Are you paying to lose your job?

[niceice]

Are you paying to lose your job? By purchasing a Dell Computer, or AOL as an internet service provider, or calling home to say hello to your Mother and using AT&T as a long distance provider you may be doing just that because these and many other companies are outsourcing a lot of their employment needs to foreign countries and in doing so are eliminating jobs here in the U.S. at a rate which is staggering. While this is an obvious concern to everybody, we wonder if you really know how much of a problem this really is here in the U.S., the list of companies perpetrating this abuse upon the American Job Market can be found at WhosOutSourcing.com and is certainly worth a look. We were surprised to see such companies as State Farm Insurance, AETNA Insurance, Allstate Insurance and Bank of America on the list since all of these companies run advertising campaigns which seem to be in direct opposition to the manner in which they are actually operating their companies. The prediction for jobs lost her in America due to foreign outsourcing over the next few years is more than 3 Million! That is a loss of 3 Million potential clients as far as we''re concerned and the "savings" purported by these companies which are abusing our trust as an American Market do not seem to be passing the savings on to us, from what we''ve seen in reference to the cost of things that we purchase, that "savings" must be going to pad the pockets of a "few" high level executives. And at the same time, these very same companies benefit from special tax breaks provided by "our" government.

 

[Mara]

Almost everyone is outsourcing or finding a way to do it. The tech industry here in the BayArea has moved alot of their support and call centers to other countries, and my company even has most of our basic web maintenance and design done in China.




I called up my insurance co the other day and was routed to a call center in the Phillipines. Hadn't heard that one before in the mix.




I think eventually everyone will come back. There have been articles as well about how outsourcing to other countries is NOT working for the majority of the companies out there (I think IBM outsourced and now is in the process of bringing things back?)...and I think it will be short lived. Time will tell.

 

[chemmie]

The only obligation any corporation has is to themselves and their shareholders. That's a hard pill to swallow for anyone who has been laid off, but the truth. None of this is our Federal Government's responsibility and corporation boycotts are the way things like this can be solved. If enough people have a problem with a corporation's policies, the free market will sort out the rest.
What needs to be looked into is why are these corporations moving overseas? Countless regulations and a variety of taxes and other expenses make it even cheaper to outsource employment. If America does not reduce the amount of regulation on business and make America more appealing to employers than other countries, this trend will continue.
Lastly, the way to make sure you don't lose your job is to make sure you are not expendable. Hard work, dedication, responsibility and continuing education are ways to ensure that you will stay employed or will find meaningful employment if you are laid off. Keep in mind that our current unemployement levels are around 5.6%. That is a very good number. Just keep in mind there is a portion of the population that is unemployable. Thugs, morons, adicts... whatever the reason. Then look into the retiring baby boomer generation. Soon there will be more jobs to go around than we will have employees to fill.

 

[pulp_princess]

Unfortunately, that's the way it's been looking for quite some time. Companies want to stay competitive by keeping their prices low and they do that by paying lower wages. A lot of computer companies source out their code to India, clothing manufacturers build factories overseas, etc. The company I work for is supposedly(?) the top of their field in sales but it's struggling to stay competitive, because as soon as one company slips, there are lots more to take over.

Then there's the "brain drain" as Canada has been complaining about for years. I know there's still debate over whether or not it exists and I haven't made up my mind. Supposedly, Canada's well trained professionals in certain fields move to the U.S. after graduation. In the computer area, the best someone can do in Canada (unless you have a unique work experience, or start your own company, etc.) is around $55-65 K starting salary and those are rare. Some applying to the U.S. are being offered a few hundred thousand to be managers, plus stock options, benefits, *long* vacation allowances, etc. It's not too hard of a call to guess which on whose line most of the young people are signing. I think of the ones I know in the computer industry, less than 10% stayed in Canada of this particular program. Those that did have SO's in Canada or family considerations.

On the bright side, there are people and organizations who have made a difference. I hear the Gap is paying fairer wages to their overseas employees because of publicity. There are tons of organizations if you do enough research, that take advantage of outsourcing even though they take pride in not doing so publicly. I think one group found that The Body Shop was one of them.

The more awareness we have of something, the more tools we have to do something about it.

 

[RaeAnn]

Is it the regulation and taxes on businesses that are causing companies to send their work overseas or is it the fact that the cost of living is _so_ much lower in Third World countries than it is here so people are willing to do computer programming for $3000 a year? I don't think it's regulation, I think it's economics.

I know plenty of people who are hardworking, dedicated, intelligent, and motivated (highly trained white collar professionals, many of them) and who are also looking for work because their jobs have been outsourced.

