Bad Diamond Buying Experience, need your advice on moving forward (very long)

[coconutpig]

Hi everyone. This is my first post, although I’ve been hanging around a couple months.

I have a sad story to tell, and I need some advice. Before I start, I want to be clear that I realize I made a huge mistake. I am so embarrassed, ashamed, mortified, humiliated, angry at myself - you name it.

I’m pretty scared to post this for that reason. I simply don’t need to be told that again, I’ll just beat myself up even more. You all seem like such a supportive and informative group, and in that spirit, I’m telling this story to ask for your advice on the next step forward to minimize the impact of this problem.

My friend and I had been thinking about buying 3-stone rings for a couple years. My husband and I had done some light B&M shopping, received the basic education on only clarity and color and had collected some data points for prices. But with our busy schedules, no time to shop without dragging the kids along, we never moved forward seriously on anything. In December, my friend “L” came back from a trip to the Caribbean, with a three stone ring. She was delighted, happy as pie about her purchase, wears it proudly, never has looked back. (I wish I was her sometimes!) In January, my family went on a Caribbean cruise…

We got off the ship, kids are engaged in supervised activities aboard so we have some time to shop and “gather more price data points” for the ring project. We had no intention of buying….we visit some places, gather prices…but at one place we found one we really liked. The guy of course haggled down a bunch, we still weren’t sure and actually went back to the ship to think it over…but basically said, we’ll never get around to it back home, we know the price is comparable/decent to what we’d do back home, “L” had a good experience, so we’ll go for it. The other factor was that the shop was on a list of several “guaranteed by the ship to appraise for the quality claimed or it will be replaced”. So we figured worse came to worse we could invoke the guarantee….yes this was impulsive… and totally goes against how we normally are, hence the subsequent disgust at ourselves….anyway…it happened, and the facts can’t be changed.

Here are the facts of purchase:
· 3 stone: .96center (G/H SI1), .52sides (G/H SI1)
· 14 kt white gold
· paid: $5095
· their est. replacement value: $6800

We go home, time to get the independent appraisal. (side note: my friend “L” thinks I am nuts…never even considers such a thing. Again, I wish I was her sometimes!). Pull out yellow pages, first surprise, it’s not that easy to find an independent appraiser! That’s when I go online to find someone, and this is the time I happen to find PS.

My husband takes it to get appraised. By the time we did this, I had started poking around PS and was starting to get more educated. When he called me with the results I thought I would fall off my chair. I was absolutely shocked…here you go:

· center stone: .96center (J I2)
o 6.45-6.46-3.72mm/depth est 57.5%
· .52 & .51 sides (J I1) – both sides have strong blue flour.
o 5.21-5.22-3.13mm/depth est 59.9%
o 5.17-5.18-3.11mm/dept est 60%
· All 3 girdles med to slightly thick, faceted.
· 14 kt white gold
· Total retail replacement value (new): $4400
· suggested purchase price (a verbal comment): $3500

At this point, armed with the proper info, I am floored and disgusted that my diamond is basically a “drill bit”. I search some more, come up with examples online of I2 diamonds, and mine looks nothing like these photos. There are no visible black carbon spots. I am obviously untrained and blind, and don’t know any better, but I cannot see inclusions when it is on my finger. I CAN see the inclusions when I hold it up with a light bulb behind the diamond. There is one large one in particular that goes from the dead center straight to the side. Again, I just don’t see it in normal lights when it’s on my finger. It’s very sparkly. Let me also add that in my community where I live and work, bling is not in. It’s very casual. People tend to have .75 and below original solitaires and there is no way anyone would look at my ring close up or for that matter even notice it! I however like to have nice quality things, so it really bugs me. I haven’t told this story to anyone, they would not get it at all (especially L!)

First thing we do is contest the purchase through Discover credit card as “vendor misrepresentation”. They put a temporary suspension of the charge on our account, and then took 6 weeks to get back to us. They denied the claim because the vendor provided the signed receipt – so there was no fraud. They apparently provide no protection for these types of circumstances and recommended that we take the jeweler to court. They proceeded to put the charge back on our card. (We still have 1 month to make the actual payment)

Second thing we do is invoke the “buyer’s guarantee”, the vendor used to mediate the dispute is called “ONBOARD MEDIA” (OM) and based in Miami. The guarantee states they will repair and replace but not refund, if you get an independent appraisal.

Last week, OM processed the claim, came back and said the vendor offered us a $700 settlement – obviously to match the appraisers replacement quote. We refused the offer and asked that they replace the stones with the quality quoted on their “appraisal”. OM then came back and said the vendor agreed to replace the ring with new stones. We said OK, but the new stones need to be GIA certified. (I’m sure the jeweler will laugh over that one but it’s worth a shot). OM stated they would tell the jeweler this and get back to us next week. And that’s where we are. Here are the questions running through my head

· If we move forward with replacement, is there a good chance that the new stones (GH SI1) could look WORSE, or be valued LESS than what I have or is the difference in grades so great that anything would be better than what I have?

· Can the vendor make this replacement without losing money, or am I basically totally screwed, in that he will replace it with something really awful to keep his profit?

· Is it better to just take the settlement to be done with it? (maybe try to ask for a little more off). Frankly I don’t want the ring now. The whole memory of this makes me physically sick. We are fortunate because this experience does not involve financial hardship for us. I CAN take the thing, get it reset into some other jewelry and start all over looking for a brand new one.

· Should I push Discover more?

Thanks for reading this far…..your advice is greatly appreciated.

At least the good news out of all of this is that I found PS, and will be prepared for the next purchase.

 

[lil_jay78]

Hi coconut,

I''m sorry to hear about your whole ordeal, and I can totally understand why you don''t want the ring anymore.

What certification did the stones originally come with? I think that would probably be where the vendor may be deceiving some of their customers. Because depending on the certification standards, there could be a discrepancy in the color and clarity descriptions. Sad to say, but this is just how some of these vendors work.

I don''t really know much about the "buyers guarantee," and what exactly you are entitled through with that guarantee, but I say you try to get as much from the vendor as you ARE entitled to. If you are entitled to the original stones you thoguht you purchased, then I would say to go ahead and try to get those stones.

I wish you the best of luck with your efforts in replacing your ring...

 

[mrssalvo]

First off, welcome to Pricescope Coconutpig

Secondly, please don''t beat yourself too much. Most of us have bad some bad decisions with $$ in some form or fashion and many of us, myself included have overpaid for a jewelery purchase or just blindly "trusted" a vendor too. Some say ignorance is bliss, your friend probably feels this way

. What''s done is done so now you just need to decide what you want to do. I probably would not trust them to replace the stones. If a full refund is out of the question, I''d probably accept the $700 difference so at least you''ll end up getting what you paid for. Then if you really don''t want the ring, you can look at resetting the stones or selling it on consignment somewhere. I''m so sorry for you ordeal and believe me, you are not the first, nor will you be the last person that this has happened too.

Now, that you''ve found PS, I would start all over and work on finding the ring of your dreams. The $ your PS education will save you help to make up for the $ you feel you lost with a bad purchase.

 

[valeria101]

Refund?


I don''t think G/Si1 could look worse than what you have, but it could be a badly cut, sleepy stone... Your description of the ''experience'' with this seller so far doesn''t rise high hopes for the replacement

 

[widget]

Oh, Coconut...I''m SO GLAD you decided to come out of lurkdom and join PS! Welcome!!

PLEASE don''t beat yourself up over this purchase...you are SO not alone! (Don''t ask me about the ''fine'' tanzanite I bought in St Thomas years ago...

)

I couldn''t begin to advise you on how to proceed with this. Obviously it would be great if you could get all your money back.

If it were me, I''d probably take the $700 as much out of laziness as anything else. You did like the look of the diamonds when you bought them, and said they were sparkly. I''d probably put them aside to put into a pendant or something later. But that''s me..

This is such a great place to hang out and learn. When the time is right, you can have the fun and satisfaction of getting the ring of your dreams at a fair value. I''m sure many Pricescopers would love to help!

Best of luck to you, and I hope you stick around!

widget

 

[ladykemma]

do you love the ring? does it bring you joy? i think your original joy in the ring will come back.

