...but you just have to have kids!

[lbbaber]

I just read this entire thread and I have to admit that I am one of those annoying people that have asked newly/soon to be married couples about potential baby plans. I never realized how frustrating it could be for some. To be honest, when I ask it is usually just an attempt at "small talk" and babies seemed like a logical subject (to me anyways). From now on, I will stick with talking about the weather. This has been an eye opening thread for me!

 

[manderz]

I think it's all in how you ask. I've asked some of those questions too, but just worded a little differently. I wouldn't ask when are you going to have a/another child? I would word it more like are you thinking about having a child? I wouldn't ask just anyone these questions either, only just close friends.

 

[GingerP]

I admit to being someone who occasionally asks people if they plan on having kids. I cannot imagine asking a stranger/acquaintance that question, but I could imagine asking one in the right context if they have kids.

Please shed some light for me. What is so offensive about asking someone (particularly close friends or family) if they plan on having kids? If a couple has trouble conceiving, I understand that it can be difficult to discuss; however, wouldn't it also help to have someone who cares to talk to in your time of distress? If it is "too personal," why do people feel the need to give smart a$$ answers rather than being honest and saying something along the lines of "that is a personal decision I'd rather not discuss and hope that you can respect that."

I understand if someone endlessly harps on you, challenges your decision because they think you are ignorant, insults your perspective, or accuses you of inhumanity, it could get rather ingratiating. For the run-of-the-mill conversations, however, I don't understand the hostility.

This is coming from someone who is on the fence about having kids. I identify with many of the childless-by-choice posters and many of their reasons for not having kids. At this time I'm unwilling to introduce the lifestyle changes that come with having kids and am uncertain about my willingness to in the future. I also vehemently believe that having a child is more inherently selfish than not (on a philosophical level). Having said that, I recognize that I personally might decide to have kids later. Since I am uncertain, it has made me increasingly curious about others' motivations for procreating. I like to hear others' perspectives in case there is something in their beliefs that I may not have considered. I'm also generally very curious about the psychology of people and what motivates them to make the decisions they do, so maybe I just think differently.

 

[Imdanny]

It explains why those who have deep love for their children might hope that family members or close friends would eventually have that joy.

Wishing me joy is a kind and wonderful thing BUT...

While I DO hope to have joy, too me having kids would not be joy.
It would be quite the opposite - and there's nothing wrong with that or me.

This EXACTLY! Getting accidentally pregnant would be on of the the worst things that could happen to me (second to being paralyzed, cancer, or death!). Getting pregnant/having kids brings YOU joy DS, but it would bring me much stress and unhappiness.

I once was told by a coworker that she hoped I accidentally got pregnant. I normally am not offended by what people say, but I was FURIOUS. I went off on her. Why the hell would you wish a kid on someone who doesn't want a kid?

Ok, that's just psychotic on her part. Wow.

 

[misssoph]

One of my friends mothers told me once that after several years of marriage all her older relatives kept harassing her about when theybwere having kids.... Eventually she snapped and said.. Well we have just had our fifth miscarriage.... And they never asked again.
Consequently I have never asked anyone when they are having kids....either they
1) arent ready
2)don't want to either now or never,
3)or they can't
and none of these options are any of my business.

 

[Amys Bling]

I admit to being someone who occasionally asks people if they plan on having kids. I cannot imagine asking a stranger/acquaintance that question, but I could imagine asking one in the right context if they have kids.

Please shed some light for me. What is so offensive about asking someone (particularly close friends or family) if they plan on having kids? If a couple has trouble conceiving, I understand that it can be difficult to discuss; however, wouldn't it also help to have someone who cares to talk to in your time of distress? If it is "too personal," why do people feel the need to give smart a$$ answers rather than being honest and saying something along the lines of "that is a personal decision I'd rather not discuss and hope that you can respect that."

I understand if someone endlessly harps on you, challenges your decision because they think you are ignorant, insults your perspective, or accuses you of inhumanity, it could get rather ingratiating. For the run-of-the-mill conversations, however, I don't understand the hostility.

This is coming from someone who is on the fence about having kids. I identify with many of the childless-by-choice posters and many of their reasons for not having kids. At this time I'm unwilling to introduce the lifestyle changes that come with having kids and am uncertain about my willingness to in the future. I also vehemently believe that having a child is more inherently selfish than not (on a philosophical level). Having said that, I recognize that I personally might decide to have kids later. Since I am uncertain, it has made me increasingly curious about others' motivations for procreating. I like to hear others' perspectives in case there is something in their beliefs that I may not have considered. I'm also generally very curious about the psychology of people and what motivates them to make the decisions they do, so maybe I just think differently.

