Anyone aware of a similar site for pets? Marianne needs you!

[door knob solitaire]

Hello one and all,

I just came home to my two canine children and they are always wagging their tails so much they change the weather patterns! Their tails are long and upright about a 15 inches long. One of the girls' tail is well, it is now bent. As it leaves her back it is upright and normal and about 5 inches further it take a severe downward bend. The tip is also bent inward. She is still wagging it...it just looks limp...not the firm steady and true flag it always is.

I called a my vet...5 minutes prior to 7pm (closing) and she advised me to examine her for tenderness (or if break take her to emergency) and to adminster pain medicine. If no improvement in the morning to bring her in. In my examination she does seem to have a teeny bit of discomfort...but Not enough pain asscociated with a break in a spinal type bone. I began to turn it upright in its normal position...nothing...there seems to be no seperation in the vertabrae...it is possible that it is swelling...slightly...then I massaged it...nothing...a touch on the edges...I got a lick! I'm no Vet, but if it is not broken...what could it be?

Does it make sense that if a dog were in pain they could purposely allow certain muscles to relax...while the injury healed? That was another thought the Vet had...how can a dog mentally control the bend in a tail...ok vertabraes 10-18 you bend..the rest of you stay normal. Sound like wacky adivce to you?

If any of you are practicing Veterinarian or know of a forum like this...please reply. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Door Knob Solitaire

PS. On a Cold winters day...02-02-02 My husband found my 2 girls stranded on a island in a water retention pond. They were obvious throw aways...or "castaways"...one is strawberry blonde...the other is a brunette...So my husband named our stranded castaways...Marianne and Ginger. It is Marianne who needs your help...please reply.

 

[WTNLVR]

This does sound odd, but as there seems to be no pain, I''d watch her tonight and bring her to the vet in the morning and have it checked out. I have had really bad luck with emergency vet centers staffed by rookies. So, if it''s not an issue of a life threatening issue, I''d wait to go to my regular vet. I''ve heard of things like this with cats pretty often. Sometimes they have to dock the tail. Good luck.

 

[movie zombie]

depends on where you live if the emergency vets are rookies or not. if you''re anywhere near santa cruz, california there is a very very professional and reliable emergency group....same in los altos and i''m sure other places in the bay area.

however, i''m not a vet and i''ve certainly more experience with cats, but i had a cat with a broken tail and while the tail had to be amputated, it was not an ''emergency''.

your canine babies are so fortunate your husband found them and they have you both as loving caretakers.

peace, movie zombie

 

[widget]

Well...I have nothing to add...I too would wait until AM and take her to her regular vet if it doesn't feel like a huge emergency..

I LOVE the story of their rescue...and their names!

Perfect!! Is Ginger a blonde and Marianne a brunette?

Hope Marianne gets through the night comfortably...and keep us posted!

widget

 

[AndyRosse]

I''m so sorry!! If there is no pain, I would just monitor her through the night. Then bring her in to the vet first thing in the morning.

Otherwise, look for emergency vets. I have unfortunately had to bring Rascal to two different ones over the past year. If you can find an emergency vet that is open during daytime hours as a regular, large vet office, and open during the night hours and holidays as an emergency vet, I find that they have the best vets on staff. Usually one of their normal "daytime" vets is on all night long. Plus, they tend to have other staff there too. I liked the second emergency vet office so much that they are now Rascal''s normal vet office too.

Hopefully, you will not have to go tonight. But if I were you, I would take some time after all this is done to explore different emergency vets, just in case you need to utilize them again in the future.

 

[Mara]

One thing I read in the dog book we have is that dogs are attuned to ignoring pain and being very stoic because in the wild, the pack mentality is such that if an animal is hurt or shows pain that the others will abuse it and/or use that as an excuse to get higher in the pack heirarchy or similar. The book mentioned that animals are therefore very stoic to pain, not realizing that we won''t hurt them if we know they hurt but rather they are so conditioned and bred to be brave that it''s hard to tell sometimes just how bad a ''hurt'' is.

