Banned Books

[YadaYadaYada]

I am not a supporter of banning books, however I am a supporter of informed consent. Parents have a right to know what their kids are learning, what books they will be reading etc. We do pay for this “free” public education via taxes so this disclosure seems reasonable.

 

[seaurchin]

I

Who says you have to?
Take control; eliminate bad people from your life.

I have but it still sucks. I don't think they are bad people. I think they are misguided people, which would be okay if it wasn't on such a horrific topic. My true feeling is that everybody isn't smart enough to sort out truth from lies and educate themselves and get it, unfortunately. But I still can't tolerate it. I bet a lot of people have suffered similar losses in recent years.

 

[seaurchin]

I am not a supporter of banning books, however I am a supporter of informed consent. Parents have a right to know what their kids are learning, what books they will be reading etc. We do pay for this “free” public education via taxes so this disclosure seems reasonable.

I totally agree with that. Children aren't adults and it's ridiculous to not protect them from things they are too young to understand. I recall having bouts of nightmares more than once as a child from being exposed to inappropriate things secondhand, from overhearing things, movies and books.

At the same time, there are some scary people latching onto that and conflating it with a whole other agenda. And creating that chaos and confusion is deliberate. We care about our kids; they do not.
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I should bow out for now so as not to dominate the thread but will continue to read as time allows.

 

[Slickk]

@seaurchin so disappointing, your response is exactly the reason I wasn’t going to respond.
However, to conflate banning pron material in elementary schools to Na*is is egregious and insulting. This is why we can no longer have civil discourse.
If a child struggling with their sexuality, even at a young age, I hardly think lending them a book with pics of b-jobs etc is appropriate. This is a hill I am willing to die on…as an educator of 20+ years.
Peace.

 

[seaurchin]

@seaurchin so disappointing, your response is exactly the reason I wasn’t going to respond.
However, to conflate banning pron material in elementary schools to Na*is is egregious and insulting. This is why we can no longer have civil discourse.
If a child struggling with their sexuality, even at a young age, I hardly think lending them a book with pics of b-jobs etc is appropriate. This is a hill I am willing to die on…as an educator of 20+ years.
Peace.

Civil discourse, really?! As an educator, you should do better at reading what was actually posted rather than falsely try to demonize and put up straw arguments, in an obvious attempt to "be right" rather than share ideas or learn.

My response wasn't "egregious and insulting" in any way and I believe it was quite accurate. I also followed it up with a source to better explain my position. I stand by it. You not liking it or not being educated about it or not wanting to hear it or whatever, does not make it "uncivil"--- or untrue.

I also did not say anything even remotely like what you are trying to pin on me- that's the only thing here that's "egregious and insulting." Disgusting, in fact.

You did say you didn't plan to respond in the first place- after posting your own opinion- then you respond by flinging mud where it's not deserved and not listening whatsoever. So you should probably stop ending your posts with "peace," at the very least. That is not peaceful or nice and I would have expected better of you.

 

[Slickk]

They are trying to dismantle our public education system and turn it into their indoctrination, just like the Nazis did. All planned out, one step at a time. Taking dirty books out of elementary school libraries and giving school vouchers so people "have a choice" is what they want us to believe they are doing. If they said the truth, very few people would go along with them.

This is your quote. ^
Post #26

 

[seaurchin]

This is your quote. ^

Yes, it is and as I said, I stand behind it. Again, please read before responding. This is getting old.

See "the rise of fascism in the US" if you want to see the larger picture here, though it seems pretty obvious you do not. The only hope for our country's future is if enough people do get it.

 

[Un_Petit_Rayon_de_Soleil]

I was going to give my opinion as a response to this thread, but have decided it is headed in the wrong direction. I do think it is important to look at thoughts from teachers in our education system and to also research for your own information. There are good points by both sides and it varies. There is truth to both sides. It is sad that opinions cannot be shared without the snark.

 

[seaurchin]

I was going to give my opinion as a response to this thread, but have decided it is headed in the wrong direction. I do think it is important to look at thoughts from teachers in our education system and to also research for your own information. There are good points by both sides and it varies. There is truth to both sides. It is sad that opinions cannot be shared without the snark.

I am not sure who you are referring to here. If it's me, I apologize if anything I said made you feel like you could not post here. I think I have been plainspoken here but it is not my intention to be "snarky."

