5.9 HCA - Crazy to buy?

[distracts]

Sorry for the threadjack (not my intention), but just wondering about the previous posters link to the spread of the GIA "EX" cut and deepness, etc. Would the Spread of the Excellent cut be narrowed some if the stone came in with a good HCA (say, under 2) and a SARIN report of AGS0 (ideal) proportions, and Med-Slightly Thick girdle? Or is it possible a diamond such as this could still really have a VG cut?

Thanks! (and, sorry again for asking in someone else's thread)

AGS and GIA have different cut standards. I believe there are some AGS0 stones that fall outside of the GIA EX category, even though AGS0 is considered (at least on this forum) to be more stringent. Is that what you're asking? I know that GIA penalizes brillianteering more than AGS does, for instance.

 

[mdot]

I think so, I'm overwhelmed with information that I'm not sure what I'm asking!

I've just heard so much about the large spread in GIA EX cuts, was wondering if any of the factors I listed would increase the chances that the EX cut should be (and actually is) and EX cut, rather than a potential VG that made it into the EX grade. I think by you saying "a few" leads me to believe that if it received an AGS0 and GIA EX that it is more likely that it is actually an excellent cut.

To the OP: If both sparkle in person and one is cheaper (and has a point 0.7 HCA), I would personally go with the 0.7 diamond.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi
Have you heard about this "large spread" in GIA EX cut grade diamonds anyplace but here on ps?
It's simply not a widely held belief by pretty much all the trade
Giving people the impression that GIA is grading poorly cut stones EX is misleading
By all means- buy a stone graded by AGSL or a low scoring HCA GIA EX if it suits you
But consumers being told stones graded EX are considered very well cut are being told the truth

 

[Gypsy]

You hear all sorts of things out in the trade. We've heard all kinds of lies come out of the mouths of people wanting to make/retain a sale. What's important is looking at the motives of the people who are telling you things.

We have no motives. Don't get paid, don't get commissions, kickbacks, discounts or anything else for our recommendations.

Our goal is to ensure education and to promote knowledgable positive win/win purchases so that people can feel good about spending a boat load of money.

Why would a vendor selling a wonky GIA Ex (and I had a thread that showed this, I just can't find it) shoot themselves in the foot and say... "you know, this isn't a good diamond. I know you think GIA Ex is great, but really it's not perfect and here's why." It takes a rare vendor, and unfortunately most of the ones out there are more inclined just to say :GIA Ex is great. Look no further... will that be cash or credit?

 

[athenaworth]

You hear all sorts of things out in the trade. We've heard all kinds of lies come out of the mouths of people wanting to make/retain a sale. What's important is looking at the motives of the people who are telling you things.

We have no motives. Don't get paid, don't get commissions, kickbacks, discounts or anything else for our recommendations.

Our goal is to ensure education and to promote knowledgable positive win/win purchases so that people can feel good about spending a boat load of money.

Why would a vendor selling a wonky GIA Ex (and I had a thread that showed this, I just can't find it) shoot themselves in the foot and say... "you know, this isn't a good diamond. I know you think GIA Ex is great, but really it's not perfect and here's why." It takes a rare vendor, and unfortunately most of the ones out there are more inclined just to say :GIA Ex is great. Look no further... will that be cash or credit?

Well said, Gypsy. PS is supposed to be a safe place for education and advice free from vendor pressures and intimidation. When you start feeling that from any trade members, just try to remember that they probably have their own best interests at heart.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Hi
Have you heard about this "large spread" in GIA EX cut grade diamonds anyplace but here on ps?
It's simply not a widely held belief by pretty much all the trade
Giving people the impression that GIA is grading poorly cut stones EX is misleading
By all means- buy a stone graded by AGSL or a low scoring HCA GIA EX if it suits you
But consumers being told stones graded EX are considered very well cut are being told the truth

i don't see any reasons not buy a stone that falls inside both GIA EX cut and AGS 0 cut box.

