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Bad "cloudy" or typical strong fluorescence?

M

Mags

Rough_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 24, 2018
Messages
40
Hi diamond lovers! I'm in the return period for my new diamond - 1.67 ct H SI1 GIA triple Ex. Here is its James Allen link in case you want to take a look: https://www.jamesallen.com/OrderDetails/?oID=1254876

So, to my concern. I LOVED the diamond when I opened the package - in many lights it sparkles wonderfully, and is a great color, clarity (inclusion-wise), and size for my taste. But! It has strong fluorescence. I wasn't worried about fluorescence when shopping, because the general online consensus seems to be that it doesn't matter much because it rarely causes haziness. And honestly I thought the effect was kind of cool, with the blue glow. But as my new diamond excitement subsides, I find myself stealing glances at the diamond in certain lights, as it looks cloudy... or, how I imagine a "cloudy" diamond to look. I don't have any other diamonds, cloudy or without fluorescence, to compare mine to, so I don't know if this is the troublesome "hazy" aspect of fluorescence that everyone is talking about, or just the fluorescent glow that some people enjoy.

I know that fluorescence is generally a matter of taste, and I enjoy my diamond in most lights - it's not the blue that bothers me; in fact I find the blue pretty and unique. It's what I perceive to be "cloudiness" that is beginning to nag on me. I know it should only matter what I think of it and not what others think, but I really want to know if what I'm seeing is just the typical strong fluorescence effect, or the actual oily/hazy issue that people talk about with strong fluorescence?

I have been searching for my diamond for a long time and I am fatigued of searching, and there is a lot I love about this one, so a big part of me wants to keep it. But, I want to be 100% certain I understand all aspects of my diamond now, before committing for life. Even if this is a bit hazy, it may be worth it to me to keep it given the excellent price for an H, eye clean, diamond of this size. I may not want to give up any other specs in order to lower the haziness, and increasing the budget isn't an option. But if there is something else out there that can get me to the same color and size within this budget, that will sparkle beautifully and *not* look cloudy, I'd like to know that. My diamond, but with faint or medium fluorescence, if you will. Alternatively, if this is how even the best fluorescent diamonds look, then knowing that would give me peace of mind.

I understand it's tough to see these subtle effects via photos, and I also plan to get an independent appraisal. In the meantime, I'd appreciate your thoughts on these pics! I'll post as many as I can. Thanks in advance, all.



IMG_0519.jpg IMG_0523.jpg IMG_0521.jpg IMG_0525.jpg IMG_0534.jpg
 
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How often do you deep clean it? When was the last time that you cleaned it?
 
I've only had it for a few days so I haven't cleaned it yet. I don't wear it to shower/sleep, just to work in an office. But I do wear it every day.
 
why don't you give it a good clean (dish soap + warm water + baby tooth brush), and then see how it looks?

Mine is a K, although I can see faint yellow, but looking into the diamond, it looks crystal clear, of course when it is clean.
 
Just my personal opinion, if you are not 100% satisfied with the diamond, the next upgrade will be 2x the cost with JA.
 
Do you have / could you order a UV light to test out your fluorescence?
 
Do you have a link to its original listing on JA? I’d love to know what the inclusions both grade setting and not are
 
Definitely give it a deep cleaning...it doesnt take long for a stone to get dirty. Is there somewhere you can take it to compare with
Ideal cut stones? There are no clouds on the report...looks like fluorescence is the only thing that might* be throwing it off. The
other option is to take it to an independent appraiser to see what they have to say. My thoughts are that if you are not happy with
it for any reason, then return it. You dont want to have that nagging feeling for the rest of your life (or until you upgrade).

https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers must be an independent appraiser
 
It doesn't look cloudy at all to me, expect for a bit in the 5th picture down in the second post. It looks like most diamonds look in photographs (check out the SMTB sub-forum to see what most diamonds look like in photos).

I can still see the facet reflections in the pictures, which look dull and almost invisible in diamonds that most on this site would definine as "cloudy."

But I would agree that looking at it next to other diamonds is probably going to be the only way to ease your mind on this purchase.
 
TreeScientist said:
It doesn't look cloudy at all to me, expect for a bit in the 5th picture down in the second post. It looks like most diamonds look in photographs (check out the SMTB sub-forum to see what most diamonds look like in photos).

I can still see the facet reflections in the pictures, which look dull and almost invisible in diamonds that most on this site would definine as "cloudy."

But I would agree that looking at it next to other diamonds is probably going to be the only way to ease your mind on this purchase.
Click to expand...

Thanks I'll do that. It's just so tricky to tell anything from pictures. At least, it is for me. I'm scouring for photos - sometimes my ring looks exactly like an ideal diamond photograph online, and sometimes I think it looks exactly like the undesirable fluoro diamond examples. It seems to be one of those things that you have to see in person to distinguish, or at least have more experience than I do and a more expert eye.

