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almost got kicked out of a mall jewelry store today...

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So Scott, why have you sudennly arrived and spent so much time here?
You are just a regular nice guy? Out to help everyone?

I semi agree with you on many issues, and dont mind many of your slightly imflamatory statements either (all good fun).

But for instance, to say that IGI is this or that? You have read the survey results? IGI stones are discounted; right? EGL USA stones are discounted; right?

The bigger question is "are second tier lab graded stones a rip off because they may be more softly graded than GIA graded diamonds?"

If you read the 16 - 17 stone lab survey we just conducted, you can find that there is a good chance the so called rip off stones can be bargains
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On 8/19/2004 2:37:09 AM yowahking wrote:

So don't let the group on this site that are selling convince you that I am such a bad guy, I just have information from all angles with no pitch. I am not trying to sell you, just offer opinions to help you.
Scott----------------
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First, I am a consumer. Second, I said nothing to you about "selling" your services. Third, please *never* email me again w/ a nasty tone. It is an infringement upon my privacy.
 
What has the high-tech age done to all of us? Now there’s even bad chemistry in cyberspace?

We better go back to writing letters with a quill pen if we can’t play nicely with the keyboard.

Supposedly, everything I need to know I learned in kindergarten. "Diamontology" (I hate that word, I'm just trying to be clever) is the exception to that rule!
 
Ben Bridge Jewelers, in my opinion, is the best "mall" jeweler there is. To buy in or to work for.
 
First apology to Ideal Rock, I only emailed you privately because of the comments that were way off track and some had chosen to sling mud my way without knowing anything about me and had the wrong idea. I never meant anything to be nasty, not my style, smartass yes. I just thought emailing and clearing the air privately with each was better to move on to better topics and help those on the forum who really are asking for help.
 
Jennifer, yes Ben Bridge is one of the better mall stores, well funded by the 2nd richest many in the US and much better store than his other chain. The original Ben Bridge stores were better I think, it is hard to keep the same type of store when you duplicate it 40 times. No one has the same interest as an owner would, and sales staff and managers come and go. I knew the original family. They do a good business here with the Rolex, and higher grade diamonds than most of the mall stores, although, they are pretty easy to beat on price. Internet sites and discounters will force them to change at some point. Probably close many stores. They are not as high brow as Tiffany's and will have a hard time justifying the markup's in a few years. Mall rent is the killer, my rent is 6800 per month. THe closest mall to me would be $22,000 per month for the same size store, and I would have to add $15,000 per month in payroll to keep the hours. With the volume overrides that the malls get, I would pay $80,000 in extra fees per year for my volume. You have to do a lot more business just to break even.
 
Yowahking is right for the most part, although I agree that he's obviously a smartass
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Most Internet vendors aren't any better than most mall stores because they drop-ship and don't know their diamonds. Of course, telling that to the PS audience isn't going to make much of a difference, because if you look at this site for two minutes you'll easily find the names of the top 5-10 Internet vendors available. We don't worry about the others around here, because we know where to shop.

Yowahking, you've got a great personality I'm sure, but you'll be better received if you follow the stellar example set by other vendors on the site and avoid talking yourself up all the time. You're not in Arizona anymore, Dorothy...these ain't your average waiter-turned-mall-diamond-salespeople around these parts.
 
Wow, why do I spend so much time here.
1. As PRes of AJA, my promise to help as many jewelers that try to be good jewelers get better. For those who know me, I help dozens of jewelers each week with sources, ideas, education, etc.
2. I enjoy learning, including what other "experts" have to say. Some on this site David Atlas, Richard, KB GEMS, we have mutual friends and I know some about them and have respect for most people.
3. I learn from the public about what they like and don't like about stones and jewelers.
4. I like to dispell things that are totally one sided thoughts. I have been a gem dealer, a manager of a mall store, and independent store now, I travel the world, I win awards, I speak on many topics to the idustry, and I know some things about colored stones that most appraisers don't because I never stop learning in THailand several times a year. Most people in this industry are in their own little bubble and have only one perspective on things. I can support many sides of a topic or bash many sides, depending on who is too far to one side. Mostly in fun.
Last, I like to talk to people. A few things in my life have reminded me to enjoy my time here, money comes and goes.
 
