Are you surprised by the Iowa caucus??

[movie zombie]

as stated above, had already read the article....but tested your link and it worked fine for me. a must read article, imo.

movie zombie

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/7/2008 3:50:21 PM
Author: MC
I said it is insulting for both of us. My point, which I apparently didn''t make, is that in my experience, Christians have tried to convert me to their belief system. It''s not a pleasant experience to be told that my views are wrong and that I should believe what another person does. I see how I AM judging right now, but my reasoning for stepping over boundries is to additionally state just because I am not a Christian, I have NEVER tried to transform my Christian family to agnostics. THAT is the hypocrisy and difference from my point of view. Christians complain about bashing, but often the Christian method of ''bashing'' non Christians is the same, but far more subtle approach in not accepting a person (fully) until they convert.

Religion is a NO win sitation. But, as I said it''s unfair to have a highly religious person representing America. How will that look to leaders of other countries who follow another faith? This could lead to disaster.

ok so some Christians have insulted you so its ok for you too bash em all.
I guess its ok using the same logic for me too bash all agnostics because you are insulting me?
I can associate with who I want and so can you and if someone doesn''t want to be friends with you because of your beliefs then that is their right. Just like its your right not too be friends with someone who puts you down.


This reminds me of when the first Catholic president was elected and a ton of people had a cow about being forced into that denomination. Didnt happen....
2pts for naming the president :}

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 1/7/2008 4:13:02 PM
Author: strmrdr
ok so some Christians have insulted you so its ok for you too bash em all.
I guess its ok using the same logic for me too bash all agnostics because you are insulting me?
I can associate with who I want and so can you and if someone doesn't want to be friends with you because of your beliefs then that is their right. Just like its your right not too be friends with someone who puts you down.

Yes, I don't have to be friends with a person who pushes religious agenda on me, but a PRESIDENT who is in position to push agenda? Aside for voting for another candidate, I cannot make Huckabee NOT be my president, if he ends up being elected.

Oh, and I'm not sure how your Catholic trivia relates because my issue isn't the fact that Huckabee is a Christian, as I stated in an earlier post, it's because he's a Christian PREACHER!!! He's use to using words to created a spin on views.

 

[surfgirl]

MC, I'd add to your thoughts that it is equally disturbing to me to have a President who uses his faith to "guide" his political decision making. To me, that's the most horrifying aspect here. And thus, it sadly extends to not only clergy running for President, but also non-clergy who "use" their faith to get votes (I'm looking at you, Romney). For those who like to bandy about their patriotism, our Founding Fathers thought up a little think they liked to call "Separation of Church and State" and while many seem to think it's no longer applicable, I think it was extremely forward thinking of them to consider this potential problem so long ago. Then again, I'm sure they thought it up because they themselves were fleeing religious persecution.

The bottom line is that America is NOT a "Christian" country, and Christianity is NOT the "official" religion of this country. Is it the most widespread religion? Yes, especially if you lump together all the differing versions of Christ-based teachings. But...this country is both multi-cultural AND offers all people the freedom to practice whatever religion they want to practice. It is a real shame that in 2008, some people are actually afraid to have a non-Christian President, or a President of color, or a female President.

ETA1: APSARA, since you were so disturbed by Obama not wearing a flag pin, I looked up the article(s) on that issue and it's exactly what I thought. He's more concerned with "action" than slapping a pin on his lapel and saying he's patriotic, which has indeed become a de facto symbol for "true patriotism" that has been abused by those who are some of the biggest abusers of our constitution. He said:

""I'm less concerned with what you're wearing on your lapel than what's in your heart," Obama said Thursday while campaigning in Independence, Iowa.

"You show your patriotism by how you treat your fellow Americans, especially those who serve. And you show your patriotism by being true to your values and ideals. And that's what we have to lead with, our values and ideals," Obama said."

I couldn't agree more.

ETA2: If you want to learn more about why he does or doesn't do certain things, you could always check his own website and hear directly from him, why he doesn't wear a pin or why he didn't put his hand over his heart during the national anthem. It's really not a big deal. As he rightly says, you put your hand over your heart when saying the Pledge of Allegiance, not when you sing the national anthem. This is also how I was also taught and I never put my hand over my heart when singing the anthem. Anyway, if you're interested in reading these things for yourself, you can find them on Obama's website. Happy reading.

http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/2007/11/12/obama_is_a_patriot.php

 

[Rank Amateur]

When Kennedy was elected there was much ado regarding him taking directives from the Pope. How absurd.

