A tragic story

[smooleys]

I appreciate your input, but I think do you not have a grasp on the seriousness of the issue here. Religion is not like going to the store to by a pair of pants. You treat a baptism as lightly as that. I don''t know your background, but it sounds as if you either are not very religious or don''t care. That is just not the case with me or her. Yes, I am a family man. We both have had many, many discussions about families, kids, etc. So, to say that we didn''t talk or have any foresight is not an accurate statement. We both want children, so it''s not a matter of if...as you put it. As far as the "inflexibility" you mention, maybe it''s me, but I don''t see how you can have a baptism and then raise that same child Jewish. They are in conflict. Plus, it''s just not the baptism. She will feel like an outsider, which is understandable and who wants that. We got to this point because she had a change of heart about how important religion is to her and what kind of role she wants it to have in her and her children''s life. I have similar feelings, however the two don''t mix very well which is why we are where we are. It''s not for lack of being "flexible."

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 10/20/2008 9:18:53 AM
Author: rob09

Date: 10/19/2008 10:28:48 PM
Author: kelpie
Obviously lovers should discuss their future goals about kids in order to avoid upsets like this down the road. However, my impression is that you are more focused on being a ''family'' than you are being a couple. What if kids don''t even end up being part of the equation? Anyone you love as much as you say you love is worth making sacrifices for. If you aren''t willing to make them (out of consideration for her happiness and not a tit-for-tat scenario), then didn''t love her enough to marry her.


My outsider perspective is that allowing her to have her children baptized is not that big of a deal. It is a one time event per child. Sure the ritual is an act of claiming them for the church, but if you discuss this with a priest I''m sure he would understand that they will in fact be raised predominantly Jewish. Also remember that you can raise kids with whatever teachings you wish, but ultimately all children grow up and find their own religious beliefs, which may or may not conflict with their parents''. The church has been around long enough to deal with this scenario over and over and they understand that if they want to keep members they need to accommodate the complex modern relationships people have today. Before you bury the relationship see if you can have a joint meeting with a priest and a rabbi and have them both counsel you.


You are being the inflexible one. She is not asking you to give up anything. She only wants for a little piece of her culture to be shared with her kids. If you truly love her you''ll give her the gift of being flexible and she''ll give you the gift of loving you for the rest of her life. I''d think it''d be a no-brainer.

Although it is pry too late by now - some very good points here.

Not that its worth getting into a hot debate over.....but the point is that she does not want to bring the future kids up Jewish......as opposed to what you are saying. The break up was not over that she wanted to baptise the kids, but that she was not going to bring them up in the Jewish faith and culture.

Mind you, if the Mother is not Jewish I think it is unrealistic that she could or would bring the kids up Jewish. That in itself was faulty & perhaps wishful thinking on the posters behalf.

FWIW, Im Jewish, and have seen every type of marriage combination that you could think of. We have Indian hindus, Catholics etc in the family and from my experience, the Mother does tend to have the main influence on what the kids are brought up as.

My FIL is Indian, but he fully endorced his kids being brought up Jewish. He kept his faith himself but his kids dont have any Indian upbringing. At the end of the day not everyone can sacrifice this much. And there is no use in sugar coating it and saying that love conquers all and that you can have it all.

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

I just want to offer the perspective that many of the families I know had children raised by different religions, including Jewish mixed families and it was only a problem when the parents made it a problem. The kids I know were told there was no one right religion and to follow their own path and they did, most to one of their parents beliefs.
It sounds like it is too late now, but I have seen it work better in more cases than I have seen it be a problem

 

[Diva0413]

I read this thread a day or 2 ago and it broke my heart... I''m so sorry to hear this happened to you and I understand the situation you''re in.

My fiance and I have been dating for 3 and a half years and have 2 different religious views. He''s a Jehovah''s Witness and I''m a non-denominational Christian. When we first started dating, like you, we did discuss our different views and potentially how it would have an affect on our future (mainly having children). We both compromised in regards to our beliefs and we''ve both decided that just as long as our children are raised to have good moral, values, and ethics. When it comes to the children, we decided that none of them should take part in any ceremonies until they are of an age and can make their own decision. Sure, it leaves room for one of us, or both of us hurt if our children choose not to believe in anything, but it has to be their choice for the sake of a relationship such as ours and yours. The bottom line is if you are going to choose to date and potentially marry someone of a different faith, there has to be compromise. Religion is always a tough obstacle to get through when it comes to a relationship but in order for it to work, both of you have to compromise. While she may have said she doesn''t mind raising Jewish children, she may have realized that at some point, with everyone being Jewish but her, she may feel isolated and left out.

I''m wondering if she did believe that she could compromise under the impression that your relationship with her wouldn''t get so serious. Either that or someone said something to her to make her second guess the compromise (believe me... my family and his are always meddling to find out how we''re working this out when it comes to religion).

 

[goldfish]

I am so sorry for the pain and surprise you must be feeling.

