Arguing with vendor over purchased Spinel

[Odyssey44]

Well, I sent the vendor the tweezer photos. He said they prove his point because the windows are not the same size and in the same position. That means they are caused by different viewing angles. So he did not misrepresent by saying no windows.

I said there is a window right in the middle that is always there.

He is saying I can exchange the stone. I will say here also that the vendor has always answered me, and I still think they are nice. They think they did not misrepresent the stone. We have a difference of opinion there.

 

[Odyssey44]

Unfortunately this is not the first, nor will it be the last time such an issue arises. The best you can do is communicate very clearly what you want and what you mean. This won't prevent vendors from still providing inaccurate information, but at the very least having previous written and clear communication will give you solid footing to request solutions.

So the vendor thinks my tweezer pictures do not show a window because they are all tilt windows. I think I am going to be fairly afraid of buying another stone until I train my own eye better. Every time I think I have it down, something escapes my eye. It is pretty discouraging.

I'd say that you were right, in general, to trust a cut by a someone represented as a master cutter. Precision cuts have their place, of course, but there's varying quality between different designs and lapidaries. In the end it all boils down to how well the cutter understands the material. A good native cut can be just as stunning and beautiful as a good precision cut, and will definitely outperform a poor precision cut.

This is something really good (and prescient) of you to remind me. I was thinking maybe I should only ever buy precision stones in the future. But there can be bad quality precision cuts too.

I am stunned your ring is completely open in the back! I am assuming you cannot see this with your naked eye--the "shadow" of the window, for lack of a better word. I love carved, leafy settings. Yours is beautiful.

 

[Odyssey44]

I don't understand it either, but like @natasha-cupcake said, vendors will often say there is no window, and then there it is once received. I don't think this person was trying to mislead you, especially if they told you to poll PS (they know we're savage). I think vendors just tend to regard windows as being more dramatic than what we're seeing here. However, we as collectors see even the most subtle of them as problematic. But I also agree with @Lisa Loves Shiny... if I were selling this stone, and especially if someone specifically asked, I would call this a small window.

Thanks Autumn. I agree, they are doubling down and I believe they do not think they misled me either. I am sad there can't be agreement on what constitutes a window.

 

[Autumn in New England]

Well, I sent the vendor the tweezer photos. He said they prove his point because the windows are not the same size and in the same position. That means they are caused by different viewing angles. So he did not misrepresent by saying no windows.

I said there is a window right in the middle that is always there.

He is saying I can exchange the stone. I will say here also that the vendor has always answered me, and I still think they are nice. They think they did not misrepresent the stone. We have a difference of opinion there.

I disagree with him that windows are inherently static. In my opinion, if light travels straight through the table of the stone and out the pavilion, it's windowed, hence the term. Again, we're differentiating between this and a tilt window (which is quite normal). He can call it whatever he wants, but it's a cutting defect, albeit a minor one. If I were him, I wouldn't argue, especially since you inquired beforehand. I hope he makes it right for you. One question... is this person in the US?

 

[Dr_Diesel]

So unless it's egregious, I'm not too bothered by tilt windows. Pretty much every gem has them. We're meant to look at stones straight on through the table or at gentle angles. So I really wouldn't worry too much about that. I mean, there looks to be maybe a couple of open facets at the culet, but I think the black background is exaggerating it. That being said, I'll withhold any comments on whether it's "master cut." I am not a cut connoisseur. It's color all the way for me and cut is a distant second (although I'm more sensitive to windows). I'll let others chime in on that aspect. Does the seller accept returns? Do you like everything else? It's a pretty bubblegum pink.

Agree 100%

 

[Autumn in New England]

Thanks Autumn. I agree, they are doubling down and I believe they do not think they misled me either. I am sad there can't be agreement on what constitutes a window.

I truly don't think he misled you, intentionally or otherwise. But I do think his interpretation of what constitutes a window is a bit askew.