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On 8/19/2004 1:32:33 PM kkeen15 wrote:

Of course, telling that to the PS audience isn't going to make much of a difference, because if you look at this site for two minutes you'll easily find the names of the top 5-10 Internet vendors available. We don't worry about the others around here, because we know where to shop.
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I agree whole-heartedly with this comment. Pricescope has the premier internet vendors. You can't do a google search and find vendors that offer the same information, pictures, and prices on one Website. That is why so many have gotten up in arms. It is almost like a slap to the face when we hear such harsh comments about internet vendors, but yet through pricescope we are working with the best! There are always those who come here asking about other vendors, and many change their tune once they take a look around here.

I don't know how familiar with or how much looking around Scott has done with the pricescope vendors. He must realize that probably 99% of the shopping done by people active on this forum are with these great vendors. We all came to pricescope and learned where not to shop.
 
To address you comment on bargain stones. Yes. Sometimes I send a stone to EGL because I can not wait for GIA and the cut is good but not an AGS type stone. I have no problem with EGL,USA. If I don't agree with the cert, I tell people that this is a stone that I think is an SI2 but they called it SI1. I bought it as SI2 so I will sell it at that price. We all know that the price between SI3 and I1 is huge on a 1ct. So when you see an EGL Isreal cert with SI3 and you know it is really I1, you offer I1 price. But the consumers do not know all of this, so often they pay strong SI3 price, that is wrong. Same goes for IGI stone where the cutting looks like it was cut by a drunk guy but symmetry says good. That stone should be 35% below rap, and yet it sells in XYZ store for 20% over RAP. Customers should kwow how to shop and how to compare. That is all I am saying. I have bought IGI stones that were great, not very often. I toss the cert and send it to another lab, so that it has enough information to make a customer feel ok.
 
Scott, I don't think you're a bad guy. Good information is never a bad thing. I just thought the statement to never buy an IGI stone was a bit harsh. I agree the consumer should be educated. That's why we're all here, right?
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If the forum really is about helping consumers find the best jewelery, diamonds, jewelers, internet vendors, etc, than answer two questions. 1. Why not let the public know about how to find better prices on rings that some designers charge insane prices for when the same mounting can be bought for 1/3 the price? I have seen customers drop desiner names and then post a simple ring where we in the business know the cost to make it.
Second, while I have checked out many vendors on this site and agree that the quality is way above the average, it is not the only way to get a diamond. There are downsides to shopping that way, and the mere mention of ways to insure that you are getting the best diamond possible, brings an overkill of ruffled feathers that take out of context the message and only hear what they fear that they hear. Since I am not trying to do business on this site, shouldn't the consumers hear from someone who is different from those who are either selling wanting to sell?
 
Part of the reason that feathers are being ruffled is that many Pricescope participants engage in groupthink. Much of what many here know about diamonds has been learned here. These people, in turn, pass their knowledge on to new posters, so the thinking tends to be monolithic. Don't take it personally. I, for one, am glad to see you participating.
 
Scott -

Why not make a post explaining the best way to buy jewelery then. Where do we go? What do we do? How are we going to get the best price on a diamond and still have the information to back it up?
 
I'm glad you're around, too, Yowahking. I'm nobody special, just a consumer-turned-diamond-lover. I'm also interested in learning more of what you know, like wonka suggested above. Just throw it out there; PSer's will gobble it up!
 
