Beginning the hunt.

[greenpang]

Hi everyone,

My partner and I are beginning our search for the "perfect" (to us) engagement diamond. (Nothing to do with V-day! Just a coincidence.) The wealth of information on this forum has been a tremendous help already, so I thought I would introduce myself.

We have been planning on a target engagement month of July 2013 for a few years and figured we would need several months to prepare, so we're in the Research Phase now.

We've read about diamonds extensively and will soon move onto Phase 2... but we could use some guidance for what Phase 2 should be.

I think our next goal is to determine the exact thresholds of what we're seeking. We have a pretty good idea of what the various ratings "look like," but we'd like to compare them in person to feel comfortable definitively aiming for diamonds that fit some basic criteria.

We are going to be the MOST picky about cut, but we need thresholds for the easy Cs too.

(Btw, we're going for a round brilliant solitaire. It's the diamond that matters; not the ring.)

Current guesses:
Carat: Want significantly sizable, but not too obnoxious. I have very tiny fingers (size 4!), so guessing 1.35-1.6.
Color: Want no discernable color whatsoever. Guessing G or better.
Clarity: Want no discernable inclusions whatsoever. Guessing VS2 or better.

Then the cut. We want super super super super ideal cut! Fascinated by the physics of light reflection. Have been playing around with dimensions and proportions of sample diamonds and the HCA. Want to see the interactions between crown/pavilion angle in person, as well as the perceptive effects of depth, table size, girdle thickness, etc. No idea on whether our personal preference will fall in line with BIC, TIC, or FIC.

So, the question is, do you guys have advice on figuring out preferences for all of these aspects when we look at diamonds in person? We were thinking of going to a bunch of jewelry stores (where we will not be purchasing), but we're not sure how to approach the sales interaction such that the salesperson is amenable to showing us the diamonds we want to see and allowing us to do a full comparison on so many dimensions.

Thanks in advance!

 

[kenny]

For clarity, and especially color, see diamonds in person to discover YOUR comfort zone.
Just make sure you ONLY look at diamonds graded by AGS or GIA since you can trust their color and clarity grades to be much more accurate grades than those issued by other labs.
G VS2 are in a range that many people settle on.
However, some people are perfectly fine with much lower color and may even prefer a warmer-looking diamond, while some are sensitive to color and feel a DEF is worth the higher price.
It's very personal so don't let anyone tell you what's 'right'.

Yes, cut is the most important of the 4 Cs to how beautifully the diamond performs with light.
Finding a well cut diamond is super easy if you are looking for the modern round brilliant shape.
Just plug into the HCA four numbers from the grading report, Depth%, Table%, Crown Angle and Pavilion Angle in degrees.
https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca
Reject diamonds that score over 2.0.

For those that score under 2.0 get an Idealscope pic.
https://www.pricescope.com/tools/ideal-scope
Compare to this chart:
http://www.ideal-scope.com/1.using_reference_chart.asp


The reason you need an Idealscope pic is the crown and pavilion, angles you plugged into the HCA are each the average of 8 angles around the diamond.
If all 8 angles happen to be identical everything would be fine, but some of the 8 may be high but the others low so they AVERAGE out to a nice average number.
An Idealscope pic would reveal this wonkiness.

If you are looking for a shape other than round get an ASET pic and post it here for feedback.
http://www.ideal-scope.com/1.using_ASET_scope.asp

 

[greenpang]

Thanks! This all makes sense.

Do you have suggestions for how to approach the interaction with the in-store salesperson to facilitate the opportunity to adequately compare in-person appearances of diamonds -- for us to get a feel for our comfort zone for all of these properties?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Very sincerely, you are unlikely to find a jewelry store that happens to carry ANY super ideal cuts, much less a selection to choose from, unless you choose Good Old Gold in NY, WhiteFlash in Houston, or an Infinity dealer. I never saw a single AGS Ideal cut (which isn't necessarily super ideal) or even a GIA XXX (which often will not fall into the super ideal category) when I shopped locally. Well, I take that back because I did go see one Hearts on Fire diamond just to see what a hearts and arrows stone looked like, and maybe you can find that. Just keep in mind that they are crazy overpriced compared to comparable hearts and arrows stones available elsewhere. I have bought diamonds from both Good Old Gold and WhiteFlash long distance, and I sent for stones and sent them back if it wasn't what I wanted.