I don't think there's an easy answer that will work for everybody....

 

[Mara]

Everyone wants to come to the US. Canada..India...others. Here in the Bay I know alot of tech Canadians who came here to get more $$. About 10 times more Indians than that, they are highly educated in India and then the US companies recruit them. The US is pretty culturally diverse on the two coasts, esp here in the Bay. Whenever I think about moving elsewhere in the US...I think not only about the great weather I'd lose but the excellent cultural diversity I'd really miss.

 

[RaeAnn]

Mara, what about Chicago?

We're not exactly all white bread here.... Geez, everybody forgets about us, is it the weather (60 two weeks ago, snowing today)?

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 3/17/2004 1:03:49 PM RaeAnn wrote:

Is it the regulation and taxes on businesses that are causing companies to send their work overseas or is it the fact that the cost of living is _so_ much lower in Third World countries than it is here so people are willing to do computer programming for $3000 a year? ....----------------

I can confirm taht first hand. $300/month is a lofty income in Romania (third world?). This can get you a nerd with a PhD and a few years of hands-on experience with whatever computer-related stuff, perfect English and the desire to work long hours, I am affraid. Virually all software in this country is pirated by such people: there is no shortage of knowledge to be bought for pocket change

and American-like life costs just as much in Bucharest as in Boston - it is not the cost of living but the standard of living that gets down

A few coleagues of mine form the States who tried to live here could confirm...

And this is Eastern Europe... go East and things get even more tempting for outsourcing

However, local corruption and politics makes these markets difficult, and this is why a few small consulting firms get paid real money to bridge the gap. Another story that.

 

[Mara]

RaeAnn...one word, sweetie! WINDY!

Yesterday I was sitting outside with some co-workers enjoying the 80 degree weather as we ate lunch. Last nite I was talking to Alj and she noted they were stuck in a SNOWSTORM last nite on the way home.

Honestly, why would anyone EVER want to leave California? We are SO incredibly spoiled in terms of great weather here.

The funny thing is that Greg loves it here, but he really misses home back East. As long as his parents keep sending him those snowstorm pictures, I think chances are still very good we will stay here a little longer. Hee Hee.

 

[mike04456]

Mara, I've been living here for close to 20 years, and I can testify that for those of us raised elsewhere, this endless 80-degree-not-a-cloud-in-the-sky weather can get really monotonous. Winter is my favorite season because there's actually some variety. I actually miss the rain the rest of the year.

And linking this thread drift back to the outsourcing issue, complaining about globalization--whether it's jobs, manufacturing, or whatever--is kind of like complaining about the weather. In a free society with open borders, there's really nothing meaningful you can do about it. The financial pressures are just too great, and protectionism just doesn't work in the long run.

 

[MattGray]

Here is what you will not see offered from our Labor interests:

There was some discussion of how our unemployment rate is "only" ~5% is troubling. That comment suggests a misunderstanding of how that # is calculated.

The rate of unemployment is not the total number of unemployed Americans, it is merely the # of unemployed Americans who are eligible for unemployment government services and who are not working -- a much lower # than the former.

The number of US Americans who are unemployed is closer to 10%. 1 in 10 working aged Americans is not able to find a job to support themselves (let alone their families).

Outsourcing is compounding that problem -- and, if you have had to speak with customer service at one of the outsourced companies, it's a headache. Service is abismal (or at least I think it is, I can't fully understand them 1/2 the time).

I recently had to call HP 6 times, over the span of 7 hours, to finally get someone who knew what they were doing. I received a different answer every time I called because they don't know what they're doing...

 

[Rank Amateur]

All you can do is look for and buy "Made in America".

If the people won't do this, why should the government get involved? Because we are too cheap and can't control ourselves? We get what we deserve. (That just so happens to be my argument against term limits as well.

)

 

[winyan]

Err, both myself and my SO have been downsized and our jobs sent to other countries, including Ireland, Canada and India.

The folks who came here for positions from India? They are now also jobless, because those who live in India, especially the tech state of Banglore are taking over the help desk, programming and other 'routine' IT positions. Project Management is still a hot commodity, but only if you happen to be PMI, Black Belt, or hold some other type of certification, and I can see those jobs going too, or else the job holder will be forced to commute to various localities around the world to 'oversee' developers, testers, etc.

I recently had occasion to call the help desk of my ISP. I wasn't at all shocked, to find, after asking several times, the help desk was in India.

Corporations, as per my tag line, have to learn to be responsible 'citizens' of this country. Otherwise, we will soon be 'third world' ourselves.