I went to a family-owned jewelry store yesterday hoping to compare with other diamonds, but I let it slip that I was still in my return period on my diamond and after that the jeweler was far from independent - he insisted the fluoro in my diamond was clearly causing a negative effect and proceeded to try and sell me on ordering another from him instead. And, the only real diamonds near my size he had in stock were "placeholder" moissonites. Anyway, given his bias I did not really want to stick around there. I'll try another place soon.
 
tyty333 said:
Definitely give it a deep cleaning...it doesnt take long for a stone to get dirty. Is there somewhere you can take it to compare with
Ideal cut stones? There are no clouds on the report...looks like fluorescence is the only thing that might* be throwing it off. The
other option is to take it to an independent appraiser to see what they have to say. My thoughts are that if you are not happy with
it for any reason, then return it. You dont want to have that nagging feeling for the rest of your life (or until you upgrade).

https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers must be an independent appraiser
Click to expand...

I will take it to an appraiser, thank you for the link! I don't want to have a lasting nagging feeling. But, diamonds specs are a zero sum game and I do have a budget. So, it seems I am going to have to accept some "flaws"/less desirable qualities, unless I want to go down in size which I really don't. I think if I can get peace of mind that this is a typical strong fluorescent diamond, I could reframe my perspective on it. And, I do genuinely like the blue tint.
 
It's so hard to tell with photos, but I'd suggest prepping the return. I have an ideal cut diamond that has a cloudiness to it and I just can't unsee it. Give it a really good cleaning, then head to the nearest real-diamond jeweler to compare your diamond to others. Do you have a T&C nearby? At least the sales associates are usually pretty nice to let you try on rings there
 
HappyNewLife said:
It's so hard to tell with photos, but I'd suggest prepping the return. I have an ideal cut diamond that has a cloudiness to it and I just can't unsee it. Give it a really good cleaning, then head to the nearest real-diamond jeweler to compare your diamond to others. Do you have a T&C nearby? At least the sales associates are usually pretty nice to let you try on rings there
Click to expand...

I do have a T&C nearby! Any suggestion for what to say? I'm thinking of upgrading maybe, and I want to compare to non-fluorescent stones? I feel self conscious of using an SA's time when I know there's no real chance of me buying.

Regarding cleaning, do you think the dish soap/soft tooth brush method would be sufficient for this test or should I get a pro cleaning? Maybe T&C would do it for me?
 
Driving to work today, the diamond looked so gorgeous and not even a little cloudy. I'd say it looks fantastic 95% of the time, and even when fluoro/hazy or whatever it is I'm seeing, it's does not look as bad as pics of actual cloudy stones. I'd really hate to return this only to discover that all fluoro diamonds give off this appearance that I'm seeing. Or, I'd find something else wrong with the *new* ring.
 
when I wanted to see what a 2 carat, 2.5 carat and 3 carat looked on my hand, fully knowing I was going to buy from Whiteflash, I said exactly that. I needed to try on different sizes to decide what to upgrade to. Try the rings on directly above your engagement ring and compare sparkle

I soak in dish soap (just regular dawn) + warm water, then more soap on the baby toothbrush and scrub away, rinse with warm water.
 
It looks pretty close to this in direct sunlight (this one is not mine):


And mine in direct sunlight:

IMG_0558 (1).jpg

And in my least favorite lighting - dim light bulb at home:

IMG_0538.jpg
 
I have a Whiteflash ACA and it can be a dud in certain lighting. I'd say it's awesome 95% of the time too.

Here's what mine looks like in direct sunlight
9B46DC93-40A8-49DE-A98D-F72AF7A6153F.jpeg
 
D1B82B4D-23E3-4EAC-A0DE-6698E00A9F97.jpeg0F90C0F2-5AA5-44FF-9138-F9F2B0E91782.jpeg

and a pic of my WF ACA (the bigger one) with the diamond that can look cloudy. Click on the pics to enlarge them so you can see what "clouds not shown" on the 1.7ct diamond looks like in the sun

(the roof above the diamonds is a brown color, which is why the diamonds look gross)
 
I think your stone looks pretty standard for a stone with fluor. You need to understand what is happening when a diamond fluoresces. There's a reaction going on in there that is absorbing ultraviolet light, lowering the energy of said light (electron donation) and bringing that light down in energy from the ultraviolet range to the higher intensities of the visible spectrum, resulting in the production of blue light. Any time wavelengths are absorbed, there's going to be a change in the way the diamond refracts light. But this is going to happen in pretty much EVERY diamond to a certain extent. Almost every diamond has different trace impurities or minor structural defects that absorb different wavelengths among the visible (diamonds with color) and infrared (diamonds that fluoresce) spectrums. The only diamonds that will not absorb any wavelengths whatsoever, and will thus completely refract and reflect back the light entering into it, are Type IIa diamonds: Extremely rare crystals that contain no impurities within the chemical structure whatsoever.

