Baby sleep training

[Dreamer_D]

I probably shouldn't say that his night sleep is so perfect because its been pretty messed up since we got back to the UK and for the last 3 nights he's only been doing 3.5 hours for the first stretch which is supposed to be the long one. But at least he still goes down without a fuss at nights...

My babies woke very 3-4 hours at night until we did CIO at 8 months. Its totally normal. I just sucked it up knowing it was for a finite period. With our older son we worried a lot about "fixing" sleep like most first time parents. With our second we rolled with it a lot more, and in the end, they were both STTN at the same time, and life went on!

 

[mayerling]

Dreamer, thanks for your posts. They actually made me feel a lot better. It's encouraging to know that just because N has a difficult habit right now, it's never too late to change it. It actually makes a lot of sense to wait until he's a bit older to try to train him as we're going to the west coast of the US in a couple of months and he's sleep is bound to go out of whack because of the time difference.

 

[pavelover]

Ah Mayerling you are getting such great advice here! I am so going to reference this when the time comes. I always felt like I was the extreme of using bad habits to sleep but really maybe I just did what I had to do for us all to get some sleep .
I totally agree that travel will mess things up for a bit. No matter what I was doing at the time (cio) or whatever I always allowed leeway for when we traveled to give my guy time to re adjust. And when I took a 13 hour flight when my son was almost two and I had weaned from breast feeding , you better believe I started breastfeeding him on the plane again to get some peace and quiet, lol. It worked and I ended up breast feeding him for about 6 more months.
Keep up the good work and sorry about all my tangents I went off on in your thread...

 

[pancake]

Mayer, think it definitely makes sense to hold off making any major changes until you're going to be in the one spot for at least a couple of weeks. Re moving from the UK, I think it's hard to tell what has thrown N out - it's probably a combination of the move, change in environment, and just the natural ongoing changes that happen so rapidly in the first few months (probably a lot of the latter actually!).

In terms of optimal timing, I think you just choose the time that's best for you. Every baby is different. 4 months is sometimes a "bad time" because many babies go through a fussy phase/wonder week/sleep regression/whatever you want to call it at that time. But if you want to do it at 4 months and it seems like a good time for you - do it!

Wanted to add - I know quite a few friends who did what Dreamer did, and did a "sleep training week" of CIO or modified CIO around 7-8 months. It worked well for them. I know that it definitely gets harder towards the end of the first year or beyond, so I probably wouldn't leave it much longer than that. We are very lucky to have a chill baby who sorted out her own sleep, but DH and I had discussed when we would wean the night feed (if it persisted) and we had decided that we'd do some form of training at 6 months if it hadn't happened by then.

 

[mayerling]

Thanks for the replies Pave and Pancake. I should clarify that we're only going to the US for a couple of weeks and not until December.

 

[mayerling]

Dreamer, did you do CIO fir naps as well?

 

[Skippy123]

Dreamer, did you do CIO fir naps as well?

I am not dreamer but,
I cried it out for some naps (like a few mins) because I knew they were beyond exhausted and then before I knew it they were asleep. I think if they have been active about 2 hours they need a nap if they are still pretty young but it has been about a year and 3 mos since they were really tiny 3 mo range. I would try hard to get them to nap before all the crying and fussing; it didn't always work though. I use to do lots of swaddling and rocking back in the day.

 

[sugarpie honeybun]

Personally, I would never use CIO method on a baby younger than 6 months. But when we do start using it, we will be consistent and routine with our approach (as we did with our ODS). It was very hard. EXTREMELY hard in the beginning - to the point I had to wear my iPod earphones to drown out some of the noise while he cried. I felt terrible, but night after night, the crying lessened and eventually he understood that we meant business when it came to bedtime.

These great sleeping habits lasted until he was about 2.5 years old, and then everything hit the fan from there...

He's now a Master Negotiator quasi Used Car Salesman and can connive his way out of going to bed pretty much every night. It's a constant battle that I hope ends soon. If it's not the "person in his closet", he has to "go poop reeeeally bad and needs the potty"., which we eventually realize is not the case.

sigh

Good luck!!

