Average vs Awesome Paraiba Tourmaline

[mimi72]

First off, "hi" to all the colored gemstone folks out there. I am an occasional lurker on Rocky Talky. About a year ago I became obsessed with tourmalines. I almost bought Widget's Mozambique in a Leon Mege setting, cut by Gene. Didn't, but regret it and now am consumed with finding a good one for my upcoming 40th bday...

I have been reading everything out there including the threads here about Paraiba. I understand color is everything, even over origin. I am still unsure, though, because I see stones online which don't look that different to me and with comparable origins/color quality, some selling for $1k per carat, some 10K+. Indeed, maybe it's the trustworthiness of the vendor that is the difference. Ugh.

The 4.07 ct stone below is coming to me for inspection. The jeweler is in OH and I'm not so it's being sent. It was sourced by the jeweler in the early 90s and sold to a client who favored tourmalines. When she passed away the store re-acquired the estate. A self-described GIA gemologist at the store said that this trillion stood out from the rest in terms of color and "glow", and customers frequently noticed it and asked what it was when it was in their store. It has an IGTA ID report and recent report from AGL showing origin Brazil, Paraiba, greenish-blue, no enhancements except the usual likely heat treatment. Unfortunately they did not get AGL to evaluate color/cut quality.

I would love any comments. The photos all look pretty different - green to blue color. Some dark spots so I wonder about too much extinction. Scroll down on the ebay listing and disregard the price - it was doubled when the AGL report came back. I inquired about the stone before the price increase, am paying about $5k per carat. I know it's tacky to talk price here but I need some feedback about that range for this stone. I'm driving myself crazy with all the research online, and on PS, and all it's gotten me is a low grade headache. Geez, could I do as well with a nice Topaz or ????

It's not the most desirable shape; I would have set into a pendant. I will have a low threshhold for sending back given the price...but just had to see it in person...I will post photos when the stone arrives. But they won't be professional so not sure I can capture it! Many thanks!

**removed at the request of the OP by moderator**

 

[T L]

For that amount of money, I would require an AGL Prestige color grade report. Vendors never get them because they often don't want consumers to know that their stone is less than "Excellent" in rating. It really upsets me, especially in lieu of the fact that they are selling something for so much. As for the stone, it's really difficult to tell from photos how glowy it is in person. If you never saw a high quality Brazilian paraiba in person, you really don't know, that's why it should have the color grading report.

 

[chrono]

The single picture posted shows a stone with a lot of potential if the colour is accurate. Sometimes, that screaming unrealistic colour as though radioactive can be very difficult to capture in a still picture. My guess is that the stone is tilted, so I cannot how much extinction or darkness the stone has. What I see could well be just shadowing. I'm glad the stone comes with a lab memo, but really, for such an expensive stone with such provenance, it should be the full Prestige report.

As for the shape, do not despair. It might take some creative thinking but trilliants can be set in a ring elegantly.

ETA
Just checked out the link and in some pictures, it is gorgeous but seemed lacking in a few others...Best to see it in person, as you mentioned and having the full AGL report will take a huge load off your mind.

 

[mimi72]

Thank you TL and Chrono, I hoped you would chime in.

Well heck. What to do....I guess I can ask the vendor to send back to AGL for the full report. Except I have already agreed to the purchase and paid (of course they have a 14 day return period). I hate to insist on the vendor getting the full report, and then I don't buy the stone, since again I am not sure I will keep due to the price, it has to be spectacularly spectacular.

Go ahead, call me an idiot now. I have never seen a true glowing PT in person, so I'll have nothing to compare it to when I see it. But there is a reputable gemstone dealer near me who I was going to have take a look at it. I'm thinking this is all too risky. Maybe I should call off the whole thing now. Bleh.

 

[T L]

Thank you TL and Chrono, I hoped you would chime in.

Well heck. What to do....I guess I can ask the vendor to send back to AGL for the full report. Except I have already agreed to the purchase and paid (of course they have a 14 day return period). I hate to insist on the vendor getting the full report, and then I don't buy the stone, since again I am not sure I will keep due to the price, it has to be spectacularly spectacular.

Go ahead, call me an idiot now. I have never seen a true glowing PT in person, so I'll have nothing to compare it to when I see it. But there is a reputable gemstone dealer near me who I was going to have take a look at it. I'm thinking this is all too risky. Maybe I should call off the whole thing now. Bleh.

If they don't send it out to AGL for a full grading report, I would call the whole thing off, unless you have lots of money to burn. You see, I know that paraiba photos can also be doctored or photographed in such a way that they appear more saturated in a photo than IRL. I would be really leary. It could have a grey mask that you cannot easily see in the photos as well. Also Brazilian origin does not guarantee top color either. Often times sellers capitalize on the origin to jack up the prices.