That said...Portia is pretty good about yanking a paw out of my hand if it''s tender and I''m examining it or if she has a cut or bite on her skin from playing too rough with her friends, if my hand finds it and probes it, I can tell when it bothers her and when it doesn''t. She pulls away or twitches when she does not want me to touch or probe at something. Other times she stands perfectly still...so that''s how I gauge her level of pain or irritation with something. So I guess you would know how your pet displays pain best.

P''s tail is very expressive and it moves like a whip, there are times when it''s straight out, down or straight up. Sometimes it slowly goes from straight to limp, or curls down under her butt when she is scared. I don''t know if they can move vertebrae in the tail separately from each other, but I do know that her tail seems almost impervious to pain. I did a little test once where I pinched the end of her tail between my fingers to gauge how sensitive she was (since she sometimes bites her tail with what looks like vicious chomps, and I was curious) and she didn''t flinch or move at all. She looked pretty bored. So it could be that their tails don''t have alot of nerves and therefore if something is wrong with it, maybe she can''t really FEEL it as much as say a paw or similar.

I wouldn''t worry about it tonite if she is not crying out or whining....just take her to the vet in the morning and monitor her through the night to see how her behavior is. The vet also has told me in the past that if they act normally, eat and drink normally...then it is probably not anything absolutely horrible because you would see their pain come out in their habits changing.

 

[ecf8503]

Hi Door Knob! Great name, btw.

I am a veterinarian, have been for years, worked in emergency and regular clinics, etc.

If you called me, I''d want to see your dog, obviously. Now whether it is an emergency or not depends on whether or not your dog is bleeding, has pain, is preoccupied with / distracted by / obsessed with the area in question, and whether or not you can see any evidence of neurologic abnormalities anywhere. Is he / she limping? Any evidence of lack of bowel or bladder control? If so, then it IS an emergency and she''d need to be seen sooner rather than later to rule out a spinal problem.

Do the dogs play fight with each other? Sometimes they can bite each other, and though you won''t find blood, it is possible a bite has occurred and infection has set in. Another possibility is that the tail is dislocated or fractured, usually the result of getting it caught in a door, etc. You''d be surprised what they do when we aren''t around!

That said, about 90% of the time when the tail is suddenly bent sharply at one point along it''s boney path, it is a fracture or dislocation. Most of the time the blood supply is not affected to the end of the tail and it will heal, but usually not straight. The tail is a hard thing to stabilize with a splint or cast, as they shake it off or pull it off.

When I saw your dog I would do these things: 1) check for blood, dried blood, punctures, etc - that may mean shaving some hair to look at the skin if your dog has a hairy, bushy tail. This would also also allow visualization of surface / skin bruising. 2) do a neurologic exam of the tail and the rest of the dog''s lower spine - testing leg reflexes, anal sphincter tone, limping, tail tone, and presence or absence of deep pain sensation in the tail distal to (toward the tip) from the area in question - this would let me know that there are no nerve problems anywhere. (I know you said you checked for pain, but this is your baby - you don''t want to hurt her - so chances are you didn''t press hard enough or move the area enough to really check) 3) take an x-ray - this would let me (and you) know if it is a fracture or dislocation.

What you mentioned about the dog relaxing specific regions is absurd - this cannot consciously or unconsciously be done - to me, that''s a "hmm...." statement. However - if there is a nerve problem (from a slipped intervertebral disc, for example, or an injury, etc) where the nerve is severed or severely swollen or compressed to the point where it cannot conduct it''s electric signal, then yes - a sudden loss of muscle tone / control downstream from the injury site can be seen.

So far, doesn''t sound like an emergency. But I would recommend having it looked at tomorrow. If you aren''t happy with the answers they give you, get another opinion. There are a lot of vets in Tulsa! Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.

 

[door knob solitaire]

Oh Thank you board. Thank you.