I just want to ask a question: are you Orthodox? The only reason I ask is that you mentioned having a plan of converting the children after their birth in order to make them Jewish. An Orthodox rabbi or beit din would not agree to do that unless the mother converted as well. In Orthodox Judaism, your marriage to a non-Jew would simply not be considered valid. The only way for your children to be halachic Jews would be to request an Orthodox conversion upon reaching adulthood.

 

[smooleys]

I was raised Conservative. I know that Reform practices don''t even make you convert the non-Jewish baby. They recognize it as Jewish. While practicing reform isn''t my first choice, it''s something I would do if she agreed to that lifestyle. But, as you have read she feels that she would be an outsider unless she converts, which she doesn''t want to do. I don''t blame her for feeling that way.

 

[JerseyGrl81]

I can relate to your situation. I am Jewish and my fiance is Catholic. We started dating when I was 19 and my fiance was 18 (I am 27 now). We also discussed religion with each other from the very beginning and I made sure that he knew that it was important to me that if we ever got married and had children they would be raised Jewish. He said that was fine with him and for a while it was. Then one day he said he didn''t know if he could do that anymore. I think that in the beginning of a relationship when you discuss it, you are discussing the possiblity of something that may never happen, but as you get more and more serious with a person those fantisies turn into realty and people start to rethink things. We went back and forth on the issue for a while (we have been dating 8 years!) Deciding how to raise your children is a very difficult decision to make if the parents are different religions. Ultimently we decided to raise our children Jewish. My dad suggested we meet with my rabbi to see how this could work for us. I am conservative and the rabbi was very open to discussing our situation. At first I though my dad was being silly when he told us to go, but I am really happy we did. It really opened our eyes to how this could work for us. We all believed that there is no way a child can have two religions. We came to the agreement that the children will be Jewish and they will celebrate Daddy''s holidays with him. They won''t be "their" holidays, but they will celebrate them since they are important to their father. It also helped my fiance to talk with the rabbi and learn about the Jewish faith. He liked the idea of a baby naming or bris and saw how they were similar to baptized as it welcomes a child into their faith. Maybe you could do something similar to this? My fiance isn''t religious now, but he did go to Catholic School up until 8th grade, so religion definitally played a role in his childhood. I want to leave you with something my rabbi aked us, Do you feel that you and your girlfriend are destined to be together and want to travel down the path of life together? If you truly do you will work this out. Where there is a will there is a way. Good Luck!

 

[BlueSki231]

Date: 10/19/2008 10:28:48 PM
Author: kelpie
Obviously lovers should discuss their future goals about kids in order to avoid upsets like this down the road. However, my impression is that you are more focused on being a ''family'' than you are being a couple. What if kids don''t even end up being part of the equation? Anyone you love as much as you say you love is worth making sacrifices for. If you aren''t willing to make them (out of consideration for her happiness and not a tit-for-tat scenario), then didn''t love her enough to marry her.


My outsider perspective is that allowing her to have her children baptized is not that big of a deal. It is a one time event per child. Sure the ritual is an act of claiming them for the church, but if you discuss this with a priest I''m sure he would understand that they will in fact be raised predominantly Jewish. Also remember that you can raise kids with whatever teachings you wish, but ultimately all children grow up and find their own religious beliefs, which may or may not conflict with their parents''. The church has been around long enough to deal with this scenario over and over and they understand that if they want to keep members they need to accommodate the complex modern relationships people have today. Before you bury the relationship see if you can have a joint meeting with a priest and a rabbi and have them both counsel you.


You are being the inflexible one. She is not asking you to give up anything. She only wants for a little piece of her culture to be shared with her kids. If you truly love her you''ll give her the gift of being flexible and she''ll give you the gift of loving you for the rest of her life. I''d think it''d be a no-brainer.

i SOOO agree with the bolded statement, i felt like it needed repeating.

"Also remember that you can raise kids with whatever teachings you wish, but ultimately all children grow up and find their own religious beliefs, which may or may not conflict with their parents''." Well said, Kelpie

I could go on and elaborate but i fear i might get carried away...

 

[smooleys]

Jerseygrl, our situations are very similar and I''m glad you can understand where I am coming from. I did present that exact scenario of celebrating both holidays with the understanding that the kids are Jewish. That means they will have a bris, Hebrew school, bar/bat mitzvahs, etc., but won''t participate in the Catholic religious ceremonies for obvious reasons. I have thought about talking with a Rabbi, maybe as a last ditch effort, but at this point, I don''t think she''s interested. The point is, as I have said, is that she as the mother would be the only non Jew in the family and she will feel like an outsider. She feels as though she is giving up everything and I am not giving up anything and that this is all on "my terms." The point is, is that like your relationship, we have discussed this issue many times over the years and she had said she was fine with it, but now changed her mind and doesn''t seem to want what I want (raising Jewish children). Now, I am supposed to change my mind? We both have pictured, and want, to spend our lives together, but if we can''t agree on this very important issue, it won''t make for a pleasant experience and neither of us wants that.

