Catholic Church Appears to Choose Darwin

[Momoftwo]

Date: 1/20/2006 1:35:05 PM
Author: part gypsy
I don''t agree with many of the stands of catholicsm, but do agree with the statement
''It only creates confusion between the scientific plane and those that are philosophical or religious.''

Religion is based on faith. Science is based on evidence. That is the difference and people who do not agree evolution exists it is because they feel belief in its existence is essentially forbidden or contradicted by their religious beliefs. The belief that there is is somehow not enough evidence for evolution, or that it is somehow faulty or ''wrong'' (because it has to be!) naturally follows, but it is not a scientific reasoning, it is emotional. I don''t know how I would feel if I was told something that my natural curiosity, intellect and explorations resounded in me was true, was wrong and that I would be alienated from God if I continued to believe in it. Fortunately, I was raised Greek orthodox, and though there were plenty of discussions about the spirit, in that community to go on to be a doctor, a physicist, or yes even an evolutionary biologist would be a proper and good use of ones god-given abilities.

I for one do not believe in evolution because it is just an unproven theory, totally scientifically unproven. That is scientific reasoning. A theory is just an idea til it is proven, hence, Darwinism is just an unproven idea since it has never been scientifically proven. It for me is a combination of faith and knowing scientifc proof does not exist. I also agree with the fact that I did not evolve from anything, especially an ape. The theory of evolution is full of flaws and dead ends so why is it still viewed as having any validity?

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/20/2006 1:44:13 PM
Author: Momoftwo

Date: 1/20/2006 1:35:05 PM

The theory of evolution is full of flaws and dead ends so why is it still viewed as having any validity?

Because, just like the Bible - that is YOUR interpretation. Could say the same thing about the interpretation of the Bible.

 

[partgypsy]

(my thanks about talkorigins.org)

A few words need to be said about the "theory of evolution," which most people take to mean the proposition that organisms have evolved from common ancestors. In everyday speech, "theory" often means a hypothesis or even a mere speculation. But in science, "theory" means "a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed." as the Oxford English Dictionary defines it. The theory of evolution is a body of interconnected statements about natural selection and the other processes that are thought to cause evolution, just as the atomic theory of chemistry and the Newtonian theory of mechanics are bodies of statements that describe causes of chemical and physical phenomena. In contrast, the statement that organisms have descended with modifications from common ancestors--the historical reality of evolution--is not a theory. It is a fact, as fully as the fact of the earth''s revolution about the sun. Like the heliocentric solar system, evolution began as a hypothesis, and achieved "facthood" as the evidence in its favor became so strong that no knowledgeable and unbiased person could deny its reality. No biologist today would think of submitting a paper entitled "New evidence for evolution;" it simply has not been an issue for a century.
- Douglas J. Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed., 1986, Sinauer Associates, p. 15

 

[Momoftwo]

I can find articles also that argue my point:

http://www.darwins-theory-of-evolution.com/

In particular, scroll to the last paragraph "Darwin's Theory of Evolution-A Theory in Crisis".

And one more:

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/top.htm

The opinions I hold are held by a great many people. They are certainly not just my own by a long shot. For all the open minded people who boast here to being so, I see a lot of closed minds to faith. I also don't interpret the Bible, I read it and take it as it is.

 

[partgypsy]

Momoftwo
One things I can predict (not based on science, but on experience

), no amount of evidence I can provide to you will lead you to change your mind about this subject matter because your belief is based on faith, not evidence. Since it is not based on evidence, no amount of evidence would sway you.

Suffice to say, there is no controversy about evolution. The only controversy exists in the minds of the creationists.

For those who want to learn more evolution from a mainstream scientific perspective, I recommend talkorigins.org

Evolution is something that exists, regardless how many people believe or do not believe in it, in the same way the continent of the Americas exists before westerners suddenly "discovered" it.

 

[MINE!!]

Date: 1/19/2006 10:17:01 AM
Author: AGBF



The wording in The Nicean Creed is:


'We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.'


(No 'Roman'!)


Deb

The 'catholic' in this creed does not mean the Catholic church. It is quite a misunderstood line. There is not reference to the Catholic organization here. The 'c' in catholic in the creed is lower case... It does not mean the Catholic Church. the word catholic in the creed means.. "including of all mankind, universal." Like I said.. very misunderstood line in the creed.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/20/2006 1:03:36 PM
Author: strmrdr
Btw I find that picture highly offencive and im not that easy to offend.

I apologize. It was bad judgement on my part to post that.

Deborah

 

[MINE!!]

Date: 1/20/2006 1:09:48 PM
Author: Momoftwo
My DH has the fish (truth) eating the Darwin fish with legs on his bumper.

I have this one on my car too.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/20/2006 4:24:55 PM
Author: MINE!!

Date: 1/20/2006 1:09:48 PM

Author: Momoftwo

My DH has the fish (truth) eating the Darwin fish with legs on his bumper.

I have this one on my car too.

For the record, this does not offend me at all! I find it very amusing.

Deborah

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/20/2006 3:51:27 PM
Author: MINE!!

Date: 1/19/2006 10:17:01 AM
Author: AGBF



The wording in The Nicean Creed is:


''We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.''


(No ''Roman''!)


Deb

The ''catholic'' in this creed does not mean the Catholic church. It is quite a misunderstood line. There is not reference to the Catholic organization here. The ''c'' in catholic in the creed is lower case... It does not mean the Catholic Church. the word catholic in the creed means.. ''including of all mankind, universal.'' Like I said.. very misunderstood line in the creed.

The disconnect is that - that''s what YOU believe it to mean - in order to be inclusive of ALL Christians. It is not what I have been told to believe it to mean. Can any of us really know the intention of what was written, translated, etc 1000+ years ago? Could it be exclusive only to Catholics? How can one assign so much meaning to something capitalized or not way back then? And, Catholic Church isn''t the same as Catholic.

The whole argument was ridiculous to begin with. That''s my whole point.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/20/2006 2:46:59 PM
Author: part gypsy
Momoftwo
One things I can predict (not based on science, but on experience

), no amount of evidence I can provide to you will lead you to change your mind about this subject matter because your belief is based on faith, not evidence. Since it is not based on evidence, no amount of evidