Advice on Round Brilliant

[Jyt1022]

Given that they're both VS2, I think it's likely largely irrelevant - BUT, on top of being slightly larger obviously, the more expensive stone has no notation of surface graining. To have that surface graining noted and still get VS2 on the first stone it must really be mild, however. Still, it's there, and that could be a bit of that difference in price you're seeing.

Got it, thanks for the input.

 

[sledge]

I'm leaning between these two (one was recommended by @Txborn79)

1. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4312113.htm
2. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4379400.htm

One question I have is the 2.238 ct stone much better than the 2.191 (or any of the others listed)? It's almost 2K more and I couldn't see a significant advantage over the 2.191ct aside from slightly large (though the dimensions are very very similar).

You have no bad choices with any of these stones.

Out of the two you've shortlisted, I prefer the 2.238 just a smidge more. I find the fatter areas (76% LGF's) more attractive. Also, watching the videos side by side, it appears that stone has just a hair more fire. Again, very minor differences but you are in a great position here.

In regards to size, there is weight difference but virtually no real spread difference.

• 2.191 = 8.39 x 8.42 = 8.405mm average spread
• 2.238 = 8.40 x 8.46 = 8.430mm average spread
• Difference = 8.430 - 8.405 = 0.025mm
• 0.025mm = 0.00098 inches
• 1/512th inch = 0.00195 inches

To put things in perspective, below is a picture of a standard tape measure. Each of the marks are 1/16th inch and obviously very zoomed up. If you could draw 5 lines equally spaced out between the 1/16th marks then the difference is just slightly less than the space between those 5 marks.

In other words, the stone has more weight and technically a larger spread, but your eyes will never be able to discern any size difference whatsoever.

 

[sledge]

I failed to include this in my last post.

One area where you might see minor difference is color. If you aren't aware color is graded by humans and done so with the stone face down so the grader can see the body of the stone where color is most prevalent.

There is a "master set of stones" they use during the grade process to determine where the stone being graded matches up. Where the stone matches most closely is the color grade assigned.

Due to the process of color grading, it is possible to have a small RANGE of difference in stones graded the same color grade. So you could have a "high I" that is closer to H. Or you may have a "low I" that is closer to J. Or you may just a "regular I" that is right in the middle.

In your earlier post you mentioned you were partially color blind, so this may be less meaningful to you. However, statistically women tend to see color more easily than us knuckle draggers, errr, men. For instance, I bought my wife an H and we both see color but she has eagle eyes that sees it way easier than me. However, she is also "color tolerant" meaning although she sees the difference very easily she isn't bothered by it.

I am not sure how you guys arrived at I color, but obviously the lower color you guys find pleasing the more money you can pump into the other C's. My point being I also noticed you said J was a possibility in the earlier post. Many people believe that I/J is a range where some people may see too much tint.

All the above said, that you could ask WF to pull the stones from their vault and compare them side by side. Ask them to send you videos & photos of them. WF can tell you if they see any fire difference and color difference. This professional evaluation may also persuade your decision.

 

[Jyt1022]

I failed to include this in my last post.

One area where you might see minor difference is color. If you aren't aware color is graded by humans and done so with the stone face down so the grader can see the body of the stone where color is most prevalent.

There is a "master set of stones" they use during the grade process to determine where the stone being graded matches up. Where the stone matches most closely is the color grade assigned.

Due to the process of color grading, it is possible to have a small RANGE of difference in stones graded the same color grade. So you could have a "high I" that is closer to H. Or you may have a "low I" that is closer to J. Or you may just a "regular I" that is right in the middle.

In your earlier post you mentioned you were partially color blind, so this may be less meaningful to you. However, statistically women tend to see color more easily than us knuckle draggers, errr, men. For instance, I bought my wife an H and we both see color but she has eagle eyes that sees it way easier than me. However, she is also "color tolerant" meaning although she sees the difference very easily she isn't bothered by it.

I am not sure how you guys arrived at I color, but obviously the lower color you guys find pleasing the more money you can pump into the other C's. My point being I also noticed you said J was a possibility in the earlier post. Many people believe that I/J is a range where some people may see too much tint.

All the above said, that you could ask WF to pull the stones from their vault and compare them side by side. Ask them to send you videos & photos of them. WF can tell you if they see any fire difference and color difference. This professional evaluation may also persuade your decision.

Thanks this is helpful. I was actually just about to ask about color. I think your recommendation asking WF to see if there’s a color difference is a great idea.

That said, would you trade any of the other C’s to get an H color? The only one I can think of is carat at this point or increasing my budget...

 

[mihirksh]

Hi all - I've done some more work and curious to get folks' thoughts between these diamonds.

