Buying loose no cert diamonds?

[0carat]

Ok, here are the pics.

Left is a "bad" rock that the owner put on for reference 5 carat - VS2/I clarity/G colour

Middle is the 1.17 VS2/H colour - the one I want

Right is a 1.4 carat GIA certified SI1/D colour




This is the stone by itself.

 

[0carat]

Ok good news. I talked to the jeweler and they will talk to the consigner of the diamond and see if they agree to have it taken out of circulation so that it can get graded. If it gets a decent cut grade I will buy it and throw them an expensive bottle of wine.

They are trying to sell quick hence the price, but again I don't want to commit if it's crap. I spoke to GIA and it's $100 for the lab report and $15 for laser.

I will keep everyone posted.

 

[stone-cold11]

Cut is no good, and color is not graded face up.

 

[0carat]

Cut is no good, and color is not graded face up.

Please elaborate, I don't understand.

 

[0carat]

Ok update #2

Consigner wants to sell before christmas, so sending to GIA can't happen. Great

Option two, have a GIA graduate gemologist do the grading, including % & angles. I can have that done by Tuesday.


I told her straight up that while that's great, I want to know everything about the gemologist and if they are in good standing (does that even make sense)? I am thinking out loud here, I am an Accountant and if any potential client wanted to use me they can contact the society and check if I am in good standing, is there such thing for GIA gemologists?

If i was to get the specs and I am happy with them, I bought the diamond, then had it sent to the GIA lab for grading/laser and it's off (significantly) can I hold the GIA graduate appraiser accountable? I understand it could be off a little bit as this is a science in a way, but if I was basically lied to just to buy it can I have recourse?

Thanks.

 

[LGK]

Totally, totally pass on it if you care about cut. It's definitely not going to get a good cut grade. That table facet is so big you could land an aircraft carrier on it. And the symmetry is... well, like most diamonds were cut 20 years ago (and plenty lower quality diamonds are today), splintery and random.

And it looks like it's lower in color than an H, to me. Significantly lower. Like at least a J, possibly K or more. It shouldn't be that much obviously more tinted compared to a D face up (and good lord, who even knows if that other diamond is truly a D, either?) Face up a true H and a true D are going to be very, very hard to see much difference in the sort of pic they sent. In this case, you can see a very large, very visible difference in color... and that only really starts showing face up, in pictures, when a diamond is *quite* low in color, generally speaking.

Sorry!

At least the seller provided some moderately useful pics, though a straight on high res image would've been ideal, you can still see the table facet- that's the largest facet, the one on top, if you don't already know that, lol- is ginormous. I'd guess this is an older stone, maybe from the '60s/'70s, just guessing from the type of cutting.

 

[0carat]

Totally, totally pass on it if you care about cut. It's definitely not going to get a good cut grade. That table facet is so big you could land an aircraft carrier on it. And the symmetry is... well, like most diamonds were cut 20 years ago (and plenty lower quality diamonds are today), splintery and random.

And it looks like it's lower in color than an H, to me.

Sorry!

At least the seller provided some moderately useful pics, though a straight on high res image would've been ideal, you can still see the table facet- that's the largest facet, the one on top, if you don't already know that, lol- is ginormous. I'd guess this is an older stone, maybe from the '60s/'70s, just guessing from the type of cutting.

Actually I have a bigger resolution image. What does all that mean about the cut and table facet being big (i didn't know that's bad thing, if it is, why)? Is it a significant (visible to the eye) difference?

I will post a zoomed in pic, one sec.

BTW, LGK, I REALLY appreciate the unbiased opinion. Thank you.

Does anyone know what a stone like this retails for on a place like whiteflash?

 

[0carat]

 

[slg47]

if you are looking for an ideal cut diamond I am afraid this is not it. not worth sending to GIA in my opinion

 

[0carat]

if you are looking for an ideal cut diamond I am afraid this is not it. not worth sending to GIA in my opinion

Why do you say that, how can you guys tell the cut just from the pictures?

Based on this, where does this diamond stand cut wise on a scale of IDEAL -------GOOD-------POOR ?

 

[stone-cold11]

Cut is no good, and color is not graded face up.

Please elaborate, I don't understand.

