AGS Releases New Cut Grades for Rounds

[valeria101]

The mention of "exams" and "pupils" and "grading paper" is just ironic, no ?

And what is the "cut group master stone" already !

Don''t mean to bother you. Since the thread is out in the open chances are I''ll actually read it. Just did.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 2/10/2005 6:36:18 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Paul, what if there were to be a ''cut committee'' of people from different labs, as well as scientists and even cutters?

(PS - have you re-graded my paper yet?)

Hi John,

As far as cut is concerned, probably the majority of the labs is not willing to adapt their current system.
As far as cutters are concerned, we are the exceptions, that are concerned about cut.

In the end, I do believe that any change should benefit the customer, and should be embraced by them. In this way, I prefer the current system, in which labs all grade in a different way.

AGS (and possibly GIA) are adapting now, not because of the pressure of labs, scientists or cutters. I think that the main pressure comes from consumers, who have picked up their education on sites like this, then put pressure on intelligent retailers, who turned this possibility into unique businesses, and in this way, it is a fight between labs to remain the number 1.

As for re-grading your paper, did you pay your last exam-fee?

Live long,

 

[strmrdr]

Paul iv been thinking about your response above about whats driving the cut grading b the labs.
And want to throw something out for comment.
Its just some random thoughts on the matter could be right could be wrong could be partially right :}

The cut fanatics and those that sell in that market are doing fine and have built a pretty nice thing together.
Im wondering if the drive for improved cut standards isnt more for the sake of the rest of the dealers wanting a piece of that pie because its gotten too big to ignore.

I can see AGS's in particular cut new cut grading actually hurting those dealers in the super-ideal market place by giving others ammo to play in that area without the hard work.
I dont see the gia grading as a threat because they seem to have sold out and there cut ratings are going to be less useful.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I don''t think GIA has sold out Storm, they are trying to find a way thru a political quagmire. Did you read this italicized comment from their newswire?

Most of the panelists agreed that the Internet has been a major driver of premium-cut diamond sales. They said that measuring light performance of a diamond will become an important sales tool for store-based retailers because it can be easily demonstrated to consumers. Some noted that measuring light performance can also be applied to fancy shapes and proprietary cuts that are not yet graded for cut quality. http://www.gia.edu/newsroom/issue/2798/2299/insider_newsletter_details.cfm#1

GIA and all other labs are looking for ways to grow their grading business, or hold onto it.
Take IGI for instance - they offer a large range of options for different types of certificates, just as AGS do. You can have the lot, or just a little or no cut grade info. GIA only really do this for colorered diamond reports (no clarity or cut info - just evidence of natural color.

But while independant labs can meet market demands, like IGI has many different products with H&A''s photo''s down to just color and clarity grades, GIA feels it must issue cut grades on all of its new reports. That will put GIA under a huge amount of pressure from manufacturers who will simply send their off makes (the vast majority of diamonds) to other labs.

Remeber that GIA would cease to exist as we know them now if it were not from their huge grading business.

So what GIA will try to do is teach the manufacturers to produce BIC''s and FIC''s that can increase the yeild of some rough - and all the other labs will naturally have to come up with grading systems to fight for the same business.

BTW President of GIA, Bill Boyajian, is giving a presentation in India next week. I will be there

 

[strmrdr]

Garry im not sure if sold out is the right word but i do get the impression that they kept the top grade too lose compared to AGS to keep the cutters happy.

Also notice the order they put there list in.
"Fulfilling Our Service – to clients, students, alumni, and the public"
Gia gives me the impression that thats pretty close to the order of importance to them.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Makes cents

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 2/13/2005 6:38:14 PM
Author: strmrdr

The cut fanatics and those that sell in that market are doing fine and have built a pretty nice thing together.
Im wondering if the drive for improved cut standards isnt more for the sake of the rest of the dealers wanting a piece of that pie because its gotten too big to ignore.

