Blue sapphire for engagement ring. SOS!

[chrono]

The latest picture still shows a dark toned sapphire and I don't know if it is just the lighting. Unfortunately there is no PM function here so we cannot ask privately. I agree that the only question to follow up on is the tone, described as technically as possible, not using subjective and romanticized terms such as Kashmir-like.

Africagems: are you okay with this being heated? It says so in the Description tab. Perhaps the stone is tilted, hence the culet looks a touch off centered. A bit dark too but without a reference background, I don't know how accurate it is.
TopGems: shows promise but I would want to see it in a more neutral background. The black background deepens the tone and perceived saturation.

 

[MillerAnn]

My suggestion is to try to find a local jeweler to work with. Most of them that I have dealt with are more than willing to pull stones in from suppliers so that you can actually choose something that is in front of you. I know some whole sale guys that go to the mines twice a year, and they said that new sapphire rough has gone up exponentially this year. You might get lucky and find a jeweler locally that has had one for a while and is ready to make a move on it, especially at a lower price than what new rough is being cut at.

 

[devaughnb]

Attached are another couple pictures of the original Sapphire i posted. To my eye, i think it still shows dark.

The vendor is saying that AGL would probably rate the stone an 80 - 85.

Comment:
"Sometimes the vivid blue colors with GRS can be very black wth blue flashes. The stone is not blackish, but also not medium blue. It is a rich color so dark in low light, but very nice in office style light."

What would you consider the sweetspot wrt tone? 70 - 75?

 

[SB621]

Have you contacted Jeff White ? I personally think the sapphires he brings in our world's better then what you have been posting which are way to dark for my taste. Does he have anything for you?

 

[devaughnb]

My suggestion is to try to find a local jeweler to work with. Most of them that I have dealt with are more than willing to pull stones in from suppliers so that you can actually choose something that is in front of you. I know some whole sale guys that go to the mines twice a year, and they said that new sapphire rough has gone up exponentially this year. You might get lucky and find a jeweler locally that has had one for a while and is ready to make a move on it, especially at a lower price than what new rough is being cut at.

Probably a good idea. I am in Montreal but will be visiting NYC next week. Anybody know a jeweler who keeps many sapphires on hand in either of those two cities?

 

[devaughnb]

Have you contacted Jeff White ? I personally think the sapphires he brings in our world's better then what you have been posting which are way to dark for my taste. Does he have anything for you?

Yes, i have. Sent an email and called. They may be away on vacation because i am yet to get a call back. I'm thinking having him cut a stone for me may be the best course of action.

 

[slksapphire]

agl trade ideal tone is 70-80, or 75 if you are looking for a point number. to me, 80-85 is too dark.

and tone has absolutely no relationship to hue (the grs vivid blue). they are two independent characteristics

 

[slksapphire]

for colored stones, i generally would NOT recommend working with a local jeweler UNLESS he specializes in colored stones and does pretty significant volume in such stones. a jeweler may be willing to call in 4-5 stones at most if you are a serious buyer but i have not found anyone willing to do much more than that, especially if you are picky. and the process can take a very long time as the supply of stones that you are looking for is likely pretty limited (everywhere). the only exception to this is if they are willing to work with you on calling in specific gems from pala, etc.

other than the internet route, i would also recommend going to a large gem show if you can get to one. then you can see many (like 10+) stones all at the same time. i found this tremendously helpful from a learning perspective, too.

 

[SB621]

Have you contacted Jeff White ? I personally think the sapphires he brings in our world's better then what you have been posting which are way to dark for my taste. Does he have anything for you?

Yes, i have. Sent an email and called. They may be away on vacation because i am yet to get a call back. I'm thinking having him cut a stone for me may be the best course of action.

Was this the email you used?

[email protected]


I would not recommend any local place. They charge more for sapphires becuase they have to ship them in for you to see etc and typically don't have a good selection.

 

[corundum_conundrum]

It took me about 10 days to get a reply from Jeff White when I sent him a few emails and called him a few times several months ago. He's very pleasant when he manages to get in touch, in my experience.

I guess he just gets seriously behind in emails.

Jeff White might be a great resource if you are not in a rush. He has produced cut some fantastic medium-blue sapphires.

Did you send Gary Braun an email? He likewise has a great eye, is a great cutter, and recently returned from Sri Lanka with a several very nice sapphires.

To answer your question about tone--I think most people on this board prefer stones that don't "black out" in incandescent light as the vendor seems to be suggesting that this last stone does. They will usually darken or shift color in incandescent lighting, but you still want to see some color. I have heard it said that a slightly silky sapphire can be both fairly dark in tone and still show plenty of color indoors. And yet not everyone likes the "sleepy" look that a slightly silky stone can have, and some might like the more whimsical look of a true medium tone blue to the stormier look of a darker blue.