Large Table, leakage present, you can see the skin through the stone.

Color grading is done from the side, table down, as the reflection of the stones can mess with your color sense.

 

[0carat]

Cut is no good, and color is not graded face up.

Please elaborate, I don't understand.

Large Table, leakage present, you can see the skin through the stone.

Color grading is done from the side, table down, as the reflection of the stones can mess with your color sense.

Thanks, what's your best guess on the cut quality that this thing should have?

Leakage is bad because that it means it won't sparkle in those spots correct?

Thanks

 

[LGK]

Well, the proportions on a modern RB cut are fairly stringent in terms of what's considered an ideal or excellent cut. (There's undoubtedly some info up there under the knowledge tab, if you are curious.) The table facet is one factor in that. This diamond, you can see in the pics, has a freaking HUGE table facet. Which is way, way outside of what would be considered a GIA excellent or AGS ideal cut. And the symmetry is all random and splintery looking, which is again, very far outside of what is usually considered an excellent/ideal cut.

In terms of real life performance? Well, that's a whole nother can 'o worms. Sure, you can decide that for a nice price, cut isn't all that important. This stone is probably very low in terms of returning rainbow/fire sparkle, you'll most likely see more white light return. How much? No way to tell, without more info.

The color being soooooo far off from what they're saying, though, would kind of negate any kind of a deal you'd be getting though. So I'd scrap the idea and look elsewhere. It's not worth pursuing.

I know, it is easy to get attached to the idea of one particular diamond when you're just starting to look. But round brilliants are really common and you can definitely find a nice one for your budget, whether used or new.

As to how you can tell about cut from a few pics? well, stare at enough pics of diamonds and you rot your brain... ooops, I mean you can tell some fairly basic stuff about cut just from some face-on pics.

In terms of cut? I wouldn't buy this stone to wear, not even close. Sorry! It is way way way outside of idea/excellent proportions.

ETA: You're more than welcome! Hopefully this is some small help in your search.

Also, honestly, you might look at some diamonds of rather average cut and compare them right next to an ideal. because, I'll be honest, some diamonds with really odd proportions/mediocre cut can be *pretty enough* if the price is right, y'know? It's just a matter of finding the one that's really well priced, and deciding if it's worth it. I've owned some antique stones (a transitional cut to be exact, c.1930s) with strange proportions- a really big table like this diamond- and I decided I really didn't care for the look after living with it for a few months. Mine was very low on fire return, especially since it was a shallow stone all the way around. It was *bright*- like a freaking flashlight- but not much fire at all. I would kind of guess this diamond would be similar.

 

[0carat]

In terms of real life performance? Well, that's a whole nother can 'o worms. Sure, you can decide that for a nice price, cut isn't all that important. This stone is probably very low in terms of returning rainbow/fire sparkle, you'll most likely see more white light return. How much? No way to tell, without more info.

I thought cut IS the number one most important factor to make the diamond sparkle.

When you say it's low in terms of returning rainbow/fire sparkle, I am assuming that's a bad thing. Sorry I am not sure what it's supposed to return. WHite light is bad then?

The color being soooooo far off from what they're saying, though, would kind of negate any kind of a deal you'd be getting though. So I'd scrap the idea and look elsewhere. It's not worth pursuing.

When you are looking at the diamond, how can you tell the colour is off, what are the obvious give away signs?

In terms of cut? I wouldn't buy this stone to wear, not even close. Sorry! It is way way way outside of idea/excellent proportions.

If it's not ideal/excellent, where would it stack up in its current state. What do you think is a fair price for something like this.

I am not set on buying it, but you did mention real life performance and I think that's what I am most most concerned with. If we keep it strictly numerical, this rock is realistically half the price of what an excellent cut 1.17carat is on BN or WF.

This rock vs. excellent rock is 100% more money, is the performance of the excellent rock also twice as good? If it's not, how much better is it. I know this is a very layman approach to this, but again I am trying to keep this logical. I am not going to walk around showing off the specs of my GIA report right, it's the stone's performance in real life that matters the most to me.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I would not pay $4k for that diamond, because I can tell from the photo it is not cut to the standards I appreciate. I can tell from the facet pattern and the amount of darkness showing face up. My guess is it will not be a very lively diamond.