OK Wonka and KKeen, here goes a teaser. Let's just put away comments that ruffle some for now. First decide what it is that you want. Do you want quality, price, flash, original design, quick, rare,? (many others but you get it) Let's say that you want price, that is what is #1 for men. My first advise is not to be too focused on price that you get played, like the NY find the pea game. No matter whether it is local or internet, the more you know the better. So let's say that you want to spend $5000. If you want to be really cheap, you could get a diamond that is clarity enhanced, there are new players in that field and prices have come down. Not my thing, but one of my friends does the new treatment in Isreal and can't sell them fast enough. Next option if you don't like doctored up stones is how many combinations are in your price range. You can print off price lists like Rap that you can see 15 different combinations of grades and sizes that puts you around $5000. If you don't know how to use Rap, 5 min you will get it. What most consumers fail to grasp is how to use price sheets and how to add or subtract for cutting quality of each size and grade. Maybe 15min and someone could explain that to you. Now you need to see a few. You are armed with some basic knowledge that a 1ct whatever costs the same as a 1,25 ct whatever. Now time to see how they look to you. There are no shortage of diamonds in this country. If the list price is $5000 and a store is telling you $4000, $25% under Rap is on the low side, that is either good, or maybe the stone is not graded right or cut poorly. Make notes on anything you can. Now if the store tells you $8000, also make notes but unless it gently massages your finger while wearing it, problably not worth the extra $3000. Now look on line, again no shortage of sites. If confused, try to find an independent appraiser to ask a question to, they may also have a suggestion as to where to buy. Listen to everyone, someone is right. There are some sights that sound similar that offer advise. Findmyjeweler.com is pretty good at selecting a jeweler in each city that combines price, quality, service etc. Findajeweler.net (or maybe org)any jeweler can call up an list himself, No checking done. If you think that you have found a good deal, give all the specs to someone else, see if they can match it. Ask if they own the stone, some jewelers just borrow from dealers, some internet sites just post lists from dealers. If they own the stone, it will most likely be there again the next day. If it is borrowed, or on a shared list, things get moved around a lot. Once you find the one, pay the appraiser that you have now used for advise and have it appraised. Do not accept an appraisal from the seller. Do not accept an appraisal from someone who has no degrees next to the signature. A good appraiser will have several. A G.G. only learns about gems, not how to value them. Every state has good appraisers.
If you like any of this, I will give you more. If not, we will move on.
 
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On 8/19/2004 2:12:42 PM Superidealist wrote:

Part of the reason that feathers are being ruffled is that many Pricescope participants engage in groupthink. Much of what many here know about diamonds has been learned here. These people, in turn, pass their knowledge on to new posters, so the thinking tends to be monolithic. Don't take it personally. I, for one, am glad to see you participating.----------------
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This is simply not true in my case. Just because someone has a disenting voice doesn't make it true.

Not *every* jeweler wants to handle only 8*.

Diamonds on Polygon have not been passed over by all jewelers. If so, then why are many jewelers upset by the listing of stones? Some jewelers will only deal with dealers not listing stones.

My diamond was not set in China or India. Rest assured, most people's diamonds are not set there.

All mall stores carry junk.

And, to make my voice disenting - the world is flat.

To add, one earns respect. One doesn't tout credentials & gain instant credibility.
 
Not to rip you, but there was nothing in your teaser that I didn't already know. Some of us have been gobbling up virtually every post for months or years, so we already know the basics and more. I suggest you change your method for using this website to increase business from bragging to sitting back and helping when you see the opportunity. Its more effective in the long term, ask others in the business on this site. Also, when you have some time, read old posts. You'll get a better picture of the type of consumer you're dealing with here.
 
Kkeen, If my response was too elementry for you, no problem, I can get as technical as you wish. From your message and Wonka's I had no idea what level of education or interest you have. Fire and Ice is more fire and suggests again that I am trying to sell myself. Again, not true. Have I ever tried to get the many people looking for diamonds to buy mine? No. Have I ever suggested that the colored stone people buy mine? No. Have I tried to custom make a ring for anyone? No. I privately emailed someone who is a collector of a certain rare stone which I also collect, and let them know that I have some extras if they wished to add to the collection. Not because I need the money, just sharing with someone of same interest. Any mention of credentials are to back up that I am not some guy with only an opinion. The industry has many levels, and while I am not at the top yet, there are more below me than above with understanding of who, what, where, and $$$. I never said or implied that center stones were set in India or China, but most mass produced jewelry is made there whether the low end like Walmart or the higher designers. I have been to the factories and know many people who sell designer rings with all mellee set over there because of price of labor. I have some things made there also. I just know the downside from customers who wonder why diamonds sometimes pop out of mass produced pave. If all of you know the answer, then I don't have to get into it. Regarding pricescope or polygon, they may be better than the average site, but If you really think that a consumer who buys one stone a lifetime or every few years will be the first to look at a diamond from a direct importer, you are wrong. A jeweler or internet dealer may buy a few million from a particular importer, he will go to his best bet to sell it quickly, then to the next, and after a few no's it either sits in his inventory and waits for a call or it moves to the next level which is often another dealer or internet sites. Some jewelers are very upset that their diamond supplier is selling direct to the public. Some dealers sell only to the trade, some internet sources are just brokers, some actually own the diamonds, some jewelers compete very well with the internet, some can't some just don't. My best friend just got back from Isreal with about 24 million of 1-8 cts stones. I don't claim to own them, so I don't post his inventory list, but I know I will get a good price if i need one. I don't really care who he sells the ones I don't want to. I do know much about who he sells them to and what they do with them. So, just as I should not assume what you all know about being a consumer, don't assume you know what my intentions are and what I know. I will continue to try to help people and thanks to those who have privately emailed with questions.
Scott
 
Scott,

Firstly, welcome to pricescope. I would like to add my name to the list of people who value your comments and your efforts to support the cause of high quality stores in Arizona.