So in my opinion, its not so much a matter of an "ideal" tone number as it is a matter of whether the stone still shows color indoors when it comes to deciding how dark is too dark.

This is one random guy's assessment--others may disagree and think that a certain tone should be aimed for, but I think its a case by case type situation. Just make sure that you specify that you are looking for something that shows some nice color indoors and does not "black out"...

 

[devaughnb]

I'll give Gary a try as well. I have not reached out to him yet.

Thanks for all of the advice guys. I'll have to look at gem shows and see if any are nearby, but im thinking that going to a cutter may be the way to go. Or hopefully, one of the additional two rounds i posted work out... I'm still waiting on more pics.

Seems to me that the tone of that stone i originally posted is truly too dark. Especially for the price, i wouldn't want to compromise on the color. I'd rather go the heated route than do that. BTW, the vendor was Kashmir blue. Real nice guy, but don't think i want to buy it with such a high likelihood of returning it. Most of his stuff is kashmiri stones which are out of my price range.

 

[colorchange]

>>> its been very hard to even find round sapphires at all outside of gemsny and natural sapphire.

That's because most nice round cuts have been bad ovalish cuts in a previous live (before they leave Asia).
It might be an idea to buy a nice stone with a bad cut and get it recut.

>>> how different are retail and individual broker prices?

Quite significantly different. But you shouldn't assume much on the internet is "broker" price. Maintaining a website & answering the many many requests from end clients takes lots of time and is something they need to charge for.

 

[chrono]

I have had little to no success in working with a local jeweller to find the right sapphire. The best the local jeweller is able to do is to pull up stones from Palagems, which any online vendor can do as well, likely at lower cost too. Some are able to get sapphires from a different source but the options are limited and the quality lacking. Given that you specifically want an unheated round, I think you are most likely to get what you want by contacting a lapidary, which you have already done so.

KB's comment is not reassuring and I agree with their assessment that GRS' vivid can fall into the dark tone range. I like medium dark tone for sapphires but not when it is too close to tipping into dark. "Very black with blue flashes" tells me that this particular sapphire is too dark for the trade ideal and isn't my preference either. The reason why "very black" isn't the trade ideal is because the sapphire should still show a very blue colouration (not black) under lower light conditions.

I disagree that tone has absolutely no relationship to saturation (I believe SS meant saturation and not hue) though. Although independent, there is a slight overlap. If the tone is too light, saturation can only be so strong (max out at a certain range or level). If saturation is too strong, tone can end up being overly dark (but this situation is uncommon). There is also a slight overlap in relationship between tone and hue but less so; blue is almost always darker than yellow.
http://www.palagems.com/quality_4cs.htm

 

[devaughnb]

Thanks again guys.

So Chrono, does that suggest that the more blue the tone, the more saturation can be achieved?

Also, how much would re-cutting a stone run me?

I absolutely love the color of this stone, but don't like the oval. This is actually one that you all pointed out. (first row, far right)

http://www.gemfix.com/images/stones/sapphire_blue/sapphire_blue_1124.jpg


Here are some pics i got from another vendor. I think it looks pretty good, but am not sure if some of this transparency is normal.

 

[devaughnb]

And more pics...

Any thoughts on this one? Frankly i have a hard to assessing as i am not sure what is effects from angle and what is natural. The stone is untreated and said to have light inclusions.

You all are life savers by the way.

 

[chrono]

Such a simple question yet not easy to answer. Blue is a hue, the same way one describes red, yellow, green, etc. as a hue. The purer the hue (no green or yellow modifier), the more desired and valued the blue sapphire. A touch of violet is often preferred. Tone refers to the darkness and lightness. Saturation is the strength of colour. For the most part, saturation is independent of tone. There are medium light blue sapphires that are very saturated and there are dark blue sapphires that are poorly saturated, therefore I caution your thinking that the darker the tone, the more saturated the sapphire will be.

A recut will vary depending on the size of the stone and design as well as the lapidary's fee. To recut a sapphire that looks that nice carries too much risk that range from colour zoning becoming apparent to the stone losing most of its saturation (becomes much lighter in tone and grayer in saturation). In addition, you are double paying - paying to cut away good material to get a stone that is smaller and worth much less than the original. To make the oval a round, you could lose up to 1/3 the carat weight, presuming all other factors remain the same and that is a BIG if.

The "new" sapphire has quite some zoning going on. Even when I account for the slight angle in the first picture, the colouration is still too uneven throughout.

 

[devaughnb]

Great info thanks.