I would much rather buy a diamond that was smaller and well cut/ideal for my $4k.

Something you need to understand is that the diamond market is not full of great deals. People in the industry, including this vendor, are very savvy about what a diamond is worth. Being "second hand" does not matter at all in the diamond industry when it comes to loose stones, and so IF that diamond was really an H VS1 then the vendor would benefit from sending it to GIA for a cert because he could charge a lot more money for a certed stone, Polish it up, sell it as new perhaps. Or sell it as used with a cert.

But this vendor knows darn well it will not come back with a good grade from GIA and he can get more money with it uncerted selling it to some poor sap who does not do their homework . I bet the cut is in the good range, and that is a bit of a kiss of death. It could also be treated or have a small chip or some other factor that the vendor knows about and knows will really hurt its value if he gets a cert for it. He knows this, thus his refusal to send it to GIA. The idea that he "wants to sell it before Christmas" is BS. Think about it -- if he knew it would come back with a good cert, then he HAS sold it by Christmas -- to you! It is sales BS and you should nto fall for it.

There are no DEALs and when a price is too good to be true -- it is. That is what we have all been telling you. You do not seem to like that feedback and seem to be getting testy when we give it, but that will not change the fact that there are some fishy red flags here and you will not get good value this way.

You have a healthy budget. Why not look to get good *value* for your money instead of trying to "beat the system" looking for some super deal?

 

[Dreamer_D]

Cut is no good, and color is not graded face up.

Please elaborate, I don't understand.

Large Table, leakage present, you can see the skin through the stone.

Color grading is done from the side, table down, as the reflection of the stones can mess with your color sense.

Thanks, what's your best guess on the cut quality that this thing should have?

Leakage is bad because that it means it won't sparkle in those spots correct?

Thanks

Stone is a man of few words He means that the stone will not show life and sparkle because of the leakage where the light is not being returned to your eye.

I would wager it is Good cut, but you cannot tell for sure form a still photo. We would need a lot more information. All we can tell you is that it is not ideally proportioned.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Ok update #2

Consigner wants to sell before christmas, so sending to GIA can't happen. Great

Option two, have a GIA graduate gemologist do the grading, including % & angles. I can have that done by Tuesday.


I told her straight up that while that's great, I want to know everything about the gemologist and if they are in good standing (does that even make sense)? I am thinking out loud here, I am an Accountant and if any potential client wanted to use me they can contact the society and check if I am in good standing, is there such thing for GIA gemologists?

If i was to get the specs and I am happy with them, I bought the diamond, then had it sent to the GIA lab for grading/laser and it's off (significantly) can I hold the GIA graduate appraiser accountable? I understand it could be off a little bit as this is a science in a way, but if I was basically lied to just to buy it can I have recourse?

Thanks.

A "Gia gemologist" is a relatively meaningless designation unfortunately for consumers. It is not a regulated body of professionaly to my knowledge, not the same was accountants are. The best way to know you have a good appraiser is to find someone with a good reputation and to check their credentials. There are a number recommended often on PS whom I would trust implicity. I would NOT trust a jeweler who is also a "appraiser" as that is not independent.

I do not think you can hold them accountable as it is their opinion and you paid for that. The only way to buy this stone is using the scenerio you originally proposed and which the vendor refused -- his refusal means he knows the stone will not come back as represented, in my opinion, and should be a red flag.

You could perhaps get in writing from the vendor that if you send it to GIA after and it is more than, say, 2 grades off then you ge ta refund, but good luck with that after the fact, especially cross border. I think it is too risky.

 

[Dreamer_D]

In terms of real life performance? Well, that's a whole nother can 'o worms. Sure, you can decide that for a nice price, cut isn't all that important. This stone is probably very low in terms of returning rainbow/fire sparkle, you'll most likely see more white light return. How much? No way to tell, without more info.

I thought cut IS the number one most important factor to make the diamond sparkle.

When you say it's low in terms of returning rainbow/fire sparkle, I am assuming that's a bad thing. Sorry I am not sure what it's supposed to return. WHite light is bad then?

