Arguing with vendor over purchased Spinel

[Odyssey44]

I bought this from a well regarded vendor and was told it was cut by a master cutter with no windows. I specifically asked about the windows. This is the vendor picture.

I see windows in it once getting it. A big tilt window, and a little window in the middle. It is a lot easier to see on black. He is arguing with me now when I contacted him to say I was unhappy with the windows when I specifically asked. He says these are not windows (denies existence of tilt window--says every stone in the world has it) and claims the middle window is not a window because I am not showing it from the front!!! I said I am and this is looking straight down on it. He said no, it is lopsided, bigger on the left, so it cannot be the front. I cannot really believe this is happening. He told me to post on pricescope, that I am not understanding these are not windows.

 

[Autumn in New England]

I bought this from a well regarded vendor and was told it was cut by a master cutter with no windows. I specifically asked about the windows. This is the vendor picture.

I see windows in it once getting it. A big tilt window, and a little window in the middle. It is a lot easier to see on black. He is arguing with me now when I contacted him to say I was unhappy with the windows when I specifically asked. He says these are not windows (denies existence of tilt window--says every stone in the world has it) and claims the middle window is not a window because I am not showing it from the front!!! I said I am and this is looking straight down on it. He said no, it is lopsided, bigger on the left, so it cannot be the front. I cannot really believe this is happening. He told me to post on pricescope, that I am not understanding these are not windows.

So unless it's egregious, I'm not too bothered by tilt windows. Pretty much every gem has them. We're meant to look at stones straight on through the table or at gentle angles. So I really wouldn't worry too much about that. I mean, there looks to be maybe a couple of open facets at the culet, but I think the black background is exaggerating it. That being said, I'll withhold any comments on whether it's "master cut." I am not a cut connoisseur. It's color all the way for me and cut is a distant second (although I'm more sensitive to windows). I'll let others chime in on that aspect. Does the seller accept returns? Do you like everything else? It's a pretty bubblegum pink.

 

[Odyssey44]

Thanks Autumn. It is the one in the middle that bothers me most because it is always there, however I tilt it. I do like the color and the clarity.
Here is picture of it on my hand--I feel that middle is pretty see through. Lots of fingerprints, sorry!

 

[natasha-cupcake]

Looks like a small window to me. And it's not just the culet looking bit. The hazy, almost matte looking circle around the dark area is an artifact of photographing windowed stones. I expect tilt windows in colored stones, but a "true" window, even a small one, drives me nuts. I personally, HATE them, so I understand your frustration. I've also had the experience of having a vendor tell me that no window was present, yet there it was.

That being said, it's a pretty stone with a beautiful color, and the window may close up in the right setting. It's so hard to find reasonably priced, beautifully colored gems without windows, unfortunately, so there's that to contend with, as well

 

[Odyssey44]

Vendor said I should post video he sent and explanation of why what I am seeing is not a window.
https://www.rarecarat.com/diamond/138437072/0.86ct-d-vs1-rare-carat-ideal-cut-oval-lab-grown-diamond

 

[Autumn in New England]

Thanks Autumn. It is the one in the middle that bothers me most because it is always there, however I tilt it. I do like the color and the clarity.
Here is picture of it on my hand--I feel that middle is pretty see through. Lots of fingerprints, sorry!

Hmm... yeah, even in the vendor photo I do see some loss of light through a few pavilion facets, and it looks worse on your hand. Is your skin touching the pavilion? That will enhance it. We all have a different tolerance for these things. I don't want to offend the vendor, but it does look like a small window to me. Do you have tweezers? That's the best way to judge how the cut will look once set.

 

[Odyssey44]

Looks like a small window to me. And it's not just the culet looking bit. The hazy, almost matte looking circle around the dark area is an artifact of photographing windowed stones. I expect tilt windows in colored stones, but a "true" window, even a small one, drives me nuts. I personally, HATE them, so I understand your frustration. I've also had the experience of having a vendor tell me that no window was present, yet there it was.

That being said, it's a pretty stone with a beautiful color, and the window may close up in the right setting. It's so hard to find reasonably priced, beautifully colored gems without windows, unfortunately, so there's that to contend with, as well

Thanks a lot Natasha. I have had it out photographing it a bunch now, so it is messy. I don't want to play with it to clean it off more when I am feeling somewhat upset. I just know I see a perfect circle of skin in the middle of that last picture and that has to be a window. I hate windows too. The vendor has said he would see what he could do about trading it, which I do appreciate. But I wish I had not been told there are no windows. This window was never going to really show itself with white underneath. I also did not realize tilt windows were always expected with colored stones. I thought a good cut would eliminate them.
I do really love the color. Sigh. Not sure yet what to do. If I see it, it will always bother me and I won't wear it.