You should never ever buy a fine paraiba without seeing a top notch one in person or without an AGL color grading report IMHO. They all look glowy if you never saw the fine ones. Widget's stone also came from Mozambique, and while glowy and beautiful, the Brazilian ones from the original mine, in top quality, are just radioactive looking. There's nothing quite like them.

 

[mimi72]

I just called AGL and it's a lousy $138 to have them upgrade to the full report. I have a call out to the seller to tell him I need this or the deal's off. I would think he would need this to sell the stone to anyone.

What do I need to see on the full report to justify the price? Excellent everything? Do they grade the "glow"?

Muchas gracias, TL. No money to burn here.

 

[chrono]

I would have done what you just did for this particular tourmaline; no AGL full report, no deal. To justify the price, the colour grading has to be at least very good to excellent. The "glow" comes from the superb saturation (and a complex mixture of just the right minerals which has yet to be fully identified) and will be factored in when AGL gives their opinion on the colour grading.

 

[T L]

I just called AGL and it's a lousy $138 to have them upgrade to the full report. I have a call out to the seller to tell him I need this or the deal's off. I would think he would need this to sell the stone to anyone.

What do I need to see on the full report to justify the price? Excellent everything? Do they grade the "glow"?

Muchas gracias, TL. No money to burn here.

And the stone should have an overall grading of "very good to excellent," or "excellent," not just "very good." I don't care about the cut as much, but the clarity should be decent. The most important thing is the saturation level, as that is what gives these stones much of their value. I wouldn't accept less than a 1,2 or 3 on their color scan scale, with 1 being the best.

http://www.aglgemlab.com/Services/Prestige.aspx

ETA: LOL Chrono, we posted basically the same information at the same time.

 

[T L]

I just called AGL and it's a lousy $138 to have them upgrade to the full report. I have a call out to the seller to tell him I need this or the deal's off. I would think he would need this to sell the stone to anyone.

What do I need to see on the full report to justify the price? Excellent everything? Do they grade the "glow"?

Muchas gracias, TL. No money to burn here.

He wouldn't with an uninformed seller. Fortunately, you came to Pricescope and asked questions.

 

[mimi72]

Spoke with the seller. He is not familiar with the full report and doesn't understand how they would grade color anyway on a stone like this. Verbatim comment. As far as he is concerned he does not need the color report b/c he's seen "lots" of PTs and this one has superb color. He does not want to spend the extra $ sending it back but is willing to let me send it to them if it takes a reasonable amount of time for them to grade. He says he feels like he's "giving it away" and could get 10k more for it, doesn't need the full report.

Don't know what to think. Part of me says call it off. Part says get it, see it in person, have a local gemstone guy look at it and think about the full AGL report. I could still get my $ back after that. Then I wouldn't always wonder. On the other hand it's a lot of hassle all that sending and insurance $ etc. Headache coming back.

 

[T L]

Spoke with the seller. He is not familiar with the full report and doesn't understand how they would grade color anyway on a stone like this. Verbatim comment. As far as he is concerned he does not need the color report b/c he's seen "lots" of PTs and this one has superb color. He does not want to spend the extra $ sending it back but is willing to let me send it to them if it takes a reasonable amount of time for them to grade. He says he feels like he's "giving it away" and could get 10k more for it, doesn't need the full report.

Don't know what to think. Part of me says call it off. Part says get it, see it in person, have a local gemstone guy look at it and think about the full AGL report. I could still get my $ back after that. Then I wouldn't always wonder. On the other hand it's a lot of hassle all that sending and insurance $ etc. Headache coming back.

Call it off, he doesn't sound professional, and he doesn't want to deal with the AGL prestige report. Also, any local gemstone guy could look at it, and still think it's great. Your average jeweler doesn't know the quality of a truly fine paraiba.

You're taking a huge risk without the full prestige report, and any honest and professional seller would accomodate that. It's too risky to buy something like that, for that much $$, from someone that doesn't want to take a risk. Let's put it this way, if it WERE truly a fine stone, that seller would have a top of the line prestige report with it. A lot of dealers can make a quick buck by waving around a report, an origin, and nothing else to back up the quality of the stone. A four carat cuprian tourmaline can sell anywhere from $2K to $100K. For a sale like that, I would want the seller to assume the risk and send it to AGL themselves. You shouldn't have to, and if it takes too long to get back, well, then you're possibly out of luck on your return period.

If he thinks he could get $10K more for it, then way doesn't he???

