Antique cushion vs AVC

[Harpertoo]

Hi,
I'm still lurking, reading, and learning.....I have a few weeks while my foot recovers from surgery so my future ring is my project. (I need a project since I'm more/less couch bound.)

I began the process thinking I wanted an Asscher or emerald cut. Now I've fallen hard for cushions. I realized what I love about the old stones I have is the chunky cut. I have a beautiful modern RB, but it sort of leaves me cold.....anyway, I'm planning for a melee banded solitaire. Probably Ritani in plat....so I'm budgeting around 17k for a stone. (Approx 20k total)

I have a size 7 finger and would like as much coverage as possible without a halo, and without sacrificing proper cut proportions. I was hoping to get to a stone around 8mm in width, but not sure if I can do that w/in the budget? I think I'm going to be comfortable sacrificing on color a bit...but I'm not sure if I should rule out old cushions and narrow my search to AVCs?

Any thoughts?

My concerns are the following :
1) Can I remotely (with pics & docs) adequately judge an antique cushion as well as AVCs via GOG using their video and assessment docs?
2) will a basic 4 prong solitaire setting be less desirable for an antique cushion with variable girdle? I'm thinking chips & potential for damage.

Any input would be appreciated!
Thanks!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

If an antique cushion had a very thin girdle, I would have it fixed before setting. I wouldn't want to have to worry about the girdle chipping.

I think comparison of antique cushions with AVC's is a great idea. Jon can get in stones from Old World Diamonds and other sources of old stones. I am partial to AVC's for the most part, but like antique stones, you are limited to what is available in your price range at any point in time.

 

[JulieN]

If you are working with GOG, their videos are great, and you can always ask them which is their favorite.

Chipping risk should be less with antique style, due to their higher crown angles... of course, after so many years, or one good thwack, any thing could happen.

 

[Harpertoo]

Interesting!
I had it exactly backwards! I assumed the antiques would be more prone to chips.

And diamondseeker, it never occurred to me I could have GOG compare an antique w/ an AVC in a video!
It's probably luck of the draw with what is available when I'm ready to go forward, but it sounds like my assumptions about antique stones have been a little off.

Thanks again!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Some antique stones, and maybe it was more common in OECs, had extremely thin girdles. Some are only safe in bezels unless the girdles are worked on to not be so thin. Maybe it is not as common with cushions, but it is certainly a factor I watch for in any stone.

 

[04diamond<3]

I wouldn't suggest getting your stone from GOG because their prices are ridiculous! Here's my example:

for the same size and similar clarity:

GOG: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/9205/ (doesn't give discounts)

JA: gives PS members a 1-5% discount on their already significantly lower prices:

1 - http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/2.01-carat-I-color-VVS2-clarity-sku-195030

2 - http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/2.01-carat-I-color-VVS1-clarity-sku-178358

And - as far as chipping, any and every diamond is always at risk of being chipped! If you do find a stone with a thinner girdle, then I'd suggest a bezel set or maybe an 8 prong to protect it. It's not necessarily garbage you just have to be more careful.

 

[ecf8503]

You have to take into account that AVC is a branded cut, so you are paying for the name as well as the guaranteed superb optics.

The JA's you need to get images of other than those shown - the second one looks dark under the table, but it may just be the angle. If you are interested in the JA's reserve them, ask the gemologist for a review of them. (Does JA do ASET's?)

 

[04diamond<3]

You have to take into account that AVC is a branded cut, so you are paying for the name as well as the guaranteed superb optics.

The JA's you need to get images of other than those shown - the second one looks dark under the table, but it may just be the angle. If you are interested in the JA's reserve them, ask the gemologist for a review of them. (Does JA do ASET's?)