I was also a public school teacher, as well as a parent. I did not see any of this alleged "pron for ten-year-olds" in the school library, nor did I ever run into any issue with it at all. Which is not to say it doesn't exist anywhere, ever but...

However, I did attend a school board meeting in a major southern city the other day and listened to 150 parents, community leaders, attorneys and people speaking on behalf of teachers and principals (who are no longer allowed to voice dissenting opinions without losing their jobs, when they are the ones who see what all goes on firsthand).

Some of the high school libraries have been completely removed, and replaced with detention rooms. That is way beyond any issue with children seeing filth. It is the next step imo.

The entire school board that was elected by the people was illegally replaced with appointees who do not answer to the parents or residents or taxpayers. That is highly alarming, yet it's right out in the open, with more ramped up reasons given, that may have some grain of truth but highly twisted with an agenda imo.

They are making unilateral decisions, answering only to higher-ups in politics and with statistics that were shown over and over again to be false.

There's more but this is getting too long already.

It is getting worse. The whole alleged "just not wanting pron in children's school libraries" thing has worn thin and become much more clear for what it actually is, to many who previously supported it. The voucher system is the next step, in my and many other parents/teachers/concerned citizens opinions, in dismantling our public education system.

And, of course, they always have a very loud and righteous "reason" for everything, every step of the way. There's really no substitute for looking at the larger picture to see all these steps in the education system and elsewhere in context ("the rise of fascism in the USA.")

Fascists do not want an educated population.

They chip away at rights, starting with the easiest: women, minorities, LGBTQ+, immigrants, etc. And then they come for those who so eagerly helped them disenfranchise everyone else.

And yes, I and many of the others there did come to these conclusions by studying the typical steps fascists AKA nazis make in taking over a democracy and noticing the obvious parallels, on many fronts at once, and not just with the schools.

My interpretation of events is mine of course and not even close to the last word on anything.

But what I would hope do to in any discussion about it is raise the knowledge level and not stick to an opinion with "here's my personal opinion and if you say otherwise, you're automatically being offensive and also want young children to see pictures of BJs."

@Slickk , I do think you owe me an apology.

All JMO, naturally.

 

[monarch64]

I have a 6th grader and when all this started I went straight to the local bookstore and began buying books from banned lists. They are available to my child when and if she decides she would like to read them. She attends a private Catholic school so she’s already been exposed to lots of the stuff some folks want to shield their children from anyway, just by having to attend mass.

ETA: I would also like to state that I love Margaret Atwood’s sentiment of go ahead and ban the book, it just makes people want to read it more. Like…don’t people who love banning things (who are also typically xtians) remember that whole story about forbidden fruit? Makes me laugh every time I think about how stupid and backwards it is.

 

[Slickk]

Yes, it is and as I said, I stand behind it. Again, please read before responding. This is getting old.

@seaurchin you compare people who think differently than you to Na*is and you, ‘stand behind it,’ and I am the one who owes you and apology? That’s…interesting.
Bless your heart. You have a nice evening.

 

[seaurchin]

...

@seaurchin you compare people who think differently than you to Na*is and you, ‘stand behind it,’ and I am the one who owes you and apology? That’s…interesting.
Bless your heart. You have a nice evening.

Nowhere did I "compare people who think differently than me to Nazis." I compared actual fascists AKA nazis, to nazis, because that's what they are. People in power, not posters on here, obviously. But I think you already know that.

If you think fascism isnt real and right on top of us, you are really out of the loop of what's going on in our country.

Imo your knowledge level on this issue is very low but you simply can't give up on trying to be right anyway, with sh*tty little tactics like trying to twist my words.

Everything I said is right where I left it for anyone to see, so just stop. SMH

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

It's a real concern.

Control of women's bodies have been lost. Miscarriages treated as criminal(1800 women charged). Healthcare denied to women and children. Targeting of trans and LGBTQIA.

Books banned and 'burned' metaphorical and actual; especially if they have any hint of gay sex or exploration, minority experiences or accurate historical representation.
It's the targeted progressive persecution that it more at issue. It is by degree. It's multifaceted and pronged to one source.
One.
It's all the same people spearheading these efforts.
They are using us, they are using our love, to help them do it.

The last time this happened on this scale millions ended up losing their lives.