Robin and Todd, thanks for pointing out this important issue.

win

PS I have a PhD and my SO a MS, so education means nothing these days. It's troubling to think what our children will have to do to make a living.

 

[phoenixgirl]

Our economy is global. I tend to believe that the "invisible hand" of economics evens things out in the end. If enough people believe that something is immoral (is giving the citizens of third world countries better jobs than they had before really immoral?), then the economic value of doing it will not outweigh the societal cost. Otherwise, let it be.

As my dad (former dean and current professor at the Wharton School) always told me growing up, the freer our economy, the bigger the pie we all eat from. He also said something about, "Capitalism rewards capital," but I'm still trying to figure that one out.

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 3/18/2004 5:32:33 PM phoenixgirl wrote:



[...] the freer our economy, the bigger the pie we all eat from. He also said something about, 'Capitalism rewards capital,' but I'm still trying to figure that one out.----------------

I used to believe it too... but not anymore. It's a rather long way from fiction to fact in economics. I am affraid theory is always a step behind reality - still - in this field and the one about the benefits of free trade is a particlarly old piece of theory.

Oh well...

Back to gems!

 

[Chas_T]

An interesting thread indeed. I think the economists who raise the theory of a free and open economy, generally have tenure and perhaps do not live in reality quite often. However, relating back to my economic classes in my undergrad and graduate studies, the theory in fact is a true statement.

Outsourcing and contracting non-american tech people does take jobs away from this country. For example, many of the software projects I've been involved in were many times dominated by some very talented individuals from Pakistan, India, UK, etc. Diversity was paramount and a most enjoyable experience.

However, their hourly rates were many times much lower in comparison to American consulting firms, thereby leveraging the companies costs. When you budget X amount of dollars and find you are able to pay less, find the same or better technical skills for less money, it's a no brainier for most firms. There are ramifications for such decisions of course where citizens of the US who are inside employees may lose their jobs or U.S. consulting firms within the states will find it necessary to reduce work force. That is my experience here in portions of the North East.

I think one of the items that most do not understand is unless outsourcing personally effects you or your lifestyle, most of the time it becomes more of a discussion then a reality. The reality is you hope you do not get caught in the middle and become a cause and effect statistic of this outsourcing. Personally, I know of quite a few people who have had to sell their homes, move to other areas of the country and uproot their families, or just work odd jobs to somehow makes ends meet.

Another one of my friends lost his job to overseas outsourcing and now is paying health insurance out of pocket, had to sell his home and is struggling at the financial level to the max. He may have lived a bit beyond his means in a sense, but considering his income was in the six figure category and then having it drop considerably, most anyone would feel the effects.

As Mr. Trump has said, life is full of problems and I agree with his comment on the Apprentice. However, if you become a statistic of this trend in business and it effects your lifestyle and those you love, then you tend to perhaps have a different attitude on this economic theory that Economists adhere.

Back to diamonds.

 

[MattGray]

In this world, you are either a producer, servicer, or popper.

For better or worse, we have become a largely service oriented society -- producing very little tangible goods. That direction was forced by corporations who took production oveseas for the sake of the almighty dollar. We lost jobs then, too.

Nearly all we have left is in the realm of service industry.

Now even that is moving off shore, leaving us with...?

In my view, Corporations have a responsibility to the communities they thrive off of -- as a mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship -- else they're nothing but leaches.

Here's what really gets me -- outsourcing is not due to the fact that the companies aren't making money -- it's because they aren't making ENOUGH money, so the move to take American jobs is about greed. Several hundred million dollar (per person) executive salaries and exotic corporate parties have to paid for somehow...

Join me in BOYCOTTING companies like HP, AOL, AT&T, GE, and any other interest that contribute to ruining the American workforce for the sake of greed.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Hmmmm
So let me see if I understand this xneophobic subject?

You will not wear, drive or eat anyhting that is not grown / made in USA?

the wealth you enjoy in America is largely because for the past 200 years you have been outsourcing things to cheaper suppliers.

And other issues I often read in this forum - child labour and under payed workers in poor conditions in third world factories.

You do not want an Indian graduate to have the chance to earn $100 a month (3 times more than he dreamed of) so that you can have lower taxes and cheaper services such as road side breakdown services, and real people to talk to on phone reception services instead of those crazy loop around telephone answering things?

I think you all need to learn to seperate political hype from reality.

The starving people in India and China are doing much better because thier economies and govt's has embraced globilization. And does making nike runners in Asia make anyone in USA poorer?
Sure there are cases of people loosing jobs - but what's new about that - there is about 15% of the farmers left - and those still on the land now work computerised tractors and machines in aircon comfort.