Wtnlvr: Thanks for the advice. I am in Tulsa...have only needed the emergency once before...but your post put the woolies in me. Never had thought about the rookies. I do hope the docking thing won't be necessary. The girls are littermates and are like two little bookends. When they greet me their tails are waving in unison. Like a metrodome. Not having one up there will be devastating. Lets agree to keep the tail. I see you have a Wheaton? Lovely dogs!

Zombie: We wish we were in CA, stuck in the the Sooner state. Oh gee, another comment on the docking. I so hope not. Marianne has longer maine on her tail. It is so beautiful wiith feathers. Thanks for your kind words about our caregiving. Yes. We no longer vacation because we can't leave them...too big and hairy to take. All decisions revolve around the children. Thanks for your support.

Yes Widget: Just like on Gilligans Island...Ginger is the Strawberry Blonde and Marianne is the Brunette. They are from the same litter, and have the exact silhouette. but M looks rottweillerish/dark guard hairs like a german shepard and G looks pitbull/yellow lab with no dark hair. Sounds strange that they look the same...but in the dark you can see their profile and they look identical. As pups they were EXACTLY the same golden yellow color. They were preteen pups when we got them. Thank you for your kind words. I shall tell Marianne of your well wishes.

Rascal: Great advice. We should always be prepared. Rascal must be really loved. (I too am a cat person-married a dog person-his only flaw) Thanks again.

Wow Mara: Thanks for such an extensive insight. My experience has been the same on the subject of examination. They will usually let you know if you go too far. You're right. I too have seen that chomping and wondered how much of that they could feel. I should focus on knowing she is probably not feeling any pain...I am just so attached to her beautiful tail...I just dont want to believe it is broken. However there doesn't seem to be any better explanation. I think you are right...it is an area not sensitive to that particular pain.

Per the boards advice, I did give her Zubrin, and she is resting peacefully all wrapped up in a blankie and resting her head on a fluffy pillow. She must think she has done something really great...that is she doesn't have a clue of any pain...she is dopey now.

Thanks for holding my hand...and Marianne's paw! You guys are the Best!

 

[door knob solitaire]

Oh ECF: Thank you!

The time you took in composing that post is so very much appreciated. It is a comfort having your knowledge for guidance.

To address your post...no distraction...no preoccupation...no obbsession. No limp...all systems working properly...appetite and bladder/bowel are running normally. Even eager to take her evening excursion. NO blood. No puncture. Agreed, I will shave the tail and look closer.

Yes the girls play hard. For some reason they have always assumed they were hired to protect our property...they do a VERY good job. Every noise...is charged at. If inside they plow through the dog door flap, if outside they do the same through the gate opening. SO, she could have wacked it on the upper hard surface of the doggie door...or on the hard metal of a fence post as she charged through the opening. Marianne just had TPLO surgery in February...healed with flying colors. We believe Ginger may have yanked her leg too hard, hence the damage. She hasn''t been rough with her since...however. Ginger is intimadated now.

I just reread your post...and it seems you are saying if it is a bone issue it can not be stabilized and therefore it will remain bent? The tail distal is also bent...if I didn''t know better I would describe the position of the tail bent but somewhat twisted...that would discribe the distal position, as it is not normail either. Is dislocation repairable? Is there such a thing as re-location?

If it is nerve or muscle...is there any hope of repair? Will the tail be salvageable?

If you are still awake and reading this...and willing...could you tell me if the tail is less sensitive is she is pain she is not expressing? And does it seem to you that the tail won''t be the same...no matter which damage it may be...nerve/muscle tissue or bone? Is there any hope of repair and restoration...or does it seem the issue is beyond that and saving the tail is what to shoot for?

I realize now this is not an emergency... have I done any further damage in postponing attention?

I thank you, from the bottom of my sensitve dog heart. I will take you examination check list with me to the appointment.

I realize my new questions may be an impostion on you...What you have already provided is more than I could have dreamed of this late of hour.

Greatful I am,
Door Knob

 

[movie zombie]

please let us know what the vet says in the morning! and i know it will be hard to do but try and get some sleep. and doggy pets for the Marianne...and Ginger, too, but extra ones for Marianne.

peace, movie zombie

 

[door knob solitaire]

Thanks Zombie...Marianne is comfy toasty tucked in bed...I on the other hand...am Bright eyed and bushy...oh...tailed. ohhhhh.

