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Appraisal value vs resale prices for e-rings

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Joel0501

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 30, 2018
Messages
6
Hi I've been searching for a new engagement ring that is possibly preowned (new to me lol). I have gone through 3 rings since February afyer loosing my original set(had a fake diamond but i loved it). Originally my husband bought me a lifeless 1 carat diamond from Sears. Which took a battle to return. Keep in mind we had all receipts and tried to return at 20 days after the purchase date. Fortunayely i noticed my diamond didn't look right and i started reading up on the 4cs. 2nd time around we went to Zales. We financed a ring. This one was better and sparkled but the color was K which was too yellow for my husband's liking. So we returned it as well since the financing would've made the ring double the price and we didn't think the price matched the value. Now i have a temp ring from a pawnshop that is actually better quality than the other 2 for $239! Carat size is smaller but quality not quantity!

Anyways to the point. I've veen looking through my options. What i have found in my opinion is i prefer diamonds that are excellent cut or better and colorless as well as eyeclean. I've noticed a lot of people selling their used rings at the sane price as appraisal replacement value or maybe $200 under that price. I thought preowned rings we're usually sold at 50% off retail value or appraisal value. Am i understanding this correctly? If not can soneobe clear tgis up for me, please?

Here's an exampke from craiglists.

We are going to take our time with finding new rings so we get the biggest bang for our buck and the best quality possible. Any insight would be appreciated.

Thank YouScreenshot_2018-05-27-10-45-04.png Screenshot_2018-05-27-10-44-56.png Screenshot_2018-05-27-10-44-45.png Screenshot_2018-05-27-10-44-29.png
 
Welcome!

Most appraisals are routinely made for way over the actual replacement value (often 2-3x!). They are basically appraisals to make the buyer "feel" like they got a good price. Its like the MSRP on a car. Nobody pays that. So, not only is the appraisal unreliable, diamonds need a reliable grading to be what you think you are buying.

If you want to buy pre-owned, you can use online diamond sources (BlueNile, JamesAllen, etc.) to get a current market price. Then, you should be paying no more than about 40-60% of that for most diamonds (maybe 80% for very good diamonds or branded cuts). Branded stones like TIffany and Cartier can hold quite a bit of their value of they have the correct provenience to prove they are real. Just be very very cautious. There are huge numbers of fake diamonds (czs) in the used market through placed like Craigslist, Ebay and the like. There are legitimate fraudster who know they are selling a fake or inadvertent fraudster who are selling mom's ring using the appraisal that "says" its a diamond of certain criteria.

From your description, I think you need to have a look at GIA graded diamonds to calibrate your eyes for color and clarity. Then, stick with GIA or AGS graded stones.

The specific one you posted has a lot of problems. IGI are very very inconsistent on color and clarity. I'd assume that if the same stone was sent to GIA, it would be more like G SI1 -- which would make it new with a known vendor $5830-6640 (diamond only) where you get a money-back guarantee and trade-in/up plan. That setting is about $300. There is nothing but a bad deal.

We are pretty good at finding diamonds here. If you want to post your budget and wants, we can give you some direction.

For example, if you have $6000 for a diamond an only bring color to an I (so 2 jumps above your K)

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4695333

or this from a super-ideal vendor.
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3970280.htm

Something like this is priced fairly for pre-owned and comes with a very pretty setting and GIA grading.
https://loupetroop.com/listings/rin...nd-with-side-baguettes-19k-white-gold-setting
 
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Great reply by rockysalamander. I just wanted to add that on the CL or Ebay you will see people asking close to appraisal value- but I don't think those sellers find buyers.
 
I am pretty sure this diamond is graded vs2 D colorless at 1.04 carats. I was pretty sure it was overpriced being that it's appraised at 6500. I wouod never pay tge aporaisal value on a diamond. I had to make sure I was seeing things correctly with value of diamond resale. Anythong i buy would need to check out at my choice jewlers if i went through facebook marketplace or craiglist because of scams.

Preferably we're looking for .50 carats but my partner wants to get a 1 carat so i told him we can meet in the middle. Maybe 0.80 carats at the most on a simple 3 mm platnium solitaire setting. I am okay with H color but he wants E-F colorless grade. So we're looking for excellent cut to super ideal cut. I have looked through james allen inventory and blue nile and i have used the holloway cut advisor. Which i love. I have a preference towards GIA graded diamonds myself. I haven't personally seen amy AGS stones but i have heard good things. So i would be willing to give them a try.