 

[mayerling]

I'm beginning to think that even CIO wouldn't work.i tried some CC the other day and he basically cried the whole time (over a hour) with no ability to self-soothe. I went to a sleep clinic offered by the children's services today. They said he should be getting 5 hours in the daytime. I said he gets next to nothing. They gave me a bunch of suggestions, all of which I've already tried. Then they said there's no other advice they can offer me.

 

[mayerling]

I'm beginning to think that even CIO wouldn't work.i tried some CC the other day and he basically cried the whole time (over a hour) with no ability to self-soothe. I went to a sleep clinic offered by the children's services today. They said he should be getting 5 hours in the daytime. I said he gets next to nothing. They gave me a bunch of suggestions, all of which I've already tried. Then they said there's no other advice they can offer me.

 

[megumic]

I'm beginning to think that even CIO wouldn't work.i tried some CC the other day and he basically cried the whole time (over a hour) with no ability to self-soothe. I went to a sleep clinic offered by the children's services today. They said he should be getting 5 hours in the daytime. I said he gets next to nothing. They gave me a bunch of suggestions, all of which I've already tried. Then they said there's no other advice they can offer me.

mayer, I'm with you. C gets next to nothing during the day and he is 8 weeks. I try everything. He will sometimes sleep in his swing, but he mostly stares into space. I just nursed him to sleep, put him down, he slept 5 mins, and now is up and whining, not really crying, on the monitor. I give up.

 

[mayerling]

I'm beginning to think that even CIO wouldn't work.i tried some CC the other day and he basically cried the whole time (over a hour) with no ability to self-soothe. I went to a sleep clinic offered by the children's services today. They said he should be getting 5 hours in the daytime. I said he gets next to nothing. They gave me a bunch of suggestions, all of which I've already tried. Then they said there's no other advice they can offer me.

mayer, I'm with you. C gets next to nothing during the day and he is 8 weeks. I try everything. He will sometimes sleep in his swing, but he mostly stares into space. I just nursed him to sleep, put him down, he slept 5 mins, and now is up and whining, not really crying, on the monitor. I give up.

Am I a terrible person for feeling kind of glad that somebody else understands what I'm going through?

Meg, if he'll go to sleep on his own in the swing, even if it for 5 mins, you're one step ahead of me. Mine has to be rocked to sleep. ALWAYS.

 

[megumic]

No, you are not alone and not a terrible person for being glad that someone else's kid won't sleep! The worst part is, I actually feel bad b/c he is just exhausted but just won't sleep like a "normal baby". Even at our most recent drs appt, the dr asked how much he slept during the day and I said maybe 2 hours at most and the dr looked at me like I was crazy/lying. Am I doing something wrong? Is something making him not sleep? Is there caffeine in the breast milk and/or formula I give him? Does he have early onset ADHD or something of the sort? I know it sounds funny, but I'm not joking -- these are the things crossing my mind.

 

[mayerling]

I have the same concerns. Oh, and if he got 2 hours he's still ahead of my kid. Also, yours sleeps really well at night.

 

[choro72]

Mine will be 4 months next Monday, and still does not sleep away from me for more than 10 minutes. I noticed he has clingy issues the day he was born. Everyone I know post their newborn in the hospital crib asleep. My baby screamed in the crib during the entire hospital stay. He was asleep ONLY when he was on my chest.
I have decided not to stress about it, said goodbye to my sleep, and enjoy that he's a needy boy for now. Eventually I'll be lucky if he lets me touch him. Don't get me wrong. A lot of times I just want to bash my head on the kitchen counter.

 

[mayerling]

Mine will be 4 months next Monday, and still does not sleep away from me for more than 10 minutes. I noticed he has clingy issues the day he was born. Everyone I know post their newborn in the hospital crib asleep. My baby screamed in the crib during the entire hospital stay. He was asleep ONLY when he was on my chest.
I have decided not to stress about it, said goodbye to my sleep, and enjoy that he's a needy boy for now. Eventually I'll be lucky if he lets me touch him. Don't get me wrong. A lot of times I just want to bash my head on the kitchen counter.

