Brilliance vs Inclusions

[Bella123]

Hi everyone,

I'm considering purchasing a diamond from a local retailer, and I'm torn between two. They are both I, SI1 and roughly the same size and dimensions. Both stones are eye clean and are going into a simple gold band setting with a platinum 4-pronged top.

The first stone has two small dark crystal inclusions in the center of the table that are visible from the pavilion, if you know where to look for them. They are really small. "Notations on this one are: additional pinpoints not shown."

The second stone has a small cavity at 12 o'clock (which can be covered by a prong), a large feather that starts in the crown and ends in the pavilion at about 3' o'clock (which might be pronged or close to one), along with some additional small feathers around the crown that are hardly noticeable with 10x loupe for me at least, and a small feather and cloud in the center of the table that are visible with loupe. Notations on this one are "additional clouds not shown."

The second stone is a little more brilliant than the first one and because it's 100% eye clean from all angles, it's the diamond I'm leaning towards, except that I'm very nervous that it has both a large feather and a cavity located near the girdle.

I'm also wondering if it's worth sacrificing the extra brilliance for a stone with two small dark crystals because that one might be a better stone.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

Thank you,
Bella

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/26/2010 9:43:44 AM
Author:Bella123
Hi everyone,

I'm considering purchasing a diamond from a local retailer, and I'm torn between two. They are both I, SI1 and roughly the same size and dimensions. Both stones are eye clean and are going into a simple gold band setting with a platinum 4-pronged top.

The first stone has two small dark crystal inclusions in the center of the table that are visible from the pavilion, if you know where to look for them. They are really small. 'Notations on this one are: additional pinpoints not shown.'

The second stone has a small cavity at 12 o'clock (which can be covered by a prong), a large feather that starts in the crown and ends in the pavilion at about 3' o'clock (which might be pronged or close to one), along with some additional small feathers around the crown that are hardly noticeable with 10x loupe for me at least, and a small feather and cloud in the center of the table that are visible with loupe. Notations on this one are 'additional clouds not shown.'

The second stone is a little more brilliant than the first one and because it's 100% eye clean from all angles, it's the diamond I'm leaning towards, except that I'm very nervous that it has both a large feather and a cavity located near the girdle.

I'm also wondering if it's worth sacrificing the extra brilliance for a stone with two small dark crystals because that one might be a better stone.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

Thank you,
Bella

Hi Bella

What I would suggest is to post all the info from the grading reports here so we can help you judge the cut qualities of each, or if you get the report numbers we can look up this info online. I would want a second opinion on the second stone concerning the cavity so making any sale final on a thorough inspection by an independant appraiser would be prudent.

appraiser tool

 

[Bella123]

Hi Lorelei,

Thank you for responding. I will attach the certificates.

This one is stone #1 - 2.02 carats

Thank you again,
Bella

 

[Bella123]

For some reason, I''m having difficulty uploading the certificate for the 2.08 Ct daimond with the cavity. i will try again later. but here is the information from the cert and please let me know if you need anything additional.

Both stones have GIA certificates

Stone 1: Dark crystal inclusions

Weight: 2.02 carat
color: I
Clarity: SI1
Cut Grade: Excellent
Pol/sym: VG, VG
Fluor: None
Measurements: 8.13-8.20 x 4.95
Table: 59%
Depth: 60.6%
Crown: 32.5 degrees
pavillion: 41.4 degrees
girdle: thin - slightly thick faceted 3.5%


Stone 2: Cavity, feather, etc.

Weight: 2.08 carat
color: I
Clarity: SI1
Cut Grade: Excellent
Pol/sym: VG, VG
Fluor: None
Measurements: 8.13-8.20 x 4.95
Table: 59%
Depth: 60.8%
Crown: 34.5 degrees
pavillion: 41.0 degrees
girdle: med - slightly thick faceted 3.0%

Please let me know if you need any additional info.

