CAD Concerns with Custom Ring Design - Thoughts?

[manhattan_mined]

Hi, all!

My partner and I are in the process of creating a custom design based off of a ring we fell in love with several years ago. We first started the process with a small shop that, after 3-4 weeks, was able to produce a CAD for our ring that was super close to what we were going for. Unfortunately, they were not as strong with the fabrication portion of the ring, so we decided to work with another local company.

The company that we're now working with is considered a top shop in NYC for custom designs, but the experience has been...rough. They charged the most out of anyone in NYC and justified their pricing based on the design process and fabrication capabilities. They told us to wait 1-2 weeks for the first CAD, and after a week, they sent us what they are calling an "unfinished rendering as update." They said that they only needed to make "minor tweaks" to it before sending the first CAD in two or so days. This pre-CAD looks extremely rough compared to the CAD we obtained from the first company (the small shop). Heck - it looks even rougher than the first attempt the small shop made in creating the CAD.

After expressing our concerns, the design team explained that the pavé setting and prong details are added by had and would not be in any of the CAs they produce. They're simultaneously assuring us that the final ring will look like the images and videos we sent their team. After we continued to express hesitation, their team said that most of the details couldn't be reflected in a CAD, even down to the look of the prongs atop the center diamond. That's when we sent them the CAD renderings that we'd received from the small shop, which did have nearly all the minutiae, which the new company has left unaddressed. We sent them to demonstrate that, while we understand that not all details will be reflected, there's still quite a lot that should (and can) be. They're now saying that "there are many adjustments to be made" to their pre-CAD update and explained that, "in their opinion, the beauty in these special details cannot always be captured in a computer design."

Given the pictures below, what are your thoughts?

1) The ring we are going for:

View attachment 958337. View attachment 958344 View attachment 958336. View attachment 958338



2) The CAD we created with the small shop:

View attachment 958339View attachment 958341View attachment 958342View attachment 958340
3) The "pre-CAD" we received from the new company:


View attachment 958346View attachment 958347View attachment 958348View attachment 958349


Thoughts?

 

[lovedogs]

Can you actually upload pics to your post? Most of us won't download photos

 

[manhattan_mined]

So odd - I uploaded the pics to my post originally, but let me try again.

 

[manhattan_mined]

1) The ring we are going for:

.

2) The CAD we created with the small shop:


3) The "pre-CAD" we received from the new company:

 

[Rfisher]

I think there’s no way for us to have much thoughts on anything regarding what an unknown jeweler will or will not be able to produce what kind of results by looking at CADS or renderings.

I also think you are borrowing trouble by telling jeweler #2 that their cads aren’t as sophisticated and detailed as jeweler #1 did, even tho jeweler 1 couldn’t produce the results you were looking for and are now asking jeweler 2 to do.

cad methodology between vendor to vendor differs so much - it shouldn’t matter anyways.

what matters more (imo) is seeing the current jewelers finished final products to see the work they have already done. Hopefully and ideally rings that are similar in style to what you are wanting them to produce. Real pictures -not renderings- or seeing in person.

 

[manhattan_mined]

I do agree that CAD methodology differs from vendor to vendor - the issue is that this new vendor (jeweler 2) is charges extensively for both design and fabrication; so we'd expect that the design be much closer to the actual ring.

We didn't mention or show the CADs from jeweler 1 until jeweler 2 tried to claim that the technical specs we were requesting weren't able to be reflected in a CAD in general. We wanted to make it clear that we were familiar with CADs (I also have a parent who uses AutoCAD to create custom designs for furniture). The only reason we didn't go through with jeweler 1 is because of production issues -- not design issues. The physical production was a bit shaky, which was such a bummer. It got to the point where reworking the ring would've cost a lot more, so we decided to try a new jeweler. Also, jeweler 1 wasn't as accessible (they're not based in NYC and we wanted easy access for maintenance).

The current jewelers' final products are great, and many of them involve complex designs - but they're very different from our ring. Upon getting our mock photos and videos in our initial consultation, jeweler 2 kind of paused and noted that they hadn't made a ring like it before, so it was certainly new territory. Jeweler 1 had one ring in their portfolio that had some similarities to our ring, which is why we were so excited to work with them.

We even pitched the idea of jeweler 2 at least drawing the ring from different angles in lieu of a CAD, if it was easier. We're still waiting to see what they have to say.