 

[Autumn in New England]

Vendor said I should post video he sent and explanation of why what I am seeing is not a window.
https://www.rarecarat.com/diamond/138437072/0.86ct-d-vs1-rare-carat-ideal-cut-oval-lab-grown-diamond

In this example, he's showing the "tilt" window... and he's right. Again, I wouldn't worry much about that. But like @natasha-cupcake, I'm also seeing a small "true" window. He (or she) may feel it is insignificant, especially since it was "master cut." But if it bothers you, I wouldn't keep it. Never has a piece I didn't love "grown on me." I always end up selling them.

 

[Odyssey44]

Hmm... yeah, even in the vendor photo I do see some loss of light through a few pavilion facets, and it looks worse on your hand. Is your skin touching the pavilion? That will enhance it. We all have a different tolerance for these things. I don't want to offend the vendor, but it does look like a small window to me. Do you have tweezers? That's the best way to judge how the cut will look once set.

See, I missed that. I should really post every stone I am considering.
Yes, it is touching my skin. There was no other way to get the stone to sit between my fingers. I have tweezers, yes. I will see if I can get a shot with them.

 

[Avondale]

The vendor is not wrong in saying that the tilt window is basically unavoidable. Depending on the stone, some will have more prominent tilt windows than others. But no cut exists that would eliminate them entirely. The reason diamonds are less prone to tilt windows is their high refractive index, not their cutting. The tilt window, in that sense, would not bother me personally.

The actual window does exist but it's very very small. For most people it would be insignificant to the point of not mattering at all, which might explain why the vendor described the stone as not windowed. I believe the issue here lies in miscommunication and possibly some assumptions being made. There's no way for you to know what the vendor assumes about your tastes, but there's also no way for the vendor to know just how exacting you are in your preferences for good cutting.

Is your skin touching the pavilion? That will enhance it.

This a thousand times.

I have a couple of stones with windows of a similar size to the one in this spinel. One ruby that is set and the window is basically gone, you have to put something black behind the stone to see it, or hold it up to the light. And one sapphire that's still loose but I have no doubt its window will have the same fate.

Ultimately, if the current cut of the stone is bothering you to such an extent, see what can be done about returning it. Do communicate your preference about absolutely no window in any stone you want to own, and also ask to see how prominent the tilt windows are in any stone you might be considering. This way you'll have better idea of what you'll receive and will be able to better manage your expectations so you don't have to go through the stress and disappointment.

 

[Autumn in New England]

@Avondale 100% And I never, ever exam a gem on my hand. In fact, I never touch them period. I hate oil transfer. But, also, as soon as facets come into contact with the skin, they disappear. So that can be misleading. And viewing them in the gem box can hide defects. Tweezers all the way. Then sometimes I cup my hand in the back to imitate the way the pavilion will be shadowed in the mounting. I need to get one of those temporary rings with the claws, like @Dr_Diesel.

 

[Autumn in New England]

See, I missed that. I should really post every stone I am considering.
Yes, it is touching my skin. There was no other way to get the stone to sit between my fingers. I have tweezers, yes. I will see if I can get a shot with them.

Yeah it's subtle, but it's there in the vendor pic as well. The more you see, the easier it will be to judge. I *think* you'll notice a difference in the tweezers. Now if it still bothers you then, you might want to consider moving on from this one. As others have said, a small window can "close up" when set. But it's not guaranteed.

 

[Avondale]

I need to get one of those temporary rings with the claws, like @Dr_Diesel.

Minor thread derailing, but I've read from other people that ring holders are difficult to operate and can easily lead to stones flying off in random directions. It's why I got a claw thingie, much easier to operate, and perfectly stable.

But the best option, if you ask me, is the loop gem holder, which is kinda in between claw thingie and tweezers. Looks like this:



If I manage to find one on AliExpress, I'm totally ordering one.

 

[Autumn in New England]

Minor thread derailing, but I've read from other people that ring holders are difficult to operate and can easily lead to stones flying off in random directions. It's why I got a claw thingie, much easier to operate, and perfectly stable.

But the best option, if you ask me, is the loop gem holder, which is kinda in between claw thingie and tweezers. Looks like this:



If I manage to find one on AliExpress, I'm totally ordering one.

Claw thingie! Yes, I have the standard one, but don't love it. I need to try that new fangled one. Right now I just use an old-fashioned locking tweezer.

