A couple questions about a D/VVS1/2 Carat/ EGL diamond

[miketg]

Hello, I have the following questions about a ROUND diamond with the following stats:

Cut: Very Good
Carat: 2 Carat
Color: D
Clarity: VVS1

Stone treatment: Not enhanced


Certificate is from EGL
Being bought from India


Now my questions are:

-How reputable is EGL?
-How accurate are they with their grading and appraisals?
-How close to the EGL appraisal value would do you think this stone is?
-How much do you think its worth?
-With the stats I've given, and having them based on EGL ratings, what do you think they would ACTUALLY be.

I've heard some bad things on EGL and that worries me a bit, if I make this purchase, and would like to get a new certificate and appraisal, how much would that cost also?


Thank you very much!

 

[04diamond<3]

Well, if GIA graded it it might come back as an F VVS2 or VS1. EGL can be a great purchase, I have an EGL stone and they actually graded on the mark ( I had it tested by GIA). I would send your stone to GIA to get it certified, and I think it costs $200+, you'd have to check their site for current rates www.gia.edu . Have you seen the stone? With it being a VG cut, I'd want to see pictures and/or a video.

 

[SB621]

You will find that the majority of PS members do not like EGL and will tell you not to buy it. For me I have an EGL graded diamond and have no issues with it. It scored under a 2 on HCA and after I took it to 3, yes three, GIA Gemologist they all agreed on colore. Clarity it was a split between VS1 and SI1. Regardless I love my diamond and it looks fabulous.

So for a short answer. EGL USA is more reputable then EGL Israel. They are both considered a soft grading. Don't bother with appraisals they are crap usually and so is their pricing. For a GIA certificate it is around $100 a carat I believe. You can make your purchased contigent on them getting a GIA report if you want. I wouldnt' know how much it is worth becasue you didn't post enough information. There is so much more to a diamond pricing then carat and color. You would need to post the actual report and let us run the numbers then compare to what is out there on the market via a serach. It will take less then 5 minutes and you can do it too.

Also you didnt' mention the shape. EGL is more accepted for old cuts vs modern. So if this is an old cut I wouldnt' worry about getting a GIA report.

 

[Christina...]

Which EGL graded the diamond? It may be one or two color and/or clarity grades off but if may also be off by five or more. That's the problem with EGL there is no way to know for sure unless you have a reputable lab (GIA/AGS) grade the stone or have it independently appraised by an appraiser that has NO interest in the stone or the person that sold it to you. The other huge problem with EGL is that their cut standard is not the same as GIA or AGS. EGL allows for many more stones to receive it's EX cut grade, whereas GIA AGS have much stricter standards.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Hello, I have the following questions about a diamond with the following stats:

Cut: Very Good, Round
Carat: 2 Carat
Color: D-E
Clarity: VVS1



Thank you very much!

no such grade... is the stone already mounted?

 

[miketg]

sorry its a D, wasn't sure whether it was D or E, but quite positive its a D. And yes, mounted already, but ill be taking it out and putting into a new setting


btw, its a stone coming from india, so im not sure if that changes things much

 

[John P]

Cut: Very Good, Round

Regardless of color, clarity or finish, I consider VG cut from this lab a dour indicator. The most likely causes are a table >63%, a pavilion angle average >41.5 degrees, or both. There is a possibility that the table and angles are okay, but paired with a girdle graded "thick" which reduces the spread of the diamond.

 

[Niel]

The thing I always thought about EGL was, though they were graded softer, the prices reflect that.

And i mean say its off by 2 shades, if its priced like an F VS2, wouldnt it still be a good buy?

My only concern is the VG cut grading. That would turn me off without seeing an idealscope.

 

[miketg]

Which EGL graded the diamond? It may be one or two color and/or clarity grades off but if may also be off by five or more. That's the problem with EGL there is no way to know for sure unless you have a reputable lab (GIA/AGS) grade the stone or have it independently appraised by an appraiser that has NO interest in the stone or the person that sold it to you. The other huge problem with EGL is that their cut standard is not the same as GIA or AGS. EGL allows for many more stones to receive it's EX cut grade, whereas GIA AGS have much stricter standards.

Not entirely sure
and god, even 5 grades off? jesus

 

[John P]

The thing I always thought about EGL was, though they were graded softer, the prices reflect that.

