Calling all you PS lawyers

[Harriet]

Date: 5/20/2007 6:39:38 PM
Author: Fancy605
How was it being a newly married person and being in law school at the same time? I am asking because my fiance is going to be attending law school during our first years of marriage. A lot of people have said that it is great because you have a built in support system, but other people say it is straining on a relationship. I am just curious for some PS perspective.

I have no yet married, but was engaged through law school. It is straining because law school demands long hours and is highly stressful. In fact, my classmate ended up buying his wife a graduation present, not the other way around.I''m afraid you''ll have to exercise quite a bit of patience. Sorry if I''m scaring you.

 

[rainwood]

Harriet -

Here are some things (big and small) that I think may be useful for young women lawyers in a big firm practice. Keep in mind, however, that I''m a West Coaster so some of this may not translate to NYC to the same extent.

1. Decide what your goal is at the firm. Are you there to become a partner? Are you there to gain experience and contacts then transfer those to an in-house, government, smaller firm, or non-legal experience? Are you there to pay off student loans? All are valid, but require different strategies even as a young lawyer.

2. Find someone you want to emulate. The person needs to have a successful practice, but just as importantly should have personality traits close to yours and a lifestyle you have or want to have. In other words, if you are a quiet, methodical type drawn to a transactional practice, don''t pick someone who thrives on the rough and tumble of litigation. The role model doesn''t have to be female so much as have strengths that are the same as yours and a work/life balance that is close to the one you want to have SOMEDAY. Then figure out how they''ve been able to succeed and do the same to the extent it works and makes sense for you. If there isn''t anyone at the firm like that, you need to change your goals or place of employment or realize you''re going to have to be a trailblazer.

3. Realize you''re going to need to pay your dues. Hard work is necessary as is some of the tedious crap that gets thrown to young associates. Do it, do it well, and don''t bitch about it, but don''t let it all get dumped your way instead of being shared with your peers. Don''t be the one who ends up with all the scut work because you want to be "nice" or liked by everybody. If no one else at your level is doing it, you shouldn''t be either unless it''s somehow advancing one or more of your goals.

4. Pick your battles. I always catch flak about this one and some of it may be the vestiges of being a young female associate when there weren''t nearly as many as there are now, but be smart about what you choose to get upset or angry about. Develop a thick skin regarding criticism so that people don''t feel like they have to walk on eggshells if you haven''t done a great job. Better to ask and have them be brutally honest then feel like they can''t tell you for fear you''ll get upset or burst into tears. Lawyers are notoriously bad about giving criticism/feedback. We aren''t trained how to manage or supervise people so we tend not to do it very well. Don''t take it personally.

As for sexist, ill-advised comments, I found it more effective to diffuse them myself, often with humor, but not making a big deal about it. People will be watching you for your reaction, and how you deal with it. Not fair maybe, but true. And you don''t want to come across as whiny or weak. A humorous putdown or even a look sometimes was enough to make the other person look like a moron and my goal was achieved. Other people may disagree with this approach, particularly in law firms where people should know better, and believe you should take it up with HR or other official channels. I always preferred to handle it myself, but not everyone is comfortable doing that. And if there is physical or escalating behavior, having someone else intervene may be necessary. I never found myself in that situation.

5. Realize that law is a male-oriented profession. By that I mean the practice of law itself developed and is patterned on having been performed only by men. As a result, it is based on how men traditionally thought and handled things. Like litigation being a metaphor for battle rather than a logical and efficient way to resolve disputes. Or how lawyers developed clients by going to men''s clubs and playing golf. Law was also a male-dominated profession at one time so that the practice fit the majority of its practitioners. But that fit isn''t as good now that large numbers of women have entered the practice. Change is incremental and slow and frustrating. You can either work with that reality or drive yourself crazy. Again, I''m not saying it''s fair, but it is true.