To be honest, my issue is not my sleep - it's his sleep. I feel so bad seeing him so tired all the time. He's scratched his face so badly from constantly rubbing his eyes. And it's not like he sleeps on me either - 20 mins here 20 mins there.

 

[amc80]

Wow, so sorry all of you are going through this. You make my sleep issues sound like nothing. I can't imagine what you all are going through

 

[Dreamer_D]

Hunter napped well but Ryder did not. I would nurse him until he was FAST asleep, and then transfer him very carefully into his bed. Or DH would rock him to sleep. for a while, only DH could get him to sleep! Otherwise, I would take him for rides in the car at naptime and park with a book to read while he napped Or I would put him in the carrier, or stroller, and walk while he napped.

So when I say "do what works" I literally mean it. I did what needed to be done to get him sleep, even if it meant sitting on the couch and watching TV while he nursed and slept.

When he was older and doing two naps per day I would drive or walk for one and rock or nurse him to sleep for the other. Ryder was just a baby where things took longer. He also took forever to put down at night. Like, 45 to an hour of rocking or nursing and trying to transfer him. At 8 months I used CIO to night wean him, and it took about 3-4 days of intermittent waking and fussing for that to work, but I stuckto my guns and he slept from 7pm to 5am from 8mo to 12mo, when he FINALLY stopped waking at 5am -- I just could not extinguish that waking so would nurse him and put him back down, or bring him in bed with us and nurse him, or jus twake up with him some mornings (that sucked).

But getting him to fall alsleep was still hard. We tried CIO at bedtime or naps a few times but he would just cry for an hour. So we just did what worked again! He started daycare at 10 months. At 12 months we were complaining about how we have to rock him for an hour to get him to bed at night. Ands naps were still hard and we drove around. They told us they just put him in bed and he falls asleep! So then we knew he COULD do it. And so we just gave him milk and put him in bed. He cried for 10 minutes and went to sleep He protested a little off and on for a few nights, and then it stopped.

Now at 15 months he sleeps at night from 6:30 to 7am. We just put him in his bed for night time and he falls alseep without any fuss. At nap time, I give him a hug and put him in bed and he goes to sleep.

Sleep issues come and go. Our older son went through a really bad phase when we transitioned from a crib to a bed and it was about a year of tough times, from 2.5 to 3.5. We also got rid of his pacifiers in that period. For a long time he would only fall asleep with one of us laying in bed with him! Then we said, We will sit on your bed! Then we brought a chair in and sat by his bed. Then we moved the chair to the corner of the room. Then we left the room That process took about 6mo because we were scared to mess with things when they were working ok. But again, he now sleeps 11 hours per night, and at bedtime we tuck him in and kiss him and leave the room. Voila! Changed a bad habit.

So my point is: You can create good sleep habits at any time. Just do what works and keep on trying, and eventually it will work out. And if it is hard, which it will be periodically for ever (haha), well, things will change soon!

 

[Dreamer_D]

No, you are not alone and not a terrible person for being glad that someone else's kid won't sleep! The worst part is, I actually feel bad b/c he is just exhausted but just won't sleep like a "normal baby". Even at our most recent drs appt, the dr asked how much he slept during the day and I said maybe 2 hours at most and the dr looked at me like I was crazy/lying. Am I doing something wrong? Is something making him not sleep? Is there caffeine in the breast milk and/or formula I give him? Does he have early onset ADHD or something of the sort? I know it sounds funny, but I'm not joking -- these are the things crossing my mind.

Are you willing to try baby wearing? Have you tried it? Will he sleep in a carrier like an Ergo? Many babies who will not sleep on their own will sleep in a carrier. Yes, that is a big investment as a parent. But it can work. I know lots of babies that would only sleep when "worn" or when out for a walk in a stoller -- mine included! It will pass in a few months, and its normal Actually, my second son would only sleep on my chest or snugged up beside me at night in bed for about 4 mohnths too. No, that is not recommend by doctors. Yes, many parents do it anyeways because it works and babies feel safe and secure that way.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Mine will be 4 months next Monday, and still does not sleep away from me for more than 10 minutes. I noticed he has clingy issues the day he was born. Everyone I know post their newborn in the hospital crib asleep. My baby screamed in the crib during the entire hospital stay. He was asleep ONLY when he was on my chest.
I have decided not to stress about it, said goodbye to my sleep, and enjoy that he's a needy boy for now. Eventually I'll be lucky if he lets me touch him. Don't get me wrong. A lot of times I just want to bash my head on the kitchen counter.

