Breastfeeding- how long is too long?

[anchor31]

I think North American society is really weird and upside down about breastfeeding. When you're pregnant and a new mom, you get bombarded with the "Breast is Best" slogan, advocates telling you that you *have* to BF exclusively, formula is poison or "risky behaviour" and that you "didn't try hard enough" if you don't succeed, etc. On the other hand, a bunch of people get their knickers in a knot over breastfeeding in public and extended breastfeeding. How about we let women make their own choices for what they believe is best for themselves and their children, and support them instead of judging them? Tuckins or anyone else here - This rant isn't directed to you, it's just how I feel about the issue.

meresal - About your neighbour, do you know if the mother wanted to BF at all? When I was pregnant I very much wanted to (and succeeded for a few months), and I would have told DH to shove it where the sun don't shine if he'd decided by himself that J would be formula fed. Not because I think formula is bad; J has been FF'ed out of necessity for the last 8 months and he is very much thriving, but I don't believe the father should be the one deciding if his wife should breastfeed or not. Now, if he's supporting his wife's decision to FF, that's another story.

 

[meresal]

I think North American society is really weird and upside down about breastfeeding. When you're pregnant and a new mom, you get bombarded with the "Breast is Best" slogan, advocates telling you that you *have* to BF exclusively, formula is poison or "risky behaviour" and that you "didn't try hard enough" if you don't succeed, etc. On the other hand, a bunch of people get their knickers in a knot over breastfeeding in public and extended breastfeeding. How about we let women make their own choices for what they believe is best for themselves and their children, and support them instead of judging them? Tuckins or anyone else here - This rant isn't directed to you, it's just how I feel about the issue.

meresal - About your neighbour, do you know if the mother wanted to BF at all? When I was pregnant I very much wanted to (and succeeded for a few months), and I would have told DH to shove it where the sun don't shine if he'd decided by himself that J would be formula fed. Not because I think formula is bad; J has been FF'ed out of necessity for the last 8 months and he is very much thriving, but I don't believe the father should be the one deciding if his wife should breastfeed or not. Now, if he's supporting his wife's decision to FF, that's another story.

You know, anchor, I'm really not sure... and she was not at the party, so I can't say for sure. I was just going off of what he said, and considering how *open* he was being with a complete stranger, I got the impression that he/they chose to formula feed over the option of BF'ing... or else he would have shared with me the reason why.

I also don't think forumla is bad. I stopped BF'ing completely at 7 months, and C has formula for his 3 bottles a day. I was just shocked by the choice, as I have never heard anyone (who couldn't already BF for some reason or another) actually chose to forumla feed.

 

[Pandora II]

I'm still breastfeeding Daisy every 3-4 hours day and night and she is 19 months. I happily breastfeed in public and I have no intention of weaning her until she is ready to do it herself. If that means she is still feeding at age 4-5 then so be it - although I'd hope it was just morning and evening by then!

The WHO recommendation is 2 years - and that is not just for developing countries. The antibodies that the child gets from the mother are extremely useful and it's a great source of nutritious calories.

It's not usual to feed for more than a year in the UK but it's not particularly unusual either. A woman at the baby group I go to is more than happy to feed her 3 year-old quite openly and no-one thinks it's odd at all.

In many cultures very extended breast-feeding is the norm - Mongolia for example it's not unusual for 9 year-olds to still have the odd nip!

Daisy tend to ask for 'Nom, nom' and will pull at my top if she wants to feed so I suppose that is verbally asking. I get so many positive comments from people when I feed her in public and have never had anyone say something negative.

To be honest I don't think it anyone's business how long someone breast-feeds and I certainly don't find it distasteful.

As far as a father's right to how his child is fed - sorry, but I am the mother, nature gave me a pair of 'mammary glands' and hormones that stimulate the production of milk after birth and I will put them to their biological use whether he likes it or not. I think a woman does have the right to a bigger say than the father - in the same way that I don't think a man has the right to any say in whether or not a woman choses to terminate a pregnancy.

ETA: I don't see anything wrong at all in choosing to use formula whether it's through choice or because you have issues with breast-feeding - not enough milk/medications/health issues etc , (I did mixed breast/formula with Daisy for the first 5 weeks) and it is a wonderful thing that there is that option today as many babies died in the past because of a lack of a proper breast-milk substitute and it gives mothers a genuine choice - but I must say that I have never heard anyone say that they are choosing formula as it's more nutritious than breast-milk as there is a huge amount of research out there than shows that breast-milk is by far the best nutrition wise, especially as it also contains antibodies and changes depending on the needs and age of the child in a way that formula cannot.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I don't have any good logic behind my feeling that I am the one to make the decision about feeding my baby, but I still feel that way. Equality be darned. My son was fed off my body for the first nine months of his life in utero, and then he was sustained off my body solely for the next 6 months, and then he was sustained off my body in large part for another 6 months. I felt tremendously connected to him through all that, and I think my investment over that period does give me a bigger say It is not logical, of course, but that is how I feel.

As to the asking to nurse issue, it is funny but I felt like that too before I had a toddler. Now, I can see how many toddlers beenfit a lot from it. Hunter weaned himself at 12 months once he was not getting nursed all day long, and was never a comfort nurser -- gimme the food and then let me run! That was his motto -- but lots of other kids have a different relationship with nursing and it is a great comfort tool. I have a close friend who's child is the same age as Hunter and dealing with some major health issues, and though the child is 23 months old and mostly weaned, when she was really sick she started nursing again full force. The nurses and doctors were so releaved to discover that she was still nursing occassionally, as they know it is the best comfort for a baby recovering from surgery etc. She can ask to nurse quite clearly, and she benefits from it, and her mom is really glad to be able to do it because it works like nothing else she tried. I know it is an extreme example, but even on a more scaled down level, when you child is sick at night or scared or cannot sleep, it is a tremendous comfort. Sometimes I do wish that Hunter still nursed, so I had that tool in my arsenal.