I actually really like the look of that stone you posted. Didn't think i'd like something that light in tone.


Too bad, i was hopeful on that last gem. It was 3.5 cts, burmese, untreated, round, and right in my price range.

 

[peacechick]

I just read about the JA New York trade show happening later this month. It's trade only so members of the public can't go. Don't suppose you know anyone in the trade to go hunt for you?

 

[devaughnb]

I've got a few people looking out for me at this point. So hopefully one of them is going...

 

[devaughnb]

Apparently Van Craeynest can source sapphires for me as well. They seem quite knowledgable in sapphires and have a cutter name Hans in Geneva. Has anybody dealt with him before?

The link below is to a ring they did for someone else, but apparently it was one of a pair that were cut at the same time from the same rough. It was for earrings.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/show-me-some-van-craeynest.79472/page-36']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/show-me-some-van-craeynest.79472/page-36[/URL]

Any thoughts on that sapphire? Photos start at the bottom of page 36. Photos continue on page 37. I should get some additional pics in soon from VC.

At this point im still thinking Jeff White is my best hope.

 

[devaughnb]

A recut will vary depending on the size of the stone and design as well as the lapidary's fee. To recut a sapphire that looks that nice carries too much risk that range from colour zoning becoming apparent to the stone losing most of its saturation (becomes much lighter in tone and grayer in saturation). In addition, you are double paying - paying to cut away good material to get a stone that is smaller and worth much less than the original. To make the oval a round, you could lose up to 1/3 the carat weight, presuming all other factors remain the same and that is a BIG if.

BTW, i sent a pic of that sapphire from gemfix.com to VC and the guy said he was sure it was photo shopped. He thought it was just too perfect!

I really do need to convince my girlfriend that ovals are ok

 

[devaughnb]

Hello, below are pics of another sapphire i'm investigating. Its heated and is selling for about $4,500.

Vendor description:
I would grade this gem as a violetish Blue hue, tone 5.5, saturation 4.5....clarity grade VS due to very very small remnants of dissolved "silk" (fine rutile needles) seen in the microscope under high magnification. As I noted on my website, when one first sees the gem, the concept of violetishness is not what comes to mind. This gem is not inky. You see the astounding brilliance and the saturation of the gem along with the strong hue...blue being primary, violetish being secondary in every sense of the word...it is only very slight.

More pics to follow as well.

 

[devaughnb]

More pics here taken in different sunlight. Thoughts? It looks to be cut very different from others i've seen. I do like the cut though. Ive got a few more pics too, but maybe a bit redundant.

 

[devaughnb]

Oh well, might as well show them all.

 

[FrekeChild]

Does she like concave faceting? I don't (like, I abhor it), so I wouldn't be happy to receive this stone in an engagement ring. Concave cutting has a very love it or hate it thing going on. Do you think she will feel strongly either way? It's something to consider!

 

[Jesusfreak]

Devaughnb,

My first bit of input would be to entertain other shapes. I first started in your position, stuck on rounds because the girl showed me rounds and liked them. I mentioned about them naturally coming out as ovals or cushion shapes because of the better ability to preserve their weight and she was open to ovals. I don't know your position and didn't have much time to read through the entire thread but I will assume that you have an open conversation about them with her. I did it very indirectly and showed a VERY slight interest in buying a stone and only once or twice when we went to weddings when the thought was in the air.

I have yet to see any rounds of decent size and color that are reasonably priced for their size. Most of them are usually 2k/Carat+ and above and don't even resemble the best color. This is speaking of unheated stones because I was just as stubborn about getting an unheated stone. It took me some time and I really am thankful that I was patient because it really paid off for the both of us.

I would stress seeing stones in person to know what you are looking for. Pictures are going to show the stones when they look their absolute best and you will not be able to see them in your daily atmosphere with the lighting that is the norm for you. I would encourage you to spend a little money receiving stones to get a feel for what you are looking at. In this way you will see unheated stones in your face and better understand what you are looking for. I got a stone that was light and "Transparent" per GIA and I was not happy with its lack of saturation. Some like lighter stones because they might have a little more fire than the darker stone but if you are looking for a BLUE Sapphire I cannot stress how important it is to see them face to face to get a better judgement. Yes it is difficult to send out that kind of money and hope for the best but their are a lot of vendors with good reputations on here that people have come across to make you feel more comfortable. A lot of these vendors use this website and understand that their reputation is more vital than making a few dollars once.

