Can you forgive?

[missy]

Monnie, Please don't hold back. I am right there with you. And I'm pissed too. Should we forgive those big corporations and the government?
Hell NO. But we aren't going to let it eat away at us either. When it comes to the big businesses and government and politicians etc that type of dislike (IMO) doesn't hurt the same as personal issues but heck it still is messing up our whole country and world too.
Good for you for making a difference and doing what you can! I would love to find your food blog. Is there a way I can search for it that is not against the PS rules?

Hey Missy, I emailed Ella to see if I could give you some hints at search terms but she said it's a no-no. Sorry! Are you on Loupetroop, or FB?

Oh yes I am Monnie, good thinking! I will repost on loupe troop for you. Francesca is the photo I have there same as here. Thanks!
ETA:posted it on loupe troop under Other section.

I am also on FB..didn't even think of that.

 

[monarch64]

Thanks, Missy! I sent you a message.

 

[Trekkie]

Someone once told me that a colored woman will forgive and forget, but she'll never let you forget what she forgave. That is SO my mother, lol

Me? I just move on. No time in my life for drama. Hanging on to resentments is pointless, and essentially poisonous.

 

[hay joe]

Also, Hay Joe, why do you wrong others - or think you do? I'm very careful not to hurt others' feelings in the things I say and I've never bullied or harassed or been intentionally unkind to anyone in my life, ever. I don't start it, let's put it that way. I'm sure the majority of people are the same, including you. (Not counting the handful of people we all know who just seem bent on being as unpleasant as possible.) So why do you wrong people? I'm sure you actually don't!

My answer to the question, Can you forgive? was "Yes. The "wrongs against" others are more difficult." I meant it is more difficult for me to forgive those who have wronged others. My wife and I have cared for a little girl who would have her face held under water until she stopped crying for her missing mother, a little boy that had his knee, hand, foot, collar bone and arm (in 4 places) fractured by his father. (the list goes on and on) Those people, the people that harm children are the ones I find difficult to forgive. To be honest, I put very little effort into forgiving them even though I know I should.

That being said I am certain I have wronged others, mostly unintentionally but wronged all the same.

 

[december-fire]

Hay Joe,

I interpreted your initial response as it was intended. I find it difficult to let go of anger against people who have intentionally harmed loved ones or innocent strangers. I use the term 'let go of anger' because my definition of forgiveness is not something I can apply to those who deliberately harm or kill innocent people.

God bless you and your wife for the love and care you show these children who have suffered. I hope that their physical and emotional wounds heal, and they grow to understand that what happened to them was no fault of their own.

 

[hay joe]

Thank you.

 

[luv2sparkle]

I don't think I have a hard time forgiving people, but sometimes it's a repeated process. I don't forgive them because they deserve it. I do it for me. I don't want to hold on to the caustic emotions and become bitter. Just because I have forgiven them doesn't mean that I subject myself to them again or continue to take their bad behavior. Like the brother in law we don't see anymore, or my in laws that I don't speak on the phone to anymore. I also won't go to see them by myself. I am ok with that.

 

[arkieb1]

I think it depends entirely on what I am forgiving. Small irrelevant stuff sure. Big major life impact things, not so much....

 

[missy]

Also, Hay Joe, why do you wrong others - or think you do? I'm very careful not to hurt others' feelings in the things I say and I've never bullied or harassed or been intentionally unkind to anyone in my life, ever. I don't start it, let's put it that way. I'm sure the majority of people are the same, including you. (Not counting the handful of people we all know who just seem bent on being as unpleasant as possible.) So why do you wrong people? I'm sure you actually don't!

My answer to the question, Can you forgive? was "Yes. The "wrongs against" others are more difficult." I meant it is more difficult for me to forgive those who have wronged others. My wife and I have cared for a little girl who would have her face held under water until she stopped crying for her missing mother, a little boy that had his knee, hand, foot, collar bone and arm (in 4 places) fractured by his father. (the list goes on and on) Those people, the people that harm children are the ones I find difficult to forgive. To be honest, I put very little effort into forgiving them even though I know I should.

