Bad Taste left in Mouth

[ChunkyCushionLover]

I do apologise for anything I said that may have upset anyone; I must learn to be more thick skinned.

For that I do apologise to you Chrono ...

As for pricing the stone; you really can not do that until you get the gem off the dop and evaluate the gem. After having to pay another cutter to do what she wanted it drove the cost up. Also not having any more of that rough that I could find at this time the gem became more valuable to me as a collector also. I did offer her the gem at significantly reduced price for the going rate. We could not reach an agreement so I decided to keep it for myself.

Yes Chrono is correct that it was 2 months as weeks was a typo.
I had to wait for Grey's schedule.

As to mentioning the emails yes that was wrong as I would not do that; it just quantified that I was not lying about what was said to me by Chrono.

I will not respond to this thread anymore as it will become a contest of wills and that is a waste of precious time.

I do apologise to anyone I may have offended and not acted in the utmost professional manner; it is not my nature.

Most respectfully;

Dana

Dana,

I am glad you spoke up and I understand your reasoning.

1) This gem was not cut by you and you had to pay another cutter.
2) At this time the rough cannot be replaced
3) The terms of your transaction with Chrono were not confirmed(nor could they be because the final stone weight was not known)
4) There was no obligation on either party to complete the sale.

Based on these facts:

You are free to seek the market price for this gem or keep it. Out of fairness to her expectations which may not have matched your own you offered what you felt to be a discounted market price which was refused. I beleive this concludes any reasonable obligations that you might have in this matter.

I also think that if anyone complains publicly about a vendor and leaves out important details, the other side is well within their rights to cut and paste the full communication and you should not be censured for offering to post emails especailly if they contain inflammatory language that provides proper context. That door was opened when your private communications were made public.

I would submit to both of you that in future your expections are clearly communicated to the other party so that their is a proper meeting of the minds which is crucial for all transactions.

 

[Burberrygirl]

CCL, I agree with you.

I saw this thread when it was first posted but decided to wait to offer my opinion. I can see both sides.

Chrono,

I’m sorry you’re disappointed. I think you both have acknowledged that mistakes were made. Hopefully, in the future everyone will be able to express their expectations more clearly. I’d like to add that I respect you and have always thought of you as a nice and helpful person. I hope you find the perfect garnet!

Dana,

I see your side as well. My father owns a business and he recently had to deal with a situation where a customer was unhappy and wrote awful and offensive things about my father and his business on the internet. Thankfully, this situation between you and Chrono is nowhere near as bad and I commend you both for acting civilly. I don’t know you personally and haven’t bought anything from you but I would love to in the future.

I guess some people don’t click and just aren’t meant to do business together.

 

[Aoife]

It sounds as though there was a significant degree of misunderstanding on both sides, and that two highly respected members of PS have had a difficult and upsetting experience. For the rest of us, I think it's a healthy reminder that it's important to make sure that both participants in a transaction are on the same page regarding expectations.

 

[Cind11]

It sounds as though there was a significant degree of misunderstanding on both sides, and that two highly respected members of PS have had a difficult and upsetting experience. For the rest of us, I think it's a healthy reminder that it's important to make sure that both participants in a transaction are on the same page regarding expectations.

These are exactly my thoughts. I have heard so many good things about Dana and Chrono seems like a stand up gal. I am sure the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

[VapidLapid]

Cind11, your cat has a very shiny nose!

I'm glad this is over. (is it over?) bad experience for both of you. I hope you can both move on with no remorse or malice. I had a bad experience recently with a CS recommended seller/member and chose not to address it here, hoping it was an anomaly. Paypal saw the dispute my way so all I was out was some bad feelings and the inconvenience of having tied some money up with a deadbeat for a month.

I would like to buy from Dana and I would like to be sitting next to Chrono at Cipriani's

 

[cellentani]

I have long held both Chrono and Dana in high regard, so I don't post these comments lightly, but I'd like to make some points.

I understand Chrono's frustration at having to wait 2 months, but honestly, I've had to wait at least as long, if not longer, for stones from other vendors. Having to coordinate with another cutter would understandably add to the timeframe. Ultimately, Dana delivered the stone, and unless an earlier date was promised, he fulfilled any obligation.

There are a lot of factors that go into pricing a stone. Just because a similar stone sold for a certain price, that doesn't mean a different piece of rough, even if from the same parcel, will be at the same price/carat. Dana should be free to price his stones however necessary, and just because the parcel was bought years ago, doesn't mean that we get to enjoy decades-old prices. From a vendor's standpoint, their money has been tied up in this investment, and it is only realistic for them to see some return. Chrono, your statement regarding other lapidaries, that "there is an unwritten understanding concerning the general pricing of the stone..." has me baffled - I have never done this. Any cutter I've worked with has given me a ballpark price/carat. You acknowledge that price should have been discussed with Dana prior to the stone being cut, but I am curious about this unwritten understanding with other lapidaries - do you really not have a conversation regarding price beforehand? I'm sure I'm misunderstanding something here.

Chrono, you also say that "all of a sudden, he writes back to say that he has changed his mind and has decided to keep the garnet," which initially led me to believe that out of nowhere, he yanked the stone out from under you. Yet, if Dana's account is to be trusted, there was correspondence regarding the price, and an agreement couldn't be reached. He's under no obligation to meet you at your price point.

I'm not sure why this transaction exploded the way it did - it should have been quite simple: Chrono asks for stone and Dana provides stone and price, Chrono asks for a lower price so Dana provides a price he can live with, which Chrono can either accept or graciously decline. Again, I totally understand Chrono's disappointment over waiting 2 months and then a higher than expected price, but other than Dana's rash offer to provide personal emails (which he obviously later retracted), I don't think he did anything egregious, at least not that I'm privy to.

 

[StonieGrl]

Another example of why Pricescope is referred to as "PMScope" in many many arenas.

More Chinese-made halo rings with pink stones for everybody! Whee!!!!

Edit: And all of you who have taken free stones from Dana in the past, well you can return those if you really think Dana is such a lame businessman and person.

 

[Treenbean]

Kudos to Dana for stating his side of the story. Nothing happens without transparency, hopefully common ground was met.

Stoniegrl: Jeeez why so hostile and passive-aggressive? Not everyone has pink stoned, halo'd rings made in china. People are generally good, and do the best with what they have, and if that means setting a stone in a not-so-expensive setting.... So be it. Your value judgements are your own so don't push them on other people.

 

[soberguy]

I'm wondering if we need a seperate forum for vendor issues. Not sure this is an appropriate place to vent frustration vs. discussing colored gemstones. I am not trying to diminish the issue on either side, just not sure this is the right place for it.

 

[Cind11]

Cind11, your cat has a very shiny nose!

Haha Vapid!!! Some nice PS'er put a Rudolph nose and reindeer ears on my cat last year at Christmastime. Can't find the original picture to change it back and have been too lazy to get a new avatar!

 

[cellentani]

My apologies, I'm deleting my unnecessarily harsh comment to stoniegrl.

 

[VapidLapid]

Cind11,
I actually thought you had balanced a Mahenge on the cat's nose for the photo!

 

[smitcompton]

Hi Chrono,

You are about the most reasoned person on CS. If you are annoyed, I have to believe the vendor did not explain the possibilities of time and cost to you. That is his responsibility. You said you wanted a stone from the same rough. It was at this point Dana should have told you this stone may cost you more.

Sometimes I do wish people would not talk about cutters and jewelers as being or not being professionals. For me they are not--just people who react like most of us people. Even those who are professionals(DRs. Lawyers etc.) do not always act like professionals.
Dana should have made it clear. Obviously he thinks he can get more money for from someone else. Little does he know he has lost what anyone else would want. You as a client. He hasn't kept up here. Dana gets defensive. Another of his posts shows this.

Sorry for your trouble. LD thinks its fate. I'll go along with that.

Thanks always for your help.

Annette

 

[Liane]

Now that both sides have said their parts, I'm going to +1 everything Cellentani said, express my regret that what should have been an amicable transaction blew up like this, and leave it at that.

 

[VapidLapid]

Another example of why Pricescope is referred to as "PMScope" in many many arenas.

More Chinese-made halo rings with pink stones for everybody! Whee!!!!

And your obnoxiously snide comment is exactly why you fit in here! And for god's sake, I don't think Chrono even has a Chinese-made halo!