Thanks so much for your insights
 
What is your budget Joel501? That will dictate what we recommend.

BTW...if your DH has been looking at IGI stones or stones that have certs from other labs then
AGS and GIA then his color guide is probably off. AGS and GIA are stricter labs so they grade
color/clarity tougher. An EFG in a lesser lab may be an HIJ in GIA/AGS.

In general AGS/GIA G colored stones are considered good value. Most people
dont see a tint until you hit I. However, some people are color sensitive. Eye clean SI1 is
also considered good clarity/value trade off.
 
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As other posters have said if your color sensitivity has been based on EGL or IGI stones you will be delighted to find how much whiter stones with the same grade will be with GIA or AGS, same with clarity.

1.2 G/S12 2.3 on the HCA $5300 with GIA Excellent cut since you said you weren't 100% on a what this site considers "ideal"
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...g-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4218080
Platinum setting 630$
https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...mfort-fit-solitaire-engagement-ring-item-1981

You can also ask for the PS discount but this would have you over 1ct with a nice color stone well under your 6500$ budget.

Or if you wanted a "PS ideal" this one might be a good option
1.05 G/SI2 1.5 on the HCA $5130 GIA Excellent
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...g-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3383098
 
1st Dibs Options- 1st dibs is a great option if you do not plan to upgrade your ring in the future. If you think at some point you may want to trade up stick with GOG or JA.

1.01 E/SI2 Platinum Setting HCA 1.9 $5600
https://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/rin...101-carat-diamond-platinum-ring/id-j_3456773/

.75 G/VS2 AGS Ideal Platinum Ring $3200 (and option to negotiate)
https://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/rin...ant-cut-diamond-engagement-ring/id-j_4293813/

T&Co .82 E/VVS2 HCA 1.3 $6160 Platinum setting
https://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/rin...agement-ring-platinum-082-carat/id-j_3996803/

No grade information T&Co .90 G/VS2 $5695 platinum setting (and option to negotiate)
https://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/rin...-solitaire-engagement-ring-1972/id-j_4267443/

.78 F/SI1 Platinum Setting HCA .8 $2700 (option to negotiate)
https://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/rin...litaire-diamond-engagement-ring/id-j_3673563/
 
I am looking for something between 0.50 carats to .80 carats. My DH would want to hit the carat mark. Where budgeted at 4 to 5 grand but preferably are trying to save if we can. That's why i am trying to stay with a sokitaire setting set with the 0.50 carats to 0.80 carats. Most of the shops i have gone to and liked had mostly GIA certified stones. I think my husband has a preference for GIA as well. Most of my research says they are the strictest with grading. I don't plan on upgrading until 10 to 20 years. I might not even. We'll see.

Thank you everyone for your support and advice.
 
Wow I've never heatd of 1stdibs. Absolutely phenomonal prices. Thank you!!!!

Also is very good cut by GIA or AGS worth it. Should i stick with exvellent/ideal cut? I was considering hearts & arrows. I was considering Blue Nile aster cut diamond in .50 carat diamond and maybe taking advantage of their diamond upgrade one day. I did take a trip to the Blue Nile showroom. They had an I colored vs2 1 carat aster cut diamond on display. The diamond was gorgeous. So i am nit really sure about very good cut and if it's worth it to try and save sone money .
 
Very good cut isn't very good - it's a bit of a misnomer. If cut is your priority, focus only on XXX or better, using the HCA to weed out those XXX that aren't actually very well cut for light return.
 
@foxinsox thank you for informing me on very good cut diamonds. I believe i plugged in the porportions for a GIA very good cut in the HCA and checked out well. I think I'll take your advice and stick to triple excellent GIA graded diamomds. Possibly comsider AGS.
 
Joel0501 said:
@foxinsox thank you for informing me on very good cut diamonds. I believe i plugged in the proportions for a GIA very good cut in the HCA and checked out well. I think I'll take your advice and stick to triple excellent GIA graded diamonds. Possibly consider AGS.
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I like the advice that you are getting.

I would posit this though.

Pretend you are at an archery range looking at a target twenty yards away from you. Lets say the whole target is thirty inches across. There is a large circle perhaps 28 inches in diameter. Since approximately 60% of the GIA graded diamonds are marked as Excellent cut. That means the target inside the X ring is approximately 16.8 inches in diameter. (28 x 60%)

Let's say that 10% of the diamonds that are on the market could possibly qualify as an AGS 0 cut grade. That would make the target of AGS 0 cut grade only approximately 2.8 inches across. The "super ideals" have an even smaller target range.

