Any major gem labs actually grading rubies?

[drruby]

la-icp-ms

I'm not into quartz

haha. you are slightly smarter than I thought. However... seriously??? la-icp-ms for quartz only? this is what you got from 5min googling the word "la-icp-ms" and hit the wikipedia button. There is only one mineral included in the wiki page. Guess what it is? QUARTZ!!!

In my knowledge this machine is used by some top of the line lab to determine alexandrite's origin for russian alex and be treatment.

Quartz... lol

I bet smaller lab require to buy the overly expensive la-icp-ms machine, coz I bet they receive tons of quartz everyday.

Here's some scientific data you won't find anywhere

The reason labs have LIBS is for Beryl you don't need the plasma tech for beryl, but in quartz the plasma is better.

Now the 'top labs' have already moved into SIMS.

I think the costs are like this

LIBS for beryl ruby detection around 50K or so

Plasma units for beryl and syn quartz is 300K or so

SIMS the real state of the art tech is 750K to 1M

So if you really want to see what labs are 'up to date' ask if they use SIMS yet.

I doubt many do.

Beryl is a problem and pretty much every 'lab' doing ruby certs has at least a LIBS

Now a major issue with beryl is that in Sapphires it has been found in both 'natural' and infused. So the more you start to look for treatments the more you see some stuff has been there all along. LOL

I think most labs are actually using the higher end tech from nearby universities and such and the whole problem with the Laser Plasma analysis is it destroys the sample since you end up with laser holes in the sample.

The safest analysis is still high powered microscopes with great lighting.

LIBS shouldn't damage samples sub LA-PL can.

I haven't heard of damage from SIMS yet but that tech is usually only in high end universities and or major research labs not gem labs.

 

[chrono]

FTIR does not detect all low heat, the fact is EVERY RUBY has been hit with heat.
Please provide a proven source to back up your claim.

I'm not a guy that makes a huge fuss over heat in rubies, it's a con game, oh this ruby has NO HEAT.
I am very surprised that as a serious collector, that you don't mind a low heat ruby. As a collector, if I am buying an untreated stone, then it had better be 100% untreated

Most labs don't use FTIR, a few do most test for high heat by looking at silk it's that simple.
This is why not just any lab is acceptable. Again, for all the rhetoric that you spout against the top labs, I am surprised you think all labs are equal in skill and equipment.

So heat has various levels to dealers and collectors. Now a low cost spectrometer can give you enough data today to say various 'levels' of heat, but that to me is fluff. Heat is over blown in the ruby world IMO, if it was high heat you can see that with a simple microscope IF you have the knowledge.
I am sorry but you are stuck in the 1900s. There are limitations to your simple tools and again, any serious collector worth their salt is very concerned about any sort of treatment, including low heat.

The only real issue I have now with new CG is Beryl and that's why high end CG now gets a cert, you need at a minimum LIBS to detect beryl and for ten times the dough big labs are now getting into SIMS for one thing BERYL.
Beryl is now irradiated.

My old rubies have no chance of beryl or even lgff, new stuff have some type of cert and the only reason I need them on new CG is beryl.
I do not understand your sentence. A ruby is never going to be a beryl. Both LIBS and SIMS are old tech. LA-ICP-MS is the new technology.

 

[drruby]

FTIR does not detect all low heat, the fact is EVERY RUBY has been hit with heat.
Please provide a proven source to back up your claim.

just go any ruby mine and you see a stone found, it hits bucket of water and then a master of the pit does low heat to look into corundum to see if any high grade level gem material is there, so low heat hits all rubies and it has for years

I'm not a guy that makes a huge fuss over heat in rubies, it's a con game, oh this ruby has NO HEAT.
I am very surprised that as a serious collector, that you don't mind a low heat ruby. As a collector, if I am buying an untreated stone, then it had better be 100% untreated

heat on rubies has been going on for centuries if not millennia, you don't know rubies it is obvious

Most labs don't use FTIR, a few do most test for high heat by looking at silk it's that simple.
This is why not just any lab is acceptable. Again, for all the rhetoric that you spout against the top labs, I am surprised you think all labs are equal in skill and equipment.

labs define heat and have for years as if it changed the stone and high heat changes silk, low level heat enhances color and the claims of NO HEAT are spurious

So heat has various levels to dealers and collectors. Now a low cost spectrometer can give you enough data today to say various 'levels' of heat, but that to me is fluff. Heat is over blown in the ruby world IMO, if it was high heat you can see that with a simple microscope IF you have the knowledge.
I am sorry but you are stuck in the 1900s. There are limitations to your simple tools and again, any serious collector worth their salt is very concerned about any sort of treatment, including low heat.

the only thing I can't say is beryl infused, period, I can say origin with as much authority as labs based on known crystal structures that have been known since the great work by Gubelein in the early 70's

The only real issue I have now with new CG is Beryl and that's why high end CG now gets a cert, you need at a minimum LIBS to detect beryl and for ten times the dough big labs are now getting into SIMS for one thing BERYL.
Beryl is now irradiated.

My old rubies have no chance of beryl or even lgff, new stuff have some type of cert and the only reason I need them on new CG is beryl.
I do not understand your sentence. A ruby is never going to be a beryl. Both LIBS and SIMS are old tech. LA-ICP-MS is the new technology.

rubies and sapphires are the same AL2O3 combination, one has chromium and the other titanium, both have been found with beryl treatments and beryllium has been found as well in 'natural' sapphire that's why it's a major problem for sapphires.

BE3O2 is emerald so BI on emeralds is a major issue to, what is natural and what was used to enhance?