 

[Regular Guy]

I''m sorry of course. That''s the main thing I would share...except to add...

You and/or your partner might want to investigate this web site:

http://www.interfaithfamily.com/

Also, although I don''t like his tone...

Date: 10/16/2008 8:09:34 AM
Author: AvusM5
I''ll play Devil''s advocate here ...


... I don''t think you''re telling us everything. She wouldn''t just out of the blue come out with all this after four years from one fight, something is definitely missing with this.

as you and your partner both moved to the point where you thought you could ask for her hand, and she...I am guessing...felt the closeness of this...things came to the forefront that might not have otherwise done.

You may find...staying in each others periphery, in an appropriate context (did you say, already...sorry...what''s been your relationship since this tiff) to each other, giving some sort of space...could allow gaps to be mended, if they are to be.

BTW...my wife and I actually married in a buddhist church...which was the "religion" most current with me at the time of our marriage. She was raised mildly Baptist, but didn''t have much of a religious identity to speak of. This was OK for her. But...she found she was not interested in engaging in buddhism, we found it advantageous to find something together, as we contemplated children, so we "chose" Judaism for our children (which was also the tradition I was raised in)...and she has not converted. But...it''s been a process, and continues to be.

Also...though the reform movement has been mentioned above (until recently, our family has affiliated as Reform, though now we are in a movement we call "(J)ust Jewish), another important movement that has allowed patrilineal descent is Reconstructionism.

Though that does not seem to matter to the two of you right now.

Sending good thoughts to you and yours,

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 10/23/2008 7:39:03 PM
Author: smooleys
Jerseygrl, our situations are very similar and I''m glad you can understand where I am coming from. I did present that exact scenario of celebrating both holidays with the understanding that the kids are Jewish. That means they will have a bris, Hebrew school, bar/bat mitzvahs, etc., but won''t participate in the Catholic religious ceremonies for obvious reasons. I have thought about talking with a Rabbi, maybe as a last ditch effort, but at this point, I don''t think she''s interested. The point is, as I have said, is that she as the mother would be the only non Jew in the family and she will feel like an outsider. She feels as though she is giving up everything and I am not giving up anything and that this is all on ''my terms.'' The point is, is that like your relationship, we have discussed this issue many times over the years and she had said she was fine with it, but now changed her mind and doesn''t seem to want what I want (raising Jewish children). Now, I am supposed to change my mind? We both have pictured, and want, to spend our lives together, but if we can''t agree on this very important issue, it won''t make for a pleasant experience and neither of us wants that.

Hello Smooleys.

While I empathize with the difficulty you are experiencing, I sense that it''s kind of a one-way deal here.

I don''t understand how this can''t work itself out. Other very logical options seem to have been presented. But in your post above you seem (to me anyways) to be closed off to a compromise for her sake as well as for yours....Why does the balance have to be tipped to one direction?

Am I missing something here?

LS

 

[*Danielle*]

I am truly sorry that you feel this is the end of something so special. I have to agree with LostSapphire in that I truly thing if you wanted to make it work, it could. I have seen it done in many instances. Love is an important thing and if what you have is so unique and special to you then why give up? Life is hard, people survive. I would rather have an awkward feeling at the few religious days in teh year than lose someone I loved so much.

 

[mimzy]

Date: 10/23/2008 9:48:40 PM
Author: *Danielle*
I am truly sorry that you feel this is the end of something so special. I have to agree with LostSapphire in that I truly thing if you wanted to make it work, it could. I have seen it done in many instances. Love is an important thing and if what you have is so unique and special to you then why give up? Life is hard, people survive. I would rather have an awkward feeling at the few religious days in teh year than lose someone I loved so much.

i think what people don't understand (and i don't just mean you danielle!) is that religion to a lot of people, including the OP is not just something that is celebrated on certain days. it's an intrigral part of their everyday lives and THEY TRULY BELIEVE IN IT. it's not just cultural ceremonies that they put their kids through. how could someone who is jewish, who truly believes in the jewish faith, baptize their child therefore dedicating him or her to jesus? some people take the ceremonies lightly, but others don't. it's not a matter of "just getting along" or "coexisting", it's a matter salvation. some people make it work, and that's great. but it doesn't work for everyone.

and to suggest that the OP doesn't love her enough if he isn't willing to compromise is pretty insulting. for someone who puts God first, it's a very hard and real sacrifice that they are making, and to insist that if he loved her more he wouldn't have a problem with it is just wrong. it's fine if you don't understand, but recognize that it is different for some people who are more religious and that compromise on their faith is not an option. not because they are selfish or inflexible, but because it's a matter of right and wrong to them. and i know in this super PC world that we live in people don't like to come out and say other's religions are wrong, but that is an underlying truth in it all. that *yours* is right and the others are.....offbase. so it's not a matter of trying to teach your kids goodthing1 and goodthing2, it's a matter of right and wrong. you can't teach both as right if you don't believe it. and it's not a matter of being intolerant, it's a matter of being true to your beliefs.