Given that you want diamonds that are very well cut, I really think you should consider the AGS graded diamonds as well.

Wink

P.S. My figures are not designed to be gospel, but only to represent the different caliber of cut grading between GIA and AGS.
 
I, and many others, also consider AGS to be stricter than GIA, "probably" one of the reasons many vendors use GIA for their grading. This subject has been hashed out many times over the years. I cringed a little bit when I saw you wrote that your husband has a preference for GIA....
 
SandyinAnaheim said:
I, and many others, also consider AGS to be stricter than GIA, "probably" one of the reasons many vendors use GIA for their grading. This subject has been hashed out many times over the years. I cringed a little bit when I saw you wrote that your husband has a preference for GIA....
Click to expand...
Outside the U.S. not many people have heard of AGS. I don't mind buying GIA stones if I get more information besides what's on the GIA report. However, most of my purchases are AGS graded.
 
SandyinAnaheim said:
I, and many others, also consider AGS to be stricter than GIA, "probably" one of the reasons many vendors use GIA for their grading. This subject has been hashed out many times over the years. I cringed a little bit when I saw you wrote that your husband has a preference for GIA....
Click to expand...

First off, GIA is not "stricter" in their grading. Actually, you could say that GIA is "stricter" in their grading as it pertains to color, but this is a subject for another debate. GIA simply has a different criteria for their "Excellent" cut. As outlined by @Wink, many stones that make GIA Ex would not make AGS 0, but there are also many that would.

...So does that mean that a stone that would receive AGS 0 is suddenly inferior because it happened to be sent to GIA for grading? There are plenty of elements that go into the decision of where to send the diamond for grading beyond the cut of the diamond, including geographic location of the newly cut diamond and also the intended market for the diamond. For example, JannPaul, a SuperIdeal vendor in Singapore, carries mainly GIA-graded stones due to the preference for GIA in Asia. And all of their stones would definitely receive AGS 0 should they happen to be sent to AGS instead. Finally, there are many diamonds out there graded by GIA that are BETTER than those that barely squeaked into the AGS 0 range. You just need to know what you're looking at.

I am quite frankly getting sick of the AGS worship on this site. I have a high respect for AGS and what they're trying to accomplish in the diamond grading world, but many think that an AGS 0 diamond is automatically superior to a GIA diamond simply because it was sent to the AGS lab, as if AGS has some "secret sauce" (yeah, I just went there... again :mrgreen:) to turn the cut diamonds that enter into their lab into an ethereal substance beyond the reach of "lowly" GIA stones.

As I've said many times, buy the stone, not the brand (with the "Brand" in this case being the grading lab).

Dancing Fire said:
Outside the U.S. not many people have heard of AGS. I don't mind buying GIA stones if I get more information besides what's on the GIA report. However, most of my purchases are AGS graded.
Click to expand...

Agreed. AGS is hardly recognized outside of the U.S., so many choose GIA for this reason. Plus, since GIA is much more widely recognized, it could be said that it would be much easier to sell the stone if you should ever need to in the future. I would have no problem buying from either lab as long as there's adequate information to assess the cut quality of the stone.
 
TreeScientist said:
as if AGS has some "secret sauce" (yeah, I just went there... again :mrgreen:)
Click to expand...

Actually, I would like to withdrawal my use of "secret sauce" in this instance, as we all know that this is reserved for CBI stones. ;)2

Instead, I would like to refer to the AGS magic as "fairy dust," which they sprinkle on every stone before it leaves their lab, as opposed to the secret sauce that is ladled on CBI stones prior to shipment.

So let it be known, "fairy dust" is the new "secret sauce." Looking forward to seeing this used in threads when referring to AGS grading from here on out. :mrgreen:
 
TreeScientist said:
First off, GIA is not "stricter" in their grading. Actually, you could say that GIA is "stricter" in their grading as it pertains to color, but this is a subject for another debate. GIA simply has a different criteria for their "Excellent" cut. As outlined by @Wink, many stones that make GIA Ex would not make AGS 0, but there are also many that would.
Click to expand...

You're repeating what I said....GIA is not "stricter" in their grading, and most GIA XXX will not make AGS 000. What DF says is also true, that GIA is known worldwide and AGS, not so much. I would NEVER say GIA is stricter in color grading. Perhaps you've been indulging in too much of your "fairy dust" if you think that.
 