Carter was possibly the most "religious" (whatever THAT means) Prez we had and yet many libs hold him in high esteem. Of course Carter was a horrible President (don''t blame God, he watched from afar).

To me one''s "religiousness" is somewhat a non-issue unless the person''s religion is a kook cult. (The more I learn about the Mormons the more I wonder about them.) There''s nothing wrong with praying for help figuring something out any more than talking it out with any trusted advisor.

Maybe what we really need is a Jew in the Whitehouse. The more I hear Liberman talk the more I like him. Who will be first, black, woman, or Jew? [: naughty:]

You live in a society founded, run and administered based on Judeo-Christian laws, practices, and beliefs. The founders believed that we all have rights endowed by our Creator. Tip your hat to those who have come before you instead wasting energy on self-riteous indignation.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/7/2008 5:58:03 PM
Author: Rank Amateur
When Kennedy was elected there was much ado regarding him taking directives from the Pope. How absurd.

Carter was possibly the most ''religious'' (whatever THAT means) Prez we had and yet many libs hold him in high esteem. Of course Carter was a horrible President (don''t blame God, he watched from afar).

To me one''s ''religiousness'' is somewhat a non-issue unless the person''s religion is a kook cult. (The more I learn about the Mormons the more I wonder about them.) There''s nothing wrong with praying for help figuring something out any more than talking it out with any trusted advisor.

Maybe what we really need is a Jew in the Whitehouse. The more I hear Liberman talk the more I like him. Who will be first, black, woman, or Jew? [: naughty:]

You live in a society founded, run and administered based on Judeo-Christian laws, practices, and beliefs. The founders believed that we all have rights endowed by our Creator. Tip your hat to those who have come before you instead wasting energy on self-riteous indignation.

yep

Plus the fact we have allready had a president who was a preacher.

 

[perry]

Hmmmm.... To answer the original question: On the democratic side - I''m not surprised. On the Republican side - I am surprised.

Obama is doing something that I do not belive has been done in about 30 years (give or take some)... He is attacting an entire group of younger americans into the political process - in fairly large numbers (OK storm, I knew the answer to your question when I read it a few minutes ago - do you know who it was that I''m referring to about pulling in a substaintial group of younger americans way back then).

Overall, I think that is a good thing - regardless of my position on any canidate.

But, I am more concerned about the discussion about religion in this thread.

I know some people who consider themselves Christian who are the salt of the earth honest and kind. They do not even tell people what their religion is... they live it.

I know some people who consider themselves christian who I consider religious radicals and extreemist - for whom the conversion of people to their specific belief is all important.

I know people in the middle; and I know people of other faiths as well.

I do not consider being religious a problem - and some of the best people I know are quite religious. I do consider people who are extreemist to be a problem (in any religion).

I grew really tired about hearing about the catholic and protestant terroist of norther Ireland years ago. I am equally tired about hearing about muslem terrorist. Go to another part of the world and it is the hindu''s and sike''s (spelling).

Why don''t we just call them religious extreemist and terrorist; and drop whatever "religious" name they claim to be a member of?

While it is true that America was by and large founded on Jewish and Christian values - I believe the values of that day (over 200 years ago) are often not the "values" that people claim today as Christian...

I am also offended if people seriously question my personal religion in a challanging and threating way; but, I welcome discussion on what I believe and why - and what other people believe and why. I have learned a tremendous amount by such discussions.

In the end: Am I worried about electing a "religious" person as president. No - not at all. Done properely a religious person can do a tremendous amount of healing and pulling together of America - without imposing their faith or overtly imposing their values.

Am I worried about electing an extreemest or radical who feels that they must implement aspects of their form of religion on the people of this nation and beyond. Yes.

Am I worried about electing a non-religious person as president. Depends if they have a core value of caring for people, this nation, and the world; or not.

In the end; I will vote for the best person - as a person. Who will that be? I cannot predict at this point. I do of course have some preferences of who it should be - and of course wish some others would not make it to the end.

Perry

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/7/2008 9:09:33 PM
Author: perry

do you know who it was that I'm referring to about pulling in a substaintial group of younger americans way back then).

