Are PSers more demanding, our expectations too high?

[Aoife]

I can see how that could be a problem. I think that with a lot of PSers, this isn't such a problem because, lets face it, we've all seen a lot of jewelry.

Having said that, I have designed a lot of my own pieces. I've designed jewelry for other people as well. I know that I'm better versed in what is possible with metal and what isn't. So far, I've been spot on. In my situation I gave JKT many images to work from as inspiration and there was very little effort put into it by her. (Perhaps I really should just pot a thread with all of the images exchanged. It would likely explain better.)

Of course, I can only speak for myself. Other people may not know the mediums they are working with as well...and then the burden falls on the jeweler/designer/whatever. And that translates into time and money.

Undoubtedly we have all seen, and worn, a lot of jewelry. A significant number of us have commissioned custom jewelry. However, with a few exceptions, we have not fabricated a lot of jewelry, and there is a quantum leap between a 2-dimensional sketch or detailed drawing and a three dimensional piece that has to hold up to frequent wear, while taking into consideration the individual properties of the chosen metal(s), and at the same time safely retaining and showcasing one or more gemstones. In your case, it sounds as though JKT was not a good fit for your preferred process in creating custom jewelry, and that Daniel M is.

Ultimately, I think that is what this thread highlights, that custom work involves a lot of expectations, and it's important to make sure the jeweler or artisan the consumer chooses understands what those expectations are. What I have noticed, almost without exception, is that there is no such thing as a vendor who makes every single customer happy, so I do think the burden is on the consumer to have realistic expectations going in to a transaction.

MTG, every time I look at your beautiful HoW jewelry I pull out my unset stones and play with the idea of sending something to Sally. One of these days, I'm going to do it!

 

[Lovinggems]

I can see how that could be a problem. I think that with a lot of PSers, this isn't such a problem because, lets face it, we've all seen a lot of jewelry.

Having said that, I have designed a lot of my own pieces. I've designed jewelry for other people as well. I know that I'm better versed in what is possible with metal and what isn't. So far, I've been spot on. In my situation I gave JKT many images to work from as inspiration and there was very little effort put into it by her. (Perhaps I really should just pot a thread with all of the images exchanged. It would likely explain better.)

Of course, I can only speak for myself. Other people may not know the mediums they are working with as well...and then the burden falls on the jeweler/designer/whatever. And that translates into time and money.

Undoubtedly we have all seen, and worn, a lot of jewelry. A significant number of us have commissioned custom jewelry. However, with a few exceptions, we have not fabricated a lot of jewelry, and there is a quantum leap between a 2-dimensional sketch or detailed drawing and a three dimensional piece that has to hold up to frequent wear, while taking into consideration the individual properties of the chosen metal(s), and at the same time safely retaining and showcasing one or more gemstones. In your case, it sounds as though JKT was not a good fit for your preferred process in creating custom jewelry, and that Daniel M is.

Ultimately, I think that is what this thread highlights, that custom work involves a lot of expectations, and it's important to make sure the jeweler or artisan the consumer chooses understands what those expectations are. What I have noticed, almost without exception, is that there is no such thing as a vendor who makes every single customer happy, so I do think the burden is on the consumer to have realistic expectations going in to a transaction.

MTG, every time I look at your beautiful HoW jewelry I pull out my unset stones and play with the idea of sending something to Sally. One of these days, I'm going to do it!

Would you like to elaborate on your comments on realistic expectations?

 

[Lovinggems]

What if the craftsman designed a project claiming a crucial element is executable but cannot execute it in the end. Do you think it is acceptable that the customer refuses to accept the project as is at the price quoted and considered giving a price adjustment for the simpler project?

Of course not. The problem with your hypothetical situation is that a competent craftsperson will nearly always know if something will work or not before they ever start. If they can't make it work one way they can try another or get someone with more skills to take a shot at it. If it can't be done, then it shouldn;t be made in any way. The client should be informed and given some alternatives, one of which should be the option to cancel the project and get a refund. That said, unless the client has something REALLY weird in mind, I have never seen any request that couldn't be made. Those which are impossible just take a little longer.

Or rework the design to satisfy the customer?

Well only if the client approves of the rework. By rework I mean redesign, since it should never get to the point that something is shipped to a client that doesn't look like the sketches or renderings. The whole object of making jewelry is that the client is happy with the end result. If a jeweler is not focussed on that as THE primary goal then they should be doing something else. That said, it is sometimes impossible to make a client happy, for any number of reasons, and in that case you end up doing the best you while trying not to lose your shirt in the process.