SandyinAnaheim said:
You're repeating what I said....GIA is not "stricter" in their grading, and most GIA XXX will not make AGS 000. What DF says is also true, that GIA is known worldwide and AGS, not so much. I would NEVER say GIA is stricter in color grading. Perhaps you've been indulging in too much of your "fairy dust" if you think that.
Click to expand...

Excuse the typo, I meant to say that "AGS is not stricter in their grading."

And my reply was not aimed at sparking an AGS vs GIA superiority debate. It was more aimed at your comment that you "cringed" at the thought of her husband having a preference for GIA. I would hardly consider GIA cringe-worthy. Again, it comes down to the cut of the individual diamond and knowing what to look for in regards to cut. I've seen some stinkers among the AGS 0 ranks as well.

Now, if her husband preferred EGL diamonds, then there may be cause for cringing. But that would be more related to the very real possibility that the EGL G/VS1 he hypothetically purchased would be a K/SI2 by AGS/GIA standards. :mrgreen:
 
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Well, to say that one prefers GIA when one doesn't know much about AGS, makes ME cringe.

As far as I know, GIA determines a diamond’s cut grade using factors such as face-up appearance, proportions and symmetry/polish. Using computer simulations and models that are based on human observations, the diamond’s brilliance is then evaluated in a series of steps.

AGS utilizes a system where individual facets of the diamond are measured in 3D instead of GIA’s 2D grade model. AGS then subjects these measurements to a ray tracing test to measure how light travels within the diamond. Using their proprietary ray-trace software, the light performance of the diamond is subsequently determined. To me, this more detailed analysis makes AGS better.

EGL, GAI or IGI would induce nausea, not cringing. :errrr:
 
Joel0501 said:
I am looking for something between 0.50 carats to .80 carats. My DH would want to hit the carat mark. Where budgeted at 4 to 5 grand but preferably are trying to save if we can. That's why i am trying to stay with a sokitaire setting set with the 0.50 carats to 0.80 carats. Most of the shops i have gone to and liked had mostly GIA certified stones. I think my husband has a preference for GIA as well. Most of my research says they are the strictest with grading. I don't plan on upgrading until 10 to 20 years. I might not even. We'll see.

Thank you everyone for your support and advice.
Click to expand...

Some food for thought. While DH means well by getting you the full carat, the reality is he is probably hurting you getting the best bang for your buck. It's pretty common to see diamonds cut so they produce a "magic number" like 1 carat which is very popular. This size will yield a few more dollars in the market than a .89 carat for instance. Not just because of pure size but because of the man with an ego needing "1 carat" for his girl. Retailers know this and price accordingly.

The above said, my advise is to set a budget range and focus on your other criteria.

Recently I bought a diamond for my girl and wanted 1+/- carat, D-G, VS2+. Cut was my most important quality. I ended up with a super ideal cut from Brian Gavin Diamonds. 0.867 carat, H, VS2, ~$4,800.

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...0.867-h-vs2-round-diamond-ags-bl-104098623002

The setting is a different story altogether, lol. But for a simple solitaire, add $500 and you are golden.

Let PS help you! The people here are amazing and you WILL end up with a great diamond for an excellent price!
 
@Joel0501 How are things progressing, have you found a ring that both you and your husband like?
 
Here's something that will help you get the best cut stones within the very broad GIA Excellent cut grade:

These are measurements to help you stay in ideal cut territory with a GIA excellent cut stone.

table: 54-58

depth: 60-62.3

crown angle: 34-35.0 (up to 35.5 crown angle can sometimes work with a 40.6 pav angle)

pavilion angle: 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41.0 if the crown angle is close to 34)
 
Asking a lot on Craigslist is not the same as getting it.

Some 'appraisals' show extremely high values without providing much in the way of a basis for it. Few people complain but that doesn't mean buyers are going to be willing to pay those prices.
 
Hi! For what it's worth, I think you are safe with either GIA or AGS. I just had my stud earrings come back from GIA. There have been recent posts on grading differences from both labs, so I got curious and sent in my stones to GIA. These two stones were purchased as loose stones, both are AGS 000 so I was curious if GIA would grade them the same (for those of you who know my story... yes... these are the dreaded HOF 2ctw earrings).

I thought for sure GIA would grade them lower. To my surprise... GIA graded both stones one color grade higher (both went from F to E) and the one of the stones ended up one clarity grade higher (one went from SI2 to SI1). I was quite surprised actually as I expected the same or even a lesser grade, especially on color as that is what everyone has been saying. It was a good exercise for my own knowledge.