 

[Pandora II]

Very true - if Daisy is unwell she literally nurses all night-long. Exhausting for me but at least she is sleeping while she does!

Daisy has always been a very quick feeder but she does like to hang out for comfort some of the time. She's normally done in 15 minutes max though.

If she falls over or hurts herself or gets worried about something she will instantly come running over and want to nurse even if it's just for 30 seconds or so. It's also a wonderful way of getting her to sleep or to keep her quiet during speeches, weddings or any other time I don't want her running riot!

 

[megumic]

While I completely agree that BFing is best, I think my schtick with BFing past one year is that breast feeding starts to become more than just a way to bond and provide nutrients. I don't care for the idea of my child controlling me by requesting to breastfeed. As Pandora mentions (just as an example) her LO comes by sometimes just for 30 seconds of comfort. I don't know that I would feel comfortable with my child toddling over, latching on for a quick minute, and running off -- I want to keep my bra an shirt on, or what if I'm in the middle of something? Maybe it doesn't actually play out like this, but I don't want to be an on-demand milk machine. Does anyone ever feel that way?

I don't have kids yet, so my assessment may change entirely once I have my first. Is the above completely off and inaccurate?

 

[KimberlyH]

I intend to breastfeed beyond 1 year. Our daughter will not be given cows milk and I simply don't see weaning in 3 months as viable, considering she nurses 8+ times a day still. I plan to have her weaned by age 2, but won't be concerned if it happens before or a bit after that.

That being said, because of social norms, I would not be comfortable feeding much later than 2. I feel part of my job as her mom is to help her fit in, within reason, and at the point when her peers would notice and think it strange it will have gone on to long for me.

I know a mom who tandem fed three children, the oldest was 7 when he stopped. As a child -- I am 2 years older than him -- I found it very odd, with no influence from my parents.

Megumic, I am not at the same stage as Pan, but at any point when feeding is clearly for comfort a mother can say no and help comfort the child in another manner. Breastfeeding, for us, is part of our relationship at this stage, I can control when it happens, excepting when my daughter is hungry.

ETA: But comfort nursing doesn't start at age 1. I've been my daughters' paci since day 1. She rejected every one and latched on to me like a suction cup.

 

[Dreamer_D]

While I completely agree that BFing is best, I think my schtick with BFing past one year is that breast feeding starts to become more than just a way to bond and provide nutrients. I don't care for the idea of my child controlling me by requesting to breastfeed. As Pandora mentions (just as an example) her LO comes by sometimes just for 30 seconds of comfort. I don't know that I would feel comfortable with my child toddling over, latching on for a quick minute, and running off -- I want to keep my bra an shirt on, or what if I'm in the middle of something? Maybe it doesn't actually play out like this, but I don't want to be an on-demand milk machine. Does anyone ever feel that way?

I don't have kids yet, so my assessment may change entirely once I have my first. Is the above completely off and inaccurate?

Like any other aspect of your child's beahviour, you can set limits as you see fit. If you don't want kiddo doing that, then you just teach them when is the appropriate time for nursing and when you would instead prefer to offer a hug and a kiss. I don't think it would be that hard, I set the same types of limits with Hunter in other domains. Mom is the boss is my mantra

 

[waxing lyrical]

Ditto DD and Cara. I was *just* in a debate about this topic. I've been in so many over the years.

I'm sort of 'meh' about the matter. I don't really bat an eye these stories. They're intended to stir debate and create controversy. My girls breastfed for 16 months. My goal with dd1 was 18 months. I was a little sad it ended at 16 months, but understood our cross-country move probably affected her schedule and I was newly pregnant with dd2. She was only nursing three times a day by then. My goal with dd2 was 24 months and I was very, very sad and disappointed when she stopped. Following my husband coming home from deployment we moved back to base. I guess she lost interest. I tried for over a month to see if she would go back to nursing, but nope. Soon after she stopped I got pregnant with ds1. My plan was to breastfeed for at least 24 months with him. Ds2 will be 12 months on the 26th and he still nurses 6+ times a day and I'm going to try my best to keep it going for at least 24 months. If he stops early I will pump, which I hate to do, but I'm determined to make it to 24 months this time. I'd have no problem going to 3-3.5 years.

It's time folks get with the times. The research/science is quite clear that breastfeeding remains beneficial past infancy. That isn't the real issue. The real problem is that it's socially abnormal in many industrialized nations.

AAP on extended breastfeeding:

The American Academy of Family Physicians recommends that breastfeeding continue throughout the first year of life and that "As recommended by the WHO, breastfeeding should ideally continue beyond infancy, but this is not the cultural norm in the United States and requires ongoing support and encouragement. It has been estimated that a natural weaning age for humans is between two and seven years. Family physicians should be knowledgeable regarding the ongoing benefits to the child of extended breastfeeding, including continued immune protection, better social adjustment, and having a sustainable food source in times of emergency. The longer women breastfeed, the greater the decrease in their risk of breast cancer." They also note that "If the child is younger than two years of age, the child is at increased risk of illness if weaned." (AAFP 200

AAP

AAP

A Natural Age of Weaning

Breastfeeding: Biocultural Perspectives

More comprehensive list

 

[Mara]

People should BF as long as they want to. Or not at all. They're the Mom.