 

[mimi72]

Struggling...I see the red flags being pointed out, I do. Still reluctant to call it off. Guess I have to because...what you are saying is...unless I have the full AGL report, even if it looks good to me and a local mineral gemologist (I'm in St Louis, a decent sized market), I will still never know if it was really worth that much $$$ without the full report. It's all Russian Roulette, isn't it?

**Sigh**

I still want to see it.

Oh Widget, where are you? Did you ever sell your ring?

 

[T L]

Struggling...I see the red flags being pointed out, I do. Still reluctant to call it off. Guess I have to because...what you are saying is...unless I have the full AGL report, even if it looks good to me and a local mineral gemologist (I'm in St Louis, a decent sized market), I will still never know if it was really worth that much $$$ without the full report. It's all Russian Roulette, isn't it?

**Sigh**

I still want to see it.

Oh Widget, where are you? Did you ever sell your ring?

What gets me is that I checked out their website, and they're supposed "trusted jewelers since 1897" but they don't know what an AGL grading report is????

I am not a millionaire, but if I were, I would not buy expensive gems from any jeweler if they did not give me the ability to send them out for that report. It's your money though.

Secondly, I do not trust those photos. The white balance appears to be off which would give the stone more of saturated look, and also, IMHO, those shots with the "sparkles" show the appearance of a glow. There is no way to see the actual glow of a paraiba in a static photo, you need to see one in person. I have several Mozambique stones, and I have seen neon Brazilian material in person. You are not getting the deal of the century on this stone, so why don't you frequent a gem show to see what these stones look like in person? Sometimes they're available. While I do love neon Brazilian tourmaline, you have to remember that tourmaline is also a very soft stone and easily chips. I know that they command a premium price, but I do think they should be more durable for those prices. I personally wouldn't spend as much money as these sellers are asking, even if I had a billion dollars. However, that's just me.

It's just too huge a risk to take IMHO, unless they have a rock solid return policy, and most B&M stores are unwilling to do returns after a certain period of time.

FYI: Last I heard, the best paraibas are sold to the Japanese. I saw some videos of some nice ones on youtube, I'll see if I can look them up. They were Japanese videos.

I like this video because although they probably look more glowy in person, you get the idea, and I don't think special lighting is used here, look at the tiny stones in particular. Your trillion shows more green and more grey.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emKmDV1p1K4&feature=related

another video of a more included stone showing off its glow, but against the grey background, that helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emKmDV1p1K4&feature=related

 

[mimi72]

TL, just to be clear, you saw in my post that the price is $20.5k, not the ridiculous price on the ebay listing right? And he will let me send it to AGL, and be flexible with the 14 day return period if I do, he's just not willing to send it himself. Thx for the info and videos!

 

[mimi72]

TL, seems like they link to the same video, but I get the idea. I hate to say it but even those stones don't look amazingly outstanding to me. I think I give up. Except for like you said...try to see a real one in person.

 

[T L]

TL, just to be clear, you saw in my post that the price is $20.5k, not the ridiculous price on the ebay listing right? And he will let me send it to AGL, and be flexible with the 14 day return period if I do, he's just not willing to send it himself. Thx for the info and videos!

No, I did not see the $20.5K, which is around $5K/ct. Well, I just would rather not assume the risk myself sending it to AGL. If it's $20.5K, then I would want a "very good" on the report for the color scan, but just know that the prices on these mid range paraibas can vary quite a bit. I also think that if you're not in a good position to judge what a glowy stone looks like, you can be easily had. I used to think greyish blue tourmalines were glowy until I got a better eye for color, and saw some fine paraiba material in person. Be careful, but it sounds like your mind is set. I just wanted to make sure you knew all the possible risks. Good luck.

 

[mimi72]

MInd's not set, I want to put the kabosh on it, really I do. One more question, when you say "assume the risk of sending to the AGL yourself" what risk do you mean? That it gets lost in the mail, or it doesn't come back with the grading you'd want?

 

[T L]

MInd's not set, I want to put the kabosh on it, really I do. One more question, when you say "assume the risk of sending to the AGL yourself" what risk do you mean? That it gets lost in the mail, or it doesn't come back with the grading you'd want?

THat, and also if the stone has been damaged, the seller can make you take responsibility.

 

[Barrett]

Great info provided, TL!!!

 

[mimi72]

I just killed it. Seller was fine with me not taking it because again, he feels like he can get more. What a gut wrenching day. I'm exhausted.

 

[chrono]

Ditto on damage in transit or wherever else. It becomes hairy in trying to then negotiate the refund price!

 

[minousbijoux]

For What its Worth, The Guide of course doesn't even list 4 ct paraibas as they are just not available. That said, the most recent prices for 2 - 2.99 ct Brazilian Paraiba are listed as $15K - $23K/ct for Extra Fine; $7k - $15K for Fine; and $2K - $7K for Good. The trick was in figuring out what category this stone fell into...