Yes they do. And good point about paying extra for the branded cut. So that plus the high prices they already have.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Comparing apples and oranges. A GIA good cut round is going to cost a lot less than a same size H&A stone, too. Not to mention Good Old Gold has a far better trade-in policy than James Allen does. And people around here are known for sometimes changing diamonds! I'd pay the premium for an ideal cut cushion any day over paying for one with "good" symmetry. Some people value different things and that is fine. Some prefer larger size over color or cut quality. Others want the finest cut and are willing to pay for it. Nothing is wrong with either choice.

04diamond, unless you have bought diamonds from GOG, you really can't know what the final prices are just from looking at the website, either. Some may be at their lowest pricepoint and others are not.

 

[Harpertoo]

I really appreciate the discussion.
I'm attracted to the AVC based on style of cut and performance. Ideally I'd find an antique, but I'm not sure I'll have the patience for a lengthy search. I also appreciate the trade in policy w/ GOG and they do have a wire discount. I really have not heard anything negative about them other than the premium they capture for their proprietary cuts.

I don't want to sound as if I've made up my mind, but the posts I've been seeing about JA lately have not been great.

 

[04diamond<3]

Comparing apples and oranges. A GIA good cut round is going to cost a lot less than a same size H&A stone, too. Not to mention Good Old Gold has a far better trade-in policy than James Allen does. And people around here are known for sometimes changing diamonds! I'd pay the premium for an ideal cut cushion any day over paying for one with "good" symmetry. Some people value different things and that is fine. Some prefer larger size over color or cut quality. Others want the finest cut and are willing to pay for it. Nothing is wrong with either choice.

04diamond, unless you have bought diamonds from GOG, you really can't know what the final prices are just from looking at the website, either. Some may be at their lowest pricepoint and others are not.

I have worked with them. And especially in this case, there's no way they're going to come down 10k!!!!

 

[04diamond<3]

I really appreciate the discussion.
I'm attracted to the AVC based on style of cut and performance. Ideally I'd find an antique, but I'm not sure I'll have the patience for a lengthy search. I also appreciate the trade in policy w/ GOG and they do have a wire discount. I really have not heard anything negative about them other than the premium they capture for their proprietary cuts.

I don't want to sound as if I've made up my mind, but the posts I've been seeing about JA lately have not been great.

ERD has some great antique cushions. For 26k you can get a 2.5ct!!

http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/2.55-carat-g-si1-a-cut-beyond-cushion-cut-diamond-gid-114321.html

Things closer to your budget. ERD also provides videos and aset images. Personally the 1.67 has the best:

http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/1.67-carat-f-vs1-a-cut-beyond-cushion-cut-diamond-gid-106214.html

http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/1.50-carat-f-vvs2-a-cut-beyond-cushion-cut-diamond-gid-98719.html

http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/2.02-carat-h-vs2-a-cut-beyond-cushion-cut-diamond-gid-109137.html ( love the size)

Also, they make gorgeous halo settings!!! I also wouldn't worry about that thread from the JA customer who didn't talk to JA to work out the problem before ranting on this forum about it. This is the first time I've seen anything about their settings on here...but there are definitely no complaints about their stones and I still think you can get the best price from them. But ERD also has great things and I'd prefer them over the other.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I wouldn't buy the James Allen stone at ANY price unless it turns out to have an excellent ASET image and then I would certainly consider it. But from paper alone, the GOG stone is worth more because the cut is better. There's no possible reason that they would need to price-match an inferior stone.

I think the OP is able to decide what her parameters are and how to balance her budget with the cut quality she wants.

 

[04diamond<3]

I wouldn't buy the James Allen stone at ANY price unless it turns out to have an excellent ASET image and then I would certainly consider it. But from paper alone, the GOG stone is worth more because the cut is better. There's no possible reason that they would need to price-match an inferior stone.

I think the OP is able to decide what her parameters are and how to balance her budget with the cut quality she wants.

You're entitled to your own opinion as is everyone else. You have bought from GOG and obviously always want to recommend them. Just because you got your stone from them doesn't mean everyone else has to or should. Why should he/she buy from them when they can get a similar performing stone for 10k less?!? it's not necessary and a complete waste of money! You have absolutely NO idea what the JA stones perform like until there's an aset. Plus, I recommended the ERD stones and they look better and are still WAY less than GOG.