I personally favor G VS1 for a ring, but I think the G-H VS2 range is a very good place to aim.

 

[greenpang]

I didn't expect to find the quality of cut I am seeking in a jewelry store, but I still would like to be able to see the impact of various angles/dimensions among lower-quality cuts in person -- to hopefully extrapolate from that when envisioning the impacts of angles/dimensions among super ideal cuts.

Even cut aside, we still need to see comparisons of color and clarity in person to determine where we are aiming for those. (And carat weight, I'd like to get a general idea of the "sizes." I realize weight does not equal size and that other properties of the diamond affect its perceived size, but we just want a general idea.)

The question I am trying to ask is: Are there suggestions for handling the interactions with salespeople? I imagine in these silly jewelry stores, they are probably going to start by asking us what our "price range" is and assume we don't know what we're talking about. I don't even know what to say for price range because price is not an issue (and the stores will be marked-up anyway). And we're trying to assess quality, not to just look at diamonds that may fit within some specific inflated price range for any number of reasons.

How should we approach this so that we are able to do what we want to do? What we want to do is:
- View diamonds of various color grades, clarity grades, and carat weights side by side to determine our preferences there.
- View diamonds with various crown/pavilion angles and other dimensions to be able to see and compare, in person, how these factors vary with the diamond's light performance. We realize it is unlikely that any diamond we see in a jewelry store will perform exceptionally well, but it could still be informative to assess the impact of cut quality among less-than-ideal cut diamonds.

I am trying to ask what we should convey to the salespeople such that they will provide us the opportunity to compare characteristics of diamonds as we wish to do -- instead of treating us like average consumers who don't know what we're talking about and just feeding us a whole bunch of BS.

Also, would it be useful to buy an Idealscope? Do they have those in jewelry stores? If not, we might be interested in bringing our own so that we can get a feel for what a diamond's light performance looks like and how that relates to its appearance in an Idealscope. (Even if none of the diamonds perform exceptionally well.)

 

[kenny]

You don't really have to 'handle' salespeople, unless you are sensitive, thin skinned, fearful, or suffer from a crippling case of low self esteem and/or niceitis.
IOW, it's not about handling them; it's about handling YOU.

Just call ahead and tell them you want to, as you say, "View diamonds of various color grades, clarity grades, and carat weights side by side to determine our preferences."

Definitely see for yourself live what clarity grades look like to the naked eye and under a 10x loupe or microscope.
See for yourself what color grade you are comfortable with.
A better-cut diamond will return more brilliance and help conceal color, but only in the top view not a side or off-axis view which is how we usually see our diamonds.
Again only look at GIA or AGS stones, so you don't waste your time developing your preferences looking at incorrectly-graded stones.

Get the diamonds away from the darned jewelry store lights that can make a lump of coal look beautiful.

Hold a large white piece of paper over the diamond to block the lights or take the diamond to the window.
Put the diamond up side down on a piece of paper folded 90 degrees; place the diamond against the fold and look into the pavilion.
This is the most cruel and revealing way to view a diamond's color.

You wrote, "I didn't expect to find the quality of cut I am seeking in a jewelry store, but I still would like to be able to see the impact of various angles/dimensions among lower-quality cuts in person -- to hopefully extrapolate from that when envisioning the impacts of angles/dimensions among super ideal cuts."
I think this is futile since the four numbers you put into the HCA interact in a way so complex you need the HCA's math algorithm
to produce a cut evaluation.
IOW a particular table% may be horrible when combined with certain values of the other 3 numbers, but the same table% may be optimum with other values of the other 3 numbers.
There ARE ranges you can memorize, but the HCA is the best tool for how all 4 numbers interact.