In our BF class the teacher pointed out that in NA it's the norm from like 6mo-1year on average. But I think the WHO says til 2 years is recommended now?

She pointed out in Europe that the norm is more like 1-2 years. And that in many other more countries, the norm was longer, like 3+ years. And in SOME areas, if food was limited and your income was nil or small-- you would do it as long as you could because that might be the best source of nutrition your kid could hope to get.

That said, I think it would be visually a little odd to have a 5 year old hanging on your boob while out at the Mall of America... if there was a way to express milk and give a 3/4/5/6 year old a cup every day, I think it would be awesome. The benefits are definitely there. But unfortunately most women's bodies don't work like that... just one cup a day for 5 years after the first.

 

[Pandora II]

While I completely agree that BFing is best, I think my schtick with BFing past one year is that breast feeding starts to become more than just a way to bond and provide nutrients. I don't care for the idea of my child controlling me by requesting to breastfeed. As Pandora mentions (just as an example) her LO comes by sometimes just for 30 seconds of comfort. I don't know that I would feel comfortable with my child toddling over, latching on for a quick minute, and running off -- I want to keep my bra an shirt on, or what if I'm in the middle of something? Maybe it doesn't actually play out like this, but I don't want to be an on-demand milk machine. Does anyone ever feel that way?

I don't have kids yet, so my assessment may change entirely once I have my first. Is the above completely off and inaccurate?

I don't think it does become more than a way of bonding or providing nutrients. Daisy is still 70% breast-fed - she's not particularly interested in solid food on the whole, although she'll polish off an adult size portion of rice and curry even if she's just had a full milk-feed.

I don't intend to give her cow's milk and so it is important that she gets those nutrients from breastmilk - plus my husband is immuno-compromised and so my antibodies reduce the chance of her catching illnesses from him and of her catching illnesses from others and exposing him to those germs.

In 19 months she has had one fever and 2 very mild colds which she shook off in a couple of days.

I am not controlled at all - in fact it is the opposite, I can control her! If I don't want to feed then I just say 'No, nom nom, later' and remove her hand, or I stand up. It's pretty similar to a kid asking for biscuits - it's not always convenient to say yes and they may well throw a tantrum if you say no but you get to choose if they get a biscuit or not.

I tend to wear sweaters or polo-neck tops that are designed for feeding (but are tops I'd happily wear even if I wasn't) and I just fold my bra back and she latches on - no skin exposed and takes a couple of seconds max. She'll pull on my sweater but doesn't pull it up. The only time she'll ever do that is at night as she has learnt to do that without either of us waking since she was a couple of months old.

I suppose I have opted for fairly intensive parenting:
- we co-sleep (which I love, she's so warm and cosy to snuggle up to, smells lovely and there is nothing better than waking up in the morning to a grinning imp saying 'Hi hi Mummmeeeee!'.) DH and I get a lovely lie-in at weekends unlike most of our friends as she rarely wakes before 9. I get a full-nights sleep and I'm not sleeping with one ear open wondering if she's going to wake-up or start crying.
- I'm big on baby-wearing - Daisy's feet barely touched the ground until she was 6 months old - and I still put her in the sling a lot when we're going out, and sometimes if I'm in the kitchen and she wants to watch me cook I'll stick her on my back so she can see what I am doing.

For me it all just seems like the natural thing for me to do. I would be going against my instincts to parent in any other way and so I don't ever feel like a milk-machine! I have occasionally looked at cows in fields with suckling calves - or even the sow in the farm at the bottom of the road who I saw suckling her 7 newborn piglets - and felt a certain empathy (and been glad I have one and not SEVEN!). The thing I do miss is the oxytocin high I used to get in the early months - Daisy used to lie there after a feed looking milk-drunk and I would have feel like I'd drunk a couple of really good glasses of wine... DH used to walk in and see me lying there with a big stupid smile and tell me to stop ODing on the hormones!

It is very different once you have a child - I didn't think I would make the parenting choices I have, wasn't planned at all, I just went with what felt right to me. I do remember looking at her once when she was 6 month old and thinking wow, my body has 'grown' this child in every way.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

I think North American society is really weird and upside down about breastfeeding. When you're pregnant and a new mom, you get bombarded with the "Breast is Best" slogan, advocates telling you that you *have* to BF exclusively, formula is poison or "risky behaviour" and that you "didn't try hard enough" if you don't succeed, etc. On the other hand, a bunch of people get their knickers in a knot over breastfeeding in public and extended breastfeeding. How about we let women make their own choices for what they believe is best for themselves and their children, and support them instead of judging them? Tuckins or anyone else here - This rant isn't directed to you, it's just how I feel about the issue.

meresal - About your neighbour, do you know if the mother wanted to BF at all? When I was pregnant I very much wanted to (and succeeded for a few months), and I would have told DH to shove it where the sun don't shine if he'd decided by himself that J would be formula fed. Not because I think formula is bad; J has been FF'ed out of necessity for the last 8 months and he is very much thriving, but I don't believe the father should be the one deciding if his wife should breastfeed or not. Now, if he's supporting his wife's decision to FF, that's another story.

I wanted to respond to the mixed messages. It seems like when mothers fail at BF they are blamed, but they are often set up to fail. Only 4% of babies in the US are born in hospitals that the WHO considers "breast friendly." Some of those criteria include having good lactation support, and not accepting free formula. The hospital I rotated in only had 2 lactation consultants and they only worked about 1/2 of a day. The babies were born, given their shots (which should be done after the first BF is initiated), and than given to the mother, and everyone leaves her to figure out how to feed this baby. When things go bad, the staff just hands her a pre-filled bottle which was given to them by a formula company to calm the mother down. Of course, early introduction of the bottle before the mother's milk has come in has a huge negative impact on successful breast feeding. Than they go home, and they have formula samples from their OB/GYN. So when they are tired and frustrated, they don't even have to go to the store, they just grab the sample.