 

[Rhino]

I wouldn't suggest getting your stone from GOG because their prices are ridiculous! Here's my example:

for the same size and similar clarity:

GOG: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/9205/ (doesn't give discounts)

JA: gives PS members a 1-5% discount on their already significantly lower prices:

1 - http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/2.01-carat-I-color-VVS2-clarity-sku-195030

2 - http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/2.01-carat-I-color-VVS1-clarity-sku-178358

And - as far as chipping, any and every diamond is always at risk of being chipped! If you do find a stone with a thinner girdle, then I'd suggest a bezel set or maybe an 8 prong to protect it. It's not necessarily garbage you just have to be more careful.

I'm sorry 04 but you are dead wrong. We can and do sell for the same prices as James Allen when we are matching apples for apples. Your comparison above as pointed out by diamondseeker is not in any sense of the word an apples for apples comparison beyond simple facet structure. I have to wonder if you've ever researched what the price differences are from a diamond with GIA good to AGS Ideal optics?? The time and labor involved in cutting each? The amount of weight lost from the rough to acheive that goal? Before you actively steer people away from my business I would suggest you learn more about what you are steering people away from.

Let me also clarify. With August Vintage you are not paying for a brand name. My markup on them is not that much different from any other diamond we sell or feature. What is different is the cost to cut them. If you are sincerely interested in learning why certain brands cost what they do I am happy to help as would my cutter of August Vintage who also participates on this forum (Yoram).

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I wouldn't buy the James Allen stone at ANY price unless it turns out to have an excellent ASET image and then I would certainly consider it. But from paper alone, the GOG stone is worth more because the cut is better. There's no possible reason that they would need to price-match an inferior stone.

I think the OP is able to decide what her parameters are and how to balance her budget with the cut quality she wants.

You're entitled to your own opinion as is everyone else. You have bought from GOG and obviously always want to recommend them. Just because you got your stone from them doesn't mean everyone else has to or should. Why should he/she buy from them when they can get a similar performing stone for 10k less?!? it's not necessary and a complete waste of money! You have absolutely NO idea what the JA stones perform like until there's an aset. Plus, I recommended the ERD stones and they look better and are still WAY less than GOG.

I am going to remind you that it is the OP who mentioned AVC's and antique stones, not me. In my original post to her, I encouraged her to compare antique cuts, which usually cost less, to AVC's to see what she thought. Yes, I will always recommend GOG for top quality stones in fancy cuts, because I think they have the best selection and the best record of finding great ones for people. I have bought 3 diamonds so far from them, personally. I have also bought several top cut quality round diamonds from WhiteFlash and I heartily recommend them as well for ideal cut rounds and princess cuts. And because I have upgraded diamonds, I find the upgrade policy to be very valuable.

And again, I think the OP can compare different stones and decide whether she prefers top cut quality or very good with a lower price tag or a true antique stone. I'm not ruling anything out for her.

 

[04diamond<3]

I wouldn't suggest getting your stone from GOG because their prices are ridiculous! Here's my example:

for the same size and similar clarity:

GOG: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/9205/ (doesn't give discounts)

JA: gives PS members a 1-5% discount on their already significantly lower prices:

1 - http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/2.01-carat-I-color-VVS2-clarity-sku-195030

2 - http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/2.01-carat-I-color-VVS1-clarity-sku-178358

And - as far as chipping, any and every diamond is always at risk of being chipped! If you do find a stone with a thinner girdle, then I'd suggest a bezel set or maybe an 8 prong to protect it. It's not necessarily garbage you just have to be more careful.