6. Have a good, firm handshake. This partly flows from the whole male orientation thing. Most young women don''t understand the signal a handshake (or lack of one) sends. This is how men greet each other. And a lot of men aren''t sure what to do about shaking a woman''s hand. They will look to you for guidance. If you put your hand out, they will too. If you don''t, they won''t and there isn''t a substitute ritual because you''re not going to be giving them a hug or a kiss. Eliminate the awkwardness. Make sure you know how to shake someone''s hand with the appropriate firmness and offer your hand first. A small thing, but success is based on both the big and small.

7. Watch your speech patterns. I''ll probably get flak on this one too, but women often preface their statements with "I think" or "I believe" without realizing that men often interpret this as a lack of confidence in the statement to follow. Be sensitive to things like that. Women are often socialized to be less direct in their speech, using more words to say what they mean, and men often interpret this as not getting to the point quick enough or, worse, not having a point at all. I''m not a "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus," kind of person but having worked with men my entire career, this is how many of them think. To be successful in law, you''ll need men to listen to what you say. Do with it what you will.

8. Don''t rely on material rewards for satisfaction. This one is probably limited to big firm lawyers where the pay is high and the non-material rewards, if they come at all, may be a ways off. And this may be heresy on a site like Pricescope, but I''d advise you not to try to fix any career dissatisfaction by buying expensive stuff. It won''t make you happy, you''ll never be able to keep up with those around you because someone will always make more money, and you''ll reduce your options if you choose to or are asked to leave. Plus, you get used to having the best and it''s hard to go backwards. The temptations are great, seeing the bling, the fabulous houses/co-ops, condos, and the exotic vacations of the lawyers around you, but joining in means you''re spending away your options if big-firm practice turns out not to be your thing. Find some kind of activity/hobby that you like doing that isn''t related to buying stuff. In the long run, you''ll be happier knowing you''re banking that money instead of spending away your future to make the present bearable. This moratorium on spending doesn''t apply to non-depreciating investments, such as housing, if you''d be willing to sell and downscale if big-firm practice turns out not to be your preferred option.

Not everyone would agree with what I''ve said and law firms aren''t all the same, but this what all those years of practice taught me. YMMV.

 

[MsP]

... excellent thread.

I will be applying to law school in the fall but have been having cold feet after reading all these stories about unemployed lawyers. I am working on my masters in urban planning and have a bachelors in civil engineering. I would like to do some type of development regulation or land use law... possibly working for the state or possibly at a big development firm or maybe in house work for an engineering firm. I''m so worried about not being able to get a job but I think that I have the advantage of having a non-traditional undergrad degree and a masters which both support my final career goals. In the end, I know I''ll be able to get a job with my undergrad degree/masters but I''d hate to go through the trouble of law school and not be a lawyer.

 

[Harriet]

Rainwood,
Many, many thanks for such thoughtful advice. I will print it out and digest it. Do you mind if I share it with some of my female lawyer friends?

 

[onedrop]

Oh wow!! It''s so cool to find other lawyers on a diamond-related website!!! Add me to the bunch. I can''t say I hated law school because I had a lot of good memories during that period and I found that I did indeed learn alot. But I have to say that my bubble was burst about the profession early on. I had ideals about really making change a la Thurgood Marshall (my legal idol) in Brown v. Board of Ed. I learned early on, that arguing such a case is a true rarity in the legal field. And more disappointing was that I realized that lawyers were not as smart as I''d imagined. In my experience, most knew how to talk a good game but weren''t very well rounded if you will.

I wanted to practice in the Public Interest field after law school, and to that end I worked for Legal Aid in the city where I went to law school, which was a wonderful experience!!! However, I got tired of seeing such heart-breaking stories and not being able to really help due to funding. I have worked in a variety of capacities since, but now I work for the Fed''l Gov''t. At this point I have been in my current position almost 10 years, and for the first 4 or 5 years, I loved it. We had a regime change and re-adjustment of *focus* and things went down hill from there. Add in union-management issues, a RIF and well....it''s sometimes it''s hard to put on that smiley face when I am doing my job. Now, I can''t say I love being a lawyer, but I have seniority and I am allowed to work from home. At times I feel unfufilled and wish that I had gone ahead and pursued that Ph.D in Poli/Sci that I''d dreamed of, but I try to find little things in the job to keep me going.