Until we change these practices on a systems level, it is going to be very hard to improve our breast feeding rates.

 

[Pandora II]

I think North American society is really weird and upside down about breastfeeding. When you're pregnant and a new mom, you get bombarded with the "Breast is Best" slogan, advocates telling you that you *have* to BF exclusively, formula is poison or "risky behaviour" and that you "didn't try hard enough" if you don't succeed, etc. On the other hand, a bunch of people get their knickers in a knot over breastfeeding in public and extended breastfeeding. How about we let women make their own choices for what they believe is best for themselves and their children, and support them instead of judging them? Tuckins or anyone else here - This rant isn't directed to you, it's just how I feel about the issue.

meresal - About your neighbour, do you know if the mother wanted to BF at all? When I was pregnant I very much wanted to (and succeeded for a few months), and I would have told DH to shove it where the sun don't shine if he'd decided by himself that J would be formula fed. Not because I think formula is bad; J has been FF'ed out of necessity for the last 8 months and he is very much thriving, but I don't believe the father should be the one deciding if his wife should breastfeed or not. Now, if he's supporting his wife's decision to FF, that's another story.

I wanted to respond to the mixed messages. It seems like when mothers fail at BF they are blamed, but they are often set up to fail. Only 4% of babies in the US are born in hospitals that the WHO considers "breast friendly." Some of those criteria include having good lactation support, and not accepting free formula. The hospital I rotated in only had 2 lactation consultants and they only worked about 1/2 of a day. The babies were born, given their shots (which should be done after the first BF is initiated), and than given to the mother, and everyone leaves her to figure out how to feed this baby. When things go bad, the staff just hands her a pre-filled bottle which was given to them by a formula company to calm the mother down. Of course, early introduction of the bottle before the mother's milk has come in has a huge negative impact on successful breast feeding. Than they go home, and they have formula samples from their OB/GYN. So when they are tired and frustrated, they don't even have to go to the store, they just grab the sample.

Until we change these practices on a systems level, it is going to be very hard to improve our breast feeding rates.

I think here all our hospitals are what they call 'Baby Friendly'. They are very, very pro breast-feeding (sometimes too pushy about it and not always helpful if you are really struggling like I was). Skin-to-skin straight after birth and encouraged to feed straight away - shots are done later and they don't put anything in their eyes here; there are no nurseries so rooming-in is mandatory (obviously not if baby is in NICU or something); formula companies are not allowed to give free samples or advertise within the hospital; if you want to FF you have to bring your own with you, the hospital does not supply it. I was given formula for Daisy from the locked supply that the Neonatologists had only because she had lost so much weight in the week we were there because I had no milk to feed her with and even then I had to feed it to her with a cup and spoon not a bottle.

I do wish that they wouldn't tell you that breast-feeding is easy or 'doesn't hurt if you get the latch right'. It makes women feel like a failure from the start when they are sitting there in tears with black, bleeding nipples and a screaming, hungry baby! I always warn pregnant friends that it hurts like hell for the first 2 weeks, is slightly less bad the 3rd week and 6 weeks in you'll find it easy peasy! And if you get too miserable then shove a bottle of formula into them and both get some sleep - it's not poison and they almost certainly won't get nipple confusions.

 

[megumic]

Pandora, thanks for your response. I see your point about controlling it and being able to say no. I appreciate you explaining a bit more about your parenting style. As I hope to homebirth and exclusively BF for 6 months to 1 year, along with other very "crunchy" parenting choices, I love to hear how others are doing it as well. Thanks for sharing!

 

[megumic]

I think North American society is really weird and upside down about breastfeeding. When you're pregnant and a new mom, you get bombarded with the "Breast is Best" slogan, advocates telling you that you *have* to BF exclusively, formula is poison or "risky behaviour" and that you "didn't try hard enough" if you don't succeed, etc. On the other hand, a bunch of people get their knickers in a knot over breastfeeding in public and extended breastfeeding. How about we let women make their own choices for what they believe is best for themselves and their children, and support them instead of judging them? Tuckins or anyone else here - This rant isn't directed to you, it's just how I feel about the issue.

meresal - About your neighbour, do you know if the mother wanted to BF at all? When I was pregnant I very much wanted to (and succeeded for a few months), and I would have told DH to shove it where the sun don't shine if he'd decided by himself that J would be formula fed. Not because I think formula is bad; J has been FF'ed out of necessity for the last 8 months and he is very much thriving, but I don't believe the father should be the one deciding if his wife should breastfeed or not. Now, if he's supporting his wife's decision to FF, that's another story.

I wanted to respond to the mixed messages. It seems like when mothers fail at BF they are blamed, but they are often set up to fail. Only 4% of babies in the US are born in hospitals that the WHO considers "breast friendly." Some of those criteria include having good lactation support, and not accepting free formula. The hospital I rotated in only had 2 lactation consultants and they only worked about 1/2 of a day. The babies were born, given their shots (which should be done after the first BF is initiated), and than given to the mother, and everyone leaves her to figure out how to feed this baby. When things go bad, the staff just hands her a pre-filled bottle which was given to them by a formula company to calm the mother down. Of course, early introduction of the bottle before the mother's milk has come in has a huge negative impact on successful breast feeding. Than they go home, and they have formula samples from their OB/GYN. So when they are tired and frustrated, they don't even have to go to the store, they just grab the sample.

Until we change these practices on a systems level, it is going to be very hard to improve our breast feeding rates.