As I just said, mine was like that too, my second son, the first 4 months roughly? I slowly got him off my chest at night and just kept trying to put him down, tightly swaddled. Eventually he would sleep for a could hours in his cot beside me, but then spent the latter half of the night on me. I moved to side laying and side nursing when he was a little older. At about 4 months, I just said "no more!" I moved my big cushy comfy chair into my room, and just refused to bring him in bed with me -- I got up to nurse him, swaddled, and basically just kept on trying to transfer him to his cot -- nurse, try transfer, nurse, try transfer. I would fall asleep a little sometimes in the chair with the baby on his boppy. Eventually, I transfered him and he just stayed asleep in the cot. He was so tired! I think it took about 4 hours the first night? Its a blurr. Then less and less time. Basically, I was at the poitn of wanting to run away -- the kitchen counter head banging did not work anymore So I was willing to try anything. Once I committed, the transition happened. But its a few long and tiring and repetitive nights.

Oh, and its not a "clingy Issue", its just a normal type of personality. My clingy baby is a lovely snuggle bug now at 15 months, coming for hugs all the time. My other son was never like that, and slept in his own bed at 4 weeks. Just different personalities, no better or worse.

 

[megumic]

Thanks for the suggestions and ideas. Yes, he will sleep in the Beco and the sling when I wear him and he'll nap well. He also naps in the car and on walks -- seems there is a pattern -- the boy likes to move! Usually I don't mind, but it is impossible to get anything done otherwise. Will try to make an effort to get him in a better nap routine as he just gets too tired!

Here is a link I found today with a chart on how much baby should be sleeping during the day/for naps: http://www.troublesometots.com/are-you-keeping-baby-awake-too-long/ -- hope some others find it helpful!

 

[mayerling]

Meg, you're still ahead of me. Even in cars or strollers he'll only nap for 20 mins. So parking and reading a book is out of the question given how even when the car is in motion he doesn't stay asleep.

 

[pavelover]

Meg and Mayerling and all
Waaaaay back when my son was young, I think there ws a bunch of talk about this- mostly I remember reading about EASY here. If you already are doing this, ignore me . Do you think the babies are staying up too long before you try to put them down? And I have mentioned before I did whatever worked and for me it was the swing or bouncer and lots of shushing. It took forever and I don't look forward to doing it again. I send you all big hugs because it's no fun at all. My son has had some really good periods of sleeping on his own all night but at 3 yrs 9 mo he is still askin(i mean again) cause he did really well for a while-to come in my bed every night. I'm going away soon to the U.S. and I know he will end up being in my bed the whole trip so I feel like its not worth it to fight it right now since it's just going to start again. I wish you good luck. Oh let me know if you don't know what EASY is.

 

[mayerling]

Pave, I've tried putting him down after an hour, after an hour and a half, after 2 hours...nothing works.

 

[MuffDog]

Mayer this sounds awful. I'm so sorry you are going through this.

Have you thought about getting the help of a sleep doula/sleep consultant? Not sure if it is in the budget for you but it may help having someone with experience helping you out?

Can you give us a rundown of your day/night including what you are doing before each attempt at a nap? Maybe someone can pinpoint an issue.

If it makes you feel any better, Luca has kind of fallen off the nap wagon and it is tough.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Thanks for the suggestions and ideas. Yes, he will sleep in the Beco and the sling when I wear him and he'll nap well. He also naps in the car and on walks -- seems there is a pattern -- the boy likes to move! Usually I don't mind, but it is impossible to get anything done otherwise. Will try to make an effort to get him in a better nap routine as he just gets too tired!