Stanford lecturer explores the rise of book bans, from Nazi book burnings to school board races | Stanford GSE

Efforts to ban books in the United States have surged at a rate the American Library Association calls “unprecedented,” with attempts currently at their highest level since the organization began tracking them 20 years ago.

ed.stanford.edu

The Forgotten History of the World's First Trans Clinic

The Institute for Sexual Research in Berlin would be a century old if it hadn’t fallen victim to Nazi ideology

www.scientificamerican.com

Bigotry and Nationalism Launched Nazi Book Burning

The first attack on books by Nazis started with LGBT and “un-German” books.

action.everylibrary.org

I don't need someone else who hasn't read many of the tomes they ban to tell me what my child can and cannot read or have access to, what is appropriate or to dictate mores.
That is my job.

We've seen this before.
The question we must ask is am I being a 'Good American' like these people want?
Nobody is calling anyone anything, it's a warning about how easily good intentions can be warped to fit agendas. It's used to control.
And it is ALL connected.

 

[LilAlex]

Y'all circle around with words like these books are R rated or something?
Well are they?

This was in response to my post but I don't know what this means.

 

[kenny]

 

[Ella]

One and only warning folks, no namecalling. Keep this discussion civil or take it elsewhere please.

 

[missy]

Ultimately, regarding children, it should be up to the parents IMO and not the school boards or the government.

I do not think any books should be "banned" rather access should be at the discretion of the parents.

I think it is a slippery slope when access is limited by other entities.

IMO this is a decision only the parents should be responsible for and not anyone else.

This country (and world) is on a downward spiral.

And if something does not change I do not have a lot of hope for the future. For anyone.

Take away some of our freedom and watch as more and more of our individual rights are affected.
So even if it is not affecting you now (not a woman worried about reproductive rights; not a parent worrying about what books your child may not read, etc)....
Eventually it will affect everyone. Mark my words.

It is all connected
And believe me when I say, this is *not* (IMO) about good intentions. It *is* about control
Pure and simple

 

[stracci2000]

When I was a kid about 12-14 years old, I read all the books on my mom's bookshelf that a young girl should not read!
All kinds of popular novels of the early 70's, which were very graphic, as you might imagine. Some that I clearly remember were Valley of the Dolls, The Reincarnation of Peter Proud, Helter Skelter, The Godfather, the Boston Strangler, etc.
She also liked Gothic romances, which were *very* detailed, but so much fun to read!
I even read "Everything You Always Wanted to Know About S*x"
I also read all her Cosmo mags, too.

I don't believe it damaged me in any way. I just knew way more than all the other kids at school!!

 

[Matata]

And believe me when I say, this is *not* (IMO) about good intentions. It *is* about control

I think control is the vehicle through which fear and ignorance operate and those are the driving factors in so much of what we're seeing. Regarding books specifically, it is the stories of marginalized people, of minorities, of those who do not fit the cis paradigm that certain groups are trying to erase. Fear and ignorance of the other has always, imo, been the Achilles Heel of humanity and we're currently doing a bang up job of spreading one and fostering the other.

 

[Slickk]

@stracci2000 I’m absolutely thrilled when I see a youngster reading …it’s not the reading material I don’t agree with, it’s the illustrations.
If I posted a spread from one particularly opposed graphic novel here on PS, I’m sure it would be deleted as what it is.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

When I was a kid about 12-14 years old, I read all the books on my mom's bookshelf that a young girl should not read!
All kinds of popular novels of the early 70's, which were very graphic, as you might imagine. Some that I clearly remember were Valley of the Dolls, The Reincarnation of Peter Proud, Helter Skelter, The Godfather, the Boston Strangler, etc.
She also liked Gothic romances, which were *very* detailed, but so much fun to read!
I even read "Everything You Always Wanted to Know About S*x"
I also read all her Cosmo mags, too.

I don't believe it damaged me in any way. I just knew way more than all the other kids at school!!

This reminded me that growing up we had this huge bible, I still have it but it is falling apart. Anyways, I would constantly look at the pictures because they had fully nude people in them lol! Didn’t read any of it just thoroughly enjoyed the pictures.

 

[Matata]

When I was about 7 yrs old I stumbled upon my uncle's adult magazines and National Geographics both of which were hidden in a table in the living room. I distinctly remember that my first thought was "huh" and decided that the naked people pictures in the Nat Geos were more interesting.