I'm sorry 04 but you are dead wrong. We can and do sell for the same prices as James Allen when we are matching apples for apples. Your comparison above as pointed out by diamondseeker is not in any sense of the word an apples for apples comparison beyond simple facet structure. I have to wonder if you've ever researched what the price differences are from a diamond with GIA good to AGS Ideal optics?? The time and labor involved in cutting each? The amount of weight lost from the rough to acheive that goal? Before you actively steer people away from my business I would suggest you learn more about what you are steering people away from.

Let me also clarify. With August Vintage you are not paying for a brand name. My markup on them is not that much different from any other diamond we sell or feature. What is different is the cost to cut them. If you are sincerely interested in learning why certain brands cost what they do I am happy to help as would my cutter of August Vintage who also participates on this forum (Yoram).

Kind regards,
Jonathan

I am not dead wrong and yes I've done plenty of research and I still think you're prices compared to anywhere else for the same things are ridiculous. I attended GIA and know exactly what costs how much and whatever. I am absolutely not the only one to think your prices are outrageous (on this forum). The stones at ERD have similar asets and still compared to what you have are 8k less. I've watched plenty of you videos and won't deny that you don't have nice things, but if I can get an H&A stone from JA or IDJ for half the cost or even a significant amount less I absolutely will.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

A H&A stone for HALF the cost at JA???? Now that is absolutely ridiculous, 04. Not to mention telling Jonathan he is wrong about diamond cut and pricing. While ERD has some pretty stones, they are still not the cut quality of many of the AVC's.

 

[04diamond<3]

A H&A stone for HALF the cost at JA???? Now that is absolutely ridiculous, 04. Not to mention telling Jonathan he is wrong about diamond cut and pricing. While ERD has some pretty stones, they are still not the cut quality of many of the AVC's.

clearly not reading the other part of that sentence....but again, this is your opinion and obviously IDJ has the best prices. But I agree their upgrade policy isn't as great as other. And - I didn't tell anyone they were wrong about anything just the prices are too much.

 

[Rhino]

Hi Harpertoo,

I will gladly show you any diamond you want to see online, compare it in a video for you as well as our fully published web pages and if you choose the non AVC will gladly sell it to you for the lowest price you see published online. I think you already knew this about my firm but just in case you had any doubts.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[Rhino]

Interesting!
I had it exactly backwards! I assumed the antiques would be more prone to chips.

And diamondseeker, it never occurred to me I could have GOG compare an antique w/ an AVC in a video!
It's probably luck of the draw with what is available when I'm ready to go forward, but it sounds like my assumptions about antique stones have been a little off.

Thanks again!

Also for clarification Harpertoo... you didn't have it backwards. Genuine antiques ARE more prone to chipping as they were often cut with extremely thin to no girdles. All AVC's cut today have ideal girdles so no worries there at all. If we did go with an antique and the girdle was too succeptible for chipping we can have that polished to prevent that chipping too. In fact there will be times we strongly recommend that if that's the route you were taking. AND YES ... while I am mostly known for the branded cuts we feature many forget that we have access to just about everything on the market and no they do not cost astronomically more either. In fact in a lot of cases it can even be less. I haven't survived this long online (nor on this forum) because I take advantage of people. My reputation here has been earned by showing consumers why things cost what they do and helping them to understand our market a little better.

All the best,
Jonathan

 

[Dreamer_D]

Harpertoo

What are your priorities for this diamond? Is having a true antique important to you? Is maximizing the cut quality essential? Is size the number one factor?

There are so many variables when comparing different "types" of cushions. I can't possibly offer a recommendation for you without more information about your desires and preferences.

Regarding your specific questions:

My concerns are the following :
1) Can I remotely (with pics & docs) adequately judge an antique cushion as well as AVCs via GOG using their video and assessment docs?