Given that this ring isn't anything close to the rings in the portfolio of jeweler 2, we are way more focused on the quality of the CAD than on what the final product might look like. That's why I'm trying to get a sense of whether Jeweler 2's CAD is decent.

 

[lovedogs]

I think there’s no way for us to have much thoughts on anything regarding what an unknown jeweler will or will not be able to produce what kind of results by looking at CADS or renderings.

I also think you are borrowing trouble by telling jeweler #2 that their cads aren’t as sophisticated and detailed as jeweler #1 did, even tho jeweler 1 couldn’t produce the results you were looking for and are now asking jeweler 2 to do.

cad methodology between vendor to vendor differs so much - it shouldn’t matter anyways.

what matters more (imo) is seeing the current jewelers finished final products to see the work they have already done. Hopefully and ideally rings that are similar in style to what you are wanting them to produce. Real pictures -not renderings- or seeing in person.

Agree completely

 

[lovedogs]

I do agree that CAD methodology differs from vendor to vendor - the issue is that this new vendor (jeweler 2) is charges extensively for both design and fabrication; so we'd expect that the design be much closer to the actual ring.

We didn't mention or show the CADs from jeweler 1 until jeweler 2 tried to claim that the technical specs we were requesting weren't able to be reflected in a CAD in general. We wanted to make it clear that we were familiar with CADs (I also have a parent who uses AutoCAD to create custom designs for furniture). The only reason we didn't go through with jeweler 1 is because of production issues -- not design issues. The physical production was a bit shaky, which was such a bummer. It got to the point where reworking the ring would've cost a lot more, so we decided to try a new jeweler. Also, jeweler 1 wasn't as accessible (they're not based in NYC and we wanted easy access for maintenance).

The current jewelers' final products are great, and many of them involve complex designs - but they're very different from our ring. Upon getting our mock photos and videos in our initial consultation, jeweler 2 kind of paused and noted that they hadn't made a ring like it before, so it was certainly new territory. Jeweler 1 had one ring in their portfolio that had some similarities to our ring, which is why we were so excited to work with them.

We even pitched the idea of jeweler 2 at least drawing the ring from different angles in lieu of a CAD, if it was easier. We're still waiting to see what they have to say.

Given that this ring isn't anything close to the rings in the portfolio of jeweler 2, we are way more focused on the quality of the CAD than on what the final product might look like. That's why I'm trying to get a sense of whether Jeweler 2's CAD is decent.

I don't think the cad from jeweler 2 is bad. But I'm concerned if they don't have anything in their portfolio with twisted shanks and/or pave.

 

[molecule]

After the first experience, I would probably have just gone to the original vendor, JannPaul. Custom is difficult

 

[manhattan_mined]

We wanted to go with JannPaul and started conversations with them. They have a strict policy of not using diamonds sourced from outside their team, though, and we’d already paid for our diamond. And their quote all-in, even with the purchase of one of their lab diamonds, was nearly the cost of our wedding, so we sadly couldn’t justify working on it with them. That’s when we went to Jeweler #1.

JannPaul is incredible, though, and I hope to come by enough money in the future to work with them on a custom piece.

 

[Rfisher]

@manhattan_mined

Did you change centerstones between jeweler 1and jeweler 2?

The renderings look to have two completely different sized centerstones?

 

[manhattan_mined]

@manhattan_mined

Did you change centerstones between jeweler 1and jeweler 2?

The renderings look to have two completely different sized centerstones?

No - we didn’t change them at all.

 

[Rfisher]

No - we didn’t change them at all.

Huh. Then one of them didn't/ isn’t using your size centerstone for the rendering. Which causes problems with perception of what’s going to be produced.



Edited to add
Any chance you’d share pictures of the ring from jeweler 1 and point out what you didn’t like?

 

[manhattan_mined]

Huh. Then one of them didn't/ isn’t using your size centerstone for the rendering. Which causes problems.

Agreed. The size of our diamond is on the larger size (much larger than average - nearly 4 carats). We told Jeweler 2 the size of the diamond, and they required that we give them our diamond before starting the design process. We hesitantly did so, since they explained that they needed it to assist with the design process. It certainly doesn’t look like it helped much.

Jeweler 2 is now offering a full refund based on “creative differences” so we’re going to start this process from scratch again.

Any recommendations for jewelers in the U.S. that specialize in custom work?

 

[Rfisher]

Any chance you’d share pictures of the ring from jeweler 1 and point out what you didn’t like?