sorry to be preachy mcpreacherson! i know everyone is just being encouraging, but i don't want smooleys to be looked down on for being 'inflexible'! it takes a lot of strength to do what is thought to be right in this situation.

smooleys - i'm sorry that your plans didn't work out

. no matter how much discussion or planning takes place, even the best laid plans can be thrown off track. i was in a situation similar to you about five years ago - i had dated my boyfriend for 3 years and i thought that he had found a good balance and compromise. but after awhile i realized that i was fooling myself and that if i wanted to raise my kids the way that i wanted to and if I wanted to even live the way i wanted to that i was going to have to find someone else. it was the hardest thing i've ever had to do, but in the end it was right. i know it will work out for you too, even if it isn't how you planned. i really admire you for being so strong.

 

[miraclesrule]

OMG, I have so been biting my tongue, but I have had a really bad week, so...you know...what the heck?!?!?!?

I think it is a tragedy when religion trumps love.

That''s it... No major drama or deep thoughts about the meaning of religion in ones life. Just, you know...it''s sad to think that religion can hold more weight than love. I don''t understand that. It''s like...I don''t know...anti-religious. It''s crazy to me. I don''t understand it. Love is universal...religion.....ummmm, not so much.

I feel for you smooleys. I just hope both of you are making the right choice and don''t live to regret it. I tend to think that religion can almost rise to the level of an addiction. I personally wouldn''t marry anyone who was an alcoholic. Nor would I marry someone who was hard core inflexible about religion. The reason is this....

It becomes more important than the other person in your life, or can feel that way...(like a mistress, or a drug habit, or an addiction) And that...is so not the defination of love to me.

But having said that. I can totally relate to your personal choice. I do wish you happiness. I wish you both happiness. I wish us all happiness....and love.

 

[mimzy]

Date: 10/23/2008 11:00:27 PM
Author: miraclesrule
OMG, I have so been biting my tongue, but I have had a really bad week, so...you know...what the heck?!?!?!?


I think it is a tragedy when religion trumps love.


That's it... No major drama or deep thoughts about the meaning of religion in ones life. Just, you know...it's sad to think that religion can hold more weight than love. I don't understand that. It's like...I don't know...anti-religious. It's crazy to me. I don't understand it. Love is universal...religion.....ummmm, not so much.


I feel for you smooleys. I just hope both of you are making the right choice and don't live to regret it. I tend to think that religion can almost rise to the level of an addiction. I personally wouldn't marry anyone who was an alcoholic. Nor would I marry someone who was hard core inflexible about religion. The reason is this....


It becomes more important than the other person in your life, or can feel that way...(like a mistress, or a drug habit, or an addiction) And that...is so not the defination of love to me.

But having said that. I can totally relate to your personal choice. I do wish you happiness. I wish you both happiness. I wish us all happiness....and love.

yep. for people who claim that their god is important to them, it should come before another person. i know the word "religious" invokes images of rosaries and crucifixes or iconography or what have you (i don't know about jewish artifacts!), but it helps you to replace it with "spiritual" then go for it. it's just spiritually devoted to one faith. and faith is not something "to be dealt with", like a mistress or alcoholism, and to to compare someone who takes their faith seriously to an alcoholic is pretty ignorant and pretty hurtful. if it's not that important to you, then that's fine, but please don't cut others down because they are more devout or diminish their faith because you don't understand or agree with it.

are there crazies out there who do ridiculous things in the name of religion? of course (crusades, anyone?) but this isn't an example of that. and as for religion trumping love......smooleys love for his god is trumping his love for another person. how can someone criticize that?

 

[miraclesrule]

Mimzy!! Yikes!

"smooleys love for his God is trumping his love for another person. how can someone criticize that?"

First, I never critized smooley. So let's make that clear.
I critized "religion" for trumping "love". So can you agree that I said that and did not criticize anyone specifically...at all...in any way.

I critized religion. If you want to identify yourself very strongly into the defination of religion, then you are free to do so. But please, I respectfully ask you to not to accuse me of saying things I did not say.

For better or for worse...right or wrong...believed in or not...religion is one of the most divisive ideologies known to humankind...next to the color of ones skin. It's separates and divides. Not unlike politics. If you can persuade me otherwise, I am all ears.

Wait, that would be against regulations, so let's simply agree that this is a tragic situation and I hope that smooley finds his love and happiness as did you.

ETA: Wait, now I am kind of fired up.

Do you think that a crying baby gives a hoot what the parents religion is? No, they don't. They care if they are loved. And feed. And held. And nurtured. And if an innocent infant could speak to it's parents when they were fighting about baptism they would probably scream "WTH are you two fighting about!?!" What about me?...do you love me?...do you love each other...let's have a group hug!

But I get your point. For some people their faith in their religion is their priority. Again, their choice. And if it is a priority for one and not the other, then the two are incompatible.

ETAA: I also believe that spirituality and religion are two separate things.