I'm not Storm, but I am assuming that you are referring to Eugene McCarthy. I was young when he made his run for President and I remember being full of idealistic fervor. We were supposed to be "clean for Gene" and try to end the war in Vietnam. His followers were nice, young people...people who dressed nicely, spoke nicely, had good manners, and tried to persuade the electorate based on reason.

Deborah

 

[fleur-de-lis]

Date: 1/8/2008 8:45:35 AM
Author: AGBF

Date: 1/7/2008 9:09:33 PM

Author: perry


do you know who it was that I''m referring to about pulling in a substaintial group of younger americans way back then).

I''m not Storm, but I am assuming that you are referring to Eugene McCarthy...

Well, if you ask my fiance it was Bill Clinton in ''92, if you ask my aunt it was McGovern during the Vietnam War, and if you ask my FFIL it was Kennedy in ''60! LOL!

 

[ImpatientOne]

Date: 1/7/2008 1:43:41 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 1/6/2008 7:55:40 PM
Author: EBree

Date: 1/5/2008 9:12:20 AM
Author: Rank Amateur

There is nothing wrong with the desire to have a Christian in the WhiteHouse. Maybe an ordained minister is exactly what we need. It depends on the person.

Am I to assume you''re Christian?

ya have a problem with that?
The greatest presidents of all time where Christians, 99% of the founding fathers where Christians.
Frankly the Christian bashing in this thread is making me ill.
I am a Christian Patriot who will fight for your right to believe what you want, as long as it don''t interfere with me practicing as I see fit.
It is none of my business what someone else believes and they have the same right I do too believe what they want.
Frankly for all the talk of Christians this and that I''m finding the non-Christians are the ones on the attack...
Well all iv got to say is come get some :}
There is a gun on top of my Bible so come in peace or come prepared for war.

Strmrdr - couldn''t have said it better myself!

THANK YOU!

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 1/4/2008 10:06:39 PM
Author: Apsara
Is anyone alarmed that Obama won? Does anyone know why he won't sing our national anthem or wear a flag pin? I am asking seriously.... not being fascitious. And who is he really? Something about him scares me. Big time.

I don't care what color ro gender peope are so it is SO not about that (I had hoped Hillary would win--I am a registerd Republican but I never vote strictly along part lines...and I'd consider voting for Hillary and would like to see two somewhat decent candidates emerge).... Obama really scares me. I don't like him.

I'm not alarmed that he won, but I am alarmed by your post. Here is some info about Obama:

Obama was elected to the Illinois State Senate in 1996 from the state's 13th District in the south-side Chicago neighborhood of Hyde Park.[32] In 2000, he made an unsuccessful Democratic primary run for the U.S. House of Representatives seat held by four-term incumbent candidate Bobby Rush.[33] He was reelected to the Illinois Senate in 1998 and 2002, officially resigning in November 2004 following his election to the U.S. Senate.[34][35] As a state legislator, Obama worked with both Democrats and Republicans in drafting successful legislation on ethics and health care reform.[36] He sponsored a law enhancing tax credits for low-income workers, negotiated welfare reform, and promoted increased subsidies for child care.[37] Obama also led the passage of legislation mandating videotaping of homicide interrogations, and a law to monitor racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of drivers they stopped.[37][38] During his 2004 general election campaign for U.S. Senate, Obama won the endorsement of the Illinois Fraternal Order of Police, whose president credited him with having been "immensely helpful in working with police organizations" on death penalty reform.[39] He was criticized by a rival pro-choice candidate in the Democratic primary and by his Republican pro-life opponent in the general election for having voted either "present" or "no" on anti-abortion legislation.[36][40]

You can read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama. Now, what exactly are you afraid of?

When I was 12 years old I officially stopped singing the national anthem and doing the pledge of allegiance. By highschool I caught a lot of flack from teachers and school administration but stood my ground. My 9th grade English teacher forced me to write a paper about why I wouldn't pledge or otherwise face punishment. I thought it was quite rude that other kids could cite religious beliefs for not pledging but I couldn't cite a simple disbelief in the pledge. However, after writing the paper my teacher honored my request not to stand up and pledge. My reason? I do not believe in the pledge of allegiance. As a young black female I did not feel the country honored the words. I said that the day that the country truly became one nation with liberty and justice for all, I would proudly stand. I still do not believe the country has done this and I still don't pledge or sing the national anthem. I do not believe that the lack of me doing so makes me any less American. Nor do I think it should be a qualification for the leader of the country. The job of the leader should be to make sure this country lives up to its words, i.e. the pledge and the Constitution.