I completely agree with this assessment. A lot of this comes down to how medicalized our childbirthing system is in the US. Instead of evidence-based physiological birth, ob-gyn's kick it off with one intervention, leading to dozens more -- causing a domino of interventions leaving both mom and baby in an entirely unnatural state, overriding their own bodies instincts in responding to birth. I know this is probably the unpopular view, but the fact that our infant and maternal mortality rate is subpar compared to the rest of the industrialized countries, it is clear we're doing *something* wrong.

The goal of BFing goes hand in hand with the first day of maternity care. If we've got it wrong from step one, we can't expect the outcome to be a success.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

I think here all our hospitals are what they call 'Baby Friendly'. They are very, very pro breast-feeding (sometimes too pushy about it and not always helpful if you are really struggling like I was). Skin-to-skin straight after birth and encouraged to feed straight away - shots are done later and they don't put anything in their eyes here; there are no nurseries so rooming-in is mandatory (obviously not if baby is in NICU or something); formula companies are not allowed to give free samples or advertise within the hospital; if you want to FF you have to bring your own with you, the hospital does not supply it. I was given formula for Daisy from the locked supply that the Neonatologists had only because she had lost so much weight in the week we were there because I had no milk to feed her with and even then I had to feed it to her with a cup and spoon not a bottle.

I do wish that they wouldn't tell you that breast-feeding is easy or 'doesn't hurt if you get the latch right'. It makes women feel like a failure from the start when they are sitting there in tears with black, bleeding nipples and a screaming, hungry baby! I always warn pregnant friends that it hurts like hell for the first 2 weeks, is slightly less bad the 3rd week and 6 weeks in you'll find it easy peasy! And if you get too miserable then shove a bottle of formula into them and both get some sleep - it's not poison and they almost certainly won't get nipple confusions.

Yeah, what you are describing is not very common here. I really wish it was. There was one hospital in the city I did my residency that was breast friendly, and they had much better breastfeeding rates than we did. I have read your story on other posts, and I really think the fact that you were able to establish breastfeeding after what you went through is amazing. I have had to introduce formula to a couple babies with an extreme weight loss (and the lactation person at my work always gets upset at me but I tell her at this point the cup feeds won't cut it). I am pro-breastfeeding, but don't take it to the level of some of the lactation consultants I have met. The well being of the baby always takes priority.

You know what? I wish they would have taught me that BF was not easy or does not hurt at first too!!! I found that out after I graduated when one of my friends had a baby. She was happy with feeding when we talked, be she told me the exact same things you did. It kind of made me feel like a fool for misleading so many parents.

 

[Guilty Pleasure]

Meresal, I didn't think you were saying that the father doesn't have a say; you were just talking about an annoying guy at a party and were surprised by his weird conclusion. I was responding to a general feel from other posts after yours, not really directing my post specifically at you.


For the original topic, I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there, but I certainly wouldn't allow a picture to be published of me breastfeeding my two children - one grown. I find it odd that she allows the older child to breastfeed since I get the impression that he had stopped before, but I find it even more odd that she would allow it in the paper! I would prefer my children not have memories of breastfeeding, so I am pretty sure I won't be breastfeeding past 2.

 

[packrat]

London was 13 months, Trapper was 19 months. I wish I'd gone to 2 years with each of them. I loved nursing, and we're not having any more kids, so it makes me sad. I don't know that I would've gone much over 2 tho..at the end Trapper was getting really handsy, like we'd be in a restaurant eating and he'd be busy trying to climb under my shirt, or pull the neckline out and shove his arm down and peek in there.

Our hospital is very baby and booby friendly. The ob nurses are all lactation consultants and we have 2 of our nurses in the office that are as well. They are pushy but not overly to the point you want to hit them.

Trapper was a nursing monster. Both kids immediately knew what to do, tho it wasn't easy peasy lemon squeezy w/London b/c she was the first and it's hard to get the rhythm down of how to hold them and switch them smoothly, break and re-attach if the latch isn't perfect the first time etc. I was using the lanolin cream too, b/c that's what I was told to do, and I ended up w/cracked and raw nipples which is just so awful. I quit using the lanolin b/c I noticed when I didn't put it on I felt better, and I didn't use it at all w/Trapper and never once had a problem. That boy was like..monster nurser. I was so comfortable w/how to do it when he came, even tho it was a little over 2 years since I'd last nursed, so I'm sure that helped but wow, he just did so well w/it. He barely lost any weight by the time we left the hospital and had gained it all back plus more on his 2 week check. He never took a bottle, and I pumped before and after nursing, so I had bags of milk in the deep freeze to last months.

JD was super supportive of the nursing, with both kids, and very protective of my right to do it. He'll comment when we see a nursing mom, and he knows I miss it, and miss that the kids are bigger now and don't "need" me the way they did.

 

[Pandora II]

Meresal, I didn't think you were saying that the father doesn't have a say; you were just talking about an annoying guy at a party and were surprised by his weird conclusion. I was responding to a general feel from other posts after yours, not really directing my post specifically at you.


For the original topic, I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there, but I certainly wouldn't allow a picture to be published of me breastfeeding my two children - one grown. I find it odd that she allows the older child to breastfeed since I get the impression that he had stopped before, but I find it even more odd that she would allow it in the paper! I would prefer my children not have memories of breastfeeding, so I am pretty sure I won't be breastfeeding past 2.

I'm really intrigued as to why you would prefer this... is there a particular reason?

