An Intreasting Email @ Iraq

[AGBF]

Date: 6/10/2005 1:07:05 PM
Author: Feydakin
But, if we should never have been near Havana, leading to the war with Spain,wouldn''t that have also allowed for the soviet union to have successfully completed the installation of nuclear missles near that very same location??

He was talking about the Spanish-American War in 1898, Steve.

Deb

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 6/10/2005 12:18:39 PM
Author: widget
I almost think GB is too stupid to grasp such ''big picture'' concepts.


PS: Fire&Ice: Could you elaborate on your comment about ''building military bases LIKE WE HAVE IN OTHER COUNTRIES''? Sorry...I didn''t get it..

Quite a few people believe that. In fact, I call him Scoots - as in Scooter boy. I can easily envision him scooting around the White House on a scooter hollaring "WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE".

But, others believe he is extremely intelligent. Didn''t they just compare GW & Kerry''s transcripts?

...like we have in other countries - in other words having military bases in other countries is something that is not unusual. And, may be a way of closing the base in Saudi A that has been a Bin Laden rallying cry for his cause.

 

[movie zombie]

richard, very succinct and to the point...and much appreciated.

i have long known that the US military is a corporate functionary. the interest of the US are always defined as freedom but freedom always means let our corporations do what they want or else.

go to the marine war memorial in washington dc and have a slow walk around it. note the dates and the places mentioned. particularly note how many times we''ve gone into some of the countries listed. then do a little research as to what was going on and why we were really there. breaks my heart.

and while i am no fan of george bush, i do not underestimate him. it is easy to dismiss him as a yahoo cowboy but he has grasped an ideology and is dedicated to it. he is the most dangerous man on the planet.

re neo-cons: yes, the US carries the big stick right now but one day we won''t. no empire lasts forever. how will we feel when the ''neo-cons'' of another country decide to walk hard and carry the big stick? the neo-con philosophy just reeks of gangsterism taken to the global level. what ye sow, ye shall reap.

peace, movie zombie

 

[movie zombie]

Mine, yes, reparations. do you really think those missing millions of dollars that halliburton et al. can''t account for in iraq have gone to benefit the iraqi people?! the iraqi people had hospitals, educational facilities, etc. before we invaded. we destroyed them. we have an obligation to rebuild them. but how does one put a $ value on the loss of a father, mother, sister/brother, etc. 10 years of bombing and sanctions followed by a war based on lies....priceless.

peace, movie zombie

 

[MINE!!]

Date: 6/10/2005 1:44:13 PM
Author: movie zombie
Mine, yes, reparations. do you really think those missing millions of dollars that halliburton et al. can''t account for in iraq have gone to benefit the iraqi people?! the iraqi people had hospitals, educational facilities, etc. before we invaded. we destroyed them. we have an obligation to rebuild them. but how does one put a $ value on the loss of a father, mother, sister/brother, etc. 10 years of bombing and sanctions followed by a war based on lies....priceless.

peace, movie zombie

Who decides which family get how much money.. Your sister is worth 200$ your father is worth 500.. reperations are tricky.

 

[movie zombie]

Mine, yes, it would be tricky......on that we can agree.

peace, movie zombie

 

[rubydick]

Date: 6/10/2005 1:00:49 PM
Author: fire&ice

Date: 6/10/2005 12:07:23 PM


I can''t imagine that ANYONE would think FOR THE MOST PART - Westerners - and their way of life & Jews are Al Q''s & Mullahs PRIMARY targets - aren''t we the infidels? . You don''t have to go past THEIR OWN RETORECT (SP?) to get that. Again, cheers when Nick Berg''s head gets lopped off????? Cheers to bringing down the WTC???? But, please don''t even imply that those people were guilty. I''m completely unsure why Ann Coulter has to be brought into this discussion. I have no idea if she is anti-semetic. I quite frankly have never read ANYTHING by her. - oh, except when she came to my town and someone threw a pie at her. I don''t understand her relevance to the discussion - Honestly - what''s your point?

Re: Neo Conservs. - I am fully aware of how long this agenda has been out there. George the first wasn''t on board. Clinton wasn''t on board. And, in their own admission, George the second wasn''t on board UNTIL after 9/11. And, in the end NCon were pretty forward thinking in many of their assumptions.