 

[BlueSki231]

Date: 10/23/2008 11:37:25 PM
Author: miraclesrule
Mimzy!! Yikes!


''smooleys love for his God is trumping his love for another person. how can someone criticize that?''


First, I never critized smooley. So let''s make that clear.

I critized ''religion'' for trumping ''love''. So can you agree that I said that and did not criticize anyone specifically...at all...in any way.


I critized religion. If you want to identify yourself very strongly into the defination of religion, then you are free to do so. But please, I respectfully ask you to not to accuse me of saying things I did not say.


For better or for worse...right or wrong...believed in or not...religion is one of the most divisive ideologies known to humankind...next to the color of ones skin. It''s separates and divides. Not unlike politics. If you can persuade me otherwise, I am all ears.


Wait, that would be against regulations, so let''s simply agree that this is a tragic situation and I hope that smooley finds his love and happiness as did you.


ETA: Wait, now I am kind of fired up.

Do you think that a crying baby gives a hoot what the parents religion is? No, they don''t. They care if they are loved. And feed. And held. And nurtured. And if an innocent infant could speak to it''s parents when they were fighting about baptism they would probably scream ''WTH are you two fighting about!?!'' What about me?...do you love me?...do you love each other...let''s have a group hug!


But I get your point. For some people their faith in their religion is their priority. Again, their choice. And if it is a priority for one and not the other, then the two are incompatible.


ETAA: I also believe that spirituality and religion are two separate things.

I am with you, WORD FOR WORD.. you said exactly what i decided for some reason i shouldn''t say..

and i am SO glad you mentioned that spirituality and religion are two separate things.
religion divides, spirituality unites. (i suppose that can be labeled an opinion...

but i find it to be a fact in my reality)

it breaks my heart that religion is dividing two people who otherwise love each other..

annnnd i think im going to stop here haha.. don''t want to make any enemies.

 

[miraclesrule]

Namaste to you Namaste. ::::bows:::::

 

[BlueSki231]

Date: 10/24/2008 12:33:04 AM
Author: miraclesrule
Namaste to you Namaste. ::::bows:::::

heehee Thank you. Namaste to you, miraclesrule.

And to you as well smooleys. You made a very difficult decision and no doubt you will find someone who''s beliefs in raising children are compatible with yours. In the end you gotta do what your heart/intuition tells you is the right thing to do.
Hang in there in this tough time...

 

[mimzy]

Date: 10/23/2008 11:37:25 PM
Author: miraclesrule
Mimzy!! Yikes!


''smooleys love for his God is trumping his love for another person. how can someone criticize that?''


First, I never critized smooley. So let''s make that clear.

I critized ''religion'' for trumping ''love''. So can you agree that I said that and did not criticize anyone specifically...at all...in any way.


I critized religion. If you want to identify yourself very strongly into the defination of religion, then you are free to do so. But please, I respectfully ask you to not to accuse me of saying things I did not say.


For better or for worse...right or wrong...believed in or not...religion is one of the most divisive ideologies known to humankind...next to the color of ones skin. It''s separates and divides. Not unlike politics. If you can persuade me otherwise, I am all ears.


Wait, that would be against regulations, so let''s simply agree that this is a tragic situation and I hope that smooley finds his love and happiness as did you.


ETA: Wait, now I am kind of fired up.

Do you think that a crying baby gives a hoot what the parents religion is? No, they don''t. They care if they are loved. And feed. And held. And nurtured. And if an innocent infant could speak to it''s parents when they were fighting about baptism they would probably scream ''WTH are you two fighting about!?!'' What about me?...do you love me?...do you love each other...let''s have a group hug!


But I get your point. For some people their faith in their religion is their priority. Again, their choice. And if it is a priority for one and not the other, then the two are incompatible.


ETAA: I also believe that spirituality and religion are two separate things.

miracles, in your original post you said that it''s a tragedy when religion trumps love....and i think it''s safe to assume you were talking about smooleys'' situation, right? it *appeared* that you see his situation as his religion is trumping his love for his ex girlfriend. but why do you assume that it''s this nasty concept of "religion" and not his love for his god that he is being faithful to? and i didn''t mean to write it in a way that made it seem like you specifically were criticizing him....that was more in response to others who said that he didn''t love his ex girlfriend enough, etc. Honestly sorry about that.

and i''d never argue that religion doesn''t have the power to be divisive. but in a situation like this, it''s not country against country, it''s two hearts that are trying to be true to themselves. and like i said before, this is not a matter of tolerance or being PC, it''s a matter of doing what your heart tells you is right. so while others might see this situation as religion ripping them apart, others might see it as a very sad but necessary thing - if smooleys and his ex girlfriend didn''t break up over this, they might spend a lifetime being resentful or angry that they compromised. sure, it can be suggested that they just loosen up about it, but faith is not something that can be turned off or on when convenient. and i completely agree that if (a) god is very important to one person and not the other then they aren''t likely compatible.