 

[chrono]

Low heat is detectable by FTIR. The study is in a PDF linked in this article.
http://www.gia.edu/gia-news-research-low-temperature-heat-treatment-mozambique-ruby

As you can see, some inclusions are unchanged whilst others are not, therefore, observation of the state of the inclusions is insufficient to determine whether the ruby has been subject to low heat or not. LA-ICP-MS will be able to detect whether any additional minerals were added.

 

[drruby]

you do not use lasers on real gems

they burn holes in them

haha

does anyone here really know what they are talking about besides me?

haha

now if GIA is actually using that laser tech to say a high end ruby is whatever

IT IS A DESTRUCTIVE ANALYSIS due to the fact it BURNS A HOLE In the material

now come on, you really think a major ruby is gonna have a hole burned into it by GIA?

NO

they do that when they see a new treatment may be around and then they do it on low end stones to figure out what is going on

a real lab would never do even minimal destructive analysis to a major gem

just like those numbers on GIA flawless diamonds, the serial number makes them no longer IF or FL IMO

wow, if GIA is hitting high end rubies with a laser and putting holes in them, that's a class action waiting to form

please GIA tell us all if you are ruining high end rubies with laser holes?

haha

as to the serial numbers, ok an 'engagement' ring of flawed grade maybe you do it for insurance reasons

but to put a serial number on IF and FL level gems

haha

that ruins them in the opinion of many

 

[Cognition]

you do not use lasers on real gems

they burn holes in them

haha

does anyone here really know what they are talking about besides me?

haha

now if GIA is actually using that laser tech to say a high end ruby is whatever

IT IS A DESTRUCTIVE ANALYSIS due to the fact it BURNS A HOLE In the material

now come on, you really think a major ruby is gonna have a hole burned into it by GIA?

NO

they do that when they see a new treatment may be around and then they do it on low end stones to figure out what is going on

a real lab would never do even minimal destructive analysis to a major gem

just like those numbers on GIA flawless diamonds, the serial number makes them no longer IF or FL IMO

wow, if GIA is hitting high end rubies with a laser and putting holes in them, that's a class action waiting to form

please GIA tell us all if you are ruining high end rubies with laser holes?

haha

as to the serial numbers, ok an 'engagement' ring of flawed grade maybe you do it for insurance reasons

but to put a serial number on IF and FL level gems

haha

that ruins them in the opinion of many

unfortunately, gubelin use la-icp-ms as their standard method to detect beryllium. Since graff ruby has been submitted to gubelin, graff ruby has been suffer from FOUR (not ONE) humongous ~50 microns holes. poor graff ruby

let me guess, you will say "at least it's not GIA" or "gubelin won't do such silly mistake".

 

[drruby]

i seriously doubt Gube put laser holes into the graff

if they did

wow

they ruined a nice ruby

LOL

the only reason the Graff and the other big ruby that went for over 1Mil a carat at recent auctions got so much were they were 'almost' loupe clean

they had size, color and clarity very rare for a large ruby

IMO every ruby for over 800 years has been hit with some heat, the art of ruby cutting and fixing has always been LOW HEAT

now if SSEF and GUBE drilled holes into the graff

that would be major news

major

 

[drruby]

wow so I asked a phd in geology about LIBS and SIMS and the other device

his response shocked me

he says yes loupe visible HOLES are being now drilled into gems to test them with any of the 3 laser tools labs are starting to use

his words shocked me

they HIDE THE HOLES (.1mm to .03mm) in the girdle area

WOW

so that means loupe visible HOLES are being drilled into even FLAWLESS diamonds to test them

WOW

I think I need to contact Christies or Sotheby's and DUMP every gem I have now

that is a major problem to me, I DO NOT LIKE HOLES in my gems

so creating pits you can easily see in 'facets' is now being done in the girdle to prove what?

that alone is enough to make me say all GEMS are now not worth owning

thanks guys/girls I actually LEARNED something today

man is so stupid he is now making huge HOLES in flawless and close to flawless gems

WOW

that is 'news' to me and I thought I was very up to date on all this stuff

I've seen a ton of gems and bought some with certs

now I'm looking in the girdle for pits and yes if it has a cert it has several holes in the girdle area

WOW is all I can say

WOW

you know IF man had a technology to actually use large gemstones to do something lab perfect gems would be more 'valuable' in such a tech

maybe large GEMS grown in labs are now a better 'investment'

if you got to put huge loupe visible holes into gems to prove they haven't been treated, that fact alone is a treatment IMO

time to dump every gem I own

haha

WOW is all I can say

man is really that stupid

 

[Sphene]

 

[drruby]

you need to learn more about what heat does to inclusions such as silk

experienced eyes can easily detect heat treatments on silk and other inclusions

you can't polish off .1mm pits without resizing a stone

so if you had a truly flawless diamond at 10X do you really want GIA to surface carve GIA and a report number on your FLAWLESS there is nothing at 10x power carbon?

some large flawless stones can take up to a year to polish by experts

now how do you think those master carvers that spend a year of their life polishing a world class gem to perfection feels when GIA carves on their work?

destroying in a seconds what took a year for a master cutter to make and for nature to make in millions of years

I doubt most here can even understand or comprehend what these labs are doing to very, very rare stones

sure who cares about common small stuff that is all over the world

but a 100 carat FLAWLESS just sold, you think the dummy that bought it realizes it is no longer flawless due to a lab carving on perfection?

do you know how in the future humans will look at what this generation did to the Hope diamond putting moon craters all over it and say, you know those humans in the early 21st century running labs were absolutely morons

The fact is due to surface carving by labs like GIA there are now no such things as flawless grades since surface carving by GIA/etc are destroying perfect gems