While this is right in theory it's impossible to say what's fair in practice, since we're talking about a sliding scale.

Example: Imagine three 1.00 carat diamonds.

> Diamond A received EGL D VS2 Ideal - offered for sale at the same price as a GIA F VS2 EX.
> Diamond B received EGL E VS2 Ideal - offered for sale at the same price as a GIA G VS2 EX.
> Diamond C received EGL F VS1 Ideal - offered for sale at the same price as a GIA H VS2 EX.

The appearance, above, is that pricing softens along with the relative grades. BUT, if all three EGL diamonds were subsequently graded H VS2 EX at GIA (or by a reputable appraiser) the people who bought diamonds A and B might have a different opinion about how well they did using this theory.

My only concern is the VG cut grading. That would turn me off without seeing an idealscope.

Another possibility I failed to mention: The proportions could be okay but the depth may be >63%. That's not as indicting as crazy angles because the performance might not be so bad, but increased depth will make it face up small for the weight., just as extra weight in the girdle would.

 

[miketg]

This is all very helpful, thank you everyone

My dilemma is this. It is basically a blind buy
It would appear i'd be getting it cheap at around $8000-$10000, but would you do it based on the fact that its EGL graded?
Realistically, even if the grading was off quite a bit by GIA standards, would this still be worth the purchase?

 

[John P]

Here's an example of what a "VG" cut grade can imply... I've attached report data from a 2.01 EGL "Very Good" cut. The proportions are promising in terms of performance: 55T 40.7PA 35.4CA. By the numbers it will be a nice fiery stone if it has complimentary minor faceting, proper indexing and decent cut precision.

The drawback is that it will never look like a 2 carater. Why? Because the planner paired a somewhat high crown with a girdle that pushes the boundaries of STK and TK in order to preserve "extra" weight in the body of the stone and drive it into a higher value category.

So while it weighs 2.01 carats it finished with an average girdle diameter of only 7.92mm. It could face up like a beautiful 1.80 carat stones, but it will never be in the same visual size-appearance class as well cut 2.00 carat diamonds.

 

[miketg]

^ Thank you. Incredibly helpful!

Im not too worried about the cut and how big it faces up, as long as it's attractive and i can say, "oh sweetheart, its 2 carats"

Im more so curious on whether, even as a blind buy, based on those stats, its worth the purchase on a $8000-$10000 budget, which realistically, is very cheap for a stone of those ratings i do believe? So I'm willing to think its probably going to be graded lower by GIA standards, but even if the grading is dropped quite a bit, would it still be worth it?

 

[John P]

^ Thank you. Incredibly helpful!

Im not too worried about the cut and how big it faces up, as long as it's attractive and i can say, "oh sweetheart, its 2 carats"

Im more so curious on whether, even as a blind buy, based on those stats, its worth the purchase on a $8000-$10000 budget, which realistically, is very cheap for a stone of those ratings i do believe? So I'm willing to think its probably going to be graded lower by GIA standards, but even if the grading is dropped quite a bit, would it still be worth it?

You're welcome. That's what we're here for.

At that pricing either you're winning the lottery or something is off here. Without revealing any information that would compromise your source, can you indicate your relationship with and knowledge of the seller? Are you sure that the diamond being offered is the one you have the grading-report for (do you have the grading report)? Has the seller provided a rational reason for offering that price?

 

[miketg]

^ Thank you. Incredibly helpful!

Im not too worried about the cut and how big it faces up, as long as it's attractive and i can say, "oh sweetheart, its 2 carats"

Im more so curious on whether, even as a blind buy, based on those stats, its worth the purchase on a $8000-$10000 budget, which realistically, is very cheap for a stone of those ratings i do believe? So I'm willing to think its probably going to be graded lower by GIA standards, but even if the grading is dropped quite a bit, would it still be worth it?

You're welcome. That's what we're here for.

At that pricing either you're winning the lottery or something is off here. Without revealing any information that would compromise your source, can you indicate your relationship with and knowledge of the seller? Are you sure that the diamond being offered is the one you have the grading-report for (do you have the grading report)? Has the seller provided a rational reason for offering that price?