I remember feeding Daisy at a wedding when she was about 3 months old and a little girl who was about 5 coming over to watch. After a minute or so she said 'Is she having booby milk? I used to LOVE booby milk!' and looked all wistful. It was so sweet.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Personally, I think when the child can ask the question "mummy may I please have some milk" and pull up your shirt to nurse, then it's too long.

I've heard a number of people say something like this is their limit, but *why*?

This isn't meant to single you out, I've just heard this guideline a lot and I'm not sure what it is based on. Is it that breastfeeding older kids grosses you out? Or is it a view that breastfeeding is infants only, but once a kid has mastered their vocal cords and made progress on their sentence construction then you are uncomfortable with it? Is the ability to make a verbal request merely a proxy for their age, so its really a way of having a mental age limit on what makes you uncomfortable?

If its the idea that when they are old enough to ask, they are too old, I've seen babies under 1 year clearly ask for milk by signing - they just haven't got the vocal skills yet to be able to communicate their request in spoken words. And my friend's 16 month old could ask verbally. Maybe not as elegantly as the sentence above, but "mommy, nurse, nurse!" made with whining and pleading face You are supposed to feed a child breastmilk or formula through age 1, and then you *may* switch to cow's milk at age 1. But many 1-2 yro are still getting an important part of their nutrition from milk, I don't see why cow's milk is preferable to human, and at some point in that year many children will be able to ask verbally for milk. After that breastfeeding is mostly for comfort, but the AAP clearly states there is "no evidence of psychologic or developmental harm from breastfeeding into the third year of life or longer."

I just think we as a society are out of touch with breastfeeding and it makes us uncomfortable. Heck, I am in that category myself. I had to work at it initially and still don't feel comfortable doing it anywhere and everywhere. But when people go around talking about how "well if they can ask for it that is too old" or "isn't this 6 yro breastfeeding gross!" I just think it doesn't help create a supportive environment for breastfeeding and that is more of a problem. I'm not some kind of lactavist, I think there are a lot of barriers to breastfeeding and if formula works for you or you have some kind of problem breastfeeding, well get your kid fed somehow and feel good about it. But I do feel that there should be somewhat more support for breastfeeding and ideally it would be more normative. I mentioned that my goal is to breastfeed to a year to a friend, and she looked at me like that is quite ambitious/overambitious. (It's the guideline! I'm trying to meet the guideline!) This woman is currently breastfeeding her 6 mo old, so its not like she's clueless. And then I've heard questioning comments about women that are still breastfeeding in their kids in the 1-2 range. None of those women really ended up breastfeeding past age two. Do we really need to make unsupportive comments about breastfeeding in that age range and be judgmental about it? Is it really a problem?

First, I don't run around screaming that BFing in public is wrong or I think BFing an older child is inappropriate. I personally feel that however you chose to feed your child is your business and none of mine. Believe me, I'd be the first in line to whip out one of the girls and feed Aidan in public if I had to and I were still BFing. It breaks my heart that I had to go to formula with Aidan.

I'm not concerned with people BFing their two or even three year olds. It's not the general verbal communication of one or two words or a simple sentence or hand gestures, it's when the child has the ability to form complete sentences with please and thank you and to comprehend what they're saying (versus mimicking). To me that indicates that they're significantly older than two years old. More like pre-school age. As for why I think this age is too old? If the child is in a social group with their peers such as pre-school, then they're old enough to be injured by unkind words. Yes, the fact that someone could make your child feel bad about still breastfeeding is a result of the stigma placed on it by society, but that doesn't mean that the stigma isn't there and shouldn't be considered. Additionally, at that age children are eating solid table foods. There's no nutritional reason for them to be breastfeeding at that age, and while I'm aware that studies show there is no psychological harm with BFing a child under the age of three, I believe there are also studies that show that BFing a child OVER three is done more for the comfort of the parent vs the nutritional benefit of the child.

ETA: Please note I said no nutritional benefit if they're eating solid foods and I classify dairy within that. Additionally, I will never argue that there are not immunologic benefits to breast milk.

 

[Pandora II]

HH - I think you are 100% correct about other children making unkind comments and that being unfair on the child. If someone makes a rude comment to me about feeding in public (which as yet hasn't happened) then I am a mature adult and confident enough in my choices to defend myself and not be upset.

For a child for whom breastfeeding has just been the norm they could be very confused by other children making fun of them to say nothing of being hurt and that isn't fair of a parent to do.

For that reason I hope that if Daisy is still bfing at 3 or so that it is more of a home thing than a public thing and I will take gentle steps towards that. One thing I will be very glad to give up is being asked to feed her dolls, or the other day in the bath... the rubber duck!

The mother and baby group I go to is one run by the local mental health services for women with serious mental illness and their children. For that reason the children are of very mixed ages from around 6 months to 4 years. A lot of the mothers breast-feed (the group is very multicultural - covers Europe/Africa/India/Middle East) very openly there and the children being fed range from 6 months to nearly 3.5 and so it is taken as a normal thing by all the kids whether they are breast or bottle fed or totally weaned.

 

[Guilty Pleasure]

Meresal, I didn't think you were saying that the father doesn't have a say; you were just talking about an annoying guy at a party and were surprised by his weird conclusion. I was responding to a general feel from other posts after yours, not really directing my post specifically at you.


For the original topic, I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there, but I certainly wouldn't allow a picture to be published of me breastfeeding my two children - one grown. I find it odd that she allows the older child to breastfeed since I get the impression that he had stopped before, but I find it even more odd that she would allow it in the paper! I would prefer my children not have memories of breastfeeding, so I am pretty sure I won't be breastfeeding past 2.

I'm really intrigued as to why you would prefer this... is there a particular reason?