For me it's the "oh, you'll change your mind! oh, just wait, you don't mean that". If my in-laws, friends, and acquaintenaces purely asked and then said, oh, really I had no idea... or, oh ok, then fine. It's the assumption that we have to or will change our mind, that our response may be a "joke" just pulling on their leg. My mother-in-law always gets a little smirk and then says, "oh, right! ok, we won't talk about it" and then winks as if we are saying it to be funny and that we will have her grandchildren. It's that response to our answer of "we are undecided" " we don't want children" that really gets to me.

 

[jstarfireb]

It's exactly that for me as well. The question in itself is not that bad (though it can be tiresome to answer the same question over and over again). It's the judgmental response we childfree folks get from some people.

 

[Scorpioanne]

I chose to have one child, I was 21 when he was born and he will be 30 in July (I can hardly believe it as the time has gone so fast and I look too young ). I knew I just wanted one and part of it was that I figured I'd end up as a single parent which I did. I love my son dearly and he has turned into an amazing young man and he makes me proud of both him and me.

That being said I am aware that had I waited I may never have had a child. I think I had him without really thinking of all the implications (both long and short term) of having a child. He left home to go to university at 18 and that changed our relationship so that it is a less parent child relationship. I guess one thing that makes it different is that I am really respectful of the boundaries he sets and he is respectful of mine as I don't feel I need to act in a parental role.

I am happily married to my 2nd husband and it is so great to be able to enjoy him and our relationship without the pressure of making plans for the "next phase". We are in careers we love, have a house, no kids at home and all that good stuff - there is definitely a benefit to being older.

When DH and I got married almost 7 years ago I was almost 45 and the daughter of friends asked me if we were gong to have kids ( ). That blew my mind! As an aside, she and her DH just got married not even 2 years ago (I think she is about 23) and she is already pregnant. I think she just thinks she should have a child because that is what you are supposed to do. She also doesn't have a career, she has a low-paying retail job.

So all in all, I think some people just go with the flow and don't really analyse the situation and realise that they have choices. Thirty years ago deciding to just have one was a big deal.

 

[Gothgrrl]

In response to GingerP's question. I had a very good friend, you know those once in a lifetime friendship, being so close we'd can almost read each others mind. Anyhow, when she finally got married and had a child, I was very happy for her. Later she said she wanted more children. Now her health was not very good, and she had such problems just having this one. I explained how maybe it would be better not to have anymore. think about the one you have now. What if something were to happen to you? Well she went on and had 3 more. I always was a good friend to her never saying anything else. I supported her in everything she decided.

Growing up together, she had always known my desire not to have kids. For whatever reason, she started to ask that question on when am I going to have one. Every chance she'd get, shed preached to me why I NEED to have children. And to make me more upset, when her husband answered the phone the first things he would always say is are you pregnant yet. It's fustrating enough when close friends and family pressure you. And there were a few of my clientele that keep asking the day old question. Yes, it's nobodies buisness but sometimes you gret some really pushy people.

I have always said that some people don't want to get married. Some people don't want children. As long as your a good person, and a happy one at that, leave well enough alone.
ETA I wanted to add that we are no longer fiends. such a shame too.

 

[Haven]

GingerP--I think it's always rude to ask a childless couple if they plan to have children. (Of course, if it's your best-friend from childhood and you talk about everything, that's a different story.) I think it's rude because this is an extremely personal choice, and it is inappropriate IMO to ask people such personal questions.

The question also makes the assumption that having children is the next normal thing for a married couple to do, so asking it in itself seems to challenge their decision (or inability) to not have children, if that's their situation.

The bottom line is that you are obligating people to either share very personal information with you, or to try to come up with a tactful way of dodging your intrusiveness on the spot when you ask them whether they plan on having children.

This is one of many questions that falls under the "If we were close enough you'd already know this information" category, and IMO any question in this category is a rude question to ask of someone else.

I wonder if our current reality tv/Facebook/Twitter culture is making this concept more alien to some people because so many people choose to broadcast all of the details of their lives (from the mundane to the crude to the TMI) to everyone they know. That there are people who prefer to keep their personal lives private, and I am certainly one of them. I share so much here on PS that I do not share with people I know IRL, and I prefer to keep it that way. It still shocks me when people ask for or share very personal details of their lives, and sad to say I feel like it's getting worse with time.