Diamond comparison | Compare Diamonds to choose and buy the best one

Whiteflash gives you an excellent opportunity to compare diamonds to make a great deal. With diamond’s parameters provided, you can compare any detail.

www.whiteflash.com

I'm leaning between these two (one was recommended by @Txborn79)

1. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4312113.htm
2. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4379400.htm

One question I have is the 2.238 ct stone much better than the 2.191 (or any of the others listed)? It's almost 2K more and I couldn't see a significant advantage over the 2.191ct aside from slightly large (though the dimensions are very very similar).

I do agree with @Avatar345

0.04ct difference in the size costs approx more then 400 $ (according to the discount provided in these 2 diamonds )

and

Surface graining also affects the price at certain extent ..but shouldnt increase more then 3-4% of the value ...

Also remember that all the diamonds with same Cs cant be compared with similar prices ..

 

[sledge]

10370

Thanks this is helpful. I was actually just about to ask about color. I think your recommendation asking WF to see if there’s a color difference is a great idea.

That said, would you trade any of the other C’s to get an H color? The only one I can think of is carat at this point or increasing my budget...

Did you ever ask WF for additional info on the color of these stones? Normally they put the stones side by side and do specific photos and videos for the items you are considering. If so, please share with us.

Remember, if your cost/budget is fixed then you HAVE to adjust the other C’s to find balance. Each person values the C’s differently so the right answer for me may not be the right one for you. Heck, you and your girl may even differ. No disrespect to you but if I was color blind I think that would be the one I cared about the least to be honest. I would suggest you use HER preference on the C’s since the ring will be for her.

That said, most people here (including myself) believe cut is #1. Carat is probably 2nd with color coming in a close 3rd (and for some color & carat will be swapped). Normally clarity is last. However, there are always exceptions. What really matters is what is right for you and your girl.

At this point, I see clarity as your next logical sacrifice. You can find nice eye clean 2 carat SI1 stones. Especially when shopping with a super ideal like WF where they are carefully vetting a stone to ensure no inclusions affect light performance. There are lots of people on this forum with large SI1 clarity WF stones.

The real beauty of the situation is that if you get a color or clarity you later want to change, then you can use WF’s trade program to swap stones. You just need to be at the same or higher value of the original stone. One solution might be $20k budget today and an I-VS2 stone. Your love later decides she wants a G or H color. You guys save the extra money at your comfort level and then do an upgrade to get the color she wants. No size or clarity bump, just color. Maybe that’s a nice anniversary gift. The program just really allows flexibility to grow with your life and preferences as they change and hedge against the pressure to get things perfect today when you know it will likely change in the future.

 

[sledge]

In regards to the price difference in the slightly larger 2.238 and 2.191 stones I have some different viewpoints than others.

First I noticed the 2.191 was certified back in August 2020. And the the 2.238 was certified more recently in March 2021. It’s plausible diamond rough and labor costs were different in those time periods that would help contribute to some of the variance.

Also, while we normally talk about major “magic weight” price increases like 1.50 carats, 2 carats, 2.5 carats, etc the reality is there are smaller bumps in smaller increments. For instance, all your other choices are < 2.20 carats except the 2.238.

While there is no appreciable difference in spread, we all know weight drives price. For this exact reason, many bargain shoppers will seek out a 1.95-1.99 stone as opposed to 2+ carats. While those “near 2 carat” stones carry a slight premium over a 1.90-1.95, it’s not as drastic as crossing the 2.00 line.

All said, the 2.238 is about $600 per carat more expensive. Maybe a portion of that increase is related to smaller magic weight price bump.

Overall, If the 2.238 pinches your budget and you don’t feel you are getting value from that increase then I’d go with one of the others. Really all the WF choices are winners.

 

[Jyt1022]

I appreciate the comments @sledge
Yes, I've actually had several phone calls with Whiteflash directly and had them view all of the stones I listed in comparison. It turns out the two I shortlisted may not be the best. The 2.191 (per WF) is the warmest I of the bunch while all the others were "middle of the fairway I's". As for the 2.238, there was a noticeable dark inclusion and easiest to spot out of all.

This left the 2.168 I VS2 as the top choice of the I VS2 groups

As for the H stones, they recommended the 2.034 H VS2 but personally it felt a little small for me.

I'm now asking them to pull up an H and G SI1. Both have some inclusions but they are going to send me some HR photos later today to compare them all. I'm hoping the HSi1 and GSI1 stones are still visually eye clean and allows me to go up in color and size while paying a couple grand more than the I VS2.

I'll send through the photos and videos once received. Would be great to hear other's thoughts.

 

[Jyt1022]

Just got some videos/photos from white flash. Curious to get the group's thoughts here.