Outside of Type IIa diamonds, all stones will have "personalities," meaning they're going to react to different types of light (meaning light containing different proportions and intensities of the different wavelengths) differently. Fluorescent stones are going to create blue wavelengths under UV lights, and this absorption and production of new light intensities is going to make the stone slightly less transparent than normal. Same goes for diamonds with any traces of color. Yellow diamonds are yellow because they absorb blue light and lower its energy, transforming some of the blue light into yellow (lower energy) light. This absorption will also make colored stones appear slightly less transparent than a completely colorless (Type IIa diamond).

Moral of the story: If you want a stone with strong blue fluor, it is going to look like the stone you have now. If you want a stone with any color whatsoever, it's going to look slightly less transparent under certain lighting as well. Unless you buy a type IIa diamond (which hardly anyone outside of collectors own), every stone will look like this to a certain extent, because they're all absorbing light at different intensities along the spectrum and not letting the light pass through without some form of absorption.

I honestly don't think your stone falls into the category of "milky" fluorescent diamonds, but as I said, only by looking at a few other stones with SBF in sunlight alongside the diamond you have now will your mind be eased that your stone looks "normal" compared to these other fluorescent diamonds. But if the look isn't for you, then you could look for a diamond without (or with faint) fluorescence. But a lot of people love that fluorescent look and don't mind any slight reductions in transparency that come with it. :)
 
One thing I will say about the JA videos is that they don't use lighting in their studios with a high concentration of UV light, so you really can't tell from a JA video how fluorescence will affect a particular stone in the same way that you can sort of detect a "sleepy" stone caused by inclusions such as clouds and twinning wisps. It does need to be seen in person and taken into sunlight to find out. But I will say that, for what it's worth, the stone looks crystal clear in the video (so no clouds or anything). :)
 
Thank you both! Super interesting additional information to consider. The price of my diamond was a bit lower than comparable diamonds, so after the biased jeweler affirmed my fears re: fluorescence, I started googling like mad and found all kinds of info. about how fluorescence is bad and causes a negative look more often than some people think, which made me paranoid. It's definitely possible this is a beautiful standard strong fluorescent diamond. I'll clean it and take it to T&C, but as of now I'm leaning towards keeping.
 
HappyNewLife said:
D1B82B4D-23E3-4EAC-A0DE-6698E00A9F97.jpeg0F90C0F2-5AA5-44FF-9138-F9F2B0E91782.jpeg

and a pic of my WF ACA (the bigger one) with the diamond that can look cloudy. Click on the pics to enlarge them so you can see what "clouds not shown" on the 1.7ct diamond looks like in the sun

(the roof above the diamonds is a brown color, which is why the diamonds look gross)
Click to expand...

Just out of curiosity @HappyNewLife, what clarity grade is the "cloudy" stone in the picture? And is the clarity grade based on the clouds, or just listed as "clouds not shown?" It's interesting to me to see all these examples popping up recently of diamonds in the VS clarity range which have issues with clouds, like that crazy example of the VS1 where clouds weren't even the grade-setting inclusion on the report. I used to think that it was safe to recommend diamonds to people as long as they didn't state "Clarity grade based on clouds not shown" in the SI1 and below grades, but now I'm going to be hesitant to recommend any stones with "clouds not shown" to members on this site unless they're a vetted, in-house diamond that has been cleared of issues.
 
TreeScientist said:
Just out of curiosity @HappyNewLife, what clarity is the "cloudy" stone in the picture? And is the clarity grade based on the clouds, or just listed as "clouds not shown?" It's interesting to me to see all these examples popping up recently of diamonds in the VS clarity range which have issues with clouds, like that crazy example of the VS1 where clouds weren't even the grade-setting inclusion on the report. I used to think that it was safe to recommend diamonds to people as long as they didn't state "Clarity grade based on clouds not shown" in the SI1 and below grades, but now I'm going to be hesitant to recommend any stones with "clouds not shown" to members on this site unless they're a vetted, in-house diamond that has been cleared of issues.
Click to expand...

It's an eye-clean SI1 (G) that I had vetted with an ASET and idealscope. No amount of cleaning the diamond removes the clouds
 
HappyNewLife said:
It's an eye-clean SI1 (G) that I had vetted with an ASET and idealscope. No amount of cleaning the diamond removes the clouds
Click to expand...

Clarity grade based on the clouds?
 
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