Thank you,
Bella

 

[Bella123]

Here is my third attempt at trying to attach the other certificate and i''m keeping my fingers crossed because I think it worked this time.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/26/2010 11:13:34 AM
Author: Bella123
For some reason, I'm having difficulty uploading the certificate for the 2.08 Ct daimond with the cavity. i will try again later. but here is the information from the cert and please let me know if you need anything additional.

Both stones have GIA certificates

Stone 1: Dark crystal inclusions

Weight: 2.02 carat
color: I
Clarity: SI1
Cut Grade: Excellent
Pol/sym: VG, VG
Fluor: None
Measurements: 8.13-8.20 x 4.95
Table: 59%
Depth: 60.6%
Crown: 32.5 degrees
pavillion: 41.4 degrees
girdle: thin - slightly thick faceted 3.5%


Stone 2: Cavity, feather, etc.

Weight: 2.08 carat
color: I
Clarity: SI1
Cut Grade: Excellent
Pol/sym: VG, VG
Fluor: None
Measurements: 8.13-8.20 x 4.95
Table: 59%
Depth: 60.8%
Crown: 34.5 degrees
pavillion: 41.0 degrees
girdle: med - slightly thick faceted 3.0%

Please let me know if you need any additional info.

Thank you,
Bella

Hi Bella


From the info we have I prefer the second diamond, the first has quite a steep pavilion angle which is undesirable particularly in near colourless stones as this can lead to colour entrapment and make a stone show more warmth/ tint than it would otherwise do. The lower girdle facets can be helpful with this angle combo in the second stone as this can help offset any leakage, now there is no way for us to properly judge without images but suffice to say from the info we have, this stone is the most promising for cut quality.

What I would do with a purchase of this magnitude, make the sale final on the diamond checking out with an independant appraisal and get the appraiser to check out the cavity and the cloud inclusion to make sure there is no durability issue, and that the cloud isn't impacting performance respectively.

Here is the appraiser tool and make sure you get an agreement in writing between you and the seller that you can get an appraisal done during an agreed return period and that you can return the stone should it not appraise to your satisfaction for any reason.

 

[Bella123]

Hi Lorelei,

I also prefer the second stone because it is more brilliant than the first. I''m just nervous about the inclusions.

Idon''t know what the star and lower girdle angles are, but I will try to answer you. Also, are you able to see the certs with the GIA number? Because I attached both certs, but I can happily give you the numbers if that will help.

Stone 2: 2.08 carats

There is a percentage in the crown area: 14.5%
Percentage in Pavillion area: 43.5%

Stone 1:
Crown: 13.0%
Pavillion: 44.0%

I appreciate your help and fully understand I am only getting opinions here which is all I want. I''ve been doing my research, but it''s so hard and I''m paying alot of money for these stones, especially since I''m getting them from a B&M store versus an online vendor. And actually, if you can even explain why these other percentages are important and what the ideal range is, i woudl appreciate that. However, i can do a google search also and see what I can find.

Thank you again!!

Bella

 

[Todd Gray]

Neither diamond sounds like an acceptable option... Regarding the first diamond, you indicate that it is less brilliant than the second option, this is because the proportions of the diamond are sub-par - yet in terms of inclusions, it is a better option.

Regarding the second diamond, the proportions are more desirable, but the inclusions sound like they might present a potential durability issue at some point in the future - thus it should probably be avoided.

As a customer, you aren''t ''required'' to make a decision between the two diamonds being offered to you simply because they happen to be what the retailer has on hand to offer... Tell the retailer what you want and see if they can obtain it for you...

Most SI-1 clarity diamonds will contain inclusions which can be seen from a side profile, diamonds are graded from a top down perspective and faceted to make it more difficult to see inclusions from the top - thus the clarity grade is based on to what degree the inclusions within the diamond are visible from a top down perspective with and without magnification...

In terms of proportions, my preference is this:

Total depth between 59 - 61.8%
Table diameter between 53 - 57%
Crown angle between 34.3 - 34.8 degrees
Pavilion angle between 40.6 - 40.9 degrees
Girdle edge between thin to slightly thick
Culet: GIA none or AGS pointed

I prefer to avoid inclusions such as knots, cavities, twinning wisps and extensive feathers or stacks of small feathers if located within close proximity of one another...