as for religion vs. spirituality: religion has a connotation that implies that the person''s beliefs are more ritualistic or even empty. the word has more to do with the rites involved, and dogma and all the things that people tend to harp on (myself included at times - i don''t consider myself very "religious"). "spiritual" is such a warm fuzzy word that just about everyone prescribes themselves to. but the two aren''t mutually exclusive: i know many many very spiritual people who are christians and muslims. are they considered "religious" because they practice a religion? i guess so. but their faith goes beyond that, and that should be recognized. i said what i did in the post in hopes that people could see the OP''s ''religion'' as something more than just a cultural or traditional thing (which is easier to toss aside or compromise on) and see it as a very deep rooted spiritual issue. you know what i mean?

haha and i''m sure that no, babies don''t care. but didn''t you care how your daughter was brought up? maybe not in terms of "religion" but in terms of morals and beliefs about humanity, etc? the simple truths that you wanted to instill in your daughter were/are important - to smooleys this is one of those simple truths. and to have someone in the background or right beside you going "well, yeah....but not really", it would be tough.

but i definitely don''t want to get this thread removed for smooleys! so i really do apologize that i was careless in my writing and made it sound like i was accusing you specifically. this is waaaayy too close to a soapbox for me (i knew i shouldn''t have hit ''submit'' the first time!)

 

[miraclesrule]

Thank you mimzy.

You''re right. I did care how my daughter''s views were shaped. It is for that reason that I didn''t baptize her until she was old enough to make that decision for herself. Personally, I am far more spiritual than she is but then again I wear a "oneness" symbol around my neck that is a creative symbol that combines the symbols of all the top religions. It gets a lot of attention. I enjoy explaining what it is.

I know that smooleys is going through a very heart wrenching experience and I think that it was a courageous thing for him to do. Compatibility is a very important ingredient in a long term relationship. I just feel his pain so much as I followed his thread as he was choosing the ring and was just not expecting the outcome. I do wish him the very best in the future and hope that his finds his hearts desire.

Peace

 

[FrekeChild]

Hmmm...You know, my parents chose Catholicism for me. I dismissed that belief, and choose to not only be anti-organized religion (which is not to say that I don''t respect them, I actually find them quite interesting) but also non-spiritual. My mother came very close to disowning me because I did not want anything to do with going to church anymore. She didn''t talk to me for three days.

Blah. In reality, I think it''s less the difference in religion, and more the level of belief from the two individuals that''s important. Instead of someone who is very strongly Jewish and someone who is barely Catholic, I think that two individuals who are equally passionate about their religion are better suited for each other.

Then again, this is just my own personal theory.

And don''t disown your children if they decide to be Catholic/Buddhist/Agnostic/Baptist/Muslim/etc.

 

[AdiS]

Date: 10/23/2008 11:00:27 PM
Author: miraclesrule
OMG, I have so been biting my tongue, but I have had a really bad week, so...you know...what the heck?!?!?!?

I think it is a tragedy when religion trumps love.

That''s it... No major drama or deep thoughts about the meaning of religion in ones life. Just, you know...it''s sad to think that religion can hold more weight than love. I don''t understand that. It''s like...I don''t know...anti-religious. It''s crazy to me. I don''t understand it. Love is universal...religion.....ummmm, not so much.

I feel for you smooleys. I just hope both of you are making the right choice and don''t live to regret it. I tend to think that religion can almost rise to the level of an addiction. I personally wouldn''t marry anyone who was an alcoholic. Nor would I marry someone who was hard core inflexible about religion. The reason is this....

It becomes more important than the other person in your life, or can feel that way...(like a mistress, or a drug habit, or an addiction) And that...is so not the defination of love to me.

But having said that. I can totally relate to your personal choice. I do wish you happiness. I wish you both happiness. I wish us all happiness....and love.

A big ditto to this miracles.

I''m really sorry you''re going through this smooleys although I can''t completely relate. A very good friend of mine was born and raised (happily, I should say) in a family where the father is Jewish and the mother is Eastern Orthodox. They both decided to let her choose her religion when she''s old enough to make such an important choice. She''s still not sure what she wants for herself but no one considers that a big issue. They believe her religion will find her when the time is right. I think she was leaning towards Catholicism when we talked about it recently. Anyway, what I mean is, when you want to find a way, you usually can. And before you blast me like you did with one of the other posters (quote: "Religion is not like going to the store to by a pair of pants. I don''t know your background, but it sounds as if you either are not very religious or don''t care." Uncalled for IMHO.) I''m going to clarify that I''m not in the least criticizing your personal religious choice or beliefs. All of us here want to show you our support, to offer advice and examples where this kind of relationship worked.
I wish you all the best and I hope you find the happiness you deserve.

 

[BlueSki231]

Date: 10/24/2008 3:46:19 AM
Author: AdiS

A big ditto to this miracles.