 

[Gypsy]

Here are some case in point links to diamonds with GIA Ex grades that are underwelming. And also one AGS0. THIS is why we encourage using idealscopes for rounds.


Who needs the HCA, images of the diamonds, and idealscopes! All I need is a GIA Excellent cut, and nothing else. http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-SI1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1384909.asphttp://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/E-VS1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1491758.asp ... http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-SI2-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1414633.asp ... http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/E-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1407485.asp ... http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-VS1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1334538.asp

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/D-IF-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1429061.asp It's a D IF GIA Ex! IT MUST BE GORGEOUS. http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/D-IF-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1451142.asp



AND... before we get accused of being anti-GIA...here's an AGS 0 that PROVES you still need to do you research. http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/D-VVS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1371917.asp


ETA: In case you are wondering the images SHOULD look closer to this image: http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1425642.asp ( a GIA Ex that scores well on the HCA and is predicted to have a good idealscope image).

 

[distracts]

was wondering if any of the factors I listed would increase the chances that the EX cut should be (and actually is) and EX cut, rather than a potential VG that made it into the EX grade

Well, a VG cut by GIA standards wouldn't get an EX grade simply because that's not the way grading works. If GIA gives it an EX, then it is a GIA excellent, no matter how excellent anyone else thinks it is. GIA and AGS have different criteria for their top cut category. Which one is acceptable to you is, in an ideal world, a matter of personal choice, but most people simply don't look at enough diamonds in those two categories to form an educated opinion on that. In my opinion, a tool like the ASET that is easy to learn to use and interpret is a pretty unbiased way of going about selecting a diamond that bypasses vagaries of the cut grade, which encompasses many diamonds, and just shows you the actual diamond you're interested in. Buuuuuut I personally would not be comfortable buying EITHER a GIA EX or an AGS000 without seeing an actual image and Idealscope or ASET of the diamond. But I've also been browsing PS for two years and have become very picky. I will say that for the average, uneducated consumer, GIA EX or AGS0 - ANY of either of those - would be great. They ARE above-average diamonds - that is what the very category is. But just because they're above average doesn't mean they're perfect, and PSers are after perfection (and we think everyone should be if they are going to drop a chunk of change on a sparkly). And the "average" diamond is kind of really crappy, so being above average can have "Are you Smarter than a Fifth Grader?" tones.

 

[mdot]

Sorry guys/gals, I think when I said "larger spread" that may be a diamond term or some sort! I just meant I've heard it's easier to get a GIA EX than it is to get an AGS Ideal, thereby a larger "spread", or range, of diamonds.

My diamond pictures (ASET, idealscope, and actual) can be found here: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/hoping-for-some-opinions.182541/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/hoping-for-some-opinions.182541/[/URL] . I was just trying to learn about the GIA EX cut, because a GIA cert appraiser gave my stone a VG grade. All this research it making me hope it's actually a Triple EX diamond, but nonetheless it looks beautiful in person!

Sorry to threadjack, I appreciate all I've learned from the community (and in this thread!). Don't know what I would have done with all your knowledge.

 

[chrono]

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-SI1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1384909.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/E-VS1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1491758.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-SI2-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1414633.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/E-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1407485.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-VS1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1334538.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/D-IF-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1429061.asp
It's a D IF GIA Ex! IT MUST BE GORGEOUS. http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/D-IF-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1451142.asp

AND... before we get accused of being anti-GIA...here's an AGS 0 that PROVES you still need to do you research. http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/D-VVS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1371917.asp

ETA: In case you are wondering the images SHOULD look closer to this image:
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1425642.asp
( a GIA Ex that scores well on the HCA and is predicted to have a good idealscope image).

Just cleaning up the links because it looks confusing on my monitor, plus the first one was joined to the second and ended up not opening properly for me.