• 2.168 I VS2 - $20.7K
• 2.425 H SI1 (though not a cut above - just expert selection) - $23.5K
• 2.068 G SI1 - $21.6K

To me, the inclusions don't seem that bad for the two SI1's. The 2.425 H SI does have some haziness under spotlight lighting but that feels fairly rare that i'll be in those instances. It does look a little blue? despite the fluorescence being negligible.

Video Link

 

[sledge]

As for the H stones, they recommended the 2.034 H VS2 but personally it felt a little small for me.

Seeing this comment, it struck me as odd that you had the 2.068 G-SI1 on your short list. As I was looking closer at the specs, I see the G is about 0.10mm bigger.

That's not very much, so is this a mental thing? Or when you saw the other photos & videos, you determined the H was too small?

My concern being the G may also be too small.

 

[Jyt1022]

Seeing this comment, it struck me as odd that you had the 2.068 G-SI1 on your short list. As I was looking closer at the specs, I see the G is about 0.10mm bigger.

That's not very much, so is this a mental thing? Or when you saw the other photos & videos, you determined the H was too small?

My concern being the G may also be too small.

I think it was more mental than anything. I actually didn't see the 2.034 H stone in a side by side photo but did see a very similarly sized stone in person (it was 2.08ct that was 8.16mm x 8.2mm) and I was thinking to myself in an ideal world, I would go marginally higher.

The G SI1 was included as a late addition since that was the one stone they hadn't pulled for me yet. It was killing two birds at once (i.e., I asked them to inspect this stone and at the same time just compare it side by side with the other two given it is a G color). One of my concerns was that the I VS2 would be too warm for me so seeing it up against and H and G was a good way to test it.

I'm pretty torn at this point!

 

[sledge]

I discovered that larger 2.425 H-SI1 awhile back. Maybe it was when I was searching for you. But I held off suggesting as I really dislike the haziness. I know magnified videos enhance what's there, but I don't think I would be okay with that so I had a problem recommending to anyone.

There is some minor imperfections in the hearts. The "worst" being at 1 o'clock, which in the grand scheme is not much especially since they had the stone marked as ES and discounted. However, I couldn't help but think the haziness played a part in the ES designation as well.

I like the proportions and value quite well. Just the haziness makes it a no go for me. YMMV.

 

[sledge]

Ignoring size & inclusions, I wanted to focus on color. I actually think the 3 stones you had them pull was all very similar. I can tell very faint differences between them but have to stare for a minute.

However, I noticed they were arranged I-H-G so you were truly seeing 1 grade difference. It's supposed to be difficult to see just 1 grade difference. So that's a good thing IMO. However, wanting to see more variance I cropped the G and moved next to the I stone. You can see the color variance more easily but it's still a faint difference.

 

[Jyt1022]

Yeah I spent a bit of time talking to them about the H SI1's haziness. They stated that's exactly the reason why it was rated an ES vs. A Cut Above since you couldn't fully see through it on the nature of the lighting. I was told by them it's really only visible when you have the spotlight lighting on it which is the image grab you shared, and that it shouldn't impact the brilliance on a day to day basis. I thought to myself, how often would she really be in these situations where the haziness comes up? Outside of this issue, I completely agree with you, the value relative to all other things seem really attractive.

Then deciding between the I VS2 vs. G S1 - I think it really comes down to color vs clarity. My question is how do you feel about the inclusions on the G SI1? I think the inclusions are a bit more visible (obviously under magnification) but there's no haziness.

 

[sledge]

Trying to squeeze out a little more value for you, I am curious if you could add one more stone to your comparison?

WF ES 2.321 I-VVS2 @ $23,016 wire
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4273464.htm

55.6t, 61.4d, 34.6c/40.8p, 78lgf's and 8.55mm spread -- HELLO MAMASITA!!!

You would have absolutely ZERO concerns with clarity with it being a VVS2. The proportions are amazing and will make many here jealous! I think it got put in the ES category due to some slight variations in the heart patterns. But it's extremely minor, even less than the variance in the hazy H.

I'd want to know how color compares to the I-VS2. If it's the same or better, this would be my horse! All the same great perks as ACA, but for cheaper. Oh yeah and bigger & insanely great clarity!

 

[sledge]

I thought to myself, how often would she really be in these situations where the haziness comes up?

I hear what you're saying. Maybe the better question is this -- how you would feel if it happened and you had to explain to her why it's hazy? Would you be good with that? What if it happened in front of friends, family, etc? Would it still some her or your thunder upon viewing with your own eyeballs?

I certainly don't want to deter you. You know you and her best. As long as it wouldn't negatively effect either of you, then maybe it's a non-issue for you guys.