Admittedly I tend to be a bit of a ''diamond purist'' so I''m stating my preferences for what I consider to be a good ''starting point'' in terms of information to be used to sift through the myriad of options which are available... There are other ranges of proportions and offsets for crown and pavilion angle which will produce similar visual performance, however it is more of a challenge to find diamonds of comparable visual performance outside of this range - so I prefer to simply shop within the tighter range which makes it easier to find options - and I say options because these proportions do not guarantee exceptional visual performance, they''re just a good start - you''ll still need to use your eyes and pick the best option from those provided by the retailer within this range of specifications. Happy hunting! There are lots of tutorials to be found here on PS and within the web sites of the various vendors who contribute here... Read as many as possible before you buy.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/26/2010 11:26:55 AM
Author: Bella123
Hi Lorelei,

I also prefer the second stone because it is more brilliant than the first. I''m just nervous about the inclusions.

Idon''t know what the star and lower girdle angles are, but I will try to answer you. Also, are you able to see the certs with the GIA number? Because I attached both certs, but I can happily give you the numbers if that will help.


Bella

Its ok Bella, I was able to edit the post and find the report for the second diamond had loaded so I was able to get the info needed that way.

 

[Bella123]

Thank you, Todd. Your information is going to be very helpful and I appreciate it.

One question though, when you say "extensive feathers," would you consider the feathers in the 2.08 carat to be extensive? I''m just trying to get an idea of what to be aware of.

Thanks again,
Bella

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 2/26/2010 11:51:04 AM
Author: Bella123
Thank you, Todd. Your information is going to be very helpful and I appreciate it.

One question though, when you say ''extensive feathers,'' would you consider the feathers in the 2.08 carat to be extensive? I''m just trying to get an idea of what to be aware of.

Thanks again,

Bella

I do, give me a few minutes to mark-up the plotting diagram from the GIA lab report and I''ll post it with explanation...

 

[Todd Gray]

The plotting diagram on the lab report consists of two sections, a top down view and a bottom view. The two sections combined provide a two dimensional profile of where the inclusions within the diamond are located and the relative extent of the inclusions. To properly align the two halves of the diamond so that a full picture of the inclusions may be considered, simply fold the lower half of the plotting diagram (right side) under the top half of the plotting diagram (left side) as if there were an imaginary line located between the two halves of the diamond. Then imagine that you’ve created a three dimensional model of the diamond you are considering and look at how the inclusions line up, if at all. I''ve added an overlay of the two halves of the diamond to the plotting diagram from the original GIA lab report to provide an indication of how the inclusions indicated within the two halves of the diamond relate to each other and as you''ll see, they line up in several instances, and cluster together in others in such a way that the inclusions become more substantial than they appeared before the two halves of the diamond were considered as a whole.

 

[Bella123]

Thank you both. It will be interesting to see your drawing Todd. So, my guess is that paying the Rappaport price for these stones isn''t worth it and I should continue looking?

From all the stones I''ve seen, the 2.08 is one of the better ones. I''m considering have an independant appraiser look at and/or probably keep looking and hope that I found one that is as close to my ideal as possbile. I guess if I wasn''t paying premium for the stone, then I would be willing to deal with certain inclusions. This is a 10 year anniversary gift, so I have plenty time to look.

One quick question: Do you think I will find that all B&M stores sell at the Rappaport price? or will some discount stones like online retailers (obviously not as much, but maybe even 10% or so)?

Thank you again!

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 2/26/2010 1:12:16 PM
Author: Bella123
Thank you both. It will be interesting to see your drawing Todd. So, my guess is that paying the Rappaport price for these stones isn''t worth it and I should continue looking?