I say all that to say...be sure that being a lawyer is really what you want. It can be a grueling 3 1/2 - 4 years (including the bar) and if you are not completely committed it can be miserable. You have a wealth of knowledge here...good luck!!!

 

[rainwood]

Harriet

Feel free to give my thoughts to anyone you think it might help.

I''ll also share 2 things on a positive note; one on how I dealt with a specific obnoxious lawyer and one benefit of having gone to law school and practiced law.

When I was a young associate, we had to work with whichever partners asked for assistance. The head of the litigation department was relatively short (several inches shorter than me), but had a huge ego and was a complete jerk to work for. A couple of the male associates were his anointed golden boys to whom he gave the best cases. Me? I got the dogs - the cases barking so loud you could hear them a mile away. I knew the situation was temporary because I wasn''t planning to be a full-time litigator or specialize in the type of work he did, but I also knew it would be unwise to refuse to work with him. Whenever he called and wanted me to come to his office, I made sure to reach into my credenza, pull out the tallest pair of high heels I owned, and put them on. I couldn''t control anything else, but I could control how much I towered over him. It drove him crazy, but it sure made me feel better!

For all those wondering about law school, I wanted to add that for all their faults, law school and practice have taught me to gather the relevant facts, analyze problems, and come up with options/solutions in an organized fashion I''d never have achieved otherwise. It''s a skill I take for granted, but when I''m around non-lawyers, they are amazed. "How do you do that?" they''ll ask, and I just look at them and wonder, "How else would you do it?" It just seems logical to me, but they think it''s some sort of advanced magic. Makes me feel good. And smart.

 

[rainwood]

Fancy -

I can''t really speak from the spouse''s point of view, but based on our experience, the spouse needs to be comfortable with the fact that the law student will be physically absent a lot. And mentally absent much of the time when they are home. I often had my mind on school and that didn''t happen in college for some reason. If I asked him, my guess is that''s what my husband would say bugged him the most.

And the spouse has to be comfortable with the fact that they can''t totally understand or share what their partner is going through. I''m sure that''s true for med school, grad school, etc. too. The upside is that you''re not both going through that academic rollercoaster at the same time so the spouse can bring some perspective and glimpse of the non-law school world when needed.

I do think that law school was easier than the first few years of practice because to some extent a law student can pick their level of commitment because the only person affected is them. Once clients are involved, you can''t choose to slack off when you''d like because someone else''s well-being is at stake. And work always comes up at the most inconvenient times. I obsessed and worried as a practicing lawyer much more than as a law student. How bad this is depends on what type of law is being practiced, any workaholic or perrfectionist tendencies, what other draws there are on that person''s time, etc.

But it is doable. I''m still happily married to the same guy and it will be 29 years in August. So we came out okay.

 

[Harriet]

Rainwood,

I will pass your advice along. I am sure it will be much appreciated.

I had to laugh about your heels story. Unfortunately, it is not going to work for me at 5"3.

One more question, if I may -- Are there any things I should keep in mind as (i) a foreigner; (ii) a minority; and (iii) someone older than average (I spent time in a graduate programme).

My apologies for the barrage of questions.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 5/20/2007 8:00:43 PM
Author: MissPrudential
... excellent thread.

I will be applying to law school in the fall but have been having cold feet after reading all these stories about unemployed lawyers. I am working on my masters in urban planning and have a bachelors in civil engineering. I would like to do some type of development regulation or land use law... possibly working for the state or possibly at a big development firm or maybe in house work for an engineering firm. I''m so worried about not being able to get a job but I think that I have the advantage of having a non-traditional undergrad degree and a masters which both support my final career goals. In the end, I know I''ll be able to get a job with my undergrad degree/masters but I''d hate to go through the trouble of law school and not be a lawyer.

I woeked as the legal advisor for the Rutgers Bloustien school''s urban planning department in NJ-- I don''t think that you will have too much trouble finding a job as long as you keep your grades up. Law and urban planning are a good combo. I saw many jobs that needed that particular combination....