I think the answer is YES. A lab report plus real phtos plus images will tell you a lot about a particular diamond. I am of the opinion that an ASET does not add much over what my eyes tell me, from photos video or in person, but others like it as another tool in the book. Antiques will not be cut as well as an AVC or other modern cut chunky cushion: Antiques will be less symmetrical both in outline and in faceting, they will likely be deep and face up smaller for weight, and they might have some under-table darkness. Truly perfect antiques are very very very rare. Many are being recut into modern stones to improve optics, actually, because consumers often prefer symmetric stones. Anyways, I am of the opinion that TRUE antiques should not be judged by the same criteria for perfection of cut as a modern stone. But if you want perfecttion, then a true antique is not for you.

2) will a basic 4 prong solitaire setting be less desirable for an antique cushion with variable girdle? I'm thinking chips & potential for damage.


For a true antique you will need to choose the best mount for its specific parameters. Many do need a protected mount style.

 

[04diamond<3]

Interesting!
I had it exactly backwards! I assumed the antiques would be more prone to chips.

And diamondseeker, it never occurred to me I could have GOG compare an antique w/ an AVC in a video!
It's probably luck of the draw with what is available when I'm ready to go forward, but it sounds like my assumptions about antique stones have been a little off.

Thanks again!

Also for clarification Harpertoo... you didn't have it backwards. Genuine antiques ARE more prone to chipping as they were often cut with extremely thin to no girdles. All AVC's cut today have ideal girdles so no worries there at all. If we did go with an antique and the girdle was too succeptible for chipping we can have that polished to prevent that chipping too. In fact there will be times we strongly recommend that if that's the route you were taking. AND YES ... while I am mostly known for the branded cuts we feature many forget that we have access to just about everything on the market and no they do not cost astronomically more either. In fact in a lot of cases it can even be less. I haven't survived this long online (nor on this forum) because I take advantage of people. My reputation here has been earned by showing consumers why things cost what they do and helping them to understand our market a little better.

All the best,
Jonathan

Jonathan, I'm sorry if I came off a bit strong. My intention wasn't to be offensive or tell you that you're wrong in how you do anything. I'm a deal hunter and thanks to DH, I'd rather look for a deal and a good deal than spend more money on something smaller. I didn't realize you did the bolded although I've heard others say that you call things in. I've heard bad things about having things called in too. If you do have other similar to the AVC's stones that are way less, then I will recommend you more often. Again, my apologies. I just hate to see people spending that kind of money for something so small.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

04, being a sometimes deal hunter myself, I will tell you that the last stone I bought from GOG was one that was listed on several sites including James Allen. In other words, it was owned by a supplier and any vendor that works with them could call it in. GOG called in the stone for me. It was my option to pay a little extra to have them run all their tests beyond ASET and also do a video for me. I think the cost came to a couple hundred more than JA's price with the same policies as JA. So I did know that what Jonathan says is true about pricing. But as many here know, I am interested in an AVR which is a specialty cut that carries a price premium due to the stones costing more to cut. If they don't get the right AVR in, then I may upgrade back to one of GOG's Superior H&A stones just because I think I prefer that (over my current one) for my forever stone. But the great thing for me not being able to see the stones in person has been the extra services that GOG provides to help me be certain of what I am buying.

 

[04diamond<3]

04, being a sometimes deal hunter myself, I will tell you that the last stone I bought from GOG was one that was listed on several sites including James Allen. In other words, it was owned by a supplier and any vendor that works with them could call it in. GOG called in the stone for me. It was my option to pay a little extra to have them run all their tests beyond ASET and also do a video for me. I think the cost came to a couple hundred more than JA's price with the same policies as JA. So I did know that what Jonathan says is true about pricing. But as many here know, I am interested in an AVR which is a specialty cut that carries a price premium due to the stones costing more to cut. If they don't get the right AVR in, then I may upgrade back to one of GOG's Superior H&A stones just because I think I prefer that (over my current one) for my forever stone. But the great thing for me not being able to see the stones in person has been the extra services that GOG provides to help me be certain of what I am buying.

DS - I understand, and this is all good to know! I had never asked for anything to be pulled and didn't go too much into the process and just went by what was available on their site.

