Best red stone - Rubellite or Rhodolite?

[PrecisionGem]

The interesting thing about comparing Rhodolite and Rubelite tourmaline, is they typically behave just opposite of each other. The garnets look their best in incandescent light, and close up and loose saturation in florescent light, where the tourmaline are the opposite. Most of the red and pink tourmaline look the best in daylight and florescent light, but close up and get a bit muddy in incandescent light. There are some very fine red tourmaline that hold up well in incandescent however, but they still to me look the best in natural light.

So the answer to the original question may come down to how you intend to wear the stone? These new CDF bulbs that are being sold to save energy make just about every stone loose color.

 

[Arkteia]

Cellentani, they all are nice but your asscher rubellite is something!

 

[iLander]

The interesting thing about comparing Rhodolite and Rubelite tourmaline, is they typically behave just opposite of each other. The garnets look their best in incandescent light, and close up and loose saturation in florescent light, where the tourmaline are the opposite. Most of the red and pink tourmaline look the best in daylight and florescent light, but close up and get a bit muddy in incandescent light. There are some very fine red tourmaline that hold up well in incandescent however, but they still to me look the best in natural light.

So the answer to the original question may come down to how you intend to wear the stone? These new CDF bulbs that are being sold to save energy make just about every stone loose color.

This is very helpful, Gene! Can you tell us about red spinel in various light sources?

Also, are the red tourmalines irradiated or not? I've heard conflicting stories. . .

My husband put the new LED diode bulbs in a couple of closets and they seem to pull blue flashes out of my red garnet and tone down the red to a deep burgundy.

I hate those LED bulbs, they are so harsh! I call them "alien autopsy bulbs".

 

[T L]

Actually, my best pink tourmalines look amazing in incandescent lighting, so yes, there are exceptions to the rule.

 

[rosetta]

cell, your stones (and photos) are amazing as usual.

i keep wanting to pop your stones in my mouth like candy and suck....

i've said too much.

 

[LD]

Unfortunately it's becoming much more common to irradiate Rubellite (and I suspect a host of other gems that previously were considered to be free of treatments - with the exception of heat of course). In the UK there was a TV shopping channel selling vast amounts of Rubellite (some very nice) BUT incredibly expensive, and these were all irradiated.

My own personal opinion is that irradiation is less invasive because once done, it's done. It doesn't need re-doing and doesn't alter the stability of the gemstone. Fracture filling is treating a gemstone that has fractures - if not handled correctly the filling can be de-stabilised and may need re-doing, can catch a jeweller unaware so their handling of the stone causes issues and a host of other issues. Fracture filling is also a means of making a gemstone look better but, for me, it's far more invasive.

 

[T L]

Unfortunately it's becoming much more common to irradiate Rubellite (and I suspect a host of other gems that previously were considered to be free of treatments - with the exception of heat of course). In the UK there was a TV shopping channel selling vast amounts of Rubellite (some very nice) BUT incredibly expensive, and these were all irradiated.

My own personal opinion is that irradiation is less invasive because once done, it's done. It doesn't need re-doing and doesn't alter the stability of the gemstone. Fracture filling is treating a gemstone that has fractures - if not handled correctly the filling can be de-stabilised and may need re-doing, can catch a jeweller unaware so their handling of the stone causes issues and a host of other issues. Fracture filling is also a means of making a gemstone look better but, for me, it's far more invasive.

That's an interesting point of view. I feel fracture filling (not lead glass filling) can be reversed, so to me it's less invasive, but it's interesting to hear the different view points on this. I do agree that filling can give a jeweler a host of other issues, whereas an irradiated gem is a permanent and often safe treatment (using electron bombardment, not neutron bombardment).

 

[PrecisionGem]

This is very helpful, Gene! Can you tell us about red spinel in various light sources?

Also, are the red tourmalines irradiated or not? I've heard conflicting stories. . .

Most of the red spinels, at least from Tanzania, look more red in incandescent light, and get a bit lighter and more pink in daylight.

I'm not aware of the tourmaline coming directly from Nigeria being treated.

 

[T L]

This is very helpful, Gene! Can you tell us about red spinel in various light sources?

Also, are the red tourmalines irradiated or not? I've heard conflicting stories. . .

