Asscher cut evaluation

[briggysmalls]

Hi everyone!

First off, I’m so grateful to all the knowledgable people contributing to this forum. I’ve really enjoyed studying the threads here. I also owe the folks over in “coloured gems” a thanks, as they warned me about soft emeralds being unsuitable for an engagement ring!

So now I feel ready to appeal for help. I’ve got some requirements, and tried to identify some good diamonds that I’d really appreciate a second opinion on. I'm a total novice, so it's likely I'm going to say something stupid. I warmly invite the experts here to correct my errors. With any luck this might become a useful thread for others like me in the future.

Finally, once again. Thank you to everyone here for being so generous with their time and expertise. I'm already indebted. And that's before any potential responses!

Requirements

• Natural diamond
• Asscher cut
• Budget preferably <=$31k. But could reach to ~$35k if something was worth it!
• ~3ct weight
• Colour - I’ve considered G-I. I don’t think my partner is that sensitive to colour. In fact she likes pale fancy yellow diamonds
• Clarity - I’ve considered VS2 and up (but perhaps at this size I should be considering higher?)
• A softer preference for a smaller table. We saw some IRL and liked how this reduced the glassy “glare”
• A softer preference for larger vs smaller cut corners
• I’m based in the UK, so I anticipate ordering online and having to evaluate on arrival & return if not pleasing. Unless there's some better suggestions.

Good options

Below I've shared my top 3 options. I have supplied links to the 360 video, and added notes that attempt to "show my working" on analysing the cut against my criteria (if interesting, see next section for criteria).

This is where I'd really be grateful for any corrections in errors trying to evaluate the cut.

Name/link	Photo	360 video	Pros	Cons
1. “Target in the centre”		http://www.adiamor.com/video-player.html?id=76710570	Concentric squares alternating between black and white for good contrast Windmills are very defined and evenly a mix of light and contrast. Symmetrical pattern across every windmill. Larger windmills Crisp crown arrows and crown pattern	Is there too much black? Does that suggest not bright enough? How much is faint fluorescence an issue?
2. Glittery		https://d360.tech/view.html?d=79-BB-5159600	Lots of “movement” in the middle Concentric squares Crisp crown arrows/crown pattern Less black than the previous one. Brighter?	Quite grey. Does that mean leakage? Meaning it’s actually not bright?
3. Crispest		https://d360.tech/view.html?d=79-BT-5165227	Clean crown arrows and crown pattern Symmetric, contrasty, and concentric table Quite bright "bow tie" right under the table	Thin windmills Too dark (much black) in the middle?

Next steps

Aside from getting expert advice here. I'm trying to determine my next steps. Some thoughts:

• Should I be requesting ASET images for these diamonds?
• B2C often seem to list diamonds without any image (e.g. this one). Should I be requesting those too?
• There are other vendors I've seen mentioned online. BlueNile, Good Old Gold. Should I be widening my search to these vendors too?

Appendix

This section has extra thoughts in if you are interested in reading/helping. But it's less relevant/important.

Bad examples

In order to "get my eye in" I'll also share diamonds that I thought were not a good cut, despite meeting the filter criteria.

I don't want to waste people's time. You can ignore this section. I just include it in case someone's interested / wants to correct my evaluation technique.

Name/link	360 video	Pros	Cons
Royal Asscher clone?	Can't extract	It's got 5 pavillion facets! fun! Does this make it a RA clone? Low table %	Strange ugly static grey square at the culet. It's completely grey in the middle. No light return?
Messy arrows	https://www.kashiimports.com/video/22957.mp4	Quite bright when off-centre	Lots of black facets next to each-other Messy arrows

Criteria and References

I thought I'd add this section to help anyone in a position like myself. I imagine this section is less interesting to experts as I'm simply restating their advice I've found on other threads:

The following 2 threads were absolute GOLD for learning about Asschers:

• https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/asscher-square-emerald-quest.21147/
• https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/all-about-asschers.24689/

strmrdr has been particularly active/helpful there. I’ve used their proportions/selection guidance and applied the following filters to my search:

• Symmetry: v good or above
• Polish: v good or above
• Table: 65% or below
• Depth: 65% - 70%
• LW ratio: 1.00-1.05

I then attempted to review 360 photos to evaluate the cut using the principles shared in those threads. But here I imagine I will have made many mistakes:

• Visual checks from srmrdr
• Example of too dark under table

Other context

This might not be relevant, but I plan to set in a yellow gold bezel band. The following image is the inspo I’ve been given from my partner. I share just in case it changes any advice regarding the diamond properties (colour, cut, etc)!

 

[Kim N]

Tagging Karl_K

 

[lovedogs]

Asschers are all about the movement IRL so I wouldn't consider anything without video. I can't click the adiamor video (it won't load), which Is unfortinste. I'll look at the others and see what I think and/or find alternatives.