As I’m sure you know, 85% of the fine jewelry business still occurs at the storefronts. This is because it’s easy, it’s fast, it’s relatively painless, and it’ comes with at least the illusion of good service. Your advise to consumers about how they should buy a diamond is fairly good but it all revolve around making themselves as much of an expert on diamonds as possible, as quickly as possible. This is simply not the desire of the most customers. They want to buy a bauble that will make their beloved happy and then to get on with their lives without getting ripped off in the process. You’ve already said that most stores are not a good deal and many are just plain terrible. How should a customer go about finding and doing business with a store in their home community, or on the internet for that matter, that they can expect to treat them fairly? It’s hard to know who to trust. There’s a lot of sharks out there and they tend to talk a pretty good line.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver
 
Thank you Neil, I made a couple calls and you have a good reputation there. I may be able to send you some business as I have many customers in Denver if you give me more info about what you do and don't do.
If any customers are looking for good jewelers, there are many ways to sort out the good from the bad. I will be happy to assist with any customers who really want to find good jewelers, I will help. I have written many articles for the Arizona Relpublic on how to shop for diamonds or find a good jeweler without a plug for my store. What I don't want is to figure out who really wants information and who is waiting to challenge my thoughts. If anyone wants something, be specific and I will help. Like I have said many times, not trying to sell things on this site, push my site, or get a job. I would like help understanding why I can remember the kid's phone number who sat next to me in 1st grade but forget to order something by the cutoff time today. Just tring to lighten things up.
 
Scott,

I appreciate your endorsement. Thank you.

You didn’t really answer my question. Perhaps it’s not a fair question due to the time and space constraints of the forum. You surely will concede that the jewelry consuming public has great difficulty sorting the good dealers from the bad, both online and on the street and that this leads to problems for everyone. This is a fair amount of the value of pricescope. Deadbeats don’t last long here. The consumers on the forum are staggeringly well educated and they look out for each other with great enthusiasm. There isn’t actually a problem with you or anyone else promoting their businesses as long as it’s kept within reasonable bounds. It’s no secret who’s selling and who’s buying here and personally, I don’t think you’ve pushed this limit. This thread has become quite popular with readers who are looking for a taste of blood but for it to be really valuable it would be helpfult to include some information that they can apply to their own shopping experiences. Unfortunately, asking you for assistance when the occasion arises isn’t really practicable. Again I ask, how should a customer go about finding and doing business with a store in their home community, or on the internet, that they can expect to treat them fairly?

Perhaps you could repost one of your Arizona Republic articles, or excerpts from one for the benefit of forum readers if it won’t cause a copyright infringement issue between you and the magazine. You obviously have something to say and I’m sure that it would prove to be interesting, entertaining and helpful. Perhaps there is a link available online through Arizona Republic that you can suggest to us.

As annoying as it may seem, people who wish to challenge your thoughts are helpful to the educational process as well. Defending your position forces a certain clarity to the thinking process that is otherwise difficult to arrange. It keeps you from making sweeping generalizations that are difficult to defend. Some of the people here tend to get a little hot about certain issues but they are pretty much all interested in propagating the truth to the public, something that has unfortunately been lacking in our industry.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver
 