 

[ecf8503]

Good morning, Door Knob and Marianne!

I''m so glad to hear she seems to be neurologically intact (sorry if I sound doctor-ish, but it''s the way I''m trained to think / speak when it comes to medicine!

). That lessens my worries a lot.

Sometimes things are very straightforward, sometimes they aren''t. For your sake, I hope the problem is obvious once a doctor gets their hands on her. There are a lot of potential scenarios here, and I don''t want to worry you unnecessarily and I obviously can''t tell you what is wrong without seeing her. So far it sounds like whatever the problem is will repair / fix itself - whether it is a fracture, dislocation, deep bruise, etc.

I''ve seen broken tails, infections, tumors (God forbid, and very unlikely as this is acute onset), bruising / swelling, and penetrating injuries all cause tail problems. I''ve also seen a few cases where the tail is just limp past a certain point, and we never knew why, but over time it just went away / got better.

I''m very curious to know what your doctor says about all this. From a doctor''s point of view, let me just say that medicine is not an exact science - for all we know, there is more we don''t know, about how human and animal bodies work. Sometimes - despite exams, x-rays, etc - there just isn''t an explanation (I wish the animals could tell us "hey mom - I slammed my tail in the doggie door!"). Working on animals is about as challenging as working on a newborn - they just can''t tell you what is wrong / where it hurts, or why.

Now that is not an excuse to not try to diagnose the problem. (I only say this because there are vets out there that are better than others, more motivated than others, to do "all the right things".) That''s where your gut comes into play - watch them examine her. Watch if they just kind of grab her tail or if it looks like they are actually EXAMINING it - vertebra by vertebra.

When I examine a tail, this is how I''d do it: start at the TIP - pinch it (maybe with forceps to get a good skin pinch) - it sounds bad, but we need to make sure she can a) feel her tail and b) move her tail in response to the stimulation. This tests nerve paths from her tail tip to her brain and back again. Pinch progressively up the tail to the body if there is any evidence of lack of feeling or movement (helps to localize the site of injury). Look at / feel the skin itself for blood, bruising, swelling, etc. Palpate the tail, with both hands, from tip to body again, in an attempt to localize exactly where the problem / pain is, moving each joint separately.

An x-ray may be helpful, and may also put your mind at ease to know if it is or isn''t fractured.

Anyway, sorry for the "doctor-ese" tone. I know this is your baby, and of course wish you and her all the best. It sounds like she has a very loving, caring mommy, and that she''ll be in good hands. Please let us know what the vet says!

Christine



BTW, did the vet you will be taking her to today also perform the TPLO?

 

[Lorelei]

Hey Christine that is good to know we have a vet on board! Sorry Doorknob for hijacking - Christine are you in small animal practice or do you do large animal also? Doorknob I hope your baby makes a full and swift recovery

 

[ecf8503]

Small animal only - in fact, I''ve done just cats for most of the past 6 years, with a bit of work in an emergency clinic along the way too (dogs, cats, rabbits, geese, etc). Actually, right now, I''m not working at all. I was part time until August, then a full time person was hired in. I don''t want to work full time, as I have a 2 year old daughter that I''d rather be with!

 

[Lorelei]

I can understand that, the time must go so fast with a little human baby! I am plenty busy with my furry and huge horse babies, that was great advice you gave Doorknob and I know that will help her very much! It is such an anxious time when a pet is sick, as you know us anxious Mothers need lots of TLC too!

 

[njc]

Wow, i have to echo how wonderful it is to have a vet on here! Not that i can add *any* expertise (ecf/Christine has done a wonderful job at that), but my fur nephew, a yellow lab, sprained his tail a couple years ago. His tail was limp about half-way down, but you could tell he was in pain. It annoyed him not being able to wag it and he would kinda whine if you touched it. Like Christine said, there was nothing in the way of a splint we could use, but over time it got better and his tail is back to normal now! No crazy bend or anything.