If you want to see a well cut round locally see if anyone carries brands like Hearts on Fire, Solasfera (though Solasfera is a 10-section diamond instead of the standard 8-section), Lazare Kaplan, Eightstar, Crafted by Infinity.
Go to the websites for these brands to see if you are near any dealers.
If near NY, go to Good Old Gold to view super ideal rounds.
If near Dallas Tx visit Whiteflash to see an ACA and Brian Gavin Diamonds to see his super ideal rounds.

As to interactions with sales people ... just play the game.
Go along with it; no big deal.
They want a price? Give them a price.
Don't take it too seriously or personally.
You are there to find your color and clarity preferences, and are under no obligation to buy.
They are not going to stab you for walking out and they are not going to cry all night.
The more you do this the more comfortable you'll become.

Yes buy an Idealscope and take it in with you, also buy that battery powered lighting unit the diamond sits on and a 10x loupe.
I did.
A couple stores did get all huffy.
So what, I don't have a thin skin.
I just proceeded with my learning.

Who knows, you might even find a store with good cut at good prices on GIA/AGS stones.
Unlikely, but it may happen.
If they ask you to leave because they can't bully you and you are not ignorant, nothing lost, go to the next store.

 

[yssie]

Well goodness, if you go into a "silly jewellery store" expecting uppity, pushy, ignorant salespeople you're pretty much guaranteed to get exactly that! The not-uppity not-pushy not-ignorant ones will sense the arrogance the moment you walk in the door and you can bet they won't want anything to do with you

I've had some bizarre and uncomfortable experiences but I've also had some great experiences w/ people who are only too happy to find a customer who actually wants to talk rock! I once walked in to get a band polished and wound up spending over an hour chatting about HoF with a lovely young woman who was more than happy to pull out stones and scopes - I didn't buy anything, she had my band dealt with as a courtesy, and now when I go I ask specifically for her.


Ditto Kenny, stick to GIA and AGSL stones for colour and clarity, and re. numbers - don't bother trying to extrapolate things while you're there, just look at lots of stones in a variety of lighting types, pick out the ones you like most and the ones you like least, and write down the (exact) carat weights and report numbers and we can help you afterward if you want. And if your SA asks for a price range just give him one - he might have some helpful input...

If you get an IS make sure you fully understand how to use it before you go, otherwise you'll wind up wasting a lot of time on observations that don't necessarily mean anything.


Seriously. Check the disdain at the door.

 

[greenpang]

Kenny and Yssie, thank so much for the advice! Definitely useful information for the store visits. I'm not thin-skinned, so you're right, Kenny, I won't worry about "handling" the salespeople. And I agree with the importance of a good attitude, haha; I wouldn't want to act like a prick!

We'll just be direct about what we want to see, and now I feel armed with even more great information about how to evaluate the rocks. Thanks again.

 

[kenny]

Keep in mind every diamond of a given clarity grade will not look the same, especially the lower you go in clarity.
Inclusions vary a great deal within the same clarity grade.

VS1 and above will be eye-elean maybe 99% of the time, and even then it's just an eagle-eyed young person with super vision who will spot an inclusion without magnification.
VS2 is nearly always eye-clean.
SI1 is sometimes eye-clean.
SI2 is occasionally eye-clean.
Only rarely will you find an eye-clean I1, but beware of mechanical integrity issues like scary large cracks, AKA feathers.

People seeking the largest diamond for their budget may spend a LOT of time looking for that needle in a haystack diamond that is acceptable but with a low-clarity grade.

Color is quite different than clarity.
White diamonds within the same D-Z GIA color grade will not look very different to 99% of humans.
In fact many people cannot even detect the difference between adjacent color grades, especial near the colorless end of the scale.

All FYI.