My whole point - You don''t have the answers. I don''t have the answers. History will determine it. In the end, I would very much like to believe things will have a positive spin. Naive? perhaps - but a much better place to be than to question EVERYTHING this admin does with vinegar. If dubba adopted an abandoned puppy - somehow it will be an evil doing.

Again, bigotry has no religion. Muslims got along just fine with both Jews and Christians until a political act, the founding of the state of Israel.

Dubya was on board with the neo-con thing long before 9/11. Just ask Paul O''Neil, who said Bush discussed removing Saddam in the very first cabinet meeting in Jan. 2001.

You seem to be fixated about the demise of Nick Berg. Do you know why he was killed in that manner? See here:

Blotto in Baghdad

And here:

Shock and Awe

I warn you, some images are graphic. Note that all predate the killing of Nick Berg.

 

[ammayernyc]

Again, bigotry has no religion. Muslims got along just fine with both Jews and Christians until a political act, the founding of the state of Israel.

Are you saying that the founding of Israel was a bad idea?

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 6/10/2005 5:50:03 PM
Author: AmandaPanda
Again, bigotry has no religion. Muslims got along just fine with both Jews and Christians until a political act, the founding of the state of Israel.

Are you saying that the founding of Israel was a bad idea?

That''s my take. Of course, someone must be to blame - and certainly not the hate that the Mullahs preach has any blame.

Also, what part of lopping off Nick Berg''s head to CHEERS do you not get. I''m not fixated on the manner - I''m fixated that people would CHEER such a tragic violent death.

I don''t know what perfect world you remember. I know of second generation Persian Jews who were forced out of the region.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 6/10/2005 5:34:51 PM
Author: Richard Hughes
Muslims got along just fine with both Jews and Christians until a political act, the founding of the state of Israel.

Well...this is not, in my opinion, strictly accurate. I see the turning point as being the end of the (very tolerant) Ottoman Empire and the rising nationalism in Turkey as well as the growing Arab and Jewish nationalism after World War I.

I know I haven''t explained this well-just thrown it out there-but I would be glad to describe what I consider the movement from Muslim tolerance to less Muslim tolerance if anyone cares.

Deborah

 

[movie zombie]

deb, time for another thread?

peace, movie zombie

 

[AGBF]

Date: 6/10/2005 5:34:51 PM
Author: Richard Hughes

Blotto in Baghdad

And here:

Shock and Awe

Believe it or not, since I do not watch television or read blogs, reading about this and seeing the pictures was shocking. I knew that war must have this face, that bombs cannot fall without consequence, but I had never been exposed to such an intimate account before I looked at this. I suppose it is good for me to see it. I don''t know. I wish all of America could see this face of the war. The worst image I have let myself see so far: the older man crying. He could be my father and his sadness is so absolutely desperate.


Deborah

 

[AGBF]

Date: 6/10/2005 6:08:45 PM
Author: movie zombie
deb, time for another thread?
peace, movie zombie

Sure...any time. Start one if you wish. I will be glad to participate, although perhaps not right at this moment. I just got off the phone with Steve with whom I spoke for an hour. (At least he said it was an hour; it didn''t feel that long!) Then I read part of the blog Richard posted. I don''t feel very perky after reading about what it was like to be in Baghdad during the bombing . (Steve, I had a blast talking to you, though!)

Deb

 

[movie zombie]

deb, i was refering to your possible post re the lessening of muslim intolerance.

peace, movie zombie

 

[movie zombie]

and if you [the rhetorical ''you''] don''t have much to do and feel the need to do some readin, here''s a 1st hand day by day account from a resident here in the santa cruz mountains and private citizen that went to iraq just before ''the war'' started:

http://inlet.org/wade/

peace, movie zombie

 

[movie zombie]

ok, i''m in tears now...i looked at the ''shock and awe'' link. please tell me about the great future this babe has in store for him/her. tell me how you would feel if this were your chlild. i know how i''d feel.....and i know what i''d do about it.

peace, movie zombie

 

[rubydick]

Date: 6/10/2005 6:05:36 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 6/10/2005 5:34:51 PM

Author: Richard Hughes

Muslims got along just fine with both Jews and Christians until a political act, the founding of the state of Israel.