Hope your baby is okay!!! Be sure to let us know!!!

 

[door knob solitaire]

Christine,

I really can't thank you enough...and I must say after posting my follow up post I was so embarrassed...because you truly addressed every rant and rave I was volleying back to you. The stress I was under made me NUTTS. No excuse for my post...but I think that may shed some light into my brain fade.

No apology needed for using techincal terms as you do...it does take a moment or TWO to wrap my layman head around those big fancy words, that come so easy for you.

The TPLO surgeon ( Dr. Paul Dean -he has become quite the pioneer in this particular surgery-very well respected in this field.) is by referral only. He said I am welcome to come back on any issue pertaining to the TPLO leg issue ONLY. But he is unable to address normal practice issues and that I must return back to the regular VET. The regular vet's first diagnosis was leaning towards the tumor...cancer issue as you mentioned on the leg. He treated her for 6 months before he switched to the next theory which was urlickia.(sp). I may have that procession reversed-actually I do Urlicka first then tumor. He was just refusing to believe the symptoms were the because of the cruciate ligament . He said the way she moved did not merit the TPLO. And that was why he refused to refer the surgeon-it was our insistence that prevailed.

Christine...I realize after her appointment today...we'll know better after a set of trained eyes and hands examine her...but I think it is possible that you are suggesting a slight interest in tying the two issues together? I am over the fear thing...so don't be concerned that your suggestion has me going in that direction. I just think it would be wise to be armed with as much knowledge and avenues that I can. I will insist on several ex rays.

Wow I really appreciate your presence here on the board. I realize I have forced you to open a can of worms...with your expertise...sincerely thank you.

DKS

Oh my regular vet is in emergency surgery this morning they had to reschedule me-later today.

 

[Mara]

Your vet is probably going to hate that you come in armed with all this knowledge...well depending on the type...kind of like a B&M jeweler whose customer is over-educated on the internet.

We had one vet for a while when P was small and she adored him, then we got a guy for one session because her regular DR was out of town...well she hated him and tried to crawl up my arm the whole time we were there. So next time the older DR was traveling again so I asked for another DR and this time got the female who was very sweet and P liked her for the most part...but it was funny to see the variances in the personalities and the ''advice'' that each DR gave. The gal was probably most open to things I have learned from books and and online re: food quality and behavior/training comments, but both men were more ''die hard'' on what they know being the most correct way.

Greg says ''Honey they are the DR''s....''

 

[door knob solitaire]

Change of plans... I called the specialist. He too wants to make sure the two aren''t connected. Thanks Christine! Our appointment is in an hour!

We''ll let you know.

Door Knob

 

[door knob solitaire]

Mara,

I agree. My husband said he same thing you did. I said it is the health of my dog I care about, not the offense of the doctor. I feel though, these Vets are a very special breed of people. They chose Veterinary medicine, the extent of knowledge they obtained is worth far more than the measely wages they garner. They have more interest in the welfare of our beloveds than we give them credit for. And all hours of the night too...Just like Christine and her detailed post.

A human doctor is trained to work on Human...there is the human variety...and then there is the human...oh that's right...only one variety of human. But a Vet deals with and knows EVERY species that creepith and crawleth and purreth and howleth. Just my two cents.

DKS

Oh, when he gives me my invoice...I will still howleth! Even though I know he is worth it!

 

[Mara]

Oh I feel the same way...plus I figure if I am paying the bill then I can speak my mind to the DR.

I just found it interesting that like anything else there was the new more forward thinking DR and then the older ones who were more tied to the 'old way is better' of doing things. Or their way is THE way. I think that the owners should also be listened to since they are the ones who are most in-tune with their dogs, all dogs are different and express themselves and things like pain in different ways too.

re: invoicing! Once when P was smaller, she was pretty sick, vomiting all day, strange poo, didn't want water etc. We took her into the vet in the afternoon after monitoring her for a day and they decided to do an xray. It was SO COOL to see her xray. The vet showed us all the organs and bones etc. Anyway she determined that nothing was stuck (she thought maybe she had eaten something that was stuck, P's piping is pretty small even though she thinks she's a big girl)...so we took her home and then later that night she passed some weird hard bone piece. So all of that for her to pass it later that evening! The bill for the vet visit was something like $500 thanks to the Xray. SHEESH. But at least we had peace of mind. And we got to see her xray.