Most of the red spinels, at least from Tanzania, look more red in incandescent light, and get a bit lighter and more pink in daylight.

I'm not aware of the tourmaline coming directly from Nigeria being treated.

To your second sentence, I heard that is true, but how do you know if the dealer really did get it from Nigeria? Unless you saw them dig it up, then you have to assume the worst. I did ask on another site if there were inclusions specific to Nigerian rubellite, but I did not get an answer.

I think fine red spinels look very red in sunlight due to the strong red fluor. On a cloudy day, they may look more pink.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Usually the stones are coming directly from Nigeria. I kind of doubt the the Brazilians are shipping stones to Nigeria, and then Nigerian's are selling them. As with anything, there is some level of trust required.

 

[cellentani]

I am keenly interested in continuing this discussion, but for the sake of preserving HotPozzum's thread to find lovely red stone, I'll start a new thread. I hope Gene, TL, and anyone else interested will join in!

 

[Arkteia]

My feeling is, if a stone can be treated in principle, it is likely treated the same way in all locales. I do not know how exactly heat treatment is rendered, but I imagine that it does not need a muffle furnace . So it is doable.

Several vendors here mentioned heating tourmalines and tanzanites by themselves to achieve the desired color. I assume it can be done by Nigerians, too.

 

[T L]

As with anything, there is some level of trust required.

That's my issue, I don't trust because I know even the most trusted sellers can be duped.

 

[T L]

My feeling is, if a stone can be treated in principle, it is likely treated the same way in all locales. I do not know how exactly heat treatment is rendered, but I imagine that it does not need a muffle furnace . So it is doable.

Several vendors here mentioned heating tourmalines and tanzanites by themselves to achieve the desired color. I assume it can be done by Nigerians, too.

Supposedly they are not irradiating stones from Africa because that continent doesn't have the nuclear accelerators to do this. All those machines are primarily in South America (aka Brazil). However, I don't see why they wouldn't just ship African stones to Brazil to nuke them.

It's interesting to speculate, but like you Crasru, if a particular treatment can be done to a particular gem species, I don't rule it out because it came from a "safe" locale. Rubellites are also heat treated too, aside from nuking, so that's another treatment to consider if treatments do bug you.

I have some rubellites that have needles and silk (supposedly Nigerian), and I do believe natural color rubellites also contain those same inclusions, but can ones that are heated and/or nuked also contain them? Are there any inclusions unique and natural to a non treated rubellite. I would really like to know, and that may help alleviate some of my worries/issues I have with these stones.

 

[cellentani]

My feeling is, if a stone can be treated in principle, it is likely treated the same way in all locales. I do not know how exactly heat treatment is rendered, but I imagine that it does not need a muffle furnace . So it is doable.

Several vendors here mentioned heating tourmalines and tanzanites by themselves to achieve the desired color. I assume it can be done by Nigerians, too.

Supposedly they are not irradiating stones from Africa because that continent doesn't have the nuclear accelerators to do this. All those machines are primarily in South America (aka Brazil). However, I don't see why they wouldn't just ship African stones to Brazil to nuke them.

It's interesting to speculate, but like you Crasru, if a particular treatment can be done to a particular gem species, I don't rule it out because it came from a "safe" locale. Rubellites are also heat treated too, aside from nuking, so that's another treatment to consider if treatments do bug you.

I have some rubellites that have needles and silk (supposedly Nigerian), and I do believe natural color rubellites also contain those same inclusions, but can ones that are heated and/or nuked also contain them? Are there any inclusions unique and natural to a non treated rubellite. I would really like to know, and that may help alleviate some of my worries/issues I have with these stones.

I opened up a new thread to discuss all this stuff: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gemstone-treatments-discussion-and-questions.153299/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gemstone-treatments-discussion-and-questions.153299/[/URL]

But regarding the needles and silk in rubellites: if the needles are rutile, I would imagine that the heat required to dissolve them is higher than a tourmaline can withstand, but I would sure like to know for sure.

 

[LD]

The Rubellites I spoke about earlier (in abundance and from a TV shopping channel) were Nigerian. They were irradiated. I would think that Nigerian stones can make their way to Thailand and various other places - I'm pretty sure they have irradiation capabilities there. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Brazilian Rubellite find was mined out several years ago so potentially this hasn't been treated?