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[chrono]

I'm out of time so I'll be really brief and post more later.

Cellentani,
Dana did indeed yank the stone from under me. He stated an X price, which I then counter offered. I would be more than satisfied if he declined it, but he retracted the sale completely at that point, citing he changed his mind and now wants to keep the stone in his personal collection.

ETA
Dr Weaver cut the spessartite for the other PSer, so to claim that he has to charge more for the cutting of this spessartite seems pretty lame to me.

Sorry for the hit and run, but I really have to go.

 

[Cind11]

Cind11,
I actually thought you had balanced a Mahenge on the cat's nose for the photo!

That is funny!!!! I wish that were true! I don't happen to have an unset Mahenge at the moment - perhaps I will try Gene's ruby. (Well maybe not lol)

 

[iLander]

Another example of why Pricescope is referred to as "PMScope" in many many arenas.

More Chinese-made halo rings with pink stones for everybody! Whee!!!!

Edit: And all of you who have taken free stones from Dana in the past, well you can return those if you really think Dana is such a lame businessman and person.

HEY! That "PMScope" comment was plain mean!

Why are you feeling so mean? Dana is a great, but you didn't INVENT the guy. . .

(just trying to lighten it up, not trying to pick on you)

PS is a proud affiliation of highly picky, somewhat cheap, and collectively educated prosumers and we expect incredibly (beyond human) courteous service at all times. In return we are what marketers (and pushers ) call "heavy users". Explain to me, please, how many people will buy an unmounted stone that is not a diamond? I've never met a single 3D person (Pser's are all 2D to me, since they are all tucked away in my flat laptop) that does this for fun.

If, on some other board, they call us names, it's because whoever is doing the talking is mad because we have seen behind the curtain of the jewelry business. We know that a 4 x 6 almandine garnet in a (probably Chinese ) worm spit diamond setting is not supposed to cost $4000. We've not only seen behind the curtain, we are cavorting, and playing, and generally causing havoc back there. That makes some people, on those other boards, mad.

Well too bad.

 

[lelser]

My rules for cutting on commission is to price the rough, add the cutting cost, and give a price. I know which piece of rough I'm using, and I know my price to cut so it's not all that hard to price in advance. If the buyer backs out of the deal, the stone then gets priced at market rate, which is almost always higher, and put into inventory.

Only if I get a request for something that I would not want to put in inventory will I have a non-refundable charge. That's pretty rare.

I can't imaging cutting a stone for a client without giving a firm price in advance. It leads to heartbreak for everyone.

 

[Largosmom]

This sure sounds like a case of missed communication (yes said that way on purpose). I don't know Chrono, but have enjoyed her posts. She is obviously frustrated.

Chrono, I can only offer that I HAVE done business with Dana and have found him to be a generous, and honest person, and have always received a gracious response to questions.

I realize that your experience and perceptions are your own, and I can't be in your shoes, or his, but I hope you'll give him the benefit of at least being honest with you, whether you agree with the results of the negotiation or not.

He has always stated a reasonable price to me on the stones I have purchased, and has included something in there for free. I don't think he would in any way want to cheat you on the price of a stone and I take him at his word if he says that a particular stone is more costly than a previous one for whatever reasons. I respect that your perception does not agree with mine, at least not at the moment. I know that not all customers are a good match for every vendor. Perhaps Dana isn't a good match to meet your expectations.

I will certainly continue to do business with him based on my own experiences and am a bit sad that yours were not to your satisfaction, because I do enjoy working with him on projects.

Regards and respect to you both,

Laura

 

[Lovinggems]

Sorry that the transaction didn't work out. Hope both parties is able to put this behind them.
I think Fortekitty's spectacular spessartite is making everyone behave irrationally, I know I go a little crazy every time I see it or even thinking about it.

 

[Largosmom]

Me too, Lovinggems. I go look at pictures of it on a regular basis.

 

[Fly Girl]

This sure sounds like a case of missed communication (yes said that way on purpose). I don't know Chrono, but have enjoyed her posts. She is obviously frustrated.

Chrono, I can only offer that I HAVE done business with Dana and have found him to be a generous, and honest person, and have always received a gracious response to questions.