 

[movie zombie]

an informed patient is a wise patient. you''re doing the right thing getting as much info as you can. the more you can discuss the issues, the better you''ll feel and more importantly the better care Marianne will get. some old school vets are like old school doctors: me daddy and i know best. i don''t go to such doctors and i don''t take my cats to such vets. but i''m lucky to have choices although i drive 20-30 miles through mountains to get to a good vet....refuse to use the local which is only 6 miles away.....we live in the boonies.

peace, movie zombie

 

[ecf8503]

While we''re waiting for news on Marianne, I just want to take this moment to say thanks to all of you for all the nice things you''ve said about (most) vets!

Here''s a quote I like: "A D.V.M. is an M.D. who is not limited to one species"

 

[door knob solitaire]

Oh fellow board and respected DVM Christine,

I am back from the Vet...you will all be pleased to know he gave both of us a shot and we are relaxing comfortably.

Ready for this? Took one look and said.....Limpy Tail. Uh huh...Limpy tail. Yippeee!! Ok here is the explanation. Many bird hunters who have pointers...return their dogs back to a kennel (bed/box) and after their explosive exercise they are resting warm and toasty and they awake in the cold weather with LIMPY TAIL. He said while extremely disturbing to see this dog who is ALL about his tail and the ability to use the tail...appear to ave a broken tail...it is just something the deal with. BUT good news!! It is not permanent it does no damage and the tail will bounce back. He himself is a hunter...(I don''t get that...wouldn''t you have the urge to repair the wound? Or attempt CPR?) anyway it happens to his dogs all the time. Said the tail appears broken...loose...not connected, but when inspected and ex rayed there is no damage.

Christine, as he was inspecting the tail...and he said "there is absolutely nothing wrong with this tail...she isn''t even aware I am touching it". He finished with a rigorous extension for my benefit and said rest assured there is no damage to the tail. He convinced me no ex ray was warranted.

Prior to the TPLO surgery it was a given she had acquired arthritis in that particular joint. The joint was inflamed and swollen (in the leg) and he feels the arthritic condition explains her limping this morning. Our weather dipped into the mid 30''s last two nights. So it is temperature related!! I panicked early because it appeared she was afflicted with something bigger than imagined. First the tail, then the limp in the leg this am...sounded nerve issue to me. So anyway, he sedated her, checked the "smelly area" glands...and then injected her with a steriod and glucosimine and something else. All to quell the inflammation of the arthritis.

She was still sedated and vewy vewy sleepy...a truck just pulled in out she went in a flash...wide awake and on the clock. The tail is up and erect to show the truck she means business...the little sleepy groggy baby turned and looked at me walking back in like a drunk...the tail went back down and I escorted her back to bed. But seeing the tail go up was so thrilling. I have tears running down my face. My baby remains whole!

Check in with the Vet on Friday...he is confident that it is LIMPY TAIL! Whew...I am getting vewy vewy sleepy the sedation is starting to work....nigh nite.

Seriously, one and all I thank you for your support, well wishes and for just being there!

I love you guys!!

DKS

 

[movie zombie]

so glad it was limpy tail! but you did the right thing in getting to the vet to get it checked out! sleep well....i have visions of you curled up with Marianne!

peace, movie zombie

 

[ecf8503]

Oh I am SOOOOO glad to hear that it was nothing major! "Limpy tail" happens - but one can never be too careful! I''ve been thinking about you guys all day, and I''m so pleased it appears to be "nothing". It sounds like she''ll be fine, and you can breathe a big sigh of relief too -

Best wishes, and plently of sloppy doggie kisses!!!