 

[Dr_Diesel]

The vendor is not wrong in saying that the tilt window is basically unavoidable. Depending on the stone, some will have more prominent tilt windows than others. But no cut exists that would eliminate them entirely. The reason diamonds are less prone to tilt windows is their high refractive index, not their cutting. The tilt window, in that sense, would not bother me personally.

The actual window does exist but it's very very small. For most people it would be insignificant to the point of not mattering at all, which might explain why the vendor described the stone as not windowed. I believe the issue here lies in miscommunication and possibly some assumptions being made. There's no way for you to know what the vendor assumes about your tastes, but there's also no way for the vendor to know just how exacting you are in your preferences for good cutting.



This a thousand times.

I have a couple of stones with windows of a similar size to the one in this spinel. One ruby that is set and the window is basically gone, you have to put something black behind the stone to see it, or hold it up to the light. And one sapphire that's still loose but I have no doubt its window will have the same fate.

Ultimately, if the current cut of the stone is bothering you to such an extent, see what can be done about returning it. Do communicate your preference about absolutely no window in any stone you want to own, and also ask to see how prominent the tilt windows are in any stone you might be considering. This way you'll have better idea of what you'll receive and will be able to better manage your expectations so you don't have to go through the stress and disappointment.

Well-spoken!

 

[Autumn in New England]

I think so. Pinging meaning kind of like lighting up, or turning on?

Exactly!

 

[Dr_Diesel]

@Avondale 100% And I never, ever exam a gem on my hand. In fact, I never touch them period. I hate oil transfer. But, also, as soon as facets come into contact with the skin, they disappear. So that can be misleading. And viewing them in the gem box can hide defects. Tweezers all the way. Then sometimes I cup my hand in the back to imitate the way the pavilion will be shadowed in the mounting. I need to get one of those temporary rings with the claws, like @Dr_Diesel.

Amazon!

Amazon.com

 

[Dr_Diesel]

OK, this took longer than I expected. I did my very best to keep the stone level, and have some different colored backgrounds. The outline of the window changes, as it is probably impossible to keep your wrist at the exact same angle for different photos.

Yes, this would definitely bother me. No doubt about it. That’s a window.

 

[Dr_Diesel]

Well, I sent the vendor the tweezer photos. He said they prove his point because the windows are not the same size and in the same position. That means they are caused by different viewing angles. So he did not misrepresent by saying no windows.

I said there is a window right in the middle that is always there.

He is saying I can exchange the stone. I will say here also that the vendor has always answered me, and I still think they are nice. They think they did not misrepresent the stone. We have a difference of opinion there.

Personally, I think I’d be fuming.

 

[Odyssey44]

I disagree with him that windows are inherently static. In my opinion, if light travels straight through the table of the stone and out the pavilion, it's windowed, hence the term. Again, we're differentiating between this and a tilt window (which is quite normal). He can call it whatever he wants, but it's a cutting defect, albeit a minor one. If I were him, I wouldn't argue, especially since you inquired beforehand. I hope he makes it right for you. One question... is this person in the US?

This makes sense. I can always see the window right smack in the middle, even if the outer borders change.
To answer your question: No. So shipping was expensive. I am not actually seeing anything else I want to exchange for and would rather not keep my cash sunk in this while waiting. I will likely visit here in the Fall and he said I could exchange it then. I initially said I wanted to return it. I am going to ask for that again. I did ask him about windows and there are no pictures I can take of this stone that shows it without a middle window. It was $800 and I would much rather put that towards another stone sooner rather than later.

 

[Odyssey44]

Yes, this would definitely bother me. No doubt about it. That’s a window.

Really appreciate you weighing in Doc. I have seen your expertise with spinels.

 

[Autumn in New England]

Yes, this would definitely bother me. No doubt about it. That’s a window.

Same. In viewing the first photos, I didn't think it would bug me. But yeah, it's not something I could tolerate. And I'm not quite as sensitive as others here about cut quality. I mean, it's not the "crime of the century" or anything, but I think he should just own it and give OP some satisfaction.

 

[Odyssey44]

Personally, I think I’d be fuming.