I''m really sorry you''re going through this smooleys although I can''t completely relate. A very good friend of mine was born and raised (happily, I should say) in a family where the father is Jewish and the mother is Eastern Orthodox. They both decided to let her choose her religion when she''s old enough to make such an important choice. She''s still not sure what she wants for herself but no one considers that a big issue. They believe her religion will find her when the time is right. I think she was leaning towards Catholicism when we talked about it recently. Anyway, what I mean is, when you want to find a way, you usually can. And before you blast me like you did with one of the other posters (quote: ''Religion is not like going to the store to by a pair of pants. I don''t know your background, but it sounds as if you either are not very religious or don''t care.'' Uncalled for IMHO.) I''m going to clarify that I''m not in the least criticizing your personal religious choice or beliefs. All of us here want to show you our support, to offer advice and examples where this kind of relationship worked.

I wish you all the best and I hope you find the happiness you deserve.

Ha maybe i should just leave this alone but I''m so compelled to say.. Religion IS like going to the store any buying a pair of pants. In most cases parents are choosing to hand down the pants THEY wore down to their children, and forcing them to wear them, even if the child is kicking and screaming as they''re being put on.
I was given pants that were 5 sizes too small - that I could barely breathe in. And was scared into thinking (by those that wore the same style of pants) that if i changed them, awful things would happen. So I went to the store for new pants when I was old enough to know better, but didn''t feel like any fit me quite right (typical).. so i chose to design and sew my own pants.. my own pants that fit me JUST right...

But seriously.. I agree that religion is something that should be chosen as an adult - when you can fully grasp what is being presented to you.
And just because I say this it doesn''t mean i don''t care. I do care VERY much about my spiritual beliefs. I could have not even BEGUN a relationship with someone whose spiritual beliefs were not compatible with mine. I care so much that it''s an initial deal-breaker to me because i just can''t intimately relate to someone in that very important way. So smooleys, I really can respect your decision to end the relationship.

 

[smooleys]

Alrighty then...I see what one story can get started here! First, I never and don''t mean to criticize anyone''s views nor do I think anyone intends to criticize mine. Everyone has their own opinion and when it comes to religion and love, it can get real spicy real quick, as can be seen from this thread. I so appreciate all the support most people have given me, it really does mean a lot even though we don''t know each other. I suppose we could go back and forth with this issue forever and never come to agreement because it''s not about right or wrong or one point of view. That''s what makes this such a difficult situation for the two people involved. While some think that I am being inflexible and letting religion trump love and preventing this from working, that is not the case. If your read the thread (my story) from the beginning you will remind yourself that this happened because she changed her mind/feelings at the last minute. We were in agreement about how we were going to live our lives during this whole relationship. I do agree that it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that religion is breaking us up, but that is the reality of the situation. Two conflicting philosophies won''t work when both individuals want religion to be a part of their children''s lives. That''s what I think some people are overlooking here. It''s not just that I want it, but now she wants it too, which is fine...unfortunate for "us" but I can''t be mad at her for feeling what she does. But, it presents a problem because we both can''t raise our children with the same religious backgrounds that we were raised in if those religions are in conflict with each other. And that''s the point, we both want that background for our kids. Up until a few weeks ago, I thought (and she thought) she didn''t care about her religion, but now she does. That''s why it worked for four years and doesn''t work now. People are entitled to have their opinions on the way this played, or is playing out, but let''s all try to remain civil like the good Pricescopers we are. Frankly, I sort of regret posting in the first place. I''m not the kind who airs his dirty laundry in public, but at the time I felt the need to vent and I spent so much time on here during the last year that I felt it was a good spot. If only I got such a response to my diamond questions!

 

[honey22]

For a marriage to be truly successful, both parties must make compromises. It sounds like you are totally unwilling to compromise?

Surely the love you have for this woman should come above your religious beliefs. You both need to come to a compromise that can work for you as a family.

If you can''t compromise on this issue, what makes you think you can make an entire marriage work?

 

[Haven]

Date: 10/23/2008 10:37:54 PM
Author: mimzy

Date: 10/23/2008 9:48:40 PM

Author: *Danielle*

I am truly sorry that you feel this is the end of something so special. I have to agree with LostSapphire in that I truly thing if you wanted to make it work, it could. I have seen it done in many instances. Love is an important thing and if what you have is so unique and special to you then why give up? Life is hard, people survive. I would rather have an awkward feeling at the few religious days in teh year than lose someone I loved so much.

i think what people don''t understand (and i don''t just mean you danielle!) is that religion to a lot of people, including the OP is not just something that is celebrated on certain days. it''s an intrigral part of their everyday lives and THEY TRULY BELIEVE IN IT. it''s not just cultural ceremonies that they put their kids through. how could someone who is jewish, who truly believes in the jewish faith, baptize their child therefore dedicating him or her to jesus? some people take the ceremonies lightly, but others don''t. it''s not a matter of ''just getting along'' or ''coexisting'', it''s a matter salvation. some people make it work, and that''s great. but it doesn''t work for everyone.