 

[Rfisher]

He told me to post on pricescope

This makes me want to know the vendor more than anything. lol.



Odyssey -
Im sorry the expectation vs reality didn’t hit.
Others have already said everything I can suggest.
Maybe carefully wrap it up in a bit of foil to see if a more enclosed setting will close that small window. As for tilt window it shows - I don’t think there’s a minimizer for that, sadly.

What does the vendors written return policy state?
If you don’t like it - then you don’t like it. Return it.

 

[Autumn in New England]

This makes me want to know the vendor more than anything. lol.



Odyssey -
Im sorry the expectation vs reality didn’t hit.
Others have already said everything I can suggest.
Maybe carefully wasp it up in a bit of foil to see if a more enclosed setting will close that small window. As for tilt window it shows - I don’t think there’s a minimizer for that, sadly.

What does the vendors written return policy state?
If you don’t like it - then you don’t like it. Return it.

Right? Typically they hate us... and this one might now. lol

 

[Odyssey44]

OK, this took longer than I expected. I did my very best to keep the stone level, and have some different colored backgrounds. The outline of the window changes, as it is probably impossible to keep your wrist at the exact same angle for different photos.

 

[Autumn in New England]

OK, this took longer than I expected. I did my very best to keep the stone level, and have some different colored backgrounds. The outline of the window changes, as it is probably impossible to keep your wrist at the exact same angle for different photos.

Yep, it's windowed. The end.

 

[Autumn in New England]

So sorry for the disappointment, my friend. It's happened to all of us, especially at the beginning. Keep chugging along!

 

[Odyssey44]

And for kicks the underside of the stone.

 

[Odyssey44]

The vendor is not wrong in saying that the tilt window is basically unavoidable. Depending on the stone, some will have more prominent tilt windows than others. But no cut exists that would eliminate them entirely. The reason diamonds are less prone to tilt windows is their high refractive index, not their cutting. The tilt window, in that sense, would not bother me personally.

The actual window does exist but it's very very small. For most people it would be insignificant to the point of not mattering at all, which might explain why the vendor described the stone as not windowed. I believe the issue here lies in miscommunication and possibly some assumptions being made. There's no way for you to know what the vendor assumes about your tastes, but there's also no way for the vendor to know just how exacting you are in your preferences for good cutting.



This a thousand times.

I have a couple of stones with windows of a similar size to the one in this spinel. One ruby that is set and the window is basically gone, you have to put something black behind the stone to see it, or hold it up to the light. And one sapphire that's still loose but I have no doubt its window will have the same fate.

Ultimately, if the current cut of the stone is bothering you to such an extent, see what can be done about returning it. Do communicate your preference about absolutely no window in any stone you want to own, and also ask to see how prominent the tilt windows are in any stone you might be considering. This way you'll have better idea of what you'll receive and will be able to better manage your expectations so you don't have to go through the stress and disappointment.

The vendor is not wrong in saying that the tilt window is basically unavoidable. Depending on the stone, some will have more prominent tilt windows than others. But no cut exists that would eliminate them entirely. The reason diamonds are less prone to tilt windows is their high refractive index, not their cutting. The tilt window, in that sense, would not bother me personally.

The actual window does exist but it's very very small. For most people it would be insignificant to the point of not mattering at all, which might explain why the vendor described the stone as not windowed. I believe the issue here lies in miscommunication and possibly some assumptions being made. There's no way for you to know what the vendor assumes about your tastes, but there's also no way for the vendor to know just how exacting you are in your preferences for good cutting.



This a thousand times.

I have a couple of stones with windows of a similar size to the one in this spinel. One ruby that is set and the window is basically gone, you have to put something black behind the stone to see it, or hold it up to the light. And one sapphire that's still loose but I have no doubt its window will have the same fate.

Ultimately, if the current cut of the stone is bothering you to such an extent, see what can be done about returning it. Do communicate your preference about absolutely no window in any stone you want to own, and also ask to see how prominent the tilt windows are in any stone you might be considering. This way you'll have better idea of what you'll receive and will be able to better manage your expectations so you don't have to go through the stress and disappointment.

I always get more and more educated here. Thank you for contributing to my education! I did specifically say the words "Are there any windows?" And was told no, none. I suppose I have to ask twice about even a little one in the future. But if a vendor does not consider this a window, I don't see how I would ever get a yes. This is a problem of course with not getting to hold the stone in your hand and see it with your own eyes. I also specifically asked if this was precision cut and was told it was recut by a master cutter. I realized at the time that he was not answering my specific question, so I knew I was not buying a precision cut, but was willing to buy based on a master cutter. He is saying he would see what he could do about exchanging.
Do you wear your ruby regularly? Was the setting special in any way to account for closing the window?