 

[lovedogs]

Ps. In the inspo picture it shows a rose cut diamond. She explicitly wants an asscher, right?

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

B2C will get videos if you ask.

 

[tyty333]

I cant get the Adiamor video to play either.

 

[briggysmalls]

Asschers are all about the movement IRL so I wouldn't consider anything without video. I can't click the adiamor video (it won't load), which Is unfortinste. I'll look at the others and see what I think and/or find alternatives.

Ah that is frustrating, because I had thought it might be the better one I'd seen. The video was working earlier today, but yes it's definitely not working now
Thanks for checking out the others. But also they might be terrible. It would be really kind of you to find any alternatives!

I've sent Adiamor an email requesting the video to be sent to me.

Ps. In the inspo picture it shows a rose cut diamond. She explicitly wants an asscher, right?

Ah yes. I should have clarified. It's the bezel setting she likes, but an Asscher cut diamond, not a Rose cut! Thanks for checking

 

[briggysmalls]

Ok. I did some digging around the Adiamor website and managed to find the link it was mangling. So here is the video that was broken (the one I've affectionately named "1. Target in the centre")

http://dasny.dyndns.org:81/Vision360/38125.html

 

[Karl_K]

1 is oh so close, just a little over dark in the center in the vid. ASET needed to see if its a real word issue.

2 tiny windmills and overall not horribly but off

3 has p3 leakage issues on the to and bottom V in the center between windmills when face up. Worst of the 3.

Your one the right pass, based on your wants look for more like 1 and see about getting an aset image for it.
At this size dark zones become more noticeable.
You will also find a lot of not eyeclean vs2s
.

 

[Karl_K]

Flip em on the side in the video and look at the crown height, 1 has a very very nice ch, 3 is on the low side.
Its a quick check.

 

[lovedogs]

I agree with Karl. The 1st one is by far the best of the 3. But my worry is that it's overly dark in the center, especially when it's still and not moving. I don't really like 2 or 3 as much

 

[Karl_K]

the one labeled royal assher clone is cut with the facets of a ra but well bellow the better RAs in light performance.

 

[lovedogs]

the one labeled royal assher clone is cut with the facets of a ra but well bellow the better RAs in light performance.

Agreed. The center has issues.

 

[Karl_K]

Another tip when the table gets under 60 look at the crown height and its good then look at the mm measurements more than depth %.
Limiting the depth % can hide some real gems with good spread.

 

[briggysmalls]

1 is oh so close, just a little over dark in the center in the vid. ASET needed to see if its a real word issue.

2 tiny windmills and overall not horribly but off

3 has p3 leakage issues on the to and bottom V in the center between windmills when face up. Worst of the 3.

Your one the right pass, based on your wants look for more like 1 and see about getting an aset image for it.
At this size dark zones become more noticeable.
You will also find a lot of not eyeclean vs2s
.

Oh Karl thank you! That’s encouraging. Because I sent them in order of preference.

Flip em on the side in the video and look at the crown height, 1 has a very very nice ch, 3 is on the low side.
Its a quick check.

Crown height is an aspect I'm struggling with, because without a Sarin I can't see this height recorded anywhere. It appears desirable to have a crown height >10% of depth? Something more like 15% is good? Is that correct?

This is a great tip! So you're saying try to estimate by eye the crown vs total height %. With ~15% being desirable. Your eyes must be well-trained, because the 360 vid for #1 can't be put precisely side-on.

If I take #3 and put it side-on and measure the relative differences I see ~23% which sounds v high/wrong. Perhaps I've made a mistake in the distances I'm measuring between?

Another tip when the table gets under 60 look at the crown height and its good then look at the mm measurements more than depth %.
Limiting the depth % can hide some real gems with good spread.

Sorry, can I double-check what this means.
You are suggesting that I remove the hard filter in my search based on depth %?

This is because "real gems with good spread" could exist. That is... cuts that manage to have a low depth percentage but still achieve good performance & hall of mirrors effect etc?

You mention looking at the "mm measurements more than depth %". Can I ask what you would be looking for here?

Thanks everyone for all your help so far. I feel myself becoming obsessed with this stuff. Last night I dreamed of asscher cuts

 

[Karl_K]

Crown height like depth are relative to the diameter of the stone:
"Crown height percentage is calculated by dividing the actual height of the crown by the average diameter"
15%+ is a good target but if everything else is right 12% or so can work.
So you just have to guesstimate, id say that one is around 12% or so.
The first one is 15%+
..................
When I say mm spread I mean the mm LxW of the stone.
A stone with say 65T and 68% depth can have less mm spread than a stone with 60T and a 71% depth.
So there are 3 factors when the depth gets over 70 that makes it acceptable, small table, added crown height and close to the same mm spread as stones with less Depth %.