I think that it has become too big to ignore in another sense. AGS is an association of jewelers, studying hard on the AGS-criteria, and defending them. Because of this, these retailers are generally regarded as the top-retailer in town.

Now, these specific retailers are faced with new research and new information, and customers challenging the validity of the current AGS-report. Basically, it shows that the research, upon which the current report is based, is outdated.

Therefore, I suppose that it is only logical for AGS to have reviewed the new research, to have found it valid, and thus to adapt their way of reporting. This also strengthens the position of all the AGS-jewelers.

Date: 2/13/2005 6:38:14 PM
Author: strmrdr

I can see AGS''s in particular cut new cut grading actually hurting those dealers in the super-ideal market place by giving others ammo to play in that area without the hard work.
I dont see the gia grading as a threat because they seem to have sold out and there cut ratings are going to be less useful.

Yes and no. In the case of an well-educated consumer, he will have more possibilities with more retailers. Correct.

But most consumers walking in still need to get the basic education. And for super-ideal-dealers, education started by convincing people that the current way of grading was incorrect. That is a time-consuming and difficult task. The educational and thus selling-process becomes a lot easier if one can start with a correct cut-grade of a reputable lab. In this way, it is definitely a win-win-situation.

At the same time, it takes away a lot of incorrect competition. Now, you have to compete with dealers, that offer steep-deep AGS-0''s, or GIA EX-EX with the simplest possible Sarin-info, or any cert with a nice Brilliancescope, or any cert with a nice Idealscope. Also here, on Pricescope, more than 80% of the dealers have a ''super-selection'' that would not qualify for super-ideal.

That competition will be a lot more difficult, once the new AGS-reports come out and are accepted by the public. And this will be to the advantage of the real super-ideal-dealers.

I hope that this was somewhat clear.

Live long,

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

While you would rate in the top 1% of communicators Paul, I can tell you wrote this after indulging in some exceptionally fine wine with Sergey

AGS and our friend Peter Yantzer admitted many years ago that the orinignal method was flawed, but until they found a better approach, it was the best possible at the time. Was it puuurfect; no. But it was the best they could get past the COMMMMMIIIITTTTEEEE.

Now the average joe jeweler who is the best mostest upmarket trinket flogger in town (ie AGS jeweller), he has to re-learn all the stuff he learned when Mom And Pop sent him on a junket to California. Does he want to? Does he have the brain power?

 

[valeria101]

Date: 2/14/2005 9:53:32 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Now the average joe jeweler who is the best mostest upmarket trinket flogger in town (ie AGS jeweller), he has to re-learn all the stuff he learned when Mom And Pop sent him on a junket to California. Does he want to? Does he have the brain power?

I didn''t know you were such an optimist, Garry !

Why would any sane seller - jeweler or no jeweler - learn something their customers would not be able to understand over a short chat

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/14/2005 12:42:20 PM
Author: valeria101

Date: 2/14/2005 9:53:32 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Now the average joe jeweler who is the best mostest upmarket trinket flogger in town (ie AGS jeweller), he has to re-learn all the stuff he learned when Mom And Pop sent him on a junket to California. Does he want to? Does he have the brain power?

I didn''t know you were such an optimist, Garry !

Why would any sane seller - jeweler or no jeweler - learn something their customers would not be able to understand over a short chat

Because more and more customers are demanding it.
They either keep up or get left behind and scream about it.
That is one area where the internet vendors have a huge advantage they can use their web sites and forums like this to educate customers or have them get feedback from other educated consumers or industry experts.
This takes a lot less of the vendors time than actualy educating consumers in the store.

It is going to take continuing education to keep up in the diamond industry.
The days of getting a GG and being set for the next 20 years learning wise are over.
Its a pattern that has been happening in a ton of fields the jewellery industry is actualy
pretty late in getting to that point.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 2/14/2005 3:5:18 PM
Author: strmrdr

Because more and more customers are demanding it.