 

[Rfisher]

And regarding suggestion request on vendors to use - what’s your budget for the ring setting?

 

[manhattan_mined]

Any chance you’d share pictures of the ring from jeweler 1 and point out what you didn’t like?

I admittedly don’t feel comfortable sharing them (I didn’t feel comfortable putting up any pictures in this thread, but I realized that context was necessary). But the ring from jeweler 1 didn’t have the quality craftsmanship - and after requests for three or so tweaks to improve the quality, jeweler 1 refused to make more tweaks. We gave it all back in order to get our money back minus some labor costs.

 

[manhattan_mined]

And regarding suggestion request on vendors to use - what’s your budget for the ring setting?

The budget is flexible because it seems like an increase in cost hasn’t translated into an increase in quality. I’d feel more comfortable submitting RFPs and getting quotes, looking at portfolios, getting some assurances on what technical specs will be included on the CAD, etc. instead of throwing out a random number. Jeweler 2 was the most expensive quote out of maybe five or six quotes we’d obtained. Jeweler 1 was less than half the cost of Jeweler 2.

 

[lovedogs]

It's going to be hard to help you without pics of what you don't like or a budget.

 

[manhattan_mined]

I'm not sure how those two factors interact, but the pictures of what I don't like are simply pictures that substantially veer away from the sample pictures I provided. That's obviously subjective, but the CAD from jeweler 1 is about 95% accurate IMO, so it in no way substantially veers from the sample. The quote from jeweler 1 came in at $1800, so budget would be around $2000.

 

[lovedogs]

honestly, 2k should be more than enough. Are you using gold, or plat?

The setting is honestly relatively simple, so I'm confused about how jewelers are struggling with it

 

[lovedogs]

Example:

14K White Gold Helix Pavé Engagement Ring

A twisted Pavé shank provides a kaleidoscope of color and sparkle for a dramatic contrast to the luster and shine of the precious metal. Select the center diamond or gemstone of your choice to create your perfect engagement ring.

www.jamesallen.com

 

[yssie]

Oh boy.

So much to unpack here.

I’ll start by saying - @manhattan_mined, you are firmly at the point in your learning journey of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You know just enough to ask questions but you don’t actually know enough to judge the responses you receive, which is what’s created your frustration and uncertainty.

I commend you for recognizing this and asking for help.

However, understand that you do yourself and your design(er) quest no favours by refusing to answer the questions the experts here have for you. You may not see correlations and causations but they do, and trust me, everyone who has taken the time to respond to you knows more about fabrication than many jewellers. If you want to get the most out of PS you’re going to need to share photos and detailed descriptions of what didn’t work for you.

 

[yssie]

Now to your concerns.

No, the CAD from a more expensive vendor absolutely need not reflect more detail. The way this works:
1. A designer makes a CAD - a computer-aided design.
2. A wax mould is created using this CAD.
3. A metal cast is created using that wax mould.
4. The metal cast is finished by human hands.

A more expert manufacturer will be executing on more of the detail by hand after casting. They’re more likely to cast crudely and finish the majority of shape and stone mounting by hand. They’re more likely to cast in multiple parts, so as to get a beautiful finish all over all components.

So those fancy CADs you see? Sometimes they’re fancy because more of the detail is actually going to be executed in wax and cast into metal, yielding a less fine final product. Sometimes they’re fancy because the designer adds a bunch of stuff to make the customer feel warm and fuzzy looking at their CAD pics but none of those extra details will actually be cast - the cast (behind the scenes) will be crude and perfected by hand.

Obviously in the first case a “better” CAD isn’t desirable. And in the second case the fancy CAD may or may not reflect nuances of what the final piece will look like. But no, a not-fancy CAD doesn’t mean a not-excellent end result.

The best way to judge whether a vendor is well-suited to your project is that vendor’s portfolio.

 

[lovedogs]

Now to your concerns.

No, the CAD from a more expensive vendor absolutely need not reflect more detail. The way this works:
1. A designer makes a CAD - a computer-aided design.
2. A wax mould is created using this CAD.
3. A metal cast is created using that wax mould.
4. The metal cast is finished by human hands.

A more expert manufacturer will be executing on more of the detail by hand after casting. They’re more likely to cast crudely and finish the majority of shape and stone mounting by hand. They’re more likely to cast in multiple parts, so as to get a beautiful finish all over all components.