I realize that your experience and perceptions are your own, and I can't be in your shoes, or his, but I hope you'll give him the benefit of at least being honest with you, whether you agree with the results of the negotiation or not.

He has always stated a reasonable price to me on the stones I have purchased, and has included something in there for free. I don't think he would in any way want to cheat you on the price of a stone and I take him at his word if he says that a particular stone is more costly than a previous one for whatever reasons. I respect that your perception does not agree with mine, at least not at the moment. I know that not all customers are a good match for every vendor. Perhaps Dana isn't a good match to meet your expectations.

I will certainly continue to do business with him based on my own experiences and am a bit sad that yours were not to your satisfaction, because I do enjoy working with him on projects.

Regards and respect to you both,

Laura

Ditto, Laura. You have stated my experiences with Dana exactly. LG, I think you are on to something there.

 

[movie zombie]

[quote="ChunkyCushionLover|1288992946|2756222Dana,

I am glad you spoke up and I understand your reasoning.

1) This gem was not cut by you and you had to pay another cutter.
2) At this time the rough cannot be replaced
3) The terms of your transaction with Chrono were not confirmed(nor could they be because the final stone weight was not known)
4) There was no obligation on either party to complete the sale.

Based on these facts:

You are free to seek the market price for this gem or keep it. Out of fairness to her expectations which may not have matched your own you offered what you felt to be a discounted market price which was refused. I beleive this concludes any reasonable obligations that you might have in this matter.

I also think that if anyone complains publicly about a vendor and leaves out important details, the other side is well within their rights to cut and paste the full communication and you should not be censured for offering to post emails especailly if they contain inflammatory language that provides proper context. That door was opened when your private communications were made public.

I would submit to both of you that in future your expections are clearly communicated to the other party so that their is a proper meeting of the minds which is crucial for all transactions.[/quote]

plus one.

i would add that a spess of 5 carats is going to command more per carat than one under 4 carats. given the actual cut weight would not be known until AFTER the cutting and no promises had been made re cost, i'd be pissed to have lost out but chalk it up to another learning lesson to ask even more questions and perhaps even put a deposit down next time.

MoZo

 

[TravelingGal]

So that is my side of the story and anyone wanting un-doctored copies of the emails; just ask.

I honestly do not think you should be publicly offering to provide a customer's verbiage in an email without their permission. That's very unprofessional.

Both sides of the stories were told, that should suffice for this thread IMO.

Ditto. I recently had an unhappy experience with a vendor and didn't even post their emails because I feel it's not right to post that kind of stuff without permission. And to offer these emails to anyone? Not cool.

Re: price - it is an issue that it wasn't discussed. IMHO, I don't think one should just assume that the price will be similar. One should clarify. Unless you see the invoice for what the PSer paid, you can't even know exactly what the person paid. But Chrono has expressed that this was an error, and I commend her for her very diplomatic response.

OK, I see what the hype was about with the price, which I do forget is posted and everyone looks at the same sites. So strike what I said about what people paid. But it seems that the other stone was flukishly low!

 

[T L]

Another example of why Pricescope is referred to as "PMScope" in many many arenas.

More Chinese-made halo rings with pink stones for everybody! Whee!!!!

Where did this come from, and what does it have to do with this discussion? Adding further insult to this thread, and the entire forum for that matter, does absolutely no good for either party in question.

Chrono, Dana,
I hope you come to an amicable resolution to this, but if not, at least you both were able to make their issues known here, and people can come to whatever conclusions they like.

 

[PrecisionGem]

I get the feeling sometimes that people think we cutters can just order up another piece Of rough and cut an identical stone. This may come from buying diamonds where the jeweler can just order a matching stone. With colored stones and buying rough it's much different. Often there just isn't a similar stone to be had. Also when cutting a stone, you never really know what size it's going to turn out.. I can understand Lisa's approach, but I don't work that way. What if you had a stone tha t you thought you would be able to cut a 3 ct stone from, and gave a price, but then for whatever reason only got a 2 ct stone out of it. Would you charge the price of the 3 ct stone? On the flip side what if it finished at 4 cts. What if the stone cracked into pieces on the dop and you ended up with nothing? What if the stone ends up with some eye visible inclusions when at the time you quoted you thought it would be clean. I know I have many times ended up selling finished stones for less than I paid for the rough.