To tell you the truth, I am feeling more and more that way. He is making me feel like Alice in Wonderland and up is down. He told me to go to PS and I did. I accept completely the tilt window is unavoidable. I said each and every person that has answered says the tilt window is unavoidable but the middle window is, in fact, a window. He answered that experienced people would know from my very first photo it is not a window. It is infuriating. I want to return this.

 

[Autumn in New England]

This makes sense. I can always see the window right smack in the middle, even if the outer borders change.
To answer your question: No. So shipping was expensive. I am not actually seeing anything else I want to exchange for and would rather not keep my cash sunk in this while waiting. I will likely visit here in the Fall and he said I could exchange it then. I initially said I wanted to return it. I am going to ask for that again. I did ask him about windows and there are no pictures I can take of this stone that shows it without a middle window. It was $800 and I would much rather put that towards another stone sooner rather than later.

How did you pay?

 

[Odyssey44]

How did you pay?

Unfortunately, by Wise transfer. So I am at his mercy.

 

[Autumn in New England]

To tell you the truth, I am feeling more and more that way. He is making me feel like Alice in Wonderland and up is down. He told me to go to PS and I did. I accept completely the tilt window is unavoidable. I said each and every person that has answered says the tilt window is unavoidable but the middle window is, in fact, a window. He answered that experienced people would know from my very first photo it is not a window. It is infuriating. I want to return this.

I wonder what he calls it when pavilion facets don't reflect light through the table when viewing the gem head on? If not a window, then what? Maybe this is just a matter of semantics. Because it's definitely a function of the cut. It may rotate when turned, but if it is always present no matter the angle, it's a defect. I'd say, collectively, there's wealth of experience here. The thing is, buyers and sellers see these issues differently.

 

[Autumn in New England]

Unfortunately, by Wise transfer. So I am at his mercy.

Gotcha. Well if he's a smart businessman, and he knows you've already consulted PS, he should be willing to accept a return. You have some leverage in that respect as well, if you understand my drift. He did not explicitly state "no returns," correct?

 

[pomo_juice]

Just wanted to commiserate with you here since I also had a bad spinel purchase recently and was told that I couldn’t tell red and purple apart. Also, that large fractures reaching the surface are “minor inclusions” Purchasing stones is hard…

 

[Autumn in New England]

Just wanted to commiserate with you here since I also had a bad spinel purchase recently and was told that I couldn’t tell red and purple apart. Also, that large fractures reaching the surface are “minor inclusions” Purchasing stones is hard…

I'm so sorry to hear that. As I said to OP earlier, it happens to the best of us. And every once in a while you will butt heads with a seller. Did they refund you?

 

[marymm]

Personally I would consider the photos to be exhibiting tilt windows, even the one the OP and posters are terming the middle window.

A true window wouldn't show half the facet meets (not sure that is the correct terminology) and half tilt window.

I just googled real quick to find an example

https://gemologyproject.com/wiki/index.php?title=Huynh_-_Beginner_Barion_Oval_aka_Quake311







If it was a re-cut, the master cutter was probably constrained by what was there to begin with; still, I don't think the execution is great.

IMHO I don't think the vendor was/is leading you on in his responses to your questions about windows.

It's a beautiful color stone.

 

[pomo_juice]

I'm so sorry to hear that. As I said to OP earlier, it happens to the best of us. And every once in a while you will butt heads with a seller. Did they refund you?

Nope! Didn't offer refund or exchanges. Told me to evaluate the stone again in a diamond halo ring at a jeweler. I was so tired of feeling gaslighten lol after the whole exchange. Well, I did get the stone look at by a local jeweler today and was told by the jeweler that setting the stone was a risk as well as using the stone as a ring bc of the large fractures, not to mention this jeweler thought I was charged crazy prices. This was all with a vendor whom several people had great experiences with and sang praises on PS and whom I've previously purchased from. Needless to say, I'm not gonna buy stones without seeing them in person anymore. Still shaken from this experience.