 

[briggysmalls]

Thanks Karl. Stupid questions from me. Also I just noticed your signature says you and strmrdr are one and the same! So much knowledge!

Ok great. This feels like I’m now ready to continue my hunt knowing what to look out for.

Regarding #1. Adiamor have got back to me saying the supplier doesn’t have an ASET, and instead just pointed to their returns policy. Which feels like would be a bit of a punt / liability…but maybe I’ll do it if I find nothing better in the next few weeks…

One final…perhaps dumb question. When looking at 360 videos I’ve considered “grey” as bad. I assumed this was leakage. But now I’ve seen videos with colours in (blues/orange/etc). Are colours in fact leakage? And greys similar to “green” in an ASET: less bright light? Or are grey and colours both leakage, it just depends on the background of the room the video was taken in?

1: white better than black better than grey better than colours.

2: white better than black better than grey or colours.

3: white better than grey better than black better than colours

Sorry for the really basic questions

 

[Karl_K]

360 vids
black = blue in aset mostly but can be green or red in ASET.
White = light return
Grey = one of 3 things, leakage, drawing light from a less bright area, less efficient at returning light.
Colors = A lot of the time are from the environment but blue can be produced by the stone itself dispersing light. Yellow or brown could be body color.
With step cuts which draw light from a larger area than rounds colors from the environment are much more common.

The most important thing they show you is the dance once it starts moving.
Watch out for very large areas of the stone all going dark at once or areas staying dark over a lot of movement which is not good.

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

I think these are great questions. I've been here for years and am still learning from discussions such as this. We all tug on Karl's sleeve from time to time.

 

[lulu_ma]

I think this stone is smaller than what you are looking for but it’s lovely:

2.01ct Asscher Cut Diamond Solitaire, GIA G SI1

Beyond beautiful - my favorite "flavor" asscher cut diamond shape. I just adore the octganonal vibes of the diamond with its dramatic cut corners and that crisp, visible cross facetig across the table. Mesmerizing diamond with its small table and culet.Set in a custom platinum setting by Single...

www.jewelsbygrace.com

 

[Dreamer_D]

Don’t be too hard on a vendor or supplier not having an ASET. I don’t think it’s a super common tool outside PS. And the business model of drop shippers and their suppliers is low prices for low service.

 

[briggysmalls]

Heya all. So I've done a bit more digging. If I could get any further steers on my new shortlist it would be very much appreciated!

I've widened the search to include more diamonds <3ct. This hopefully will capture more high quality cuts for the same budget. I've listed in descending order of "good". But as I've said before, my evaluation might be off:

• Top contender
  • This is the same as posted above. I don't think I've found anything better than this. I may bite the bullet. Purchase. And pray for good light return.
• Nice dance
  • More accessible video is here (slow to load but then you can drag it around better, or better yet just download it)
  • Pros:
    • Nice contrast and table dance
  • Cons:
    • Small windmills
    • Too dark under table?
    • Low crown?
    • Large table (65%)
• Contrasty
  • Pros:
    • Lots of dancing between bright and black
    • Not too dark
  • Cons:
    • Larger table (64%)
    • Can't really work out crown height... not as high as desirable?
    • Quite a lot of leakage
• Royal Asscher clone #2
  • Pros:
    • Royal Asscher! More dance?
    • Big windmills that appear bright?
    • Symmetric border of contrast around the centre
    • Ok crown height?
  • Cons:
    • "muddy" definition under table. Camera looks out of focus, but is this actually just poor cut?
    • Larger table (64%)
    • Windmills don't have any contrast (no black). Although perhaps a mix of leakage and brightness might give them some character?
• High crown
  • This one more "looks good in terms of stats", my eyes actually tell me it's not so nice to look at...
  • Pros:
    • AFAICS a very high crown?
    • 62% table is fairly low
    • Can see reflection of a serial number in the centre. If that's the camera that could be good? Direct reflection of light from over the table?
  • Cons:
    • A lot of leakage. Not much "dancing".
    • Smaller (both ct, and face-up size)
    • Squares a bit wonky / not perfectly concentric

Thanks again for the help all.

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

I like "nice dance," as long as it has no transparency issues.
It's what I would term, in my ignorance, a modern Asscher.

 

[briggysmalls]

For the fun of it, I'll repost with a picture of each one. For a bit more visual delight

Merry Christmas to everyone! Hope you have a lovely festive season. Thanks for all your help again. Here's to buying an Asscher in the New Year!

Top contender
https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/3.03-ct-I-VVS2-Affinity-Cut-Asscher-Diamond/D55569816?#


This is the same as posted above. I don't think I've found anything better than this. I may bite the bullet. Purchase. And pray for good light return.