I myself prefer GIA too. I don't know why, maybe because they are more globally recognized. Because I just did this, for any future stones I purchase, I will get reports from both labs before I set the stones... just to have them. I thought it was kind of interesting. The downside is the stone will have two laser inscriptions which some may not prefer.

So... I do think you are fine with either AGS or GIA. GIA will also show you the exact dimensions and angles of the stone as well as their assessment on cut (e.g. ExExEx).
 
Miki Moto said:
I thought for sure GIA would grade them lower. To my surprise... GIA graded both stones one color grade higher (both went from F to E) and the one of the stones ended up one clarity grade higher (one went from SI2 to SI1). I was quite surprised actually as I expected the same or even a lesser grade, especially on color as that is what everyone has been saying. It was a good exercise for my own knowledge.
Click to expand...
There goes that theory! :lol:. IMO, GIA and AGS are equal depending on who was grading the stones that day. If you send the stones once more to GIA or AGS it may or may not come back the same grades.
 
Dancing Fire said:
There goes that theory! :lol:. IMO, GIA and AGS are equal depending on who was grading the stones that day. If you send the stones once more to GIA or AGS it may or may not come back the same grades.
Click to expand...

Anytime a human is involved in the decision making process, it becomes more subjective than objective because of pure human nature.

I've heard prior generations talk about purchasing a new car and making sure they built it in the middle of the week. Why? Because as the theory goes, the workers are tired from partying on the weekend and was in a hurry/rush to finish up on Friday; therefore, you are less likely to get the "best" built car from workers at the beginning or end of the week.

Obviously we could bust holes in the theory. What if the workers came in over the weekend? What if the workers didn't party? What happened if Aunt Betty died in the middle of the week and the worker was upset? Etc, etc.

My point is think about your own personal life, and in elements where you have decision making abilities then sometimes what is affecting us personally can bleed into work. I'm not saying it's right, fair or even professional. But the reality is that it sometimes happens. Machines don't have this element to contend with; therefore, anything graded by a machine is more objective.
 
Try to keep in mind that items posted for sale on Craigslist, or on nearly any other Internet sales site, often do not sell for their last listed price. Nearly all actual sales are subject to negotiation and we nearly never get told what the sale actually finalized for in dollars. We usually don't even know if the item sold, the ad expired, or if the seller gave up.

There has been a real wealth of useful information provided in this thread. The subject of how misleading appraisal values may be certainly touches home with me. I see the occasional low appraisal, but far more often see appraisals for insurance that are exaggerated and some which are simply incredibly high. The best and most honest reference for what is reasonable and near the lowest pricing at retail is a search on Pricescope. Once you have these true asking and transaction level prices, you can understand the possible bargain you may get with a second hand or estate deal. You need to be a very careful and astute shopper because the process is challenging, but once you know where retail pricing is fair, you can begin to shop with a lot more knowledge.

I especially liked the posting describing the fairy dust and secret sauce that are occasionally used with success in marketing. There is some factual basis for these successes along with good people and hard work. Innovation while keeping to high standards is definitely not the easiest path to follow.
 
oldminer said:
There is some factual basis for these successes along with good people and hard work. Innovation while keeping to high standards is definitely not the easiest path to follow.
Click to expand...

Thank you, David. There is a company that I work with, precisely because they have chosen to do exactly what you have recognized; innovation while keeping to high standards.

In fact, there are several great retailers on this board, it is, in my opinion, why so many of our excellent prosumers stick around and offer so much help to so many.

Wink
 
SandyinAnaheim said:
Well, to say that one prefers GIA when one doesn't know much about AGS, makes ME cringe.

As far as I know, GIA determines a diamond’s cut grade using factors such as face-up appearance, proportions and symmetry/polish. Using computer simulations and models that are based on human observations, the diamond’s brilliance is then evaluated in a series of steps.

AGS utilizes a system where individual facets of the diamond are measured in 3D instead of GIA’s 2D grade model. AGS then subjects these measurements to a ray tracing test to measure how light travels within the diamond. Using their proprietary ray-trace software, the light performance of the diamond is subsequently determined. To me, this more detailed analysis makes AGS better.

EGL, GAI or IGI would induce nausea, not cringing. :errrr:
Click to expand...

Sounds like AGS is stricter to me.
 
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