That being said I am certain I have wronged others, mostly unintentionally but wronged all the same.

Hay Joe, thank you for the explanation. I agree completely. Forgiving wrongs against oneself is easier than forgiving wrongs against others especially the most vulnerable beings children and animals. I completely echo December Fire's comments and wish you and your family all the best and lots of love and healing for a happy present and future.

I don't think I have a hard time forgiving people, but sometimes it's a repeated process. I don't forgive them because they deserve it. I do it for me. I don't want to hold on to the caustic emotions and become bitter. Just because I have forgiven them doesn't mean that I subject myself to them again or continue to take their bad behavior. Like the brother in law we don't see anymore, or my in laws that I don't speak on the phone to anymore. I also won't go to see them by myself. I am ok with that.

Exactly and same here. I let go of the negative feelings towards that person as best I can but I will not keep subjecting myself to them or their company. Stop the insanity and get rid of the toxicity. I have forgiven a certain family member on my dh's side but we never see her anymore nor even have any contact with her though we do have contact with the rest of her family as she is still a toxic person. This arrangement works for us.

 

[december-fire]

Can I forgive?

Absolutely!

We're all human, and do and say things that we may later regret. And sometimes things are misinterpreted.

So, if someone meant no harm and their words or actions were uncharacteristic of them then, of course, I'll forgive and forget. And I hope that others would forgive me for being human and at times using the wrong words, forgetting to do something, or whatever it is that upset them when I meant no harm.

However, if there is a consistent pattern of behaviour from a person that seems to indicate values that are in conflict with mine, that's different.

I saw the phrase 'Recover and Remember', as opposed to 'Forgive and Forget'.

For myself, when there is a clear, consistent pattern that demonstrates a lack of compassion, for example, then I'd apply the following:

Reassess, Recover and Remember

I'd discuss with the person to determine if I misunderstood their intentions or values.
I'd reassess my impression of that person.
Recover, as in let go of any hurt or anger (although harm against other people or animals falls into a different category), because the person is being true to their own particular values or motivations, and is demonstrating to me who they really are (as opposed to who I thought they were, or would like them to be).
Remember what kind of a person they are and, depending on the situation, avoid or minimize contact with them. If contact was necessary, I'd maintain an emotional distance (for lack of a better term).

In cases of intentional harm against innocent people or animals, action is required to prevent repeated abuse or harm.

 

[Queenie60]

I'm a pretty easy going person - let most things roll off of my back and believe in giving people a "pass" when they do something stupid. Certain things are difficult for me to let go of, depends on how severe they are. If someone intentionally tries to hurt my husband, child or myself - well that may be difficult to forgive.

 

[missy]

I’m bumping this thread up for new members and for long time members who might want to add their thoughts or chime in for the first time re this thread.

Can you forgive?
Can you forget?
Are they mutually exclusive?

Does it depend and if so on what does it depend?

 

[missy]

IMO forgiving helps you. The person doing the forgiving. So for that reason I always search my heart and try to forgive. My original answer remains the same for the most part.

I won’t forgive abuse towards animals or children.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

Really interesting topic Missy

My parents are a whole different kettle of fish. I think there is a lot of awfulness/crazy there so it's futile to either forgive or hold a grudge. I vent about them a lot but I think it is more just me processing my childhood as jarring snippets of it come back to me while I am raising my son.

I thought about it and am not sure how to answer. I don't feel like I've ever been wronged in a way that has required me to forgive someone. Lets hope it stays that way!

Sure there are little things in life. Like once Lil Sis dropped my favourite jade flower so I got super cross and she fled out of my house but after that I apologised and she bought me cake to apologise for dropping the ring.

Or the time Hubby bought ten kilos of sticky rice and accidentally broke a mug Lil Sis gifted me.

I get dramatic over stuff like that but it's certainly not forgive/grudge worthy.

 

[missy]

I try not sweating the small stuff @mellowyellowgirl so we’re on the same page there.