I think your appraiser is wrong. you say it is eye clean? no way is an I2 eye clean I think your appraiser has got to be "off".

can you post a picture and do you have a loupe?

the depth is right. the fluorescent stones are probably gorgeous, no? there are a number of us who have fluorescent stones who take great joy in their "poppiness". there are a number of us who have j stones. J stones are "cool". take the $700 and try to find the lost joy in the ring. if it really bugs you replace the middle stone with a screaming strong blue fluorescent stone to match the side stones.

 

[BrownEyes]

Coconut:

Welcome to PriceScope ... you will undoubtedly find this forum to be an unending source of information and support.

I''m in a bit of a rush here (it''s dinner time at my house!), but just wanted to add that I''m with LadyKemma 110% While I''m sorry that you were apparently scammed, if you love the ring - - if it sparkles and brings you joy - - I would take the $700 and chalk this whole thing up to experience ...

ALSO, if you have the time to search the various threads on this forum, you will see (as LadyKemma has already pointed out), that most PS''ers ADORE well-cut "J" stones and find them to be a great value (me too!); and that the combination of "J" + flourescence can actually be a GOOD thing.

Your ring sounds lovely in spite of its perceived flaws, and if you feel that the $700 will effectively "make you whole", I''d say go for it and forget about trying to get better quality diamonds from this vendor.

In the meantime, try to enjoy what sounds like a lovely new purchase, and of course, post pictures when you can.

All the best ~ BrownEyes

 

[moon river]

Welcome to PS. Of course hindsight is 20/20. Stop kicking yourself. We''ve all made poor jewelry choices prior to PS. Consider this an education each time you log on here. I learn something new every day.

 

[pricescope]

Coconutpig,

Check out this thread: My appraisal is different than GIA Report. There is a possibility that the color and clarity assessment of the mounted stones was not 100% accurate.

 

[Sundial]

Welcome and please don''t feel bad about sharing your situation. I am the "proud" owner of an emerald bracelet purchased in St. Thomas myself so I know how persuasive these vendors can be. I agree with just keeping the $700 and enjoying the ring. It must have looked good to you at the time. Sometimes ignorance really is bliss! We all have jewelry that is less than perfect that we acquired before pricescope, but that doesn''t mean it isn''t pretty in its own way!

 

[fire&ice]

First, I wouldn''t worry a bit about the blue Fluor of the side stones. It is my understanding that grades can be two off - sux - but that is my understanding.

My concern is the I2 grading. Did the appraiser point out the "flaws"? He should have plotted the inclusions. There are some I2''s that can be cleaner than others.

I don''t know. I would probably take the $700.00. But, if the appraiser thought that the ring should sell for almost 1k than his appraised price - why didn''t he put that in writing? You would have more of a bargining chip. Could you negotiate a higher settlement?

Good luck - we all fall prey to impulse buying. And, don''t beat yourself up over it. You may have been absolutely right about "never getting around to it" in the States. So, if at all possible enjoy your "bonus" ring.

 

[ello]

Hi Coco – Welcome! No need to feel sad we’ve all made mistakes – how could you have known…
It’s not like they teach us these things when we first open a book at age 4. I did not know anything about a ‘good cut’ or a ‘bad cut’ or ‘low clarity’ diamond, needless to say ‘crown angles’…and I was born in South Africa where diamonds are very common. I always assumed that 1ct is a 1 ct and that’s it….You will learn so much here. I learn something new every time I visit the site. It’s actually fascinating and loads of fun at the same time. I’m so sorry to hear about your dilemma, good luck with everything. The most important thing is to be content/at ease – listen to your heart! Numbers are not always important.

 

[denverappraiser]

Coconut,

I wish I could say I haven’t heard stories like this before but it’s surprisingly common at some of the cruise port chains. It’s likely to be a tough battle if you choose to fight it. The answer to your question will be in the fine print of the ‘guarantee’ that OM is mediating. Read it over carefully and make sure you understand it.

Discover. They have a very broad standard for ‘vendor misrepresentation’ and I’m not too surprised that they went with the vendor here. The jeweler promised to deliver a ring that SOMEONE was willing to call an H SI-1 and they delivered as agreed. You’re unlikely to win here but consider using a different brand of card for your purchases in the future. Discover has lots of competitors and this kind of support is an area where the cards compete with one another for the privilege of your business.