 

[HollyS]

Date: 1/4/2008 10:10:31 AM
Author:HollyS
You was surprised to see Huckabee have such a huge win over Romney, and Hillary come in 3rd?

Amazing. Even more amazing was the estimate that only about 1/10th the state''s voters would even bother turning out. Good heavens, what is wrong with people!

Okay, I guess I need better proof reading skills! I don''t normally say "you was"!

 

[HollyS]

Date: 1/4/2008 3:20:35 PM
Author: MC

Date: 1/4/2008 1:59:15 PM
Author: surfgirl
HuckWHO? Yeah, that surprised me. As did Obama''s victory but at least I feel we have a decent selection on that side of the fence. Looking at the other side, it''s scary to see all the religiously influenced candidates...Makes you wonder if anyone remembers this thing called ''separation of church and state''.

As for low voter turn out, I heard that Dem''s made up the majority of those turning out, which was nice to hear but surprising nonetheless. I honestly get so disgusted with people here who dont bother to vote because they''re ''too busy''. I sometimes wish I could gather up all those people who cant be be bothered to vote, and send them to a place where voting isn''t a right (like, say, Myanmar), and make them live there for one year. And only let them come home if they promise to vote every year for the rest of their lives. Seriously. There is NO excuse for not voting in a country where voting is your birth right.

Some people work min. wage jobs though and cannot take time off from work to vote or they will lose out on desperately needed money, so I think it''s a bit harsh to say it''s ''disgusting.'' Everyone SHOULD do absentee ballots though, so that would solve the problem for a majority.

The religious aspect of the election scares the h*ll out of me!!! I do not think a preacher should be allowed to be president! It''s highly offensive to me that a person would step up and represent America with such a strong tendancy to one specific religious belief system when so many of us have other beliefs. I feel that if he becomes president, I''ll have to defend my own belief system even more often.

I don''t know where you live, but I suspect you have the option to "early vote" in many elections rather than take time the day of. As for a caucus, where my vote would count in whether my candidate of choice received their party''s nomination, I would get my fandango out the door, come hell or high water, to vote. Period.

 

[HollyS]

I''ll just gently remind everyone that big religious discussions are a no-no here on PS because it is such a volatile subject. And please remember, if you want to be treated with respect, give respect to your fellow posters. We can agree, with civility, to disagree.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/10/2008 5:47:00 PM
Author: MoonWater


When I was 12 years old I officially stopped singing the national anthem and doing the pledge of allegiance. By highschool I caught a lot of flack from teachers and school administration but stood my ground. My 9th grade English teacher forced me to write a paper about why I wouldn''t pledge or otherwise face punishment. I thought it was quite rude that other kids could cite religious beliefs for not pledging but I couldn''t cite a simple disbelief in the pledge. However, after writing the paper my teacher honored my request not to stand up and pledge. My reason? I do not believe in the pledge of allegiance. As a young black female I did not feel the country honored the words. I said that the day that the country truly became one nation with liberty and justice for all, I would proudly stand. I still do not believe the country has done this and I still don''t pledge or sing the national anthem. I do not believe that the lack of me doing so makes me any less American. Nor do I think it should be a qualification for the leader of the country. The job of the leader should be to make sure this country lives up to its words, i.e. the pledge and the Constitution.

I just read this, MoonWater, and found it very inspiring. You were a very thoughtful child as well as a very brave one! Who got you thinking about social issues at such an early age? You were obviously very thoughtful all your life.

Deborah

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 1/27/2008 7:11:04 PM
Author: AGBF


I just read this, MoonWater, and found it very inspiring. You were a very thoughtful child as well as a very brave one! Who got you thinking about social issues at such an early age? You were obviously very thoughtful all your life.


Deborah

Hi Deborah, thanks! Honestly, it''s hard for a young black child, that grows up in the inner city, not to be exposed to social issues because you basically live them. I suppose I was different as I actually took real issue with them, but I''ve always been a severely logical person. It''s probably not even an asset at this point as I seem to annoy people. I just think this country, on paper, is absolutely amazing (and off paper as well, I don''t take my freedoms for granted). I just wish we would strive more to live up to the foundation and legacy left to us by the framers.

 

[MoonWater]

bumping this because it turns out that info about Obama not doing the pledge or being patriotic was BS:

Obama is a patriot