 

[CopperTop]

04diamond you do come off a little strong at times lol You're very enthusiastic!

 

[Rhino]

Interesting!
I had it exactly backwards! I assumed the antiques would be more prone to chips.

And diamondseeker, it never occurred to me I could have GOG compare an antique w/ an AVC in a video!
It's probably luck of the draw with what is available when I'm ready to go forward, but it sounds like my assumptions about antique stones have been a little off.

Thanks again!

Also for clarification Harpertoo... you didn't have it backwards. Genuine antiques ARE more prone to chipping as they were often cut with extremely thin to no girdles. All AVC's cut today have ideal girdles so no worries there at all. If we did go with an antique and the girdle was too succeptible for chipping we can have that polished to prevent that chipping too. In fact there will be times we strongly recommend that if that's the route you were taking. AND YES ... while I am mostly known for the branded cuts we feature many forget that we have access to just about everything on the market and no they do not cost astronomically more either. In fact in a lot of cases it can even be less. I haven't survived this long online (nor on this forum) because I take advantage of people. My reputation here has been earned by showing consumers why things cost what they do and helping them to understand our market a little better.

All the best,
Jonathan

Jonathan, I'm sorry if I came off a bit strong. My intention wasn't to be offensive or tell you that you're wrong in how you do anything. I'm a deal hunter and thanks to DH, I'd rather look for a deal and a good deal than spend more money on something smaller. I didn't realize you did the bolded although I've heard others say that you call things in. I've heard bad things about having things called in too. If you do have other similar to the AVC's stones that are way less, then I will recommend you more often. Again, my apologies. I just hate to see people spending that kind of money for something so small.

Thanks 04. Many who at first frequent these boards think exactly as you have so I do understand where you are coming from. To be candid with you, I grew up in an extremely competitive atmosphere. My dad was a telephone repair man and my mom was so introverted she was afraid to even speak up. She didn't have her driver's license until after 30 and used to drive me to the bus stop for school on the handlebars of her bicycle. When they went into business they didn't know what to expect but found themselves surrounded by roughly 25-30 other jewelers who were more than happy to cut off body parts to take sales from them. My mom and dad instilled in me and my sisters a sense of love and care for our clients and we exalt customer service as 1st among all aspects as well as pricing, yet more important than pricing because providing the type of customer care that we deem as top notch does involve some investments, time & expense that other websites simply do not and cannot offer (if they continue to follow the business model they do). Our online business model is different and I like that.

You see, it is extremely easy for me to match and/or even beat online pricing when I am matching service for service and apples for apples in products but when consumers begin to understand the gemological features that impact value, they do in fact prefer our service even if it costs a little more to ship in diamonds and perform the analysis that we offer. In my humble opinion the beautiful thing about what we do is we give our clients the choice. We can sell as cheap as the cheapest site with 0 service or for a little more give our clients the peace of mind they are looking for because spending thousands online can be quite intimidating and fearful. What we do is remove all the question marks surrounding any given diamond and show our clients what GIA, AGS, photography, yes and even ASET's can't provide (although they contribute). Quite honestly it is 100x easier for me to do it without the shipping, video taping and editing, photography, reports and the tens of thousands we have invested in lab equipment but every time I entertain the thought of changing my business model I look at the amount of emails we get each day from consumers thanking us from the bottom of their hearts how much they appreciate what we do. Sure we are misunderstood and you will not be the last person who does but I am at least glad to see you have learned more about not only what we do but why we do it.

Kindest regards,
Jonathan

 

[Harpertoo]

Thank you for all the contributions - however painful.
I learn a great deal from these discussions! And I'm sure others do as well.

I was not looking for a specific diamond reccommendation today. I just wanted a feel for what the comparative compromises and advantages might be of a true antique cushion vs. an AVC.

I look forward to posting pics one day!
Again, I appreciate everyone's willingness to share their expertise & opinions.
Happy Valentine's Day!