Edit: My apologies, the ones I am referring to are from Mozambique not Nigeria. Interestingly, on the TV channels enhancement page it lists nearly all Tourmalines as natural, heated or irradiated.

 

[PrecisionGem]

I was referring to tourmalines that were purchased directly from Nigeria. I don't think the stones are being nuked in Nigeria.
The Nigerian red tourmaline can be heated, and it is heated at a pretty low temperature, nothing that would heal anything. It is usually done around 300 to 500 degrees. Heating is done to lighten the stone, and often overly dark stones can be heated to turn them pink. The better quality Nigerian stones with the vivid red are not heated, as heating would lighten the stone and loose value. I'm sure Nigerian stones in poorer quality are bought by the Thai's and treated with various methods to improve the color.

From my own experience, I have turned darker red Nigerian tourmaline with a brown mask, to pink tourmaline with a brown mask. The brown doesn't go away. Heat them too high, and they go colorless. Heating rough most often produces stones that fracture all over the place. It's best to heat a stone after it is cut.

 

[T L]

My feeling is, if a stone can be treated in principle, it is likely treated the same way in all locales. I do not know how exactly heat treatment is rendered, but I imagine that it does not need a muffle furnace . So it is doable.

Several vendors here mentioned heating tourmalines and tanzanites by themselves to achieve the desired color. I assume it can be done by Nigerians, too.

Supposedly they are not irradiating stones from Africa because that continent doesn't have the nuclear accelerators to do this. All those machines are primarily in South America (aka Brazil). However, I don't see why they wouldn't just ship African stones to Brazil to nuke them.

It's interesting to speculate, but like you Crasru, if a particular treatment can be done to a particular gem species, I don't rule it out because it came from a "safe" locale. Rubellites are also heat treated too, aside from nuking, so that's another treatment to consider if treatments do bug you.

I have some rubellites that have needles and silk (supposedly Nigerian), and I do believe natural color rubellites also contain those same inclusions, but can ones that are heated and/or nuked also contain them? Are there any inclusions unique and natural to a non treated rubellite. I would really like to know, and that may help alleviate some of my worries/issues I have with these stones.

I opened up a new thread to discuss all this stuff: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gemstone-treatments-discussion-and-questions.153299/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gemstone-treatments-discussion-and-questions.153299/[/URL]

But regarding the needles and silk in rubellites: if the needles are rutile, I would imagine that the heat required to dissolve them is higher than a tourmaline can withstand, but I would sure like to know for sure.

Tourmalines are heated at low temps, unlike corundum, so their rutile survives (which is another bummer for detection). For example, there's lots of heated Mozambique copper bearing tourmaline with needles.

 

[GliderPoss]

Hello again! Seems I lost my last long reply so I'll try again...

First huge thanks for all your replies and advice. I really appreciate it and it has helped narrow down the choice significantly.

I cannot afford a red spinel of a decent size therefore I didn't include that in my search. Also hae never seen any pure red zircons?

BUT after picking my tongue up of the floor after looking at Cellentani's asscher rubellite I think I've been won over!

I will keep on with my search particularly for Rubellite or Umbarlite and let you know what I find.

Thanks again.

 

[jstarfireb]

Keep in mind that rubellites tend to have a lot of inclusions (I think they're a Type 3 gemstone, like emeralds). Rhodolite is a Type 2, so it's harder to find eye-clean rubellite than rhodolite.

I also prefer the more purplish-leaning pink of the rhodolites that you can see in Cellentani's pic.

 

[GliderPoss]

Re: Best red stone - Rubellite or Rhodolite? UPDATED

Think I may have found what I am looking for! It's from John B at Gemrite.

http://www.gemrite.com/cubecart/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=269

Details:
Stone: Umbalite garnet (Rhodolite)
Weight: 2.89 cts.
Clarity: VVS
Dimensions: 8.31x 8.28x 5.45mm
Design: Barion square cushion
Origin: Umba Valley, Tanzania
Treatment: None
Cut by: John B.
Notes: This is a beautiful stone with great brilliance and color. The stone shifts color depending on the light source. Red to a magenta.
Price: $260.00

What do you all think? Does this look the right level of saturation - not too dark but not too pink....