From all the stones I''ve seen, the 2.08 is one of the better ones. I''m considering have an independant appraiser look at and/or probably keep looking and hope that I found one that is as close to my ideal as possbile. I guess if I wasn''t paying premium for the stone, then I would be willing to deal with certain inclusions. This is a 10 year anniversary gift, so I have plenty time to look.

One quick question: Do you think I will find that all B&M stores sell at the Rappaport price? or will some discount stones like online retailers (obviously not as much, but maybe even 10% or so)?

Thank you again!

The ''prices'' indicated on the Rapaport Price Report which is commonly referred to as "Rap" within the industry are not ''prices'' in as much as they are projected indications of what the market price might be for diamonds with the stated characteristics at a wholesale level... However what is not explained is that the cut quality of the diamond is not taken into account and that there are premiums charged above Rap for diamonds of exceptional cut quality and significant discounts ''off of Rap'' (or ''in back of Rap'') given for diamonds of lower cut quality... So a common ploy is to tell a customer that "this diamond is being sold at Rap - which is New York Wholesale" in an attempt to convince a customer of the value the diamond represents... This statement is more often misleading than it is accurate.

A poorly cut diamond being offered at 10% in back of Rap is not a deal when it was purchased at 60% in back of Rap because it is poorly cut - it is merely being offered at what the dealer considers to be a fair market price...

Likewise a diamond of exceptional cut quality which is being sold for 10% over Rap is not ''expensive'' simply because it is 10% over Rap - it is merely being offered at what is fair market value for a diamond of that cut quality.

And it must be stated that variances in the clarity characteristics within the diamond also add and detract from the Rap price accordingly... An SI-1 clarity grade due to small diamond crystals will not warrant the same discount off of Rap that an SI-1 clarity grade due to feathers, cavities, knots and twinning wisps will...

The same concept holds true to the color grade and fluorescence rating of the diamond... And then there is the influence of which gemological laboratory graded the diamond - if it is lab graded at all.

A few years ago I wrote an article titled "The Rap Trap" and published it on the web site, it took about three weeks before it was brought to the attention of Martin Rapaport (the publisher of the Rapaport Diamond Price Report) who called to say that he had read the article - at first I thought he might ask us to remove it from the web site, but instead he told us that he thought it explained the issue very well. Whew

When all is said and done, I think that the public is best served by running a comparison for diamonds of similar characteristics on diamond search engines such as those offered here on PS than they are in trying to compare the value of their purchase to the prices stated on Rap - simply because there are too many unknown variables hidden beneath the published values on the Rap sheet...

 

[Bella123]

Hi Todd,

I see what you mean. I understand why you had to turn the bottom view a bit to match it up with the top view, but I wonder why GIA doesn''t literaly just slice the diamond in 1/2 so you wouldn''t have to turn the bottom view to line it up?

I know that inclusions in the crown are preferred, but is it that these inclusions are so close to (and cross) the girdle and therefore, should make a buyer think twice?

Thanks,
Bella

 

[Todd Gray]

I''ve always wondered why the labs don''t make it easier for consumers to realize how inclusions line up with each other, but I suppose that it is done the way it is to make it easier to plot the inclusions for the grader... This is where clarity photographs for online customers are of great help and where being able to see the diamond in-person for in-store purchases is beneficial because you can look past the paper and view the extent of the actual inclusions.

As stated previously, I''m a bit of a purist and those that know me will confirm that I''m being kind to myself when I use the term bit because the cutters think that I''m a bit of a snob - I thought it was a compliment, but I''m assured that it''s not

That said, I prefer to avoid certain inclusion types and definitely clusters of inclusions which look to me like they have the potential to present a durability issue... You mentioned earlier that the diamond had a cavity "which a prong could be placed over" and I have to say, I cringed - because a cavity in a diamond is like a cavity in a tooth and I''m thinking "a little too much pressure clamped down on that prong and that could be a real problem" but a lot of people are likely to tell you that I''m worrying about nothing, and maybe I am, but I prefer to let other people take that risk...