If anyone is interested and can find it on the web - there was a series of articles in the Economist mag - about how the rich countries should lower or drop tarrifs to poor countries (especially Africa) because this will do 10x more than any aid we provide.

As a frequent traveller to some poor countries I can see that this is true and that poverty need not exist if we let people "fish" rather than fish for them.

 

[pqcollectibles]

----------------
On 3/17/2004 1:36:59 PM Mara wrote:


RaeAnn...one word, sweetie! WINDY!

Honestly, why would anyone EVER want to leave California? We are SO incredibly spoiled in terms of great weather here.

----------------

Cause California is like a box of Granola. What ain't fruits or nuts is flakes!

 

[pqcollectibles]

----------------
On 3/21/2004 2:15:37 AM Cut Nut wrote:



Sure there are cases of people loosing jobs - but what's new about that - there is about 15% of the farmers left - and those still on the land now work computerised tractors and machines in aircon comfort.

----------------

The rigs you are talking about are a huge expense that most farmers cannot afford. Those tractors run into the high 6 figures. Agri-business Companies maybe. But the average farmer, not usually. You should see it here come harvest time in the fall. Professional companies own the big combines and thrashers. They decend like locusts and harvest all the crop acreage in our area in 2 weeks or less. They don't do that for free either. The fees come out of the farmer's pocket based on a price/acre harvested.

Price the cost to plant an acre of crop. Soy beans, corn, milo, wheat. Plus the fertilize, herbicides, and pesticides. You name the crop. You'll find that farmers spend almost as much to produce an acre of crop as they get in return at sale. Harvest the corn/wheat/beans at the wrong moisture level and the price/bushel gets docked at market. If harvest time is damp or rainy and you have dryer bins, then you incur a huge expense to dry your crop. Have a drought or super rainy season, the crops can get washed out, die in the field, be stunted/low yield, and you are still out the money to plant with little or no return.

Some farmers run cattle and horses. Livestock brings a whole new set of expenses/headaches. Veterinary bills, loss of livestock to predators and disease, maintenance in the winter. Livestock also needs water so you either have a pond to maintain or stock tanks to fill. Water ain't cheap when you have to buy it. Cleaning a pond can easily run into the thousands of dollars. And then there's weather to contend with. You've got to get enough cutting of hay to feed the livestock thru the winter, plus store it. You've got to have barn space to house the cattle/horses when the weather is too extreme. The Average American farm that is owned an operated by the small farmer is, at best, a break-even venture.

Most of the farmers I know love to farm and continue to do so. Many work real, 40+ hour/week jobs on the side for benefits, food, taxes, and expense money. They specifically look for 2nd and 3rd shift jobs to have daylight hours to work the farm. Some folks do own enclosed tractors. No A/C. The tractors are enclosed for warmth in the winter. A/C eats too much fuel.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

That, PQ, is why 85% of farmers left farming and the big companies are moving in.
And the problem you face in USA because of that is that the big farm lobby is very powerful.
That means you have very high tarrifs (which means you pay more for everything from sugar to cotton clothes).
The high tarrifs mean it is impossible for productive people from poor third world countries to make a living exporting goods to USA.

Does that make sense?

 

[Mara]

PQ that is such a stereotype...of course only heard and perpetuated outside of CA by bitter non-Californians.

I guess it depends on where you live in CA. Certainly a hedonistic attitude permeates the state, but I don't like tie-dye or granola!!!

 

[strmrdr]

Thats the plan people not to bring the 3rd world up to US standards there arent enough resources to do that so the plan is to reduce the US to third world status.
Empires fall and the US is heading the way of all empires down the toilet.

 

[strmrdr]

The US went broke just like the Soviet Union did fighting the cold war it just hasn’t imploded yet.

When you listen to the bankers talk about the lower dollar they scream about the trade deficit.
Yet the US because of wipo and nafta cant do anything about it.

The US has outlived its usefulness to the rest of the world and in their eyes has to be brought down.
While it was needed to keep the Soviet Union at bay the countries of Europe were buddy buddy.
Today they just view us as a threat.
Don’t think they haven’t noticed how we rolled over the Iraqi army twice and then compared the strength of it to their own.

The next step in bringing down the empire is for oil to start trading in euros when that happens it will give them the control they want over the Eagle in the West.
What is left of our economy is oil driven.
Why do you think they are financing the environmental groups to make sure we don’t tap into the oil reserves we have here.
They can’t cut it off.

Lets not forget the disarmament campaign to remove firearms from Americans so they will not be an effective fighting force and be ready for enslavement should it be needed.