Also if you are interested in legislative bill drafting (I was... and still am) there is a market for that particular mix of degrees in that field too. Even on the federal level.

Good luck!

 

[rainwood]

Harriet -

I wouldn''t worry about being older. If anything, it''s an advantage.

I can''t speak personally about being from another country or being a minority. One of my closest friends at the firm, however, was of Japanese-American descent and would somtimes get frustrated at the stereotypes of Asian women that some people, including clients, seemed to hold. If you believe that might be an issue for you, my advice about the handshake and speech patterns may be particularly useful, as well as not letting people give you (or assume you''ll take) all those tasks that no one else seems to want and for which there is little reward or credit. Once a pattern like that gets established, it''s hard to break.

In the long run, there is no greater advantage than being very good at what you do.

 

[Harriet]

Date: 5/20/2007 10:43:16 PM
Author: rainwood
Harriet -

I wouldn''t worry about being older. If anything, it''s an advantage.

I can''t speak personally about being from another country or being a minority. One of my closest friends at the firm, however, was of Japanese-American descent and would somtimes get frustrated at the stereotypes of Asian women that some people, including clients, seemed to hold. If you believe that might be an issue for you, my advice about the handshake and speech patterns may be particularly useful, as well as not letting people give you (or assume you''ll take) all those tasks that no one else seems to want and for which there is little reward or credit. Once a pattern like that gets established, it''s hard to break.

In the long run, there is no greater advantage than being very good at what you do.

Rainwood,
Thank you yet again.
Why do you hold that being older is an advantage?
I will try my best to excel in my area. It helps that I love it.

 

[rainwood]

Harriet -

Being older has the potential of being an advantage because you bring more experiences and knowledge to the profession than if you''d gone straight from college to law school. That usually comes in handy.

 

[Miscka]

So much good insight!!!

Neatfreak, what do you plan on doing after school? And can you tell me more about the "complete funding" that is not uncommon? Is that through your school, and how did you find it? Hope thats not too personal!

Lulu, thanks for your post. I sometimes am afraid I fall into that "expect myself to be a professional" category.

. And the debt factor is HUGE. I do not have family financial support at this point. I would be going to an in-state school but cannot live at home to do that. I want to go because I think it will expand my options for the future.

Rainwood-Your post was so thought out and really helped. I have very similar thoughts on the socratic method, it scares me but I know it will force me to be prepared, and I have some of those slacker tendencies. Unfortunately, I was able to do well in school with minimal effort, so law school would be a whole new ball game for me. I don''t know very much about Law Review, can you please explain? Also I have been thinking about my comment about arguing. I should explain. I enjoy convincing, and I enjoy thinking my way through a point of logic, and doing that quickly is a skill I do have, though I am pretty sure sometimes my BF wished I didn''t, lol. I actually am not a fan of confrontation...does that make more sense? I will also be taking time off, I have been out of school since December already.

Thanks so much everyone! I feel like I have a clearer idea now of what to expect, and that will help a lot when I am trying to decide my next step!!

 

[rainwood]

Miscka -

At least when I went to law school, there were two major "extracurricular" activities - law review and moot court. Law review or the law journal is a publication put out by the law school that contains academic articles by law professors and other legal scholars (not usually limited to the professors at that particular school) and articles or "notes" by the student members who make up the law review staff. As a staffer, you do the background checking and cite checking of the different articles to make sure the footnotes and other citations are right. You also have to choose a topic and write your own article. As a member of the editorial staff, you do the overall editing of the pieces as well as run the publication itself.

Different schools handle law review in different ways. Some schools require you to "grade on" which means that only the students with the top grades from their first year are invited to join the staff in their second year. Some schools allow you to grade on or write on by means of a writing competition. Some schools may only have the writing competition. The editorial board is typically third year students who are selected to be on the board by either the previous board or the faculty or some combination of both.