No white is good too. You want a balance and some types of cuts will excel at fire and some at white light return, and being skewed to one or the other can be desirable to come people. But really, we cannot judge any of this from a photo. Neither can you. That is why you need an independent appraiser to see the stone in person

The color being soooooo far off from what they're saying, though, would kind of negate any kind of a deal you'd be getting though. So I'd scrap the idea and look elsewhere. It's not worth pursuing.

When you are looking at the diamond, how can you tell the colour is off, what are the obvious give away signs?
You really cannot judge color from a photo as lighting matters a lot. The stone does look more tinted that I would expect of an H, but that could just be its poor cut. Less light being returned means the diamond will look more "tinted", and it could be the leakage as the stone is picking up the color of the skin. As to how we know, well spend tonnes of time here, buy and own many different diamonds of different color, and you too can become familiar with diamond color

In terms of cut? I wouldn't buy this stone to wear, not even close. Sorry! It is way way way outside of idea/excellent proportions.

If it's not ideal/excellent, where would it stack up in its current state. What do you think is a fair price for something like this.

I am not set on buying it, but you did mention real life performance and I think that's what I am most most concerned with. If we keep it strictly numerical, this rock is realistically half the price of what an excellent cut 1.17carat is on BN or WF.

This rock vs. excellent rock is 100% more money, is the performance of the excellent rock also twice as good? If it's not, how much better is it. I know this is a very layman approach to this, but again I am trying to keep this logical. I am not going to walk around showing off the specs of my GIA report right, it's the stone's performance in real life that matters the most to me.

You need to go to a local store and ask to see a GIA poor or Good cut, and a GIA Ex and decide the value. For me, yes it is worth twice the price. What is the point of a diamond that is lifeless and dead (if indeed this stone is as poorly cut as I suspect)? That stone looks like an average commercil quality cut. This video will show you the difference. You stone is like the "common cut" one in the video most likely: http://www.vimeo.com/2281519

 

[0carat]

Well I've made up my mind.

I guess the problem is that I really can't beat the system, I am used to buying parts/modifications for my cars and motorcycle and sometimes deals come along. Unfortunately even if deals do come along I have no idea what to look for and I don't have the patience either. I've decided to skip out on this as I will have a hard time living with a piss poor cut diamond. I am going to buy from James Allen and sleep better at night.

Thanks to everyone for setting me straight

 

[Dreamer_D]

Well I've made up my mind.

I guess the problem is that I really can't beat the system, I am used to buying parts/modifications for my cars and motorcycle and sometimes deals come along. Unfortunately even if deals do come along I have no idea what to look for and I don't have the patience either. I've decided to skip out on this as I will have a hard time living with a piss poor cut diamond. I am going to buy from James Allen and sleep better at night.

Thanks to everyone for setting me straight

I think you made a good choice.

You can also get very good deals on diamonds at Excel and ID Jewely but they will need to call them in for you, but if you like a deal those are two good options that get good reviews on PS.

 

[0carat]

Ok, I just bought my diamond from James Allen. Customer service was AMAZING, I spent less than my anticipated budget of 8k and I am very content.


I spent some more time reading up on color and "real life" performance and I made up my mind on this guy right here:

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1339456.asp

Feel free to to leave feedback, I could return it if I don't like it.

 

[slg47]

that one looks great you may see some tint to the J color but I am betting you will be overwhelmed by the sparkle

 

[yssie]

that one looks great you may see some tint to the J color but I am betting you will be overwhelmed by the sparkle

congrats - it looks fantastic, and it's always so nice to come in *under* budget

 

[0carat]

From the reading I did, apparently the colour difference should be hard to distinguish, but again it's something that I will have to decide once I get the diamond.

Aside from that, I'd like to thank everyone for their input, you basically saved me from getting ripped off. If you are ever in Toronto, let me know, I owe some people beers.

 

[slg47]

yes I think you should be fine unless you are comparing it to D colored diamonds or you are expecting it to look super icy white. there are lots of beautiful J color diamonds out there, here are some pictures

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/j-color-stones-in-platinum.24731/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/j-color-stones-in-platinum.24731/[/URL]

please post pics when you get it and tell us what you think!