 

[LD]

I've just got in from work and seen this thread. I'm very pleased that you've halted the transactions for all the warning bells above but not only that, the first photo shows some promise but it's not THE top colour (if the photo's accurate). The other warning sign that I don't think has been commented on is the seller's photos. They've been taken to make the stone look like it has a neon glow and the lighting looks quite selective. It's a nice stone but it's not the best. If it were, for 4ct with Brazilian provenance, it would possibly sell for much more. Also, and you said this yourself, the shape is not the most desirable cut.

Unfortunately as you already know, you're looking for a Paraiba at a time when the market is incredibly limited. Wait for the right one to come along - I'm sure it will. Perhaps email Gene as I'm sure he can contact Widget to see if her ring has sold?

One other thing that I can't stress enough ............ if you get an opportunity you MUST see a number of Paraibas in real life. I can't tell you how many people tell me they have a top colour with the neon glow when they have a stone that is very far removed from that. Unless you've seen a number it's very difficult to see what top colour is. My rule of thumb is that if it looks false then it's probably a good one!

 

[Lula]

Struggling...I see the red flags being pointed out, I do. Still reluctant to call it off. Guess I have to because...what you are saying is...unless I have the full AGL report, even if it looks good to me and a local mineral gemologist (I'm in St Louis, a decent sized market), I will still never know if it was really worth that much $$$ without the full report. It's all Russian Roulette, isn't it?

**Sigh**

I still want to see it.

Oh Widget, where are you? Did you ever sell your ring?

I like this video because although they probably look more glowy in person, you get the idea, and I don't think special lighting is used here, look at the tiny stones in particular. Your trillion shows more green and more grey.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emKmDV1p1K4&feature=related

another video of a more included stone showing off its glow, but against the grey background, that helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emKmDV1p1K4&feature=related

OMG. Thank you for posting those videos. Amazing stones.

mimi, I think you were wise to cancel the transaction. Too many red flags.

 

[Barrett]

Here is a video I use often that TL first brought to light for me...it glows so much you can't even see the facets sometimes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZd-0nL8WYg

 

[mimi72]

LD, regarding the color, I agree the color in the first photo is too green, but did you see the photo in the AGL report? Much more blue.

I have no doubt it's a Paraiba, from Brazil, the question is the color grade.

I did get Widget's email address from Gene and sent an email, but she didn't respond.

I think this would have probably been a nice stone, but how nice is the question, and worth the price or not. For a novice buyer, too risky I guess. I wish the seller had been willing to get the full AGL report himself. But again, he was happy to cancel the transaction as he wanted to raise the price anyway. But, as they say, it's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

Hope i didn't miss out on a good one...

 

[Pandora II]

Just wanted to comment on the report here...

A lot of dealers I have worked with have the option of sending a stone out for a grading report - but the report will be at your expense UNLESS it comes back stating something different from the vendor's description.

For example if a report on an unheated sapphire comes back saying that the stone is heated then the vendor will bear the cost of the report whether or not you buy the stone.

Generally the stone should go from the vendor to the lab and back again - this avoids any scenarios about lost stones/chipped stones/switched stones etc.

Most dealers just can't afford to get reports on all their stock - especially as they're not asked for them that often.

OTOH, I find it a bit odd that the vendor hasn't got a couple of reports done on a stone of this price.

Not a paraiba-maven I'm afraid so will leave the appraising of the stone to others!

 

[T L]

Just wanted to comment on the report here...

A lot of dealers I have worked with have the option of sending a stone out for a grading report - but the report will be at your expense UNLESS it comes back stating something different from the vendor's description.

For example if a report on an unheated sapphire comes back saying that the stone is heated then the vendor will bear the cost of the report whether or not you buy the stone.

Generally the stone should go from the vendor to the lab and back again - this avoids any scenarios about lost stones/chipped stones/switched stones etc.

Most dealers just can't afford to get reports on all their stock - especially as they're not asked for them that often.

OTOH, I find it a bit odd that the vendor hasn't got a couple of reports done on a stone of this price.

Not a paraiba-maven I'm afraid so will leave the appraising of the stone to others!

Most definitely, but if a customer requests it, and agrees to pay for it, then the seller should send it off, in particular if it is a very expensive and rare stone.

 

[mimi72]

I did not offer to pay for the report. It's only an an additional $138 plus shipping. Would it be worth trying?

 

[usnwife]

The seller sounds really shady. Why wouldn't he pay a $138 for a $20k stone; unless he knows the stone isn't worth $20k. If he could ask for more, he would.