Long time friend, its already mounted, but I'm basically buy it for the stone. They have the certificate and everything. They said they bought it online from a retailer residing in India, and he was quite astonished with the stone's price himself. Anyways, he's been sitting on the ring for a while (failed relationship ), and I'm in the midst of getting engaged. He's willing to part with it at a negotiable price, however I'm not too savvy on these things, but i've seen the report and everything is as I stated in my original post. i don't remember the quoted price, but it was somewhere between 20000-29999 thousand.

I don't exactly want to be haggling him to get a new certification or appraisal. But ill try and get a copy for you guys too see, and pictures of the ring soon

edit: Everything I'm seeing as far as price quotes go show that this diamond should probably still be appraised at more than the range I mentioned, the comparisons stones I'm seeing though are all certified by more reputable labs. Is this still realistic for a diamond certified by EGL?

 

[Sparklelu]

^ Thank you. Incredibly helpful!

Im not too worried about the cut and how big it faces up, as long as it's attractive and i can say, "oh sweetheart, its 2 carats"

Im more so curious on whether, even as a blind buy, based on those stats, its worth the purchase on a $8000-$10000 budget, which realistically, is very cheap for a stone of those ratings i do believe? So I'm willing to think its probably going to be graded lower by GIA standards, but even if the grading is dropped quite a bit, would it still be worth it?

On a purchase as important as an engagement ring do you really only want it to be "attractive""? And just because you can say its 2 cts if it is cut badly it WON'T BE attractive and it could face up way smaller than a 2 ct and she and others who look at it won't believe you.
If you hang around here long enough to get advice from the experts, you will hear over and over Cut is King. A well cut 1.8 will look better and bigger than a crappy cut 2ct stone.
If you could get numbers we can get a better idea of what it really could look like.
And it seems to be a friend of a friend deal, and history has shown they don't always work out well

 

[John P]

Long time friend, its already mounted, but I'm basically buy it for the stone. They have the certificate and everything. They said they bought it online from a retailer residing in India, and he was quite astonished with the stone's price himself. Anyways, he's been sitting on the ring for a while (failed relationship ), and I'm in the midst of getting engaged. He's willing to part with it at a negotiable price, however I'm not too savvy on these things, but i've seen the report and everything is as I stated in my original post. i don't remember the quoted price, but it was somewhere between 20000-29999 thousand.

I don't exactly want to be haggling him to get a new certification or appraisal. But ill try and get a copy for you guys too see, and pictures of the ring soon

I am sorry to hear about his failed relationship. It may turn out to be your gain, which could also make your friend glad.

It sounds like he has the old grading report / certificate. If you can post a scan, or give us the proportions data (measurements in mm, table, depth, crown height, pavilion depth, girdle details etc.) we can predict the size appearance and general performance category.

If you do decide to go forward I suggest that you get a true independent appraiser involved, even if you do it from your side only.

Why? First, to verify that you're getting the deal you think you are. You're not buying from an established dealer and - unless your friend is a gemologist - you can't be sure he actually received the correct diamond in the first place during his Indian deal. Second, an appraiser can make note of any wear or damage that has occurred since the original report was issued. Finally, this will provide you with current up-to-date documentation to submit for insurance purposes. An appraiser of the caliber I'm suggesting can also advise you on whether sending the diamond in for a new report would be to your advantage - although I understand you may be under time pressure and/or this may not matter to you.

If you're in the $8000-10,000 range and the data is anywhere close such an appraisal will be pocket-change compared to how much you are saving. If you hire the right appraiser it will also be fun and educational. Most of all it will protect both you and your friend from any unpleasant surprises later. Too many friendships have been lost over sales where a misunderstanding occurred. This sale is clearly based more on your personal relationship than on the diamond itself. The minimal cost to verify such an important purchase and get updated documents is a good investment.

One more thought: If this becomes the path you choose, be sure your future intended is cool with the second-hand situation. Or if you're not disclosing that piece of information make sure your friend knows you're keeping it mum. Step wisely.

Interested to hear how this progresses.

 

[justginger]

Long time friend, its already mounted, but I'm basically buy it for the stone. They have the certificate and everything. They said they bought it online from a retailer residing in India, and he was quite astonished with the stone's price himself. Anyways, he's been sitting on the ring for a while (failed relationship ), and I'm in the midst of getting engaged. He's willing to part with it at a negotiable price, however I'm not too savvy on these things, but i've seen the report and everything is as I stated in my original post. i don't remember the quoted price, but it was somewhere between 20000-29999 thousand.