and to suggest that the OP doesn''t love her enough if he isn''t willing to compromise is pretty insulting. for someone who puts God first, it''s a very hard and real sacrifice that they are making, and to insist that if he loved her more he wouldn''t have a problem with it is just wrong. it''s fine if you don''t understand, but recognize that it is different for some people who are more religious and that compromise on their faith is not an option. not because they are selfish or inflexible, but because it''s a matter of right and wrong to them. and i know in this super PC world that we live in people don''t like to come out and say other''s religions are wrong, but that is an underlying truth in it all. that *yours* is right and the others are.....offbase. so it''s not a matter of trying to teach your kids goodthing1 and goodthing2, it''s a matter of right and wrong. you can''t teach both as right if you don''t believe it. and it''s not a matter of being intolerant, it''s a matter of being true to your beliefs.


sorry to be preachy mcpreacherson! i know everyone is just being encouraging, but i don''t want smooleys to be looked down on for being ''inflexible''! it takes a lot of strength to do what is thought to be right in this situation.


smooleys - i''m sorry that your plans didn''t work out

. no matter how much discussion or planning takes place, even the best laid plans can be thrown off track. i was in a situation similar to you about five years ago - i had dated my boyfriend for 3 years and i thought that he had found a good balance and compromise. but after awhile i realized that i was fooling myself and that if i wanted to raise my kids the way that i wanted to and if I wanted to even live the way i wanted to that i was going to have to find someone else. it was the hardest thing i''ve ever had to do, but in the end it was right. i know it will work out for you too, even if it isn''t how you planned. i really admire you for being so strong.

Big ditto to you, Mimzy.

Smooleys--I''m so sorry you posted on here looking for support and were greeted with some passive-aggressive shots at your choices and beliefs.

I want to offer some support. I''m Jewish, my family is Jewish, and I, too, would not marry someone who wanted to baptize our children. That is a a choice that I am entitled to make, and others'' beliefs about what should be most important in a marriage have absolutely no bearing on my own, or on yours, for that matter.

I was once engaged to a man who was raised by a Catholic mother and a Muslim father. At the beginning of our four+ year relationship he told me that he was happy to raise his future children Jewish. By the end of our relationship, his ideas had changed, most likely for the very reason that Deco mentioned--it''s much easier to agree to something in theory, but when things are quickly becoming possible realities, the truth sinks in. That is okay. He didn''t want to raise his children Jewish. But I did. So, that (among other things) was a deal breaker. It hurt like hell, but I moved on and fell in love again and married a man who I cannot fathom living without.

Listen, I understand how religion is a loaded issue for many people. I see how it can divide, and bring about horrible things. (I saw Religulous and loved it, I completely agree with Maher.) However, I have experienced (throughout my entire life as a practicing Reform Jew) the good side of being involved religion. I could never give up this enormous part of me, or my history, and marrying someone who did not share my particular beliefs is a sacrifice I am not willing to make. (For me, it would be akin to marrying someone who does not share another deep belief of mine, such as education, or sustainable living, or any other of the myriad beliefs I have that shape the way I live my life and plan to raise my children.)

I don''t think it''s a bad thing to be inflexible about things that are of serious importance (and thus too important to compromise) to you. When people over-compromise on certain things they risk compromising themselves. Become too flexible, and you become someone else. You, and only you, can determine what is most important to you, and what you are willing and not willing to compromise on. You are not willing to compromise on religion, and my guess is that if you did, you would end up resentful and unhappy. This time around you learned this the hard way, and I''m sure that you will take this experience and use it to figure out what you need from a potential partner from the very beginning. Will it be painful for a while? Yes. But this is what we mean when we say experience is the best teacher.

Good luck, Smooley. I can''t wait to read a post from you about how you found someone who suits you even better and are now ridiculously happy and grateful for going through this experience.

P.S. I found my nice Jewish boy on jdate. It''s worth a try, when you''re ready to get back out there! (I''m not trying to be a pushy Jewish woman here, or anything. I''m just saying . . .

)

 

[Rhea]

What a heartbreaking decision to make. I hope that you''re able to find someone with similar religious views to marry.

What happened to the ring?

 

[smooleys]

Thanks Haven for making your points. For what''s it''s worth, my two brothers have been on Jdate for quite some time now and not much as far as substance has come from it. Quite a bunch of characters on there from what I hear. But, alas, I shall give it a try...you never know right? I like to think of myself as an attractive prospect. You know any single women???? On a serious note, I hope I do find someone as great as the girl I was with...that is a hard one to top, believe you me. You are right though about not being able to compromise on religion. I will resent myself for not being true to my values, etc. and that will not make for a happy marriage, life. One day at a time...

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Smooley, I just wanted to wish you luck and do hope that you find somebody that you not only love, but who also shares you religious views, morals, values, goals, etc.

Unfortunately love isn''t enough to make a relationship work. I know that it''s painful when something like this happens, but I do think you will find a great match for you. Unconditional love is something that only exists between parents and children, not two healthy adults. Relationships between adults are based on conditional love and religion is one of your conditions--it''s what keeps you true to yourself.

Again, good luck and just wanted to tell you I''m sorry!