Sorry I did not think you were really asking for the how to now. I can take pieces from part articles and sort them out for what this site may find worthy. If the majority of customers are savy, then we may have to take it up a notch from the articles main themes. I assume by your address that you are familiar with Arthur down in Springs. He and I were talking about how the industry needs a real how to book on finding a good jeweler. Even if you buy a diamond on the internet, most want a local jeweler to set it and inspect it now and then. Engrave it, appraise it. (one of my biggest beefs is bad appraisers). Not to mention the quickie gifts for birthdays or to prevent trips to the couch. Single guys don't get this one yet. I will put together some ideas and post it. Some of the younger crowd like my 21 year old son, buys 90% of everything on the internet. My parents can barely use email. I would also like to post the pro's and cons of dealing with locals and the pros and cons of dealing with the internet. I can handle when B&M stores get bashed on this site, many of them I am trying to get out of the business. What my challenge is so far that certain things are very tough to talk about when the emailers have a very narrow view of the industry. A person will spend countless hours worrying about a 1% table measurement, and then buy a designer setting that costs $600 to make and sells for $2500 and no one seems to think this is odd. Some who sell diamonds have never worked in a store, used a torch, set a stone, taken an appraisal course, but offer expert opinions on them. No one thinks that is odd. Some are so hush hush about who they are, why? Is the internet so scary that we can not use names, or whether we are in business or consumers? I am just learning here, but getting things out in the open would make it easier to help those who really want prices, sources, or just some fun chatter.
 
Scott, while I did find some of your generalizations rather harsh and unfitting of the vendors we see here on pricescope, I don't doubt your intentions. You seem to be a reformist, and to me, that would be wonderful. It would be nice to walk into a jewelery store down the street from me and see the best of the best in diamonds, and know I'm getting an excellent deal. I certainly welcome your input, but remember many here are not novices. Those who come here to learn, make great strides in diamond education. We've learned what to look for, and many have made stellar purchases at prices below our B&M stores at home.

I know I certainly would like to hear more about the other aspects of jewelry here (settings, labor, etc.) as I think these topics are not necessarily discussed in the same light as the diamonds are. Diamonds are always posted and scrutinized for performance and cost, but when we talk about the settings, etc. it is more often to speak of what is nice or not. Or, if it is too expensive, where a copy can be found or made. I'd love some consumer education into settings and labor. How do we go about getting the best deal? Will it be harder if we take our own diamond to be set? This can be a facinating and revolutionary topic, as some settings can cost several thousand dollars. While I plan to set my g/f's ering in a simple solitare for $200 including labor, it will be an eye opening experience for myself and many others. When you get the time, start a new thread about a subject like that. It will be fun to read about
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scott,

you have the whole class room in attention. but you have yet to start your presentation.
 
mr scott bohal,




when looking up your website www.treasuresforyou.com i read the following on your homepage:


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[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]At Treasures Custom Jewelers and Diamond Brokers...[/FONT]

We Give You "G" color diamonds for the price of "J" color in the malls.



We Give You "VS" clarity for the price of "I1" clarity in the malls.



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...President Arizona Jewelers Association and the above text are not compatible...too good to be true, deceiving...? robbe

 
Robbe,
While you are now the 2nd person to post my web address, I have not. My kids tell me that it is a weak web site and 2 others are being developed. Posting one of my phrases on there is challenging my ability to back it up. Since you have no idea of my business practice, I will not debate it. You are welcome to contact the 3 top appraisers in AZ ( Bob, Sindi, Craig )and ask their opinion of my business ethics or pricing if you really are interested. Some appraisers on this site also know them and can verify their credentials.
Competition is separate from my position with the organization. I am helping the new store across the street from me get into the organization and gave him some tips on how to survive as it is his first store. I try to get the chain stores to have their employees come to seminars to learn more about gems than just selling them. I help other jewelers learn to promote and advertise. It is ok if you don't agree with what I say, you have the right to discuss or ignore. The implied tone is not needed because I am not trying to sell you anything. Privately, I would be happy to support what ever you think is not correct. This site offers that ability.
 
dear scott,


when clicking on your avatar, your website shows...you put it, not me.


when i will meet you i will perhaps find you are all you say...meanwhile i find too many words in your texts...


in other words, no need to justify so much; your homepage-slogan is deceiving, whether your kids tell you the site is weak or not has nothing to do with anything...


regards, robbe
 
robbe -

You appear to be digging and digging, but uncovering nothing.
 
carmel dear,


i am neither looking to uncover nor am i digging.


i, we, who sell diamonds every day know that the following slogan is deceiving to the public:




We Give You "G" color diamonds for the price of "J" color in the malls.



We Give You "VS" clarity for the price of "I1" clarity in the malls.



...especially if it was written by a Jewelers Association's President.



do you grasp?



robbe

 
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