A "feather" is a polite industry term for a "fracture" and I am not concerned with small fractures because they are rarely of any consequence, but I see several pretty large fractures indicated on the plotting diagram for this diamond and a few of the smaller ones cross over into the sections where I also see cavities indicated and I''m thinking that fractures mixed with cavities are something which should probably be avoided - but I''m considering the ''paper aspects'' of the diamond because that is all I have available to me - this is where the advice of a neutral 3rd party independent appraiser is of critical importance, because that person can look at the inclusions in great detail and determine whether the inclusions merely look bad on paper or if they in fact look bad in person too...

Within the small niche of the diamond industry in which I play, I''ll tell you that I''m more apt to avoid diamonds with paper such as this in favor of waiting for something more tempting to pop up on the radar - there are always more choices to consider if time is on your side and I believe that it is.

 

[IceExplorer]

Todd,
Thanks for sharing so much information. I thoroughly enjoyed the read and appreciate how you've uncovered some of the mystery of "Rap".

In my own experience I had a vendor tell me that he would only ask for X % above Rap because he needed to make "a little profit". He said some of these places would never think of letting you see a "Rap" sheet. He told me he prefers to deal straight up. There was no mention of passing on the discount on of the 'in back of Rap' price. Based on what you've written, it is highly likely I'd get charge his "little profit" then he'd negotiate on the back end find extra margin. All at the expense of the quality of the diamond for a consumer who doesn't know better.

Again, thank you for sharing this information.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 2/26/2010 1:12:16 PM
Author: Bella123
Thank you both. It will be interesting to see your drawing Todd. So, my guess is that paying the Rappaport price for these stones isn''t worth it and I should continue looking?

From all the stones I''ve seen, the 2.08 is one of the better ones. I''m considering have an independant appraiser look at and/or probably keep looking and hope that I found one that is as close to my ideal as possbile. I guess if I wasn''t paying premium for the stone, then I would be willing to deal with certain inclusions. This is a 10 year anniversary gift, so I have plenty time to look.

One quick question: Do you think I will find that all B&M stores sell at the Rappaport price? or will some discount stones like online retailers (obviously not as much, but maybe even 10% or so)?

Thank you again!

i wouldn''t even pay 30% back of Rap for either one.

 

[Dreamer_D]

What price is being asked for the two diamonds?

If I had to pick, I would choose the second for its better proportions. But really, there are a million and one diamonds out there. For the money I am sure you are spending, get one that you don''t worry about.

 

[Bella123]

Todd - Thank you again for all the information. You have been so helpful and I really appreciate it. I won''t be getting either stone and I will continue to search.

)

Dreamer - You will think I''m crazy.. but the stones are both priced at $8800/carat. The 2.02 is $17,800 and the 2.08 is $18,300.

The online prices are so much better than the B&M stores, but I think I would feel more comfortable seeing the stone in person and I know there is an extra price to pay for that.


Thank you all for your help. I''m so thankful I found this forum!

)

Bella

 

[Dreamer_D]

Wellll... those prices are about $5k higher than a non H&A diamond from a drop shipper, and are similar to what you would pay for a branded H&A cut from a PS vendor (e.g., http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/whiteflash-aca-cut-diamond-68015.htm).

You know, buying online is not sight unseen necessarily. You can see photos and videos and you have the opinion of an expert. Then you can have the diamond sent to an appraiser near you to assess it and see it in person before you finalize the sale.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 2/26/2010 9:25:31 PM
Author: Bella123
Todd - Thank you again for all the information. You have been so helpful and I really appreciate it. I won''t be getting either stone and I will continue to search.

)

Dreamer - You will think I''m crazy.. but the stones are both priced at $8800/carat. The 2.02 is $17,800 and the 2.08 is $18,300.

The online prices are so much better than the B&M stores, but I think I would feel more comfortable seeing the stone in person and I know there is an extra price to pay for that.


Thank you all for your help. I''m so thankful I found this forum!

)

Bella

heck, for those prices i can fly to Houston (BGD/WF) or Long Island (GOG)