 

[LGK]

Yay, I'm so glad you found something great from JA! It looks like a lovely diamond BTW

(My husband commandeered my computer, so I am glad Dreamer answered your questions, I wasn't ignoring you promise )

You did good. I hear ya on hating to buy at full retail. It is tough with jewerly- the deck is definitely stacked against you, and if you just want to get something that's beautifully cut and be done, you did the best thing IMO. It takes a lot of patience and education to really know what is a good deal secondhand and what isn't- it's fun, but time consuming and deals are few and far between. And there's a *lot* of mis-graded badly cut stuff out there, unfortunately!

 

[WinkHPD]

Totally, totally pass on it if you care about cut. It's definitely not going to get a good cut grade. That table facet is so big you could land an aircraft carrier on it. And the symmetry is... well, like most diamonds were cut 20 years ago (and plenty lower quality diamonds are today), splintery and random.

And it looks like it's lower in color than an H, to me. Significantly lower. Like at least a J, possibly K or more. It shouldn't be that much obviously more tinted compared to a D face up (and good lord, who even knows if that other diamond is truly a D, either?) Face up a true H and a true D are going to be very, very hard to see much difference in the sort of pic they sent. In this case, you can see a very large, very visible difference in color... and that only really starts showing face up, in pictures, when a diamond is *quite* low in color, generally speaking.

Sorry!

At least the seller provided some moderately useful pics, though a straight on high res image would've been ideal, you can still see the table facet- that's the largest facet, the one on top, if you don't already know that, lol- is ginormous. I'd guess this is an older stone, maybe from the '60s/'70s, just guessing from the type of cutting.

As far as the cutting goes, it is obvious that this stone is not a well cut diamond. Here is a picture of a well cut diamond to illustrate the difference, and it is easy to see the difference in the table sizes as related to the diameter of the diamond.

As for the color, the diamond in the picture I have posted is a D color, but you would not be able to tell that from the photo as it is picking up color from somewhere and does not look like a D. It simply is not possible to make a determination on color via a photograph. The photography simply imparts too many variables, and even if the color was correct on the monitor of the photographer, it might be significantly different on the monitor of the viewer.

Wink

 

[Dreamer_D]

From the reading I did, apparently the colour difference should be hard to distinguish, but again it's something that I will have to decide once I get the diamond.

Aside from that, I'd like to thank everyone for their input, you basically saved me from getting ripped off. If you are ever in Toronto, let me know, I owe some people beers.

And that diamond selection, in my opinion, is a fine example of *value* for your money. I own a J color diamond. Unless you are a really diamond afficionado, or your or the intended wearer have pre-conceived notions about the importance or meaning of diamond color, then you will be very happy with this choice.

 

[MyDiamondSparkles]

Oops...sorry I was way behind in emails this morning and came into the post where yuo were stil thinking of buying an uncertified diamond online.

I just got to pipe in and say, make SURE it has a return policy, get it in writing, if not talk the seller into one or walk away.

Although the photos seem to be okay, nothing and I mean nothing is like seeing the diamond in person.

May I share my experience with you?

I made the mistake of purchasing a diamond online with no certification. I based my purchase on photos much like yours and the seller's stated grading of the diamond. What a mistake! Good thing it had a return policy because the diamond in the photos looked beautiful and the price was way low...so I jumped on it. When the diamond was sent to me it was very sparkly indeed...just like in the photos. But the ideal cut of the diamond and it's flashy brightness hid the fact that it was inlcuded with tons and I do mean tons of black carbon spots (2 BIG ones and tons of small ones to numerous to count--like 100 or even 500 of them)--which the seller never mentioned. Seriosuly, the diamond looked like someone had sprinkled it with a good dose of pepper! It was hideous and because of all the black carbon the diamond appeared gray, except for under bright lights which is what the photo was taken under.

I took it to a GIA/ AGS appraiser who told me it was AT LEAST an I3!! Again not at all what the seller had stated it was. I learned my lesson the hard way....I shipped the diamond back to the seller this morning. The whole experince has been somewhat dissappointing bordering devastating.

Never and I do mean NEVER will I buy a diamond without a GIA/ AGS appraisal and a good return policy.

MyDiamondSparkles