I remember feeding Daisy at a wedding when she was about 3 months old and a little girl who was about 5 coming over to watch. After a minute or so she said 'Is she having booby milk? I used to LOVE booby milk!' and looked all wistful. It was so sweet.

I'm not passionate about the opinion, but since it's not "normal" I don't want my child to have to deal with it, either by teasing from other children or feeling weird about it later - especially a son. I am not implying that I think there's anything sexual about breastfeeding, but I can see other little kids who know more than they should about sex making fun of 5 year old boy who breastfeeds.

While I think it's fine for someone else to breastfeed a child past infancy if they want and acknowledge that research shows that a natural weaning age would be later, I just don't see the point in continuing that long. The idea does not appeal to me whatsoever. Normal food works well for nutrition, and I can give my child comfort in other ways.

 

[Dreamer_D]

There is an interesting undercurrent to the recent posts that I have not thought much about before, but I think it is worth thinking about as parents. People are mentioning that they want to make sure that their kids are not engaging in any behaviour (in this case BFing when older) that might get them teased by kids at school. And are willing to put that desire -- avoiding teasing -- ahead of other values that may be important to them, like trying to undo the stigma of BFing at older ages, or even the value that BFing at older ages is OK. I think this issue can be generalized beyond the current discussion. I have heard it come up before for different issues.

I am not faced with this issue yet because Hunter is too young for teasing, but in my gut I do not want to put avoiding ridicule at the top of my priority list for parenting my child, and certainly not ahead of other values I hold dear. I suppose I will cross the bridge when I come to it. But, better or worse, I was raised to think that being unique or different from others is not a bad thing, and to think that if others tease me, they are the fools, not I. And yes, I recall having these notions as a 3 year old and them offering buffer against the inevitible teasing that occurrs. I have never been big on conformity I guess, and will likely pass that on to my kids. I suppose I think that it is more important to stand up for value you believe in that to avoid ridicule. I also think teasing is inevitable, and better to learn to deal with it from a young age in a constructive way than to try to avoid every single thing that might leave one vulnerable to bullies.

 

[Octavia]

Dreamer, I do think it's an important consideration. My husband's circle of friends is acquainted with someone who apparently breast-fed until he was in kindergarten, and he has been mercilessly teased about it (25+ years down the road...). I have no idea why he told people about that in the first place, but it definitely still has ramifications and I would not want my children to have a similar experience. I definitely plan to BF any children we might have, if possible, but not until school-age.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Dreamer, I do think it's an important consideration. My husband's circle of friends is acquainted with someone who apparently breast-fed until he was in kindergarten, and he has been mercilessly teased about it (25+ years down the road...). I have no idea why he told people about that in the first place, but it definitely still has ramifications and I would not want my children to have a similar experience. I definitely plan to BF any children we might have, if possible, but not until school-age.

But you can ask anyone and they can tell you a sob story about being teased mercilessly as a child about something. That is my point. If kids want to victimize you, they will. You cannot avoid all of it. I mean this point more generally, not only about BFing. Will you always put avoiding teasing -- conformity, fitting in -- ahead of your values? What if they teased him about religious practices, or about the color of his skin? The wrong doing is on the bullies, not on the child experiencing the teasing. I don't want to teach my child that he is at fault by trying to make him change to avoid teasing. I want him to learn that teasing is not OK, period, and to stand up to bullies. This is a broader philosophical issue about parenting, not about BFing a kindergardener only.

 

[Octavia]

Dreamer, I do think it's an important consideration. My husband's circle of friends is acquainted with someone who apparently breast-fed until he was in kindergarten, and he has been mercilessly teased about it (25+ years down the road...). I have no idea why he told people about that in the first place, but it definitely still has ramifications and I would not want my children to have a similar experience. I definitely plan to BF any children we might have, if possible, but not until school-age.

But you can ask anyone and they can tell you a sob story about being teased mercilessly as a child about something. That is my point. If kids want to victimize you, they will. You cannot avoid all of it. I mean this point more generally, not only about BFing. Will you always put avoiding teasing -- conformity, fitting in -- ahead of your values? What if they teased him about religious practices, or about the color of his skin? The wrong doing is on the bullies, not on the child experiencing the teasing. I don't want to teach my child that he is at fault by trying to make him change to avoid teasing. I want him to learn that teasing is not OK, period, and to stand up to bullies. This is a broader philosophical issue about parenting, not about BFing a kindergardener only.

You're absolutely right, and I suppose it's just one of the many choices you (general you) have to make as a parent. At least to consider what the possible consequences of your decisions are, and to decide whether they outweigh the benefits. For myself, in my personal situation, I don't think that the benefits of extended breast-feeding would outweigh the societal issues. It may be a problem with society itself, but I wouldn't feel right using my child as a way to make a point. Kids are always going to be embarrassed about something their parents have done along the way, but for me, I'd rather embarrass them with other things. If extended-bfing was something I was passionate about or something I needed to do to keep my child fed and healthy, I'm sure I'd feel differently.

In short, I wasn't trying to say "don't do it" and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I was just trying to say, it's important to think about how decisions you make will impact your kids down the line, as well as right now.

ETA: Of course, this can go the other way, if you end up with a healthier adult kid because of all those yummy nutrients and antibodies when the kid was a baby. Another long-term effect to think about. Which is more important, I think will definitely vary depending on the person and situation.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Dreamer, I do think it's an important consideration. My husband's circle of friends is acquainted with someone who apparently breast-fed until he was in kindergarten, and he has been mercilessly teased about it (25+ years down the road...). I have no idea why he told people about that in the first place, but it definitely still has ramifications and I would not want my children to have a similar experience. I definitely plan to BF any children we might have, if possible, but not until school-age.