The merchant. They could definitely build a ring of the agreed specs for under your budget if they felt like it but it’s a whole different question whether they will want to do it. H-SI1 and J-I2 are pretty different and you’ve got a good argument that they should replace the ring with a new one. The customary way for them to win this battle is to simply wear you down. The ‘guarantee’ will usually give them something like 8 weeks to make the replacement after you send back the ring and any rejection just be based on an independent appraiser who meets a remarkably narrow set of requirements (there would be much less trouble if they would just use the sorts of appraisers that they require you to use). If the appraiser rejects it, at your expense, they will repeat the process. They know that you are likely to get frustrated after one or two rounds of this and that eventually you’ll just give up and go away. Getting GIA graded stones is almost certainly out of the question but EGL-USA may be a possibility depending on who the vendor has relationships with. Often they will have a clause that says they are complying with the contract if they give you one grade lower in color, clarity or both so they can argue that you would be whole if they can provide you with an EGL I SI2. This may very well be what you have but you can probably get a better one if you fight for it, pay for another appraisal or two and possibly forgo the $700 shut-up bribe (don’t bet on being able to get both a new ring AND the money).

OM. Did these people get involved because of the cruise line or were they chosen by the dealer? The cruise line is probably in the thick of this. They received advertising revenue from the jeweler in order to get the cruise staff to promote the store. They usually have some kind of guarantee program that backs their clients who shop at particular stores. It’s not usually a great program but get them involved unless this is already where OM came from. OM gets paid to resolve issues. They don’t really care who ‘wins’, just if you settle and agree not to sue the cruise line or the jeweler. This is ok, but it’s worth understanding that their objectives are not really aligned with yours.

Suing. Lawsuits are expensive, time consuming and emotionally draining. That said, the strength or weakness of your case will lie in the text of the ‘guarantee’. If you’re serious about it, take the guarantee, the appraisal report and any documentation given to you by either the jeweler, the cruise line or OM to your attorney and ask them about the merits of your case. Bring your checkbook.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[RockDoc]

Coconut

Perhaps there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

Being not far from Miami, I get to see a fair amount of Caribbean items.

I have a bunch of questions that is better to discuss via email. The answers to the questions can have either some good news about what to do.

I've helped quite a few people with problems that are related, but to hash this stuff out on the forum would be improper.



Rockdoc

 

[pricescope]

Coconutpig, we are lucky to have some of the most knowledgeable appraisers contributing to the forum.

Denverappraiser, thank you for your detailed comments.

Date: 4/9/2006 7:02:51 PM
Author: RockDoc
...
I've helped quite a few people with problems that are related, but to hash this stuff out on the forum would be improper.

Rockdoc, why would it be improper? If you could tell about resembling cases from your practice, it would be very helpful and more appropriate on the public forum than suggesting to contact you privately.

 

[denverappraiser]

Rockdoc,

I understand that it''s a sensitive topic and that you are careful to avoid trouble for either yourself or your clients. Because of your address and how long you''ve been in business, you probably see more of this than anyone in the country. Perhaps you could get specific permission from one of your clients to tell their story using ficticious names as a benefit to others with similar situations. You also may be able to modify your list of preliminary questions to avoid discussing any particular dealer, cruise line or port while keeping the substance intact. I''m sure your thoughts would be valuable.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[coconutpig]

Hi everyone, just had a chance to check in and I am overwhelmed with the support, links, suggestions, and overall welcome.

Thank you for that.

fire&ice - no, the appraiser didn''t point out flaws or plot them.....my husband handled the transaction and did not realize to ask for that discussion.

denverappraiser - thanks for your very detailed response. on your description of how the exchange process would go...the "wearing you down" routine is exactly what I fear. how emotionally draining, expensive and time consuming. The nearest ind. appraiser is 1 hour away from me....OM was chosen by the cruise, yes, they were paid by jeweler to be in their shopping brochure...(jeweler even used that as a ''selling point'' in negotiations...what a joke) . Suing...just won''t go there.

At the moment I''m leaning to taking the $700 bribe and chalking up to experience. Doing any further transactions with this jeweler seems risky and stressful.

This week, I''ll hear back from OM and will let you know what happens next.

 

[Kaleigh]

Keep us posted. I''m sorry for your bad experience. Many of us have done the same thing so don''t be too hard on yourself. Stick around, you will learn a lot on here.