 

[pqcollectibles]

----------------
On 3/21/2004 10:27:13 AM Mara wrote:


PQ that is such a stereotype...of course only heard and perpetuated outside of CA by bitter non-Californians.

I guess it depends on where you live in CA. Certainly a hedonistic attitude permeates the state, but I don't like tie-dye or granola!!!
----------------

It's a very old joke, Mara. I just couldn't resist.

 

[pqcollectibles]

----------------
On 3/21/2004 5:08:00 AM Cut Nut wrote:

That, PQ, is why 85% of farmers left farming and the big companies are moving in.
And the problem you face in USA because of that is that the big farm lobby is very powerful.
That means you have very high tarrifs (which means you pay more for everything from sugar to cotton clothes).
The high tarrifs mean it is impossible for productive people from poor third world countries to make a living exporting goods to USA.

Does that make sense?----------------

The biggest loss of family farming to Agri-Business occurred several years ago. The trend now among farmers giving up the family legacy is to develope. The land is parcelled off, rezoned residential, and housing developement becomes the new crop. I see the loss of productive crop land and wonder how the Bread Basket of America is going to continue to feed the world.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

There is not a shortage of food in the world.
There is a distribution problem, and that is what i am talking about.

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 3/21/2004 2:00:45 PM Cut Nut wrote:

There is not a shortage of food in the world.
There is a distribution problem, and that is what i am talking about.----------------

He he

This has never been a major topic in macroeconomics and the major policy decissions it backs up. A decade ago, wealth distribution and growth became mainstrean in development economics. It was fashionable to debate wether a new kind of economic theory is needed for developing countries - since they were dealing with so very distinct problems.

It took all that 'jobless growth' in the EU to make inequality a topic of discussion. It usually takes a new generation of economists to bring such 'fringe' research issues into popular debate (say, The Economist

) and political campaigns. By now, talking wealth distribution and say, Fed policy, is never done in the same room and rarely by the same people.

Conclusion? Some say that economists are good at making up self-fulfilling prophecies. There wasn't any prophecy about who becomes wealthy when the world's wealth goes up.

 

[Jennifer5973]

An interesting article debating the worry over exporting of US jobs overseas...

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P79592.asp

 

[Nicrez]

Well, I can't believe I didn't see this thread....intersting stuff! I have to say that so many people are upset about losing out to other business centers in India and other places.

What makes America is Capitalism. Plain and simple, this is the land of opportunity, when any "average joe" can get on TV, make millions and be broke a year later. Such is the life of the US. There are countries all over the world where this could NEVER happen. That's why so many follow the dream to the US...

"Greedy" companies may not be totally responsible for the shift either. How about the difficulty in staffing a customer service position in most fields? Americans require a MUCH higher salary, offer less education for the job, and tend to have a much higher turn over than their foreign counter parts. If I was a company in the business to make money, that sounds like a bad idea to me.

Ok, now before I get beaten up here, I support that the highest qualified and most competitive get the job. Within the US, this is the same system we like to ask our government to use to save money and establish contractors on this basis. BUT, people want the jobs to stay in the US, so they are basically saying (as often happens with our government contracts) don't give the job to the best qualified and cheapest alternative, give it to Bob, because he's your friend (or American). WOuldn't that then be descrimination and affirmative action on a global scale?

Unfairness abounds in all areas of life. But I think that the US has become too expensive to support certain labor positions. It's just a fact that manufacturing here is spiraling to ridiculous proportions that it wouldn't even be profitable for some manufacturers. Same is now happening with those MBA, and Masters in engineering students in India who take over an American's $85K job for $20K US equivalent salary in India. They are well educated, friendly, and sometimes more knowledgeable than most Dell customer serivce people from the US (ne degrees in comp sci, NO masters!) These foreign counterparts are also willing to stay in these jobs for much longer than flitting around for a "higher paying job". To some working with a big company is a prestige, even with doctorate degrees!

So, I am against companies that skimp out on benefits and such to any worker, but to what end would you prefer that Americans get the jobs over anyone else? At the sacrifice of unfairness in quality? At the expense of getting paid so much more, to the company's financial detriment? The law of Comparative Advantage would say that we lost our copeteitve edge in some industries and we need to gain them back, not pout until companies surrender to smaller profits.

The government should impose a stricter standard on what they finance, and use our hard earned tax dollars to give FREE or subsidized education to increase the educational level of the workforce. Also, they need to allow for company subsidies for hiring and maintaining American offices. Just because a company makes money, doesn't mean they can be in business to lose it. It just means our government is making us lose that competitive advantage in the global workforce and we need to get it back...