 

[monarch64]

@stracci2000 I’m absolutely thrilled when I see a youngster reading …it’s not the reading material I don’t agree with, it’s the illustrations.
If I posted a spread from one particularly opposed graphic novel here on PS, I’m sure it would be deleted as what it is.

Which novel are you referring to?

 

[seaurchin]

I recall that a new English teacher I had back in high school assigned the class to read The Bell Jar by Sylvia Plath, which if anyone doesn't know, involves suicide (I don't know how it was portrayed, but if it glorified suicide, then I'd definitely agree with the parents). Anyway, one or more parents complained to the principal and the teacher changed the assignment to On Walden Pond.

Of course, things like that can happen now and then, whether in the classroom or with what's available in the school library. Judgement calls must be made occasionally and, by definition, those are somewhat subjective.

So, it was quickly resolved but it was not made into a widespread, overblown political crusade and used as an excuse to take away yet more rights and vilify minorities, LGBTQ+, religions other than Christian, keep necessary information from minors who may be in dire need of it and so on, as is being done now.

The former is common sense. The latter is just another step in the fascist agenda. They are two very, very different things. It's dangerous when those two scenarios are conflated, and they are being deliberately conflated (by those in power, NOT individuals here) imo.

An integral part of that is vilifying those who dissent, twisting it into them being individuals who want pron in elementary school libraries and other extreme character slurs, to detract from the issue. We are at late stage democracy and it is terrifying.

As I've mentioned before here, I personally recommend anyone who is interested to look up "the rise of fascism in the USA." We need as many people as possible to learn what the big picture is here, or we're all doomed imo. It's in line with what happened in Germany, Italy, Russia, Hungary, etc., unfortunately.

 

[ShinyPink]

My daughter read Memoirs of a Geisha when she was 13 or so. She chose it for a class project. OMG, was I dying! The assignment was to choose examples of various literary terms. Well, when the book is about a kept woman/lover, you can imagine the quoted sections of the book she used....

 

[Slickk]

Which novel are you referring to?

Gender Queer. A Memoir. Again, it’s not the subject matter nor the written word that I oppose for young minors, it’s the illustrations.

 

[Un_Petit_Rayon_de_Soleil]

Gender Queer. A Memoir. Again, it’s not the subject matter nor the written word that I oppose for young minors, it’s the illustrations.

Was this book in elementary schools or high schools? I have to admit to having never seen it. I schooled my kids at home so we didn't follow the bans closely. I know some books on the list make no sense but I can see how this particular book could be an issue. I looked it up and it is pretty graphic.

 

[Slickk]

@HS4S I’ve seen it on the younger students’ shelves and displays.

 

[Matata]

@HS4S I’ve seen it on the younger students’ shelves and displays.

In school libraries? The reading age is listed as 18 and up so if it's available in schools to younger kids without parental permission, someone(s) at the school aren't doing their job. If it is mis-displayed in bookstores, public libraries, etc., then anyone concerned about it should inform the owner/employee etc. so it can be located appropriately.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

There needs to be informed consent by parents.

My informed opinion on that book:

Does this book belong in primary? No.
It's 14+.
The NEA already recommends that it not be in elementary schools.

The NEA didn't recommend the ‘Gender Queer’ book for elementary schools. They recommended it for educators - Poynter

Several Fox News hosts have falsely claimed the National Education Association recommended the graphic memoir for young students.

www.poynter.org

It would be important for me as a parent to show them there is no shame in any of this. Questions are good. Accurate information is even better.

I don't have any issue with this being in a high school library.
So, for a teen, I think it's an exploration in consent and self empowerment we almost never see. It also covers sexual awakening and the issues of self identification and worth. These are important universal lessons no matter how an individual identifies.

It's teens that are more aware of their bodies, educated and have agency that wait to have sex than the teens who are taught nothing but abstinence. It also is a proven reducer of teen pregnancy as well as protection from disease and abuse.

I'm glad my state is keeping it on shelves in high schools.

Why Are Schools in Maine Keeping GENDER QUEER on Shelves, Despite Challenges? A Case Study in What Makes a Difference

Maine has seen eight challenges to GENDER QUEER so far, but only one school has banned it. Why are schools in ME keeping it?

bookriot.com