 

[mrssalvo]

Yes, please keep us posted and I hope you''ll continue to stick around this place.

 

[portoar]

I''m in the "take the $700" camp. You liked the ring when you got it. The stones were mounted when it was appraised, and all the experts around here say that the mounting can affect the grading. The bottom line is you are worried you paid too much. The $700 will help to alleviate this fear, even if only partially.

I would take the $700, add a little more money to the pot

and go to whiteflash.com and buy some nice stud earrings as a consolation prize for the worry you have gone through!

http://www.whiteflash.com/golden-wardrobe/Gold_Details.aspx?ItemCode=WFER-22641-SET&CategID=54

See, then you will have some lovely sparkly earrings to go with the pretty ring that you liked when you bought it!

The bottom line is, there are all kinds of people who pay too much, for different reasons. Some pay a 30% premium for the Tiffany blue box or to have a "branded" diamond like "Hearts on Fire." My husband wanted me to pay a 30% premium for Canadian branded diamonds. These people go into it knowing they are paying too much, but they have their reason. Some people go into a maul jeweler and pay way too much for junk. Some people like you go on a beautiful cruise, find a lovely diamond ring, realize they have something they like in hand and won''t have time to track down another ring back home, and buy. What''s wrong with that?

As many seasoned diamond buyers on this site say, ultimately the numbers (color/clarity) are just numbers. If the ring "spoke" to you when you bought it, then it was worth paying a little premium to find a pretty ring while on a lovely vacation cruise. I would enjoy the memory of the vacation and finding a nice ring and not worry about it not being exactly the stated color/clarity -- especially if the inclusions aren''t apparant! There are lots of people on this site who love J stones (if it really is a J) and many many fans of flouresence (I''m hoping when I get a diamond pendant to get a flourescent diamond).

Lastly, we would all love to see some pictures of the ring!

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 4/9/2006 7:33:47 PM
Author: Pricescope
Coconutpig, we are lucky to have some of the most knowledgeable appraisers contributing to the forum.

Denverappraiser, thank you for your detailed comments.

Date: 4/9/2006 7:02:51 PM
Author: RockDoc
...
I''ve helped quite a few people with problems that are related, but to hash this stuff out on the forum would be improper.

Rockdoc, why would it be improper? If you could tell about resembling cases from your practice, it would be very helpful and more appropriate on the public forum than suggesting to contact you privately.

This goes a lot deeper than to comment generically about one purchaser''s experience vs. another.

There are some very legal questions that have to be answered first so that applicable suggestions can apply.

Some of the questions are :

1. Was the purchase made in a foreign country in the carib or in a US territory.

2. Is there duty payable on the purchase, and if so was it declared?

3. Does the seller have a US office ? Some are american based companies.

4. Is the "guarantee" company owned by a particular foreign seller?

5. What are the terms and conditions on the back of the receipt, and did the purchaser sign it?

6. Does the seller belong to a group or organization that assists in making problem purchases corrected?

7. Does the appraisal rendered by an independent here to verify the purchase done accurately, properly, and does it address the salient matters at hand?



These are just a few of the considerations one needs to make in addressing such problem purchases ( if in fact they are).

Leonid, one has to keep in mind that writing the details ( even if done broadly ) that the seller can bring a legal action against one that publishes details. This has been done already, and has cost the people who have done it thousands defending lawsuits from problem sellers.

So even if I change the names, of the parties, and would have their permission to disclose the details even broadly, one opens themselves up to legal action from the seller, even if the writing stated is factual and not libelous or slanderous.
One can file a lawsuit whether or not it is founded or unfounded, and the defendant will have to bear the expense of a legal defense.

So as much as I''d like to exposing facts or details of these things has to be very carefully done.

I do have "tons" of background stuff which I can use, however solving this problem requires the cooperation, effort and time from "victims". It has been my experience that victims don''t want to be identified because they feel embarrased and ashamed.

This unfortunately, puts a halt to exposing these type of matters, so that those who do practice deceptive sale practices, get away with continuing it.

However, I will be exposing some ebay sellers that do practice deceptive practices very soon.