 

[Autumn in New England]

Nope! Didn't offer refund or exchanges. Told me to evaluate the stone again in a diamond halo ring at a jeweler. I was so tired of feeling gaslighten lol after the whole exchange. Well, I did get the stone look at by a local jeweler today and was told by the jeweler that setting the stone was a risk as well as using the stone as a ring bc of the large fractures, not to mention this jeweler thought I was charged crazy prices. This was all with a vendor whom several people had great experiences with and sang praises on PS and whom I've previously purchased from. Needless to say, I'm not gonna buy stones without seeing them in person anymore. Still shaken from this experience.

Oh no, that's terrible. Did you mention to him/her that your jeweler said there's a risk in setting it because of the fractures? Have them put it in writing. How did you pay?

 

[Avondale]

So the vendor thinks my tweezer pictures do not show a window because they are all tilt windows. I think I am going to be fairly afraid of buying another stone until I train my own eye better. Every time I think I have it down, something escapes my eye. It is pretty discouraging.

Calling them tilt windows is just basing it on a technicality. Can you look straight through the stone in the top down view? You can. It's clear you consider that an unwelcome distraction and don't want your stone to have such a characteristic.

I still think it's not too bad. The stone really does have a very pretty colour, and a little white metal underneath it in the setting is very likely to solve the issue. I'll second @Rfisher's advice - try it with some foil, you might be surprised by the result.

Also, give yourself some grace. Learning how to evaluate stones by photos is a lengthy process that's unlikely to progress much without an unpleasant experience/lesson every now and again. At the very least, you need to acquire some stones yourself, so that you can get acquainted with how they perform in both real life and in pictures. Without that basis for comparison it would be difficult to learn more.

But there can be bad quality precision cuts too.

Ask @Dr_Diesel about his experience with his fuchsia ruby...

I am stunned your ring is completely open in the back! I am assuming you cannot see this with your naked eye--the "shadow" of the window, for lack of a better word. I love carved, leafy settings. Yours is beautiful.

Thank you! As you can imagine, I love leafy motifs as well. You're assuming correctly, it's practically impossible to notice a window when wearing the ring. Take it off, and you'll be able to see it, but I guess something about the combination of the colour and skin tone underneath makes it disappear completely.

 

[Autumn in New England]

I feel like @Avondale is always the calm voice of reason here... lol It's wise to listen to her.

 

[Mrsz1ppy]

I have been in your position, albeit with inclusions and color rather than window. It is a learning experience, buying a gemstone over the internet. An experience that can be extremely frustrating if a stone is not as represented. Pretty much impossible to return an overseas purchase unless you go in person.

I will say, the color is lovely. It’s possible a recut could solve the problem. Are there really large fractures? I couldn’t see any. Is the local jeweler one you have a relationship with?

Sometimes this hobby can be frustrating. I have learned a lot from my mistakes. I hope you find a solution that satisfies you.

 

[glitterata]

That is definitely a window. A small window, maybe, but definitely a window. If the seller doesn't let you return it, I hope you will tell us who it is. I would like to avoid buying anything from them, and I bet I'm not the only one.

 

[pomo_juice]

Oh no, that's terrible. Did you mention to him/her that your jeweler said there's a risk in setting it because of the fractures? Have them put it in writing. How did you pay?

I haven't relayed that info yet. Might be worth a try? Paid via wire

Are there really large fractures? I couldn’t see any. Is the local jeweler one you have a relationship with?

Hey, I'm not sure if you are mixing my purchase with the OP's? I never posted pics of what I purchased to this thread. Only shared my experience to commiserate, and not my intention to derail from OP's post.

 

[Odyssey44]

I wonder what he calls it when pavilion facets don't reflect light through the table when viewing the gem head on? If not a window, then what? Maybe this is just a matter of semantics. Because it's definitely a function of the cut. It may rotate when turned, but if it is always present no matter the angle, it's a defect. I'd say, collectively, there's wealth of experience here. The thing is, buyers and sellers see these issues differently.

I will ask him.

Gotcha. Well if he's a smart businessman, and he knows you've already consulted PS, he should be willing to accept a return. You have some leverage in that respect as well, if you understand my drift. He did not explicitly state "no returns," correct?

I do! And, correct.