something could turn it to shards, and it's so large that I'd feel like a Zsa Zsa-wannabe, which makes it hard to re-sell if you wished. Possibly as a pendant, but you still have the breakability issue. I'd much rather put similar money toward a smaller, better quality Paraiba that would be wearable & increase in value. You have to love it, though, and if you do, then adopt it -- but with your eyes open. I LOVE being able to see it, though.

--- Laurie

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Hi MB, LD, and Jewelfreak,

Thank you for your posts. There's a festival going on here now, so I've been busy running around enjoying it. Anyway, I am still debating on what to do. Actually, I don't mind the inclusions so much, and the color is very good, so I find it appealing. And of course I find the price very appealing as well. My jeweler also had an extremely neon blue and clean Batalha mine stone that was only a couple carats, but the price of that one was even more than the price of this one. It was definitely gorgeous. That one being very gemmy and an excellent quality stone, do you think that the value of that would appreciate more, even though it was much much smaller? I am just curious. I do understand what you're saying about good colored Mozambique Paraiba rivaling Brazilian Paraiba in beauty and value these days.

Jewelfreak, I'm so glad that you understand what I said about the Japanese culture and how things are different over here. You're completely right in your assessment of how my jeweler works. If you think you will ever make it over here, let me know and I'll try to help you out! LOL.

Oh, and Kenny by the way, I did call that company and ask them about their services. They said it would be about $500 on up --one way --to send a handful of stones/rings so that would be about $1000 plus customs duties possibly. Quite pricey. I think a plane ticket to the states might be only a little bit more, and I could see friends and have fun while I was at it, LOL. But I do appreciate the information and it's good to know that there is such a service, if I ever need it.

Thank you again for all of your information!

 

[chrono]

There is no doubt that the smaller, extremely neon and clean Brazilian Paraiba will appreciate in value quicker than the larger included one you are considering.

 

[minousbijoux]

There is no doubt that the smaller, extremely neon and clean Brazilian Paraiba will appreciate in value quicker than the larger included one you are considering.

Absolutely +1

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Thank you for your posts, Chrono and MB, and everyone else!

Alas, the small, clean Paraiba has already been sold.

I appreciate everyone's advice and comments!

 

[LD]

Interestingly, I've just found a 22ct stone with better colour than the one you've posted and less inclusions for $14k. So, $15k for the big stone you posted is probably correct. I'm surpised but guess the size and very included clarity is the determining factor for the stone. Hope that helps.

 

[Lovelybluekrystal]

This is amethystguy aka barrett posting on my girls account

I believe this is Brazilian and I believe the color is very very good but the camera can't capture the true nature of the stone and it's hue

reminds me of this color from an old brazilian i had

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Hi, LD, a 22 carat Brazilian stone? Cool! Do you have any pictures? Of course, I'd love to see it if you do. So there are some out there! Good to know the price is in the ballpark of what it should be.

Amethystguy, that is a very beautiful piece of rough, in the picture the color looks pretty good so I'm sure it looks even better in real life. Yummy!