Rockdoc

 

[Roland]

I don''t know what to say. I think you should accept the settlement and keep the ring. I think,though, that if you were initially happy with the ring and it was eye clean to you, then you should just try to enjoy it. If you thought it was lovely before, it''s still the same lovely ring. Grading shouldn''t affect how you feel about the diamonds. I hope you find some peace with the sitiuation. Don''t beat yourself up about the whole thing! Good luck.

 

[RockDoc]

Good news here!

The light at the end of the tunnel has let in lots of daylight.

Just a little FRIENDLY persausion with the right people.

I''ll let them announce the details.

Rockdoc

 

[widget]

YIPPEE!!!!! I love good news!

Can''t wait to hear the details...


widget

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 4/24/2006 7:49:10 AM
Author: widget
YIPPEE!!!!! I love good news!

Can''t wait to hear the details...



widget

me too

 

[blodthecat]

I would want the diamonds replacing. If your two side stones have strong blue flouro, you would want the centre stone the same. If the flouro was only mild, then it wouldn''t matter.

Most important thing to remember is that life is all about experience...which does involve making the odd mistake.

So don''t beat youself up any more over this...just see if you can recover anything from the situation.

 

[coconutpig]

Hi Everyone…I was going to wait to make the announcement until it was 100% final, given that I am still in a state of mild disbelief, but I suppose 99% final will do!

So where I last left you all, it was two weeks ago, Apr 9. We had received an offer to settle from OM, the third party guarantee company from the cruise ship, for $700. (the guarantee at purchase promised that the ring would appraise for the quality claimed or we’d get a replacement – but no refunds would be given). We had declined the offer and asked for the replacement and OM was supposed to call us back Apr 10 for return shipping instructions. And we posted here for advice because we weren’t sure we were doing the right thing.

Most of you advised going for the $700 and moving on. Frankly we were going to do that. We were sick of this whole thing, very time consuming…..and we were concerned about what the “replacement” would look like. We did NOT want to begin the cycle of getting the replacement, getting it appraised, sending it back, over and over till we got what we wanted and invested even more time and money into the problem.

But it really bugged me that they could get away with this …and I wanted to be able to say we tried everything we could….and I wanted a REFUND! so we did the following:

1) called Discover again to escalate the dispute. They said they needed to pull the info from their archives and would call back with 24-48 hours. SIDE NOTE: this was 2 weeks ago and they NEVER phoned back. We’ve applied for another card and they’ve lost a 20 yr cardholder. Their loss.

2) we started talking with Rockdoc . He advised us to be patient and NOT take the $700 bribe just yet, that he’d try to help us out.

Rockdoc proceeded over the next week and a half to work with some of his contacts in the industry and area. He gently persuaded….and yes, it’s true, HE GOT THEM TO AGREE TO A FULL REFUND!!!!!!

Meanwhile we had been prepared to hold off OM when they phoned for the instructions for the replacement, but funny enough they never called back until two days after Rockdoc called us with the good news (nearly 2 weeks later). They told us “the vendor cannot find a supplier who can provide a suitable replacement so they’ve agreed to issue a full refund”. Ha ha. Anyway the refund is being handled though OM. The ring was sent back last Fri to St. Thomas registered, insured, etc, and it’s halfway down there now.

What can I say…I came here for moral support and advice and ended up with a full refund. Thanks to all of you, ESPECIALLY ROCKDOC for volunteering his time to make this happen and convincing us to be patient. He knows now grateful I am. Amazing!

So I’ll be hanging around here regularly now, until I am emotionally ready to buy again, (from the right source this time).

And I’m doubling my budget this time around for consolation!

 

[moon river]

Glad all is well.

 

[bstraszheim]

Oh, I am so glad that it worked out well for you! How kind of RocDoc to get involved and help with the situation. I have heard many, many good things about him and have seen him post, always with helpfulness and kindness.

We all love a good diamond hunt, so when you are ready, let us know and we can help you find killer stones and a great setting. A ring that you will love.

What a great resolution!

I wish you well,

Bridget

 

[togal]

I''m so glad it worked out for you. This website is the best! It''s just great that experts, such as RockDoc, are able/willing to lend their time and expertise to helping people with these types of situations. I too have made a few regretful purchases while cruising the Caribbean, but luckily nothing quite so pricey. Good luck with your next purchase.