Ok... it's not that such knowledge leads to chasing bargains or advert rip-off half truths off the bat. Actually, I am amazed these cut standards are this good - allot less precision might have served as well, and it seems to have served every conceivable commercial purpose for quite a bit of time. It's not like some consumer class action came up with them, no ?
It's not that it took weeks on end to read through the cut details, but it just happened some useful knowledge was already there and that took allot more than weeks to put together. How long should it take to make an informed buying decision

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 2/14/2005 9:53:32 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
While you would rate in the top 1% of communicators Paul, I can tell you wrote this after indulging in some exceptionally fine wine with Sergey

Hey Aussie,

Thanks for the compliment. When are we going to indulge in beer again? And then check whether it has an effect on the quality of our posts.

Now the average joe jeweler who is the best mostest upmarket trinket flogger in town (ie AGS jeweller), he has to re-learn all the stuff he learned when Mom And Pop sent him on a junket to California. Does he want to? Does he have the brain power?

Well, even if he does not have the brainpower, he will not be bothered anymore by educated consumers coming in, questioning the validity of the AGS-report. Even if he does not understand a thing, 0-cut will probably perform clearly better than 2, and it does not take a lot of brainpower to understand this order.

So, the new system will definitely be an advantage for him. At the same time, I think that I have made it clear that the new system will also benefit the dealers of super-ideals.

The problems will be for those that try to sell super-ideals and ideals without an AGS-report. There will be almost no way to deduct the correct AGS-cut-grade from any general measurement.

In a year from now, my advise to any consumer, asking for my opinion about the cut-quality of a non-AGS-graded diamond will be: ''Have the seller send the stone to AGS for a report. That will take 5 working days, plus a few days for shipping. If AGS gives the 0-grade, like your seller says, pay for the stone and the extra report. If AGS grades the stone in another way, make your own decision whether you still like the stone.''

I wonder whether many dealers in GIA- or EGL-stones will take the risk. To start, it is very difficult to be sure whether the stone will get the 0-grade. Also, there is the serious risk of the GIA F-VS1 returning as an AGS G-VS2, or anything in between. Wouldn''t that be an eye-opener?

Live long,

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The appraisers here will be shaking in their boots Paul - they will be redundant - reduced to drinking beer by the beach

I agree though; that the new system means a diamond with a measured set of parameters will only be AGS 0 if it has been pronounced such after it has been examined in their ASET-scope, their fire do daddy and perhaps run thru a 3D scan and DiamCalc.

It remains to be seen if AGS will make any of these tools available to the general public.
But it is a better business plan than letting Sarin and Ogi offer a defacto AGS 0 grading.

I still think that stones that look good from 14 - 16 inches that will get AGS 2 have some benefits

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 2/14/2005 8:35:26 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
The appraisers here will be shaking in their boots Paul - they will be redundant - reduced to drinking beer by the beach

I can handle that.

It''s pretty much what I do already...

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 2/14/2005 8:35:26 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
I agree though; that the new system means a diamond with a measured set of parameters will only be AGS 0 if it has been pronounced such after it has been examined in their ASET-scope, their fire do daddy and perhaps run thru a 3D scan and DiamCalc.

It remains to be seen if AGS will make any of these tools available to the general public.
But it is a better business plan than letting Sarin and Ogi offer a defacto AGS 0 grading.

a little more on this - I believe AGS Members as well as the AGS Lab will be able to issue AGS grades.

There will be AGS and Trade versions of the software. So non-AGS appraisers will be able to grade stones using the new system, but not issue AGS grades. So Rich you might need to stay sober until at least lunch time

I also believe there will be some desk top toys for loking at purty things

The AGS plan is to roll out all its new toys and software and instrumentation at the AGS Conclave in April of this year.

Wish I could be there

 

[RockDoc]

Thanks Garry

Certainly interested in all and any new toys....

Should really be interesting to see what they''ve come up with.

Rockdoc