 

[GingerP]

GingerP--I think it's always rude to ask a childless couple if they plan to have children. (Of course, if it's your best-friend from childhood and you talk about everything, that's a different story.) I think it's rude because this is an extremely personal choice, and it is inappropriate IMO to ask people such personal questions.

The question also makes the assumption that having children is the next normal thing for a married couple to do, so asking it in itself seems to challenge their decision (or inability) to not have children, if that's their situation.

The bottom line is that you are obligating people to either share very personal information with you, or to try to come up with a tactful way of dodging your intrusiveness on the spot when you ask them whether they plan on having children.

This is one of many questions that falls under the "If we were close enough you'd already know this information" category, and IMO any question in this category is a rude question to ask of someone else.

I wonder if our current reality tv/Facebook/Twitter culture is making this concept more alien to some people because so many people choose to broadcast all of the details of their lives (from the mundane to the crude to the TMI) to everyone they know. That there are people who prefer to keep their personal lives private, and I am certainly one of them. I share so much here on PS that I do not share with people I know IRL, and I prefer to keep it that way. It still shocks me when people ask for or share very personal details of their lives, and sad to say I feel like it's getting worse with time.

I guess I still don't necessarily understand. I mean, I do understand the concept, but I guess I don't see it that threatening (for lack of a better word). In one sense, having children is biologically the next normal thing for a committed couple to do. In the animal kingdom, females and males choose each other based on some genetically wired impression of suitability and mate in order to procreate. The difference is that humans have evolved over time with higher levels of thinking and analytically abilities. We were given the skills to put a value system on something that is innately biological. I don't think the question is in itself too personal, but our learned value system has labeled it as such.

And if it is a matter of falling within the category of "if we were close enough you'd already know," how does it become a known piece of information if someone doesn't ask? And how do you get close enough to a person to know if you don't ask questions that slowly get more personal? Of course, I understand that there is a level of chemistry involved in how close you get to a friend, but people misread that chemistry all the time. There have been a number of posts where people lament the loss of a friend because of lack of reciprocation. I'm sure it's happened to all of us.

Just to clarify, I'm not one to dive into someone's personal intricacies if I don't think we have that kind of relationship, so I guess I'm not getting the line. (Though I'm sure I've accidentally overstepped that at some point if I think about it.) And I do understand how bothersome it can be if the same person or people continually harass a person with this question (as any form of harassment is not cool). I just don't see why the question can merit hostility in normal situations. It is often hard to come up with topics of conversations with strangers/acquaintances. Can't we be more forgiving of awkward questions in awkward situations?

Also, I don't think the proliferation of reality TV/social networking is necessarily a catalyst, but I'm sure it does help blur the lines of appropriate social interaction. I think that talk shows and paparazzi magazines would be more likely culprits, as they promote sharing of lifestyles and personal lives and information. I do think there is a line where it's too invasive, but I don't believe some of these modes of information dissemination are harmful. I guess I'm of the thought that the more people bring issues like infertility or disorders or what-have-you into the fray, the more education there is about it and the less lonely people are if they are going through it.

As a side note, the only reality TV I really watch are the competition type ones like "So You Think You Can Dance," and though I have a Facebook account I am not a prolific user of it, nor do I have any other social media accounts. I don't follow celebrity gossip...I don't even have cable TV. It took me about 4 years to post online (and PS is the only forum I visit). I generally value my privacy, too. So I, at least don't fit into the social media/trash TV stereotype that well.

I do know one thing for certain, though. You all have scared me into compliance and from now on I plan on being more careful about asking this question for fear of a verbal smackdown (hopefully not a physical one).

 

[Haven]

GingerP--I don't really think there's anything to understand. You believe that it *isn't* intrusive and inappropriate to ask people whether they plan on having children. Many people *do* believe it is intrusive and inappropriate to ask people whether they plan on having children. What is there to understand? If it's *why* people believe this is too personal a question, I already answered that in my last post with this: "The bottom line is that you are obligating people to either share very personal information with you, or to try to come up with a tactful way of dodging your intrusiveness on the spot when you ask them whether they plan on having children." I'd also say it's fine if you don't understand, as long as you respect people's beliefs that differ from your own.

As for your question about how to know when it's appropriate to ask, my answer is: never. If someone wants to talk about her plans to have children with you, she'll bring it up herself. Same goes for other information that's too personal to ask about such as how much money someone earns, what they spent on an item, whether they plan on having more children, if their children were conceived naturally or otherwise, etc. etc. My closest friends know everything about my anxieties about having kids, and that's because it all came up during natural conversations we have.