 

[Odyssey44]

Yep, it's windowed. The end.

Does it change shape so radically because of the slight change in position of my wrist? I did not expect it to look so different in some pictures.

 

[Odyssey44]

So sorry for the disappointment, my friend. It's happened to all of us, especially at the beginning. Keep chugging along!

Thanks for knowing *exactly* what to say to me. Hugs to you!!

 

[Odyssey44]

This makes me want to know the vendor more than anything. lol.



Odyssey -
Im sorry the expectation vs reality didn’t hit.
Others have already said everything I can suggest.
Maybe carefully wrap it up in a bit of foil to see if a more enclosed setting will close that small window. As for tilt window it shows - I don’t think there’s a minimizer for that, sadly.

What does the vendors written return policy state?
If you don’t like it - then you don’t like it. Return it.

Thank you! I will try that and see. There was no written return policy, but the vendor is saying I could trade it.

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

If I was to resell a spinel like this I would describe it as “small window that will probably close when set” because these small windows typically look better and may disappear when set. But it’s still a window. Can’t imagine why someone would say it’s not.

What looks like copper inclusions in the stone are cool.

 

[Odyssey44]

If I was to resell a spinel like this I would describe it as “small window that will probably close when set” because these small windows typically look better and may disappear when set. But it’s still a window. Can’t imagine why someone would say it’s not.

What looks like copper inclusions in the stone are cool.

Thanks Lisa. This is it--people who sell have to know if the stone has a window. It seems a black or white question, yes or no, and then the modifiers of tiny or small or whatever can come into play.

 

[Autumn in New England]

Does it change shape so radically because of the slight change in position of my wrist? I did not expect it to look so different in some pictures.

When cut to exacting proportions, pavilion facets should "ping" (as I like to call it) all at once when viewed head on. A few of the facets aren't pinging, because the angles aren't quite right. So as you turn the stone, those that are pinging and those that are open will sort of rotate. Does that make sense? lol

 

[Avondale]

I suppose I have to ask twice about even a little one in the future. But if a vendor does not consider this a window, I don't see how I would ever get a yes.

Unfortunately this is not the first, nor will it be the last time such an issue arises. The best you can do is communicate very clearly what you want and what you mean. This won't prevent vendors from still providing inaccurate information, but at the very least having previous written and clear communication will give you solid footing to request solutions.

I also specifically asked if this was precision cut and was told it was recut by a master cutter. I realized at the time that he was not answering my specific question, so I knew I was not buying a precision cut, but was willing to buy based on a master cutter.

I'd say that you were right, in general, to trust a cut by a someone represented as a master cutter. Precision cuts have their place, of course, but there's varying quality between different designs and lapidaries. In the end it all boils down to how well the cutter understands the material. A good native cut can be just as stunning and beautiful as a good precision cut, and will definitely outperform a poor precision cut.

In time you'll learn to spot and see all sorts of cutting flaws by looking at pictures and videos.

Do you wear your ruby regularly? Was the setting special in any way to account for closing the window?

I do, in fact it's been all but glued to my hand this past week. In hindsight, it was an excellent purchase, even though it was put under some scrutiny by fellow PSers back when I was in the process of buying it. And no, the setting is not in any way special - it's in fact entirely open under the stone.

Underneath (it's dirty, I know):



Window:



On hand:



My phone never manages to capture the colour adequately, but at least you see the situation with the window well enough.

 

[Odyssey44]

When cut to exacting proportions, pavilion facets should "ping" (as I like to call it) all at once when viewed head on. A few of the facets aren't pinging, because the angles aren't quite right. So as you turn the stone, those that are pinging and those that are open will sort of rotate. Does that make sense? lol

I think so. Pinging meaning kind of like lighting up, or turning on?

 

[Autumn in New England]

Thanks Lisa. This is it--people who sell have to know if the stone has a window. It seems a black or white question, yes or no, and then the modifiers of tiny or small or whatever can come into play.

I don't understand it either, but like @natasha-cupcake said, vendors will often say there is no window, and then there it is once received. I don't think this person was trying to mislead you, especially if they told you to poll PS (they know we're savage). I think vendors just tend to regard windows as being more dramatic than what we're seeing here. However, we as collectors see even the most subtle of them as problematic. But I also agree with @Lisa Loves Shiny... if I were selling this stone, and especially if someone specifically asked, I would call this a small window.