But you can ask anyone and they can tell you a sob story about being teased mercilessly as a child about something. That is my point. If kids want to victimize you, they will. You cannot avoid all of it. I mean this point more generally, not only about BFing. Will you always put avoiding teasing -- conformity, fitting in -- ahead of your values? What if they teased him about religious practices, or about the color of his skin? The wrong doing is on the bullies, not on the child experiencing the teasing. I don't want to teach my child that he is at fault by trying to make him change to avoid teasing. I want him to learn that teasing is not OK, period, and to stand up to bullies. This is a broader philosophical issue about parenting, not about BFing a kindergardener only.

You're absolutely right, and I suppose it's just one of the many choices you (general you) have to make as a parent. At least to consider what the possible consequences of your decisions are, and to decide whether they outweigh the benefits. For myself, in my personal situation, I don't think that the benefits of extended breast-feeding would outweigh the societal issues. It may be a problem with society itself, but I wouldn't feel right using my child as a way to make a point. Kids are always going to be embarrassed about something their parents have done along the way, but for me, I'd rather embarrass them with other things. If extended-bfing was something I was passionate about or something I needed to do to keep my child fed and healthy, I'm sure I'd feel differently.

In short, I wasn't trying to say "don't do it" and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I was just trying to say, it's important to think about how decisions you make will impact your kids down the line, as well as right now.

ETA: Of course, this can go the other way, if you end up with a healthier adult kid because of all those yummy nutrients and antibodies when the kid was a baby. Another long-term effect to think about. Which is more important, I think will definitely vary depending on the person and situation.

Ditto the bold part.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I doubt I will ever be nursing a pre-schooler, so really as I said for me it is not so much about BFing for that long at all. I just thought it was an interesting *reason* not to do it and wondered about that as a general decision-making rule.

 

[Guilty Pleasure]

Dreamer, if it was something I was passionate about or even had a strong opinion, I wouldn't let "being teased" sway my decisions. But since I have no desire to breastfeed a pre-schooler and don't see much benefit to it, not getting teased or not having to deal with feeling weird seems like a good enough reason to just not do it. Maybe in a few years I will be at that point in life and will have a strong opinion one way or the other, but I don't see myself feeling strongly, and I'll probably just go with what my pediatrician recommends in terms of nutrition and move on to the next decision.

 

[anchor31]

I think North American society is really weird and upside down about breastfeeding. When you're pregnant and a new mom, you get bombarded with the "Breast is Best" slogan, advocates telling you that you *have* to BF exclusively, formula is poison or "risky behaviour" and that you "didn't try hard enough" if you don't succeed, etc. On the other hand, a bunch of people get their knickers in a knot over breastfeeding in public and extended breastfeeding. How about we let women make their own choices for what they believe is best for themselves and their children, and support them instead of judging them? Tuckins or anyone else here - This rant isn't directed to you, it's just how I feel about the issue.

meresal - About your neighbour, do you know if the mother wanted to BF at all? When I was pregnant I very much wanted to (and succeeded for a few months), and I would have told DH to shove it where the sun don't shine if he'd decided by himself that J would be formula fed. Not because I think formula is bad; J has been FF'ed out of necessity for the last 8 months and he is very much thriving, but I don't believe the father should be the one deciding if his wife should breastfeed or not. Now, if he's supporting his wife's decision to FF, that's another story.

I wanted to respond to the mixed messages. It seems like when mothers fail at BF they are blamed, but they are often set up to fail. Only 4% of babies in the US are born in hospitals that the WHO considers "breast friendly." Some of those criteria include having good lactation support, and not accepting free formula. The hospital I rotated in only had 2 lactation consultants and they only worked about 1/2 of a day. The babies were born, given their shots (which should be done after the first BF is initiated), and than given to the mother, and everyone leaves her to figure out how to feed this baby. When things go bad, the staff just hands her a pre-filled bottle which was given to them by a formula company to calm the mother down. Of course, early introduction of the bottle before the mother's milk has come in has a huge negative impact on successful breast feeding. Than they go home, and they have formula samples from their OB/GYN. So when they are tired and frustrated, they don't even have to go to the store, they just grab the sample.

Until we change these practices on a systems level, it is going to be very hard to improve our breast feeding rates.

I think here all our hospitals are what they call 'Baby Friendly'. They are very, very pro breast-feeding (sometimes too pushy about it and not always helpful if you are really struggling like I was). Skin-to-skin straight after birth and encouraged to feed straight away - shots are done later and they don't put anything in their eyes here; there are no nurseries so rooming-in is mandatory (obviously not if baby is in NICU or something); formula companies are not allowed to give free samples or advertise within the hospital; if you want to FF you have to bring your own with you, the hospital does not supply it. I was given formula for Daisy from the locked supply that the Neonatologists had only because she had lost so much weight in the week we were there because I had no milk to feed her with and even then I had to feed it to her with a cup and spoon not a bottle.

I do wish that they wouldn't tell you that breast-feeding is easy or 'doesn't hurt if you get the latch right'. It makes women feel like a failure from the start when they are sitting there in tears with black, bleeding nipples and a screaming, hungry baby! I always warn pregnant friends that it hurts like hell for the first 2 weeks, is slightly less bad the 3rd week and 6 weeks in you'll find it easy peasy! And if you get too miserable then shove a bottle of formula into them and both get some sleep - it's not poison and they almost certainly won't get nipple confusions.

It seems like Canada is a mix of the two. The hospitals are "baby friendly" like Pandora describes the UK ones, but nursing in public and extrended nursing are a huge taboo like the US.

To bolded: Yes! Thank you. My feelings exactly.