This is why it's so important to prequalify the person that you're dealing with from both sides of a project. If a client is acting too demanding right off the bat it is often better to let someone else deal with them, (since it's often a personality thing and someone else may be better suited to them). If you, as a consumer, are dealing with a vendor who is not listening to you and has no apparent desire to find out what you really want or is pushing their preferences and agenda onto you, then maybe you'd be better suited dealing with someone whose ears are still functioning. Most bench people who have been at this a while can make whatever you want. Getting one who can dance with your personality and not act like an old mule may take more time.

My example wasn't hypothetical and the customer had no part in the design, just let the craftsmen run with their ideas.

 

[Lovinggems]

What sort of pricing do you expect for a custom silver or gold ring with varying degrees of complexity?

Pricing anything as a custom piece is going to be much more expensive than something which is commercially produced. Hand making or CAD modeling anything takes the same amount of time whether the piece is gold, silver or platinum. Since the base cost for the time put into the piece HAS to be recovered and that base cost is a much larger percentage of the total cost with something of lower the material cost, it tends to make custom stuff produced in silver look outrageously expensive. You need to remember though that the cost of anything is only relative, in your mind, to the average costs of other tings that you see in all of the markets that you review. If you're looking at E-Bay or even Etsy all the time, the price of a custom piece in any metal may seem nutty. If you're looking in B&M shops at the same things, then the cost of custom pieces sourced online may seem much more modestly priced. If you're loaded with money and want a personal interaction then you may not care what something costs as long as it's exactly what you want.

Great post. I have a better idea of fair pricing for a custom silver project. A few hundred and over is reasonable I presume?
My opinion only but I'll always try to go for gold/platinum or at the very least gold/silver combination. It just seems to be better value.

 

[ZestfullyBling]

Im no expert, but hears my take on it...

Because of PS Im more knowledgable, discerning and particular. The average consumer has no clue. I know this because I used to be the average consumer. I expect to pay a fair/reasonable price for custom pieces because they are custom pieces. To make sure that I pay a fair price, I always try to get a couple of quotes from different vendors for a project before I commit. High expectations? Yes, sure, if you are paying for custom. To be fair though, we should chose a jeweler that can actually handle the custom piece.

Yes we should evaluate the piece to confirm its made right. Crooked/uneven prongs, too much/uneven gold around the pave set diamonds in a halo, uneven basket, etc. Are normal things that jewelrys should see in there inspection process. So if it is overlooked and we receive it...we shouldn't feel bad for sending back to source for correcting.

Also , I noticed some local B&M's are always quite higher than online jewelers, at least the ones in my area.

Side question:Does Argentium Silver cost more that regular Silver? Does Argentium Silver cost as much as gold? Wondering because I received a quote for a piece from online vendor, same piece in Argentium and Gold and there was hardly any difference in price.

 

[Aoife]

Would you like to elaborate on your comments on realistic expectations?

"Realistic expectations" is a broad generalization, I know, so let me see if I can come up with some examples. Perhaps instead of that phrase I should have said that the burden is on the consumer to educate herself. Here's an example that has come up for discussion quite a few times in RT: the current preference a lot of consumers have for ultra-thin shanks that are additionally weakened by pave. The rings are beautiful and delicate, but not everyone who chooses one of those styles seems to understand that those types of rings are much less likely to stand up to hard, everyday, constant wear over time. If a consumer demands a 1.5mm pave-set shank, and then wears that ring when she goes to the gym and lifts weights, whose fault is it if the shank twists or if diamonds fall out?

Backtracking to Michael E.'s excellent post, it is "unrealistic" for a consumer to expect that a one-off, designed-for-them-only custom silver piece is going to cost under $100 even if silver is substantially cheaper than gold because part of what is being paid for is the design work, not just the cost of the silver.

It is "unrealistic" to expect a LOGR setting, no matter how pretty, to compare favorably to a Leon Mege or Maytal Hannah or SingleStone piece in terms of workmanship. That doesn't mean LOGR settings can't be wonderful, and give a lot of pleasure (the ones I have certainly do) but they aren't going to stand up to the same kind of close-up inspection--on the other hand, they don't cost as much.