Well...this is not, in my opinion, strictly accurate. I see the turning point as being the end of the (very tolerant) Ottoman Empire and the rising nationalism in Turkey as well as the growing Arab and Jewish nationalism after World War I.

I know I haven't explained this well-just thrown it out there-but I would be glad to describe what I consider the movement from Muslim tolerance to less Muslim tolerance if anyone cares.

Deborah

Deb is correct, the problems with Muslims and Jews began before the foundation of Israel. The rise of the Zionist movement corresponds with Muslim discontent with Jews.

I have no real opinion on the creation of Israel, no more so that the annexation of Hawaii by the US. It is a done deal.

For those who wish to learn more about the issues in Iraq from an Iraqi perspective, you can do no better than to read Riverbend. I've been reading her for a couple years now, and she is amazing. Indeed, I've posted a number of her items on my blog, Dogskinreport.com.

Riverbend

And for those who would like to learn about the Middle East in general, check out the London Independent's Robert Fisk. Frankly, I'm surprised that nobody has capped his ass yet. He is the best:

Robert Fisk

I'm sorry that I had to send out the link to those pictures. I've tried to keep this discussion civil. But it's not only Iraqis who need shock and awe.

I viewed all the pictures about a year ago. My reaction was not a lot different from anyone else's. Page by page, I went through them, tears increasing with every bloody image. This is the real face of war, which is why it is kept so well hidden. F&I expresses outrage about the treatment of Nick Berg. If I had never seen these images, I would also feel as she does. But having seen the other side, my perspective has shifted.

And that's what this is all about, isn't it? Perspective. So easy to hate someone, until you understand things from their perspective. Suddenly everything's changed, suddenly what you thought was so right has just disintegrated into unfathomable shades of gray.

As Sy Hersh said when discussing the pictures from Abu Ghraib, one was enough. They had hundreds to choose from, but decided to publish just one. One was enough. You either get it or you don't.

So I will put up just one image. It is mild compared to the others. But for me, this one says it all.

 

[movie zombie]

richard, my fear is that those that need to look at these photos won''t. yes, perspective is what it all revolves around. and as long as the human perspective is overlooked, kept hidden, ignored, and downplayed, we will not understand why we may be hated in this world.

peace, movie zombie

 

[movie zombie]

so childish: i''ll trade you one beheaded westerner for how many de-armed babies?!

peace, movie zombie

 

[MINE!!]

ADBF... Do the pictures in your link change.. the ones for Shock and Awe? What I see is a dead infant under a heading of justice. Were they talking about (The Marine Corp) the injustice down to this child through the euthansia? By Saddam''s regime?

 

[AGBF]

Date: 6/10/2005 10:20:45 PM
Author: Feydakin
Yes, you are.. How many Kurdish babies were murdered?? How many babies all over the world are murdered by their own people every day??

Steve,

The pictures of the effect of the bombing in Iraq are important because they put a face to the war we started. When we heard about "smart bombs" and how beautifully and precisely they could hit military targets, we were led to think that Iraqi civilians were being spared while the instruments of Saddam Hussein''s war were being destroyed...with precision.

We had no control over what Saddam Hussein did to the Kurds. I mean, the President didn''t go to Congress and ask if Congress would declare war on the Kurds. That was done by *another* country.

Jacob Riis wrote, "How the Other Half Lives" in the Progressive Era. It is really his photographs. It put a face to poverty for Americans. It is still considered an important book for that reason. I see this compilation of photos as similar: it just shows a reality that many of us do not see. One about which *OUR* country can do something since it is our war.

Deborah

 

[MINE!!]

edited

 

[AGBF]

Date: 6/10/2005 11:21:18 PM
Author: MINE!!
ADBF... Do the pictures in your link change.. the ones for Shock and Awe? What I see is a dead infant under a heading of justice. Were they talking about (The Marine Corp) the injustice down to this child through the euthansia? By Saddam''s regime?

I have not yet looked at all the photos in "Shock and Awe", Mine. I looked at those that showed up in the first link Richard posted. I have only started to look at the "Shock and Awe" ones.

Deb

 

[AGBF]

We were apparently writing at the same time. Confusion.