I think ist best to get a general budget range, then select a rough that looks like it will work. No commitments on either side.

 

[Arkteia]

So, cutters have emotional attachment to their stones. Collectors do, too! Maybe even more than cutters. As to this stone, it became a "conflict stone" (please excuse the metaphor) an I am not sure that anyone now has good feelings about it. I should not give advices to cutters as to what to do with their stones, but in this specific case, I think I should. I think the best thing should be to auction it on the ebay and donate the money to some charity. Many non-PS-ers would be happy to buy it, I am sure. There are many good causes, Gary auctioned his stone for Haiti fund, and I know that Lisa helped a PS-er in need. I know that Dana has a soft spot for charities, he once offered me some stones/rough to sell on my church auction (unfortunately, people in my parish do not know much about gems) and he likes to help people in need. Many disasters happen in this world, take recent one, in Indonesia, for example.

Just an idea.

 

[Arkteia]

[quote="ChunkyCushionLover|1288992946|2756222Dana,

I am glad you spoke up and I understand your reasoning.

1) This gem was not cut by you and you had to pay another cutter.
2) At this time the rough cannot be replaced
3) The terms of your transaction with Chrono were not confirmed(nor could they be because the final stone weight was not known)
4) There was no obligation on either party to complete the sale.

Based on these facts:

You are free to seek the market price for this gem or keep it. Out of fairness to her expectations which may not have matched your own you offered what you felt to be a discounted market price which was refused. I beleive this concludes any reasonable obligations that you might have in this matter.

I also think that if anyone complains publicly about a vendor and leaves out important details, the other side is well within their rights to cut and paste the full communication and you should not be censured for offering to post emails especailly if they contain inflammatory language that provides proper context. That door was opened when your private communications were made public.

I would submit to both of you that in future your expections are clearly communicated to the other party so that their is a proper meeting of the minds which is crucial for all transactions.

plus one.

i would add that a spess of 5 carats is going to command more per carat than one under 4 carats. given the actual cut weight would not be known until AFTER the cutting and no promises had been made re cost, i'd be pissed to have lost out but chalk it up to another learning lesson to ask even more questions and perhaps even put a deposit down next time.

MoZo[/quote]


I believe that a lot of communication pertaining this stone has not been disclosed. I also side with Chrono. Among other things, a certain amount of money is allocated to a purchase, and other nice purchases are not made in anticipation of the stone. Waiting over two, three, four or five months and being left in a total dismay is not, really, a norm.

 

[movie zombie]

So, cutters have emotional attachment to their stones. Collectors do, too! Maybe even more than cutters. As to this stone, it became a "conflict stone" (please excuse the metaphor) an I am not sure that anyone now has good feelings about it. I should not give advices to cutters as to what to do with their stones, but in this specific case, I think I should. I think the best thing should be to auction it on the ebay and donate the money to some charity. Many non-PS-ers would be happy to buy it, I am sure. There are many good causes, Gary auctioned his stone for Haiti fund, and I know that Lisa helped a PS-er in need. I know that Dana has a soft spot for charities, he once offered me some stones/rough to sell on my church auction (unfortunately, people in my parish do not know much about gems) and he likes to help people in need. Many disasters happen in this world, take recent one, in Indonesia, for example.Just an idea.

wow, just wow.....once again a pricescoper being helpful and telling a business owner how to run his business.......while your heart may be in the right place as there are many disasters in this world, yes, you were right, you should not tell cutters what to do with their stones.

Dana is in business to make $. he may be a nice guy and have donated to your church auction......but this is a dispute between Dana and Chrono and how an auction on ebay is going to make Chrono ok with losing out on the stone is beyond me [of course it would give her and every other bidder the chance to get it for less than what she originally offered to pay for it, i guess]. i do not see that he has an obligation to satisfy the pricescope community and auction off this stone. just an idea.

MoZo

ps i realize my response will probably get me flamed. and while Chrono and Dana have had their problems this go around, i continue to find it presumptious on the part of pricescope participants to tell vendors how to run their businesses. this has been discussed before in other threads and yet it still amazes me.