I don't exactly want to be haggling him to get a new certification or appraisal. But ill try and get a copy for you guys too see, and pictures of the ring soon

I am sorry to hear about his failed relationship. It may turn out to be your gain, which could also make your friend glad.

It sounds like he has the old grading report / certificate. If you can post a scan, or give us the proportions data (measurements in mm, table, depth, crown height, pavilion depth, girdle details etc.) we can predict the size appearance and general performance category.

If you do decide to go forward I suggest that you get a true independent appraiser involved, even if you do it from your side only.

Why? First, to verify that you're getting the deal you think you are. You're not buying from an established dealer and - unless your friend is a gemologist - you can't be sure he actually received the correct diamond in the first place during his Indian deal. Second, an appraiser can make note of any wear or damage that has occurred since the original report was issued. Finally, this will provide you with current up-to-date documentation to submit for insurance purposes. An appraiser of the caliber I'm suggesting can also advise you on whether sending the diamond in for a new report would be to your advantage - although I understand you may be under time pressure and/or this may not matter to you.

If you're in the $8000-10,000 range and the data is anywhere close such an appraisal will be pocket-change compared to how much you are saving. If you hire the right appraiser it will also be fun and educational. Most of all it will protect both you and your friend from any unpleasant surprises later. Too many friendships have been lost over sales where a misunderstanding occurred. This sale is clearly based more on your personal relationship than on the diamond itself. The minimal cost to verify such an important purchase and get updated documents is a good investment.

One more thought: If this becomes the path you choose, be sure your future intended is cool with the second-hand situation. Or if you're not disclosing that piece of information make sure your friend knows you're keeping it mum. Step wisely.

Interested to hear how this progresses.

Excellent advice from John!

 

[Dancing Fire]

here's a tip for ya...a well cut 2ct stone should be close to 8.10 mm in diameter.

 

[denverappraiser]

Im more so curious on whether, even as a blind buy, based on those stats, its worth the purchase on a $8000-$10000 budget, which realistically, is very cheap for a stone of those ratings i do believe?

This, I think, is the heart of the question. Is it? Just to review, the stats are:
EGL India
2.00/D/VVS1
As far as I can tell, no further information has been provided but maybe I'm just missing it in the above posts. That leaves a pretty big range of possibilities but let’s go with those.

What would GIA call it? No clue, but you can bet it’s not 2.00/D/VVS1, even with a terrible cut. *IF* it were that, there’s no way it would have been sold with EGL-I papers. They would get a GIA pedigree for about $200 and triple the price. Wouldn’t you? We also know it’s not an E/VVS2 or even a G/VS2 for similar reasons. Not only might it be 5 grades different, I fully expect it. By the way, submitting a stone to GIA, HRD, IGI or a list of other labs from India is easy peasy for anyone even vaguely connected to the industry, and any cutter of 2 carat stones is DEEP in the industry. It didn't come out of the ground or off the cutting wheel with that pedigree and it’s not that they couldn’t get better paperwork. They chose not to. Why do you suppose they did that?

I don't exactly want to be haggling him to get a new certification or appraisal

Why in the world not? You KNOW that what’s providing in terms of grading is wrong, and probably wrong by a serious margin. HE knows this too. The only debate seems to be how much wrong, and the issue affects the price by tens of thousands of dollars. Even if you don’t do a deal, he needs to know what he actually has. If it’s as good as he says it is, he stands to make a pile more money and if it’s worse than we’re guessing he’s screwing a friend. Frankly, I’m not seeing the downside. Not only does it protect your interests, it protects his.

 

[LibbyLA]

Yes, you can say that it weighs 2 carats, but it looks like a 1.8 ct. diamond. You see the size, you don't see the weight.

liz

 

[Niel]

if you just want to say you have a 2 ct stone I would look for something other than a round. some searching you could probably get an eye clean marquise for about that price, and it would face up huge too. Probably even bigger if you could find one second hand. but if you want a round brilliant and you want it to be lovely and attractive like you said cut is important

 

[diamonds-are-friends]

not a good idea to take the risks knowing that the odds are stacked against your favor.