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI all,
Interesting discussion.
Distracts- you make excellent points- especially in the context of this discussion.
I hope you won't mind me using some to help describe the "disconnect" I see.
I do believe you - and other consumers here- can reliably pick extremely well cut diamonds using ASET/IS/HCA
Logic: ASET identifies aspects of optical symmetry that allow us to choose diamonds fairly reliably.
This makes sense, an there's science behind it.
Disconnect: GIA grants EX cut grade to stones that do not possess crisp H&A in IS/ASET- and may score low on HCA.
What gives?
The reality is that certain observers will prefer the look that a larger table, less organized pattern creates. This will also include GIA EX cut grade stones that get "dinged" by HCA
GIA's EX cut grade incorporates this- and I personally don't see anything evil or underhanded about it.
I stand by my statements above- I've never seen a GIA EX cut grade diamond that has cut "problems"
Did I love the make of every GIA EX cut grade I've seen?
No.
But that does not mean that I could accurately term them "poorly cut" or having "cut problems" as a professional diamond grader.

If we are shopping online, we can again go back to the logic of ASET/IS- as it seems to present a more balanced view photographically than the average diamond photo published on a website.
The "disconnect" is trying to be able to judge a diamond from a single photo for stones that will produce poor reflector images, or low HCA.
I can tell you from experience, that different types of makes, which produce different ASET results will react differently to light.
The ASET is telling us that.
So, if we set up a camera and photographic system specifically designed to showcase the H&A type of look, it may ( does) put other type of GIA EX cut grade stones at a horrible disadvantage.
Bottom line, no one can accurately say a diamond has cut problems based on a single photo.
A diamond that may look bad in that setup may be awesome IRL

 

[mdot]

Great info - thanks!

The diamond I have looks brilliant IRL, but then again I've seen very, very few diamonds. But, it does sparkle and shine, so I think I'm happy with it. I posted a link in my above post that shows the IS/ASET images of my diamond (maybe you could share your opinion on those images? . I guess I was just a little taken aback that the appraiser said it was a VG cut, opposed to an excellent (which I understand is only one grade, fine), so I was thinking maybe my EX diamond isn't really an EX, but I trust that GIA has two or more graders who must agree on a grade. So, I'm happy!

Thanks again for all of the knowledge.

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI mdot,
All due respect to all, I'd entirely ignore an appraisers call of downgrading a GIA EX cut grade. The cut grade is based on an entire set of metrics as opposed to a grader's opinion.
It IS an EX cut grade, Period No matter what anyone says.
Love and enjoy your diamond girl!

 

[Gypsy]

HI mdot,
All due respect to all, I'd entirely ignore an appraisers call of downgrading a GIA EX cut grade. The cut grade is based on an entire set of metrics as opposed to a grader's opinion.
It IS an EX cut grade, Period No matter what anyone says.
Love and enjoy your diamond girl!

Finally, something I can agree with.

Appraisers have no credentialing requirements. And saying someone is a GIA graduate is like saying that someone is a Harvard graduate. There are good ones and bad ones.

 

[mdot]

Thank you very much for the reassurance, both of you. I appreciate it.

It's a beautiful stone, in my opinion, so I'm happy with it. I just enjoy peoples opinions who are more learned than I in the field of diamonds. My fiance-to-be will love the stone, I'm sure.

 

[ChrisES]

With apologies for bringing up the first part of this thread, and my personal favorite PS fight (David vs. HCA) I will take this opportunity to rant a bit about both the issue and people's behavior around it.

I think the HCA score, alone, is too opaque a measure. I too like some stones with higher HCA scores and in fact purchased my fiancee a 3.6. However, I did a lot of reading about the HCA and determined that the majority (2 points) of the penalty that stone received was for table size.

(I recall there being a page where Garry explained the equation behind the HCA but I can't seem to find it again - did he take it down????)

My point is multi-faceted. First, I agree with David that higher scoring stones can look good (and I speak as somehow who has handled maybe a dozen different round brilliants, whereas many posters here have handled hundreds and vendors thousands) BUT I would be concerned about a 5.9...AFAIK you can't get that big a penalty from any one factor (unless maybe it is horribly horribly out of line?).