So those fancy CADs you see? Sometimes they’re fancy because more of the detail is actually going to be executed in wax and cast into metal, yielding a less fine final product. Sometimes they’re fancy because the designer adds a bunch of stuff to make the customer feel warm and fuzzy looking at their CAD pics but none of those extra details will actually be cast - the cast (behind the scenes) will be crude and perfected by hand.

Obviously in the first case a “better” CAD isn’t desirable. And in the second case the fancy CAD may or may not reflect nuances of what the final piece will look like. But no, a not-fancy CAD doesn’t mean a not-excellent end result.

The best way to judge whether a vendor is well-suited to your project is that vendor’s portfolio.

Much better said than I ever could, and 100% accurate.

 

[lovedogs]

The budget is flexible because it seems like an increase in cost hasn’t translated into an increase in quality. I’d feel more comfortable submitting RFPs and getting quotes, looking at portfolios, getting some assurances on what technical specs will be included on the CAD, etc. instead of throwing out a random number. Jeweler 2 was the most expensive quote out of maybe five or six quotes we’d obtained. Jeweler 1 was less than half the cost of Jeweler 2.

Wait, does this imply that jeweler 2 was asking $3600 for this setting??? That's pretty unreal unless we are talking about hand forged platinum from someone on par with Victor Canera.

 

[manhattan_mined]

honestly, 2k should be more than enough. Are you using gold, or plat?

The setting is honestly relatively simple, so I'm confused about how jewelers are struggling with it

This is how I’ve felt for weeks now. I just don’t understand why this design is so complicated - in my opinion, it’s not that complex! Jeweler 2 quoted us at nearly $5,000 before taxes, and at that point, my partner and I were just desperate and went with it in hopes that we’d be able to get what we needed and wanted. Big mistake. Anyway, to answer your other question, we are using platinum.

@yssie - I’ve answered every single question asked of me (except for posting photos of the fabrication from Jeweler 1). I’m not sure what else you want from me. I shared photos of what didn’t work (jeweler 2) and what was the minimum that would work (jeweler 1). That’s more than what most clients give, if we are being completely blunt here.

A ring that looks almost exactly like the sample ring is what I’m going for. It’s that’s simple. If it’s done using a CAD and casting, then fine - as long as the CAD has at least as much detail as the CAD from Jeweler 1. If it’s handmade, then fine - but I’d need to see a portfolio with similar rings (i.e. rings with twisted shanks).

I’ve already noted that the issue with Jeweler 1 was fabrication - poor craftsmanship because the shank wasn’t properly twisted, the prongs were uneven, etc.

Regarding focusing on the CAD, though, I 100% agree (and was already aware of the points you made). The primary reason I wanted a CAD from each of these jewelers was because there was some kind of hiccup with each of them. Again, Jeweler 1 had a ring in its portfolio with some similarities to ours, but they expressed a bit of hesitancy when we first approached them with our ring. Jeweler 2, who specializes in handmade pieces, didn’t have a ring like ours at all in its portfolio and similarly expressed some hesitancy with it our ring. Heck - back when my partner and I were diamond shopping over six months ago, a separate jeweler in the diamond district that’s similar to JannPaul w/r/t patented cuts expressed hesitancy with our setting and asked “couldn’t you just pick a simpler setting”?

So I hope you understand that the CAD thing is more about my experience showing the sample pics to different jewelers and getting similar reactions. I’m very aware of how this process works; these issues aren’t for a lack of knowledge. That also why we pitched drawings in lieu of a CAD from jeweler 2 - they explained that part of the super high cost was the design process, and given that they didn’t have a ring similar at all to ours in their portfolio, we wanted some kind of assurance that they would be comfortable creating this setting. You’d want detailed mock-ups if you were paying nearly $5,000 for this setting.

Hope this clears things up.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Ditto everything @yssie said and I’m very glad she explained all that so I didn’t have to! Pretty CADs are just pretty pictures. If you want a pretty ring you need to look at what they have done before.

 

[manhattan_mined]

Ditto everything @yssie said and I’m very glad she explained all that so I didn’t have to! Pretty CADs are just pretty pictures. If you want a pretty ring you need to look at what they have done before.

And that’s what my partner and I have been doing. For whatever reason, in New York City, I’m struggling to find one who has a similar design who will also take an outside ring (which I admit could be limiting our options).

 

[lovedogs]

5k for that setting!?!?!? That is insane, pure and simple. Using plat will increase cost, but not sure by how much