Then deciding between the I VS2 vs. G S1 - I think it really comes down to color vs clarity. My question is how do you feel about the inclusions on the G SI1? I think the inclusions are a bit more visible (obviously under magnification) but there's no haziness.

I agree, the stone is very clear. Obviously you can see the whisps, etc under magnification but as you zoom out I can't really see them. I took my monitor down to 25% of original size, which makes the diamond still bigger than to the naked eye, and I couldn't see the inclusions. I think you are fine.

Since WF don't have zoom features on their videos, on Google Chrome browser you can use the CTRL key + your mouse to zoom in or out. Roll the wheel down to make smaller and up to make larger. Alternatively you can hit the 3 dots on the right side (menu button) and zoom from there.

 

[Jyt1022]

You're throwing another curveball at me with that 2.321 I VVS2. But it's a good one! I never looked at VVS2 stones since I thought I'd be "over paying" for that kind of clarity but it doesn't seem like the price jumped that much relative to the other stones I was considering.

I think at this point I'm leaning towards the 2.168 I VS2 and your latest addition (2.321 I VVS2).

Regarding the H SI1 w/ haziness, how often in a real life scenario would that haziness come up? I was told it was really in spotlight lighting situations but frankly I haven't had much experience w/ diamonds in real life settings.

The inclusions in the G S1I seem a bit too visible for me and I don't think I'm getting that much better of a color improvement. Though, when I zoom out my browser to 25% like you suggested, you really can't see any of the inclusions here from an eye level.

 

[sledge]

Yeah I didn't mean to throw you a curve ball. Those were my thoughts with price too. It's larger and better clarity and because it's ES, it's still within stretch. I wouldn't go seeking VVS2 clarity necessarily but if it dropped in your lap I wouldn't complain either, lol.

I think either the 2.168 or 2.321 will be great choices. The color difference really is minimal, at least with the 2.168. Assuming that 2.321 is similar or better color than the 2.168 then you have a really tough call to make.

In regards to the H and "spotlight" lighting, I think we need a definition of spotlight. My wife and I go to a restaurant that has overhead lights that create a "spotlight" effect. I'm particularly sensitive to this as I don't like to sit under those lights as they mess with my eyes. Also, if my wife is near one of them and particularly her ring it is like a disco ball throwing fire all over the place.

My point being there may be more "spotlights" than you think. Really what we are saying is that anytime there is an intense light shined on the stone, it is going to appear hazy. I don't like that personally. But honestly, my opinion doesn't get to spend your dollars, lol.

 

[Jyt1022]

No, by all means I appreciate that last stone you threw in and I just requested WF to take another set of photos/videos. If the color comes back similar to the 2.168, I think I'd lean towards your 2.321 stone. for a few grand more you're getting something much larger and clarity.

Your explanation of "spotlight" is helpful context. Those are way more common situations and having to "explain" the haziness to her or others isn't something I want to do. I can rule this one out based off that alone. Good call.

 

[Jyt1022]

Here are the latest photos from whiteflash comparing the new stone!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0w3CyR8gf4

Personally, I'm not sure I can notice a color difference between the 2.168 I VS2 and new 2.321 I VVS2. Nor do I see a huge cut improvement given the 2.321 isn't technically ACA.

I'm debating between the 2.168, 2.321 and 2.068G SI 1. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

 

[sledge]

In this last round of photos, the G appears more white. It appears there is minimal difference between the H and two I stones. And the I stones look very, very similar.

I agree to eliminate the H stone. Not sure if you noticed or not, but even in this last video it started getting that blue haze and none of the other stones did that. I couldn't live with that.



Assuming I color isn't too warm for your girl, I'm still sweet on that 2.321 I-VVS2. Great bang for the buck, fantastic clarity, you get the larger stone, you receive the same exact perks & trade program as an ACA -- all for a slightly reduced price.

FYI, here's you a new comparison list:

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/compare/?idnos=4312096,4273464,4107634,4189819

 

[Jyt1022]

Thanks, I agree the blue tint is a non-starter for me. I asked them about it and they said it was due to the haze.

I'm not going to lie the G, I find myself gravitating towards the G and how white it is relative to the others. Not sure If I or my girl would be able to pick up on that in an isolated real world setting when there are no other stones to compare it against. Tough call but leaning towards the 2.321 VVS2 you suggested at the moment.

 

[sledge]

I understand the dilemma. The G is solid. Love the color and big fire. Either are very solid choices. Just depends what you (and more importantly, your girl) values the most. Size or color.

 

[Jyt1022]

Agreed, size vs color. You do pick up clarity on the 2.321 as well so definitely a hard pick!

Really appreciated all your help along this process.