Second, and more importantly, there can be a disconnect on this forum between consumers, especially novices, and industry insiders who have been posting here for years. I think that most people come here looking for basic advice along the lines of how can I be sure my diamond will look good and how can I be sure I'm not ripped off? I think there's a very strong consensus that the best advice to give is to buy a AGS 0 or GIA Ex stone that scores under 2.0 on the HCA and that has a good IS. And I think this is a thread where that is applicable. The OP is considering higher scoring stones and while the 5.9 *could* be as good (or better!) the lower scoring stones are safer bets, period. There are a lot of diamonds out there, so why not play the numbers game in your favor, rather than bet against it? If the OP wants to get an IS of the 5.9 and post it here so we can talk about *that* diamond and not higher scoring stones *in general* then by all means it would be worthwhile.

I do understand David's frustration, insofar as the advice "never buy higher than a 2.0" is, in my mind, wrong. At the same time, we're trying to help people navigate an already confusing and emotional shopping process. To that end, I think picking fights with each other, especially in RockyTalky, is unhelpful. I think Gypsy's link to earlier incarnations of the debate was excellent, in part because (if I'm thinking of the same threads) I think David's posts there were eloquent and persuasive. At the same time, I think David's posts in this thread are a little more vehement and distracting than some of his posts on the same subject in the past.

Finally, I think veiled attacks by Kenny and others insinuating that David should be distrusted because dealers who bash cut quality tools are self-interested are both ugly and hypocritical. The diamond industry is totally driven by consumer taste and willingness to pay for, let's be honest, hunks of carbon. I could just as easily say that dealers who PROMOTE cut quality tools are self-interested because they are paying a premium for those stones and trying to market them to consumers also willing to pay a premium for those stones.

In short, can't we all just get along? I'm not saying we all need to agree - PS is so great in equal parts because of the depth of knowledge and variety of opinions present. But I think civility is very very important, and I think this tread is lacking in it.

Thanks for reading.
/rant

 

[Rockdiamond]

Incredibly perceptive post Chris.
Thank you.

About high scoring HCA stones- how about this concept: If a cutter is aiming for the type of "super ideal" look we see in stones scoring below 2 and the stone comes out to a 3, it sounds like a deficit.
But what if the cutter has different goals?
This is not about "wonk" it's about scintillation versus contrast .
The way a high crown smaller table handles light produces a different type of light performance compared to a slightly larger table lower crown.
What if a stone that scores 5 is aiming for that type of look- successfully.
I know the stone I referred to- given to my wife- and scoring about 5 ( IIRC) on HCA- that's the type of "60/60" look.
Let's remember that a person's tastes are formed throughout life.
My preferences were indeed shaped at Harry Winston where I was taught to grade diamonds at 19 years old.
I can see the amazing beauty in a "Super Ideal"- I understand the tools, and what they signify.

But when the trend of smaller tables started to overtake what was formerly the goal of the world's best cutters of round diamonds (60/60), I was a bit saddened- something is lost if all cutters take the same direction. And I happen to also see the beauty in a less organized, less patterned EX Cut Grade RBC.

What my goal in showing diamonds to people is, is to find out where their taste falls.
Lets face, it, super ideal costs more- so blindly suggesting that's the right way to go seems a disadvantage to consumers who don't want to spend the most- especially if they prefer the type of look I'm talking about- an EX cut grade that can be purchased for a lower price than a "Super Ideal".

About the other: Unfortunately we are at a point where the forum is just about bereft of alternative viewpoints.
Kenny put up a thread about some people that wanted to boycott JCP because they hired Ellen.
Do you really believe that someone with an opposing viewpoint would dare to get involved?
Its hard to imagine the position someone could take against Ellen- but the point is, people expressing strong and oft posted opinions with 30,000 posts may have the effect of intimidating others.


At this point, open discussion of vendors is pretty much off the table- IF the vendor is defended by people with 30,000 posts.
I agree- everyone deserves to be treated with respect who posts here.
But unfortunately the trend is not that way.