Some other key points:

What kind of face size are you looking for? I looked at Diamonds before we had an interest in The Blue Sapphire and when i did my search I went to retail stores that are usually overpriced but I got a good idea for what I was going to see when it comes to size. With that, you can determine face size, and the square MM face size that you are looking for. You can 10 different stones with the same carat weight that face up different and have very different character. I could be wrong in saying this but I believe that depth doesn't have as much weight in a blue sapphire as it does in a Diamond. In a diamond their needs to be perfect proportions to present the fire and scintillation that everyone looks for in a well cut Diamond. With that being said, you might be able to sacrifice a little depth for a better face size.

What kind of setting are you looking for?

They can bring up the bill so if you want something extravagant it can bring up the bill quickly. I thought about setting it in a simple gold solitaire and having her choose the setting after with the solitaire being a memorable piece but I ended finding a channel-set with the stone in it and the size was even right!

As you can see I have spent some time doing this search but I only feel right to give back to others that are searching and "pay it forward".

I hope I didn't go on too many tangents. Any questions I will do my best to help. I was in your shoes and its good to see that more people are seeing the beauty in a blue sapphire.

Hope that wasn't too much of a mouthful for you. lol

Take Care and wish you the very best in your search!

God Bless

Ulysses

P.S I would highly recommend contacting Dana from Master Cut Gems and checking out his website at Mastercutgems.com. He has a great selection of blue sapphires but he might not have a round of this size. He has a good selection of ovals and he usually gets stones. Contacting him is the best way to know whats in the mail or what he is getting ready to post on his website.

Hope I was helpful.

 

[FrekeChild]

What kind of face size are you looking for? I looked at Diamonds before we had an interest in The Blue Sapphire and when i did my search I went to retail stores that are usually overpriced but I got a good idea for what I was going to see when it comes to size. With that, you can determine face size, and the square MM face size that you are looking for. You can 10 different stones with the same carat weight that face up different and have very different character. I could be wrong in saying this but I believe that depth doesn't have as much weight in a blue sapphire as it does in a Diamond. In a diamond their needs to be perfect proportions to present the fire and scintillation that everyone looks for in a well cut Diamond. With that being said, you might be able to sacrifice a little depth for a better face size.

I'm not sure I understand what the above is trying to say, but I think what he's getting at is that the density of corundum is higher than that of diamond. So a round sapphire will have to be more like 1.25-1.5ct to "face up" the same size as a 1ct diamond (6.5mm). White diamonds typically look larger than their colored counterparts because they reflect so much white light. Its like when you're outside on a bright sunny day and you look at something white - the white object looks super white because it's reflecting the sunlight that's hitting it. Colored stones reflect light too, just not the same way.

I'm not really sure what all of the depth talk is about? I think he's talking about cut and making sure that the cut doesn't have a ton of weight on the bottom/pavilion so that the stone has good face up size.

 

[apropos]

I don't think he is referencing density.

What he is probably referring to is that for sapphires the cut depth is not as important as in a diamond from the point of view of brilliance. In a RB diamond most folk want a bright white stone - i.e. with maximum brilliance - and the depth plays a big part in this.

In a sapphire however brilliance is superceded usually by colour - a sapphire with a brilliance of say 80% is well cut, but in a diamond it's not quite optimum. A lighter toned sapphire can also have its colour amped up a notch with a deeper cut.

 

[chrono]

BTW, i sent a pic of that sapphire from gemfix.com to VC and the guy said he was sure it was photo shopped. He thought it was just too perfect!

I guess Andrew should take that as a compliment. Although his picture isn't the most accurate, he does not photoshop or misrepresent his stones deliberately.

As for the concave cut faceting, it seems to be either a love it or hate it camp. The sapphire itself looks to be very beautifully coloured. Does she like that style though? You won't get the same same flash as a traditionally cut stone - it will be pinpoint and dare I say, static? Even as you move the sapphire around, the facets don't seem to scintillate (on / off) as it is moved. It just seems "on" all the time, which is what I mean by static. On the positive note, this style rarely blacks out and you won't get large areas of darkness or extinction. If I'm guessing correctly, this same lapidary also does the traditional flat faceting, so you can ask if he'll cut you one in such a design with material of like colouration and quality.

 

[Jesusfreak]

I don't think he is referencing density.

What he is probably referring to is that for sapphires the cut depth is not as important as in a diamond from the point of view of brilliance. In a RB diamond most folk want a bright white stone - i.e. with maximum brilliance - and the depth plays a big part in this.

In a sapphire however brilliance is superceded usually by colour - a sapphire with a brilliance of say 80% is well cut, but in a diamond it's not quite optimum. A lighter toned sapphire can also have its colour amped up a notch with a deeper cut.

You nailed it. Sorry for the communication error. I didn't mean literal weight. I meant like how value it will carry.

Thanks

Ulysses