 

[T L]

Re: Best red stone - Rubellite or Rhodolite? UPDATED

Think I may have found what I am looking for! It's from John B at Gemrite.

http://www.gemrite.com/cubecart/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=269

Details:
Stone: Umbalite garnet (Rhodolite)
Weight: 2.89 cts.
Clarity: VVS
Dimensions: 8.31x 8.28x 5.45mm
Design: Barion square cushion
Origin: Umba Valley, Tanzania
Treatment: None
Cut by: John B.
Notes: This is a beautiful stone with great brilliance and color. The stone shifts color depending on the light source. Red to a magenta.
Price: $260.00

What do you all think? Does this look the right level of saturation - not too dark but not too pink....

Looks a bit too dark in tone for my taste, and not very saturated, sorry.

That looks like an ordinary rhodolite to me, and a bit expensive for such material. Maybe the photo stinks. John has a good return policy if you want to check it out.

 

[GliderPoss]

Re: Best red stone - Rubellite or Rhodolite? UPDATED

OK, so John has kindly sent me a few daylight pics of the stone so i can see it's performance outside in sunlight and shade.

Now what do you think? Still too dark? Seeing more purple tones in sunlight.......

I like it a lot but it seems perhaps it is expensive for that material? I don't really know what I should expect to pay for this stone.....

EDIT: Sorry for huge pics!

 

[chrono]

Very well cut but still too dark for my taste. Have you seen the red side of the stone yet? How does it look indoors?

 

[GliderPoss]

Thanks for the feedback. After careful consideration I agree it may be too dark!

Another one I particularly like is this one from Barry:

http://www.acstones.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=57&idproduct=2913

Tanga Garnet 3.26 cts. 8.9 x 6.7 mm emerald cut. This emerald cut garnet has a slightly purplish red color and is medium/dark in intensity. It is very suitable for a man's ring. It is better than eyeclean, with minor rutile inclusions. Price: $195.00

Again it could be way too dark but I love the cut. Thoughts?

 

[LD]

I love the cut, colour and size but is it the colour you're looking for? I don't see red. I see pinkish/purple. I don't know how accurate Barry's photos are though.

BTW I have found John's photos to be incredibly accurate and he doesn't try to photograph the gems so that they look their best. He photographs them as they are. I bought an Umbalite from him and when I compare his photos to mine, it's very difficult to see any difference at all. Hope that helps.

 

[baby nurse]

I think that tanga garnet of Barry's is really nice and I find his pictures to be pretty accurate. I love the cut. I don't have enough experience to say if that's a desirable color for a tanga garnet but it's definitely pleasing.

 

[GliderPoss]

Re: Best red stone - Rubellite or Rhodolite? UPDATED

Ok rather delayed update on this thread but I just bought this:

http://www.litnon.com/index.php?page=viewgem&id=8343

Love the cut and size and with the current exchange rate, even the price is great. It's very RED! Seems to have less purple tones that the others I was looking at. Can't wait to receive it and will let you know what it's like IRL. Plan to send it to Daniel M for 3-stone ring with Danurite sides.

 

[Fly Girl]

Re: Best red stone - Rubellite or Rhodolite? UPDATED

Ok rather delayed update on this thread but I just bought this:

http://www.litnon.com/index.php?page=viewgem&id=8343

Love the cut and size and with the current exchange rate, even the price is great. It's very RED! Seems to have less purple tones that the others I was looking at. Can't wait to receive it and will let you know what it's like IRL. Plan to send it to Daniel M for 3-stone ring with Danurite sides.

Those Tanga emerald cut garnets are a regular at the Litnon site. I got mine a couple of years ago, and like other rhodolites, it darkens quite a bit in low light. However, it looks great in daylight. Here is mine with a red day lily that is just about the same color. I had my local jeweler put it into a 14k yellow gold Stuller ring setting.

I hope you love yours.

 

[GliderPoss]

Oooh that is lovely FlyGirl! Thanks for showing me yours, nice to be able to see it once its set. Mine will also be in a yellow gold setting. Seems a little more pink/purple IRL so it should be interesting to see if mine is the same........