 

[JenniferB]

Miscka - What a loaded question you''ve asked! If I had to, I would do law school again. I didn''t LOVE it, but I didn''t hate it. I believe in the saying the first year they scare you to death, the second year they work you to death, and the third year they bore you to death. If you can make it past the first year, imho, you''ll be fine. Law school hones your writing skills, and as all the posts before mine say, good writing skills are never a bad thing. (Just expensive if that''s the only good thing that comes out of law school though lol)! If you have the opportunity, get on Law Review or a Journal, it is alot of work but a great resume booster, and some extra good cred on your writing skills. I joined a Journal second year and while it ate up some evenings in the library - it was also kind of fun.

The only thing I would do differently is maybe give myself a little time in between University and Law School. I graduated really early from my B.A. and went straight to law school. I had just turned 21 and was the second youngest person there (the other girl having my same scenario), which made me a little self-conscious, roaming about with people who had previously owned businesses, had other graduate degrees, owned a home, had kids, etc. I think one of the earlier posts mentioned something about having a little experience, even if it is a little. Conversely, if you go straight in like I did - you have the benefit of still "knowing how to study" as opposed to someone that has been out in the corporate world for 5 years after college and is jumping back in to a school/study environment.

Also, some schools have Masters Programs that overlap with law school, so if you decide law school is not for you, not ALL your classroom time is lost and you can apply it to one of the Masters Degrees offered, sometimes as a core requirement or an elective. (Where I went the overlaps that I knew of were Public Policy and Dispute Resolution). I enjoyed the Dispute Resolution classes, and think they are helpful no matter what your profession, and thus finished up my Masters while I waited for Bar results.

So on to the BAR

! That to me is the worst part of the whole process! I committed myself like a prisoner to Barbri and was their puppet, PMBR''s puppet too for that matter, and I passed the first time. Some of my friends, who did not treat it like a "job", and did not study like it was only going to be offered once, did not. I graduated in 2004 and some of my friends have taken it "every other time" in between life and their jobs to pay bills, still haven''t passed. That is a high price to pay for three years of schooling and lotsa $$$ for a J.D. after your name, and not Esq. if it is your aim to become a lawyer and not just have a higher degree.

Some basic advice - take a practice LSAT, or shortened version. They have books with old tests at any bookstore. It is not "like lawschool" or being a lawyer, but it is the patience and mental gymnastics that imo is required to do well in law school. I, as dorky as it may be, found those logic games fun. Is anyone with me on this one?

I worked with a mediator, that being the career that I wanted to pursue, and found it very enjoyable. I did smaller cases on my own, and while the numbers weren''t as fun to crunch, the people skills necessary and back and forth still were. I stopped working to plan the wedding, and now DH wants me to have a respite and think about what I am passionate about so I can jump in and be excited and not jaded in ten years. If that turns out to not be "lawyering" for me, I will not have regretted having gone to law school. To me, it is a degree you can bring almost anywhere, unlike a degree that is very narrow, such as a Masters in Marine Biology...that kind of boxes you in to that field (or ocean as the case may be hehe).

Side note, DH is a partner at a big law firm and he loves it. He works alot, and works hard, but enjoys it. He loves being a lawyer and doesn''t "want out." So it can exist! People that are lawyers that want to stay lawyers! I think, as many of the posts indicate, the people that are disappointed (idk if that is the right word for it) are the ones that were very idealistic. If you start law school wanting to be a female John Grisham protagonist, look like Angie Harmon, have mass-tort plaintiff attorney bucks, AND make a difference in the world and feel like you are effectuating great changes for human kind - one year after you get your diploma, I think you''ll be bummed. But if you know it is a job that can make some difference and help people that need it, that can''t help themselves - it won''t be a let down.

Rainwood - Thank you for putting such a long and thoughtful post up...I am sure all of us in here have read it at least 3x! I know I have. I love the story about your heels 1) because I also believe in controlling just what you can and making the most of it if you have to, and 2) because I know some people think lawyers are dowdy and boring and it''s some proof we are girly-girls too!

 

[Miscka]

I did take a practic e full-length LSAT through Kaplan during undergrad....and I thought it was fun too! You aren''t alone Jennifer