I don't think my belief that this is too personal a question has anything to do with society. It has everything to do with my own personal sense of privacy and how much I care to share with others about my life.

As for being forgiving of awkward conversations, I can't imagine that any of us who have vented in this thread are *really* unforgiving of people who innocently cross a line in a real conversation. I know I don't make people feel uncomfortable in conversations, even if they've made me uncomfortable first. And no worries, I really don't think anyone is going to give you a verbal OR a physical smackdown for asking an invasive question! I see this thread as a place to vent for those of us who find these questions invasive, so I'm thinking we're saying much harsher things here than we would ever say in real life. (At least, I hope that's the case!)

ETA: GingerP--You seem to be a very thoughtful and intelligent person based on your posts, so I really don't think you have anything to worry about! Seriously, I can't imagine you're offending people in real life conversations. You seem way too thoughtful for that.

 

[GingerP]

I guess that's my point. Everyone's idea of what is intrusive is subjective. Whereas I'm uncomfortable discussing things like how much a person makes, the baby topic doesn't put me on edge. I could ask an acquaintance how their parents are not knowing that person's parents are abusive criminals or sadly going through terminal illness. What people are sensitive about is impossible to predict, so the lesson learned here for me through this whole thread is that the baby topic should be universally accepted as inappropriate for "polite" conversation.

I'm just curious about people's thought process on this (and other things), which is why I'm continuing to ask questions. I get it now, I probably won't understand, and I respect that our opinions differ. I just can't help my curiosity. Truth is, I have a tendency to probe until things make sense in my head, and I think because of that I do offend people when I don't intend to do so. I hope I am not offending you, as I'm not trying to be argumentative, though I've been accused of that more times than I'd like to admit.

FYI, I wasn't referring to anyone in particular giving me a verbal lashing. I just meant that I'd try to avoid asking people the baby question in the future for fear someone else gives me an in-person etiquette lesson. The physical smackdown thing was my lame attempt at a joke in a tone-bereft medium.

 

[GingerP]

Oh, and for the record, I've enjoyed your posts in the past, Haven. I've found you to be one of the most consistently polite and sensible posters here with a fun, quirky side.

 

[Haven]

Oh, and for the record, I've enjoyed your posts in the past, Haven. I've found you to be one of the most consistently polite and sensible posters here with a fun, quirky side.

Haha, thank you. I'm laughing because my mom using the "quirky" as a euphemism to describe me when she really means "insane". I know you weren't doing the same thing, by the way!

I'm not offended at all by your questions, I rather enjoyed the discussion and look forward to more.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

deleted

 

[Gypsy]

We aren't planning on having kids. Do we get rude comments? Less and less. We've been pretty united on the "it's not something that's right for us" campaign for years.

What some people don't get is that we aren't "anti-kid"... just because we don't want our own doesn't mean we don't enjoy other people's or that we look down on them for having made a choice different from ours.

I admire parents who are committed to their kids and enjoy watching the world through young eyes. It's fun. But I also like that the kids go home to parents who love them and are committed to them 100%. I love being an "aunt". And if something happened and we had to raise a child, I think we'd be good at it, because we would work at it. But it isn't something we need to complete us.

 

[Sparkly_Not_Gaudy]

I'd reply with a big ol NUNYA. As in none of your business.

I think that too many couples who do not want children are pressured into having them by well meaning people. My sister and her husband did not want children, ever. She had one relative tell her what a great mother she'd make (for the bazillionth time) and she replied that she liked that line of thinking and that as a fitness and dance buff she would also be a fabulous stripper and she'd look into that, too. Shut that auntie up FOR LIFE! Though she did get daggars from my mom over it.

She is now in her 40s and they have a wonderful life, just the two of them, and no regrets.

Enjoy being newlyweds for a few years before you even feel the need to decide about kids! It is such a wonderful time!

 

[mrswahs]

FI and I are considering not having kids as well. If we do it will probably only be one, and we could very well adopt that one. We like our lives the way they are. It's just that simple. Selfish? Maybe. Is that our prerogative? Absolutely. We will be buying a house soon, and we're co-breadwinners, so one of us staying home with the kids wouldn't really be an option, and I also feel very strongly about having someone home with the children for the first 2 years of their lives. Whether my feelings for that are justified or not, it's what my mom did with me, she had good reason to, and she also had very good reason not to trust her newborn baby with a daycare.

As of right now, it just doesn't seem like something we could feasibly do. We also love the luxury of being able to travel whenever we want. We, just like you, don't have to do anything we don't want to!