Deb

 

[AGBF]

Date: 6/10/2005 8:45:33 PM
Author: Richard Hughes

I viewed all the pictures about a year ago. My reaction was not a lot different from anyone else's. Page by page, I went through them, tears increasing with every bloody image. This is the real face of war, which is why it is kept so well hidden.

Our government is also keeping another face of the war hidden: our own losses. The current administration has not allowed photographs and video footage of the caskets of returning soldiers to be taken because it knew it would upset Americans to see how many people we were losing in the war. Far from protecting the lives of soldiers, the administration has tried to prevent popular sentiment about American losses to affect the way Americans view the war. The Vietnam war was ended when Americans could not bear to see American casualties on television every evening.

Deborah

 

[MINE!!]

I would like to post these sites...

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/saddam/photo2.html

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/saddam/photo4.html

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/saddam/photo9.html

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/KO%20News/18-12-03-halabja-people-want-saddam-killed.html

And most importantly... Here is another group of pictures

http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html

These are pictures that we all need to look at too.

 

[fire&ice]

Again, my check as well.

What started as something positive has to be disenigrated to pieces - like nearly everything ever positive posted about the world or any individual. Man, am I glad I don''t live in a shroud of negativity.

So, to recap. We, the US - especially this present Bush Administration, are to blame for everything bad on the planet. Bush is brilliant and crafty - yet stupid & dim. The negativity is deafening. To add - Henry Kissinger is an evil man. The Pope was an evil man. Nope, neither should garner any respect. And, when all else fail, the Jews are to blame with the creation of the Israeli State. When that bombshello chip falls, a diversion is then spawned to create another thread to "sensitively" debate when the "Muslim Intollerance" - love that one - I would insert "hatred to the point of wanting every Jew dead" began. All that needs to be said is that us "westerners - specifically the US" has everything coming to us.

Since it''s all my fault, I will revert to my blind patriotism & organized religion to guide me through.

Oh, no that would be my arrogance.

 

[MissAva]

Date: 6/10/2005 11:35:21 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 6/10/2005 8:45:33 PM
Author: Richard Hughes

I viewed all the pictures about a year ago. My reaction was not a lot different from anyone else''s. Page by page, I went through them, tears increasing with every bloody image. This is the real face of war, which is why it is kept so well hidden.

Our government is also keeping another face of the war hidden: our own losses. The current administration has not allowed photographs and video footage of the caskets of returning soldiers to be taken because it knew it would upset Americans to see how many people we were losing in the war. Far from protecting the lives of soldiers, the administration has tried to prevent popular sentiment about American losses to affect the way Americans view the war. The Vietnam war was ended when Americans could not bear to see American casualties on television every evening.

Deborah

Or becuase that would be a horribly tacky thing to do and disrespectful to those who are mourning the loss of a loved one.

 

[movie zombie]

parents have requested to be present when the casket of their son or daughter arrived here in the US. they have requested to be able to take pictures because they want to honor their dead. their request has been denied.

this thread reflects exactly how deeply divided this country is. any evidence that the US has participated in immoral and illegal behavior always devolves into the pro-iraq war community accusing the other side of being anti-jew, anti-US, etc.

too bad: if we can''t communicate with one another, how do we think we''re ever going to help others?!

personally, i don''t want to hide my head in the sand. when i travel in europe and australia it is inevitable that someone will start a political conversation with me once they find out i''m an american. their knowledge of our history and political system is astounding...and their understanding of world politic also better than most american''s. the puzzlement that we as a people allow much less condone iraq [and other issues as well] is puzzling to them.

at one time, people in the world were able to separate out the actions of the US government from ''we the people''. statements were along the lines of ''i don''t blame the people in the US, i blame their government''. now i''m not so sure that is true.

peace, movie zombie

 

[widget]

Author: fire&ice
Again, my check as well.

What started as something positive has to be disenigrated to pieces

F&I:

I hope that this comment doesn''t mean you''re quitting the thread. I have really appreciated your thoughtful input...and learned some things.

Is this thread a mess? Indeed it is....but then passion is messy.

I just checked, and here are things I''ve googled since I started reading this thread: "Neocon", "downstreet memo", "wolfowitz", "clinton impeached", "british mandate".

As a result of this thread, I''m thinking more, and learning a few things.

I think that''s positive.

widget