Here is a link I found today with a chart on how much baby should be sleeping during the day/for naps: http://www.troublesometots.com/are-you-keeping-baby-awake-too-long/ -- hope some others find it helpful!

Yes, its impossible to get anything done. But here is the thing -- if you make the sacrifice and walk/wear/drive for naps, your baby will get into a circadian rhythm that will eventually make it easier to get him down for naps in other ways too! So if its humanly possible, my suggestion is to do the things that need to be done to get the kid to nap. He needs to get used to sleeping, and then when he is in a fairly consistent pattern of naps -- like, a 2 hour or three hour cycle of sleep, wake eat/play, then start again with sleep -- he is more likely to sleep in other ways too.

 

[mayerling]

Muff, he wakes up for the day around 9. If he wakes up before 8:30 we put him down again - the reason is that he goes down easily at night so I try to 'maximise' his nights. He feeds and has some play time. Then I try to put him to sleep.

I have tried to do this at the 1-hour mark, the 1.5-hour mark, and the 2-hour mark. I have tried a naptime routine where I change his diaper, put on the blackout blind, and swaddle him. I have tried to put him down as soon as he falls asleep - he either wakes up straight away or after 20 mins. I have tried to put him down past the 20-min mark; he just wakes up or goes for another 20 mins. I have tried to drive him - 20 mins. I have tried the stroller - 20 mins. I have tried the swing and the cruiser (this is after I first put him to sleep as they do not put him to sleep) - 20 mins. I have tried my arms - 20 mins. This is the routine during the day - wake, feed, play, attempt at sleep.

Around 6:30pm we start his bedtime routine: play, bath, nurse, rock, sleep - he's usually down by 8. His MOTN feeds vary but there's definitely 2 because we push his wake-up time so far back (meaning the second MOTN feed is actually some time in the early morning - around 6:30).

I can't afford a sleep consultant and, to be honest, I'm not sure they'd work. The way I understand it is that they create some kind of nap/sleep plan but they can't actually get the kid to sleep if he won't do it.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Well, you are not the only mom I have met on PS or in real life who has a kid like that! Its hard, but its not unusual. Anscestrally such babies would have been worn in a sling and wake to nurse and back to sleep for 20 mins, wake to nurse, and back to sleep etc. Its hard as a parent, but please trust me when I say this stage will pass before you know it, and you will be misty eyed about how fast your babe grew up If he sleeps such short periods of time, then perhaps just put him down very often, after like a half hour awake, and let him get as much day sleep as he can. A 12 hours stretch at night (with feeds) is great for his age and about what my babes did too. As he gets older he might sleep longer stretches.

How is his demeanor otherwise? Id he eats well and seems content (ish) then personally, I'd try to roll with it and just work with his body rhythm and not stress about what he "should" do.

 

[pancake]

I've often heard it said that if a baby is a catnapper, then it's hard to "convert" them into longer stretch sleepers. One thing I would say is that 12-13 hours overnight is a LOT of sleep for a baby that age - remembering that most only need about 14-15 hours for the 24 hour period. The natural progression of sleep is usually that night-time sleep starts shorter and lengthens over the first 6 months or so, eventually getting to around about 12 hours/night. So N is probably getting a lot of his sleep needs met with his night-time sleep, and therefore the quality of his daytime sleep is not as good. This is not necessarily to say that you should shorten his night-time sleep (although some would), but just pointing out that he will only sleep a finite period per 24 hours.

Secondly, I would say is that 2 hours is a VERY long waketime for that age group and he is almost certainly overtired by that point.

Thirdly, I know you are trying lots of things, but are you trying any one thing on a consistent basis (apart from the routine when putting him down)? eg. when you change his waketime, are you doing it for a few days at a time?

In the meantime, I think DD's suggestion of wearing him is a great idea, if it's tolerable to you.

 

[mayerling]

I'll post in detail soon, but a quick note to say that just because he goes down at 8 and wakes at 9am doesn't mean he's getting 13 hours. MOTN feeds last about an hour and after the second one it takes a while to put him down so on a good night he gets about 10 hours.