I forgive bigger transgressions because it helps me to do so. However I have trouble forgetting but imo that’s wise. I always say “fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me”.

Fortunately, despite my advanced age I can only think of two people who have hurt me to the point I had difficulty forgiving but I have successfully done so. Time does heal some wounds. Forgetting I won’t do so as to protect myself. But yes. Forgiving is easy when you look at it as helping yourself move forward. Upwards and onwards as the saying goes.

 

[GoldenTouch]

No...

 

[dk168]

I can hold a grudge forever and seldom forgive let alone forget.

However, I have definitely mellowed in my old age and am more forgiving nowadays.

DK

 

[missy]

No...

Yes. Exactly.

 

[missy]

I can hold a grudge forever and seldom forgive let alone forget.

However, I have definitely mellowed in my old age and am more forgiving nowadays.

DK

It’s the best way to live our life. We can’t control (the bad behavior of) others. But we have control over how we react and feel. But yeah while I forgive I will always remember. I explained my reasoning in a post above.

 

[dk168]

A side story as I find this amusing:

A good friend said to me recently that I like to be right all the time; and I responded that it is not that I want to be right all the time - I hate to be in the wrong!

That's was after he said I had done something incorrectly, so I went to check and confirmed I did what I was originally asked to do by him. I just missed out the additional tasks added afterwards which was not showing in the list I captured on my phone!

Going back to forgiveness.

There are only a handful of people whom I shall never forgive for the way they behaved towards me or my family.

I don't care what they are up to, and to put it crudely, I would probably p!$$ on them and then dial the emergency number if I found them on fire.

DK

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Yes
its part of healing the hurt and moving on
Don't let that petson hold you back

unless its a sporting wrong on my beloved Otago
then ill hold a grudge till the end of time

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

My answer to the question, Can you forgive? was "Yes. The "wrongs against" others are more difficult." I meant it is more difficult for me to forgive those who have wronged others. My wife and I have cared for a little girl who would have her face held under water until she stopped crying for her missing mother, a little boy that had his knee, hand, foot, collar bone and arm (in 4 places) fractured by his father. (the list goes on and on) Those people, the people that harm children are the ones I find difficult to forgive. To be honest, I put very little effort into forgiving them even though I know I should.

That being said I am certain I have wronged others, mostly unintentionally but wronged all the same.

You raise a good point

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

IMO forgiving helps you. The person doing the forgiving. So for that reason I always search my heart and try to forgive. My original answer remains the same for the most part.

I won’t forgive abuse towards animals or children.

Animals and children are innocence
I don't understand the terrible things that happen to either

 

[Karl_K]

Forgiving is about you, not the other person.

 

[123ducklings]

I practice forgiveness; an ongoing choice and part of the healing process for me. That doesn’t mean there aren’t boundaries or healthy changes moving forward in a relationship/situation.

Nickel Mines comes to mind: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...0-year-anniversary-pennsylvania-the-happening

 

[Myshinybestlife]

For the most part I forgive easily, but the process of forgetting any wrong done to me is a little complicated.
I have noticed over time, the details of the wrong done to me fades, and I can discuss it without the extent of emotion it used to evoke. I still don't think that equate to forgetting. For me forgiving and forgetting are intertwined and definitely not mutually exclusive.

 

[MamaBee]

I have a hard time forgiving people and I do hold grudges.

Me too...I let things slide if they apologize once. After that I can’t forgive and I do hold a grudge..

 

[kenny]

Can I forgive?
Of course I "can" forgive.
Forgiving is just another made up idea living only in a mind.
All 7+ billion of us humans "can" forgive.
Perhaps the ultimate proof is this woman forgiving Josef Mengele, aka the Holocaust's "Dr. Death" ...

Eva Mozes Kor (January 31, 1934 – July 4, 2019) was a Romanian-born survivor of the Holocaust. Along with her twin sister Miriam, Kor was subjected to human experimentation under the direction of SSDoctor Josef Mengele at the Auschwitz concentration camp in German-occupied Poland during World War II. Her parents and two older sisters were killed in the gas chambers at Birkenau; only she and Miriam survived.