In other words, every transaction, including those involving custom jewelry, IMO should involve lots and lots of questions. Most artists who do custom work have a policies page on their website, and again, I think the burden is on the consumer to read it, understand it, ask questions, and ultimately determine if those policies seem reasonable. It also doesn't hurt if we educate ourselves a bit as to what is feasible in terms of jewelry fabrication. I'm thinking here in particular of Steve-Needs-a-Ring and his quest for the perfect engagement ring: fortunately he was working with a designer who was able to explain to him why some things he wanted would work, and some wouldn't, so I have no doubt he'll end up with a beautifully crafted ring, even if it isn't exactly what he had in mind originally.

As consumers, we can do all that--educate ourselves, ask questions, try to understand the agreed-upon parameters of a project--and it can all still go horribly wrong, as we've seen on this forum and on other PS forums. I've certainly had projects go awry, and it is frustrating and infuriating. All I am really suggesting is that our best protection as consumers is to be informed, and, yes, realistic before we enter into any kind of custom work.

 

[MontageCreations]

To answer ZestfullyBling's side question, Argentium SIlver is just a few dollars more per ounce than traditional Sterling Silver, eg. when SS sells for $36/oz I buy Argentium Silver at about $38.50/oz. Forum Rules: I can't comment on the discrepancy in pricing on the gold vs. Argentium.

 

[deorwine]

Ah, I didn't see that question. I'll answer because I am not a vendor (but I have taken classes in fabrication).

Silver is bouncing between $35 and $40 / oz right now. As MontageCreations said, argentium silver is maybe a few dollars more. Gold, by contrast, is around $1500/oz right now. So... quite a difference. Of course, a given piece is not likely to be more than a couple of grams which would give the cost of the raw materials ranging between several dollars (silver) to ~$100 (gold). And then, with gold being $50/gram, if you can shave the weight of the piece from 2 grams to 1 gram you're suddenly only paying $50 for the raw material gold...

If you're getting quoted the same for argentium silver and gold you're either paying the vast majority of that for the craftsmanship and not much for the metal (I could see this being the case for a piece that was small and perhaps fiddly, or for a craftsman where you're paying a high premium for the design and craftsmanship elements) or the vendor is hoping you'll think argentium and gold are similarly priced. Which it is probably depends a lot on the weight of your piece, the difficulty of construction, and the price (e.g., I would consider $500 and $550 "hardly any difference in price" even though it could price in the raw-material difference, but I'd consider $50 vs. $100 quite a large difference even though it's the same actual difference).

And then again there's the part where most vendors will multiply the actual difference in raw cost by a factor, kind of a "wholesale-to-retail" markup on the metal. That's where you'll see a difference of hundreds of dollars in the price between a silver and gold piece of jewelry. So it's even possible that the vendor you're talking about is being more generous by having a very small markup in price, by not doing the wholesale-to-retail markup. It's hard to say without knowing more; obviously there are a lot of variables.

 

[deorwine]

Undoubtedly we have all seen, and worn, a lot of jewelry. A significant number of us have commissioned custom jewelry. However, with a few exceptions, we have not fabricated a lot of jewelry, and there is a quantum leap between a 2-dimensional sketch or detailed drawing and a three dimensional piece that has to hold up to frequent wear, while taking into consideration the individual properties of the chosen metal(s), and at the same time safely retaining and showcasing one or more gemstones.

Quoted for truth.

As I said in the last post, I've taken several fabricating classes. (Well, okay... I've taken the beginners fabrication class, three times. I, uh, let's say that if they gave grades, I wouldn't have gotten a very good one. I love it, but it's not my strength.) I strongly recommend this for any PSer who wants to understand what it's like to put together jewelry.

The first project in the beginners fabrication class is making a simple band ring with some texturing. Easy, right? It always takes a little more than three class sessions (that's 10 hours) to make the thing. Now, obviously, someone who isn't a total beginner would be able to do it in less than that, but that's what you're paying for. That and the ability to solve problems. I once hared off on my own and tried making a bangle bracelet with a (commercial) prong setting soldered on. It took me about 10 hours -- I thought I could hammer it into shape -- but oops, I already soldered the prongs and now I can't. Okay, I bend the metal with pliers -- well, I could, but that left plier marks. Okay, now I have to get those off. And so on...

Now, I'm not suggesting that a real craftsperson takes 10 hours to do either of these things. Heck, I bet Michael E or Daniel M could make a band ring in ten minutes. But again, it's that expertise and the ability to figure out the-- I shouldn't say design, but the workflow -- that you're paying for.