Nice dance


Thanks for your feedback @Ibrakeforpossums! Your fav here

More accessible video is here (slow to load but then you can drag it around better, or better yet just download it)
Pros:

• Nice contrast and table dance

Cons:

• Small windmills
• Too dark under table?
• Low crown?
• Large table (65%)

Contrasty


Pros:

• Lots of dancing between bright and black
• Not too dark

Cons:

• Larger table (64%)
• Can't really work out crown height... not as high as desirable?
• Quite a lot of leakage

Royal Asscher clone #2

Whilst fuzzy, I quite like the contrast border around a light centre, I feel like I've seen Karl share examples that do similar. But I'm guessing the "muddiness" undoes that nice light pattern...
Pros:

• Royal Asscher! More dance?
• Big windmills that appear bright?
• Symmetric border of contrast around the centre
• Ok crown height?

Cons:

• "muddy" definition under table. Camera looks out of focus, but is this actually just poor cut?
• Larger table (64%)
• Windmills don't have any contrast (no black). Although perhaps a mix of leakage and brightness might give them some character?

High crown

This one more "looks good in terms of stats", my eyes actually tell me it's not so nice to look at...
Pros:

• AFAICS a very high crown?
• 62% table is fairly low
• Can see reflection of a serial number in the centre. If that's the camera that could be good? Direct reflection of light from over the table?

Cons:

• A lot of leakage. Not much "dancing".
• Smaller (both ct, and face-up size)
• Squares a bit wonky / not perfectly concentric

 

[Dreamer_D]

Of the ones you have posted your “top contender” looks nice. Diamonds do look different in person than photos and video … binocular vision changes perception a fair bit, as does varied lighting. Given that I think the last one has potential. Very hard to compare across different images with different camera and lighting. Would be easier to judge with theme in a single image. This is why for fancies I might lean towards paying the premium to purchase from a company that offers a little more service and has th stones in house. Then they can offer their expert opinion of the best choice and show you video comparing two diamonds side by side.

 

[mayaINaU]

Of the ones you have posted your “top contender” looks nice. Diamonds do look different in person than photos and video … binocular vision changes perception a fair bit, as does varied lighting. Given that I think the last one has potential. Very hard to compare across different images with different camera and lighting. Would be easier to judge with theme in a single image. This is why for fancies I might lean towards paying the premium to purchase from a company that offers a little more service and has th stones in house. Then they can offer their expert opinion of the best choice and show you video comparing two diamonds side by side.

I agree with that, given your budget.

 

[briggysmalls]

Thanks again for everyone’s input. I took a bit of a break over Christmas. But I’ve continued thinking about everyone’s advice here.

Of the ones you have posted your “top contender” looks nice. Diamonds do look different in person than photos and video … binocular vision changes perception a fair bit, as does varied lighting. Given that I think the last one has potential. Very hard to compare across different images with different camera and lighting. Would be easier to judge with theme in a single image. This is why for fancies I might lean towards paying the premium to purchase from a company that offers a little more service and has th stones in house. Then they can offer their expert opinion of the best choice and show you video comparing two diamonds side by side.

Well this sounds eminently sensible! I hadn’t previously appreciated that the fancy cut of an Asscher makes purchasing online harder than with e.g. brilliant cuts.

Off the back of your suggestion I did look around for recommended vendors here in the UK with decent selection. I came up with: Diamond House and Taylor and Hart.

I have to confess. Having become used to prices online, I’ve found the B&M + UK premium a bit off putting.

I think I’m going to take a punt on an online purchase. Use a handheld ASET, inspect it myself, and return if it’s disappointing.

Should I end up returning it I will then take my ASET to the B&M shops mentioned above and “do it properly”.

So! The purchase!

It seems the best option is that first diamond I found: Top contender. So I think I’ll go for that.

That being said, I wonder what folks think of this smaller diamond at WhiteFlash: Smaller contender. I think it’s a lovely shape (octagonal), big windmills with nice light patterns and a really small table. Although the centre is quite grey, so I guess less bright (tbd if that’s leakage or just low angle light). Also does it only have 3 pavilion facets? Would love to get an opinion on that one!

 

[tyty333]

Just FYI @briggysmalls ..."punting" on something in the US means you're going to pass on it/give up on it. I guess the UK "punt"
means you're going for it. Interesting (but confusing) .

 

[briggysmalls]

Just FYI @briggysmalls ..."punting" on something in the US means you're going to pass on it/give up on it. I guess the UK "punt"
means you're going for it. Interesting (but confusing) .

Oh wow! Haha, thanks for the clarification @tyty333 . Yes you’re totally right. I mean I’ll give it a go. I’m guessing it’s from football (soccer). I had no idea of the US meaning

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

I like the WhiteFlash stone but I'd ask about all the tiny white flecks in that VS1. You might get another video or some some good info from them. Their reputation for service is excellent.