Eva Mozes Kor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lots of brainwashed pious folks forgive everything, no matter what.
Certainly that's their right, People Vary and all ... blah blah blah.

A fine literary/Hollywood example is that meek sweet doormat character Melanie Hamilton in Gone With the Wind, portrayed by the wonderful actress Olivia de Havilland.

IMO such brainwashed folks have low self esteem so they let everyone treat them as a doormats because they think they'll go to heaven or get brownie points from those who notice, or some such whatevz.
A good psychotherapist might be able to help some of them.

But if the question was, "Do you forgive?"
My answer would be, it depends entirely on exactly what bad thing (s)he did.
I'd never forgive lovely folks like Hitler, Mengele, Tump, or my dad.

Could I for give them?
Of course, but IMO that is a broken question.
Would I?
Never.

 

[AllAboardTheBlingTrain]

I guess it depends. I try not to hold grudges, because I think anger/bitterness/resentment come back and hurt only yourself. But that doesn’t mean that I necessarily forgive the person who has committed those actions against me. It just means that I let it, and them, go.

For example - I was in a serious relationship when I was a lot younger with an emotionally/occasionally verbally abusive person for a long time. He could do no wrong in my eyes despite how miserable I was. Then when I finally left him, I cut him out of my life, but I still held a grudge for the way he treated me and it poisoned my own life and happiness. Eventually I learned to let it go. Now it’s just a fact of life, that XXX was abusive towards me, it’s not a judgment of the person he is. He reached out to me well after the fact to apologise and to see if we could have some semblance of a friendship. I was cordial, I felt nothing, but I also didn’t feel it was necessary to forgive him, because forgiveness to me implies saying “all is well, come back into my life”. So I told him that well, I accept that he felt remorseful, and I accept that he felt it was necessary to tell me that, but that I personally did not want to have him as a part of my life, wished him all the luck and success in the world, and ended that conversation.

So I’m not really quick to forgive beyond a point. True remorse is important, but so is the extent of betrayal, and the general pattern of behaviour. But if I cut the person out of my life I usually don’t forgive them even if they ask. I just let it go.

 

[missy]

Can I forgive?
Of course I "can" forgive.
Forgiving is just another made up idea living only in a mind.
All 7+ billion of us humans "can" forgive.
Perhaps the ultimate proof is this woman forgiving Josef Mengele, aka the Holocaust's "Dr. Death" ...

Eva Mozes Kor (January 31, 1934 – July 4, 2019) was a Romanian-born survivor of the Holocaust. Along with her twin sister Miriam, Kor was subjected to human experimentation under the direction of SSDoctor Josef Mengele at the Auschwitz concentration camp in German-occupied Poland during World War II. Her parents and two older sisters were killed in the gas chambers at Birkenau; only she and Miriam survived.

Eva Mozes Kor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lots of brainwashed pious folks forgive everything, no matter what.
Certainly that's their right, People Vary and all ... blah blah blah.

A fine literary/Hollywood example is that meek sweet doormat character Melanie Hamilton in Gone With the Wind, portrayed by the wonderful actress Olivia de Havilland.

IMO such brainwashed folks have low self esteem so they let everyone treat them as a doormats because they think they'll go to heaven or get brownie points from those who notice, or some such whatevz.
A good psychotherapist might be able to help some of them.

But if the question was, "Do you forgive?"
My answer would be, it depends entirely on exactly what bad thing (s)he did.
I'd never forgive lovely folks like Hitler, Mengele, Tump, or my dad.

Could I for give them?
Of course, but IMO that is a broken question.
Would I?
Never.

To your point Kenny I agree. Completely. Heinous crimes deserve no forgiving. And that hate doesn't poison me at all. IMO it is healthy to hate someone like Hitler. That is a different category than forgiving an ordinary person who perhaps just betrayed you and your friendship. That I can forgive but not forget. When it is IMO egregious but not at the level of a Hitler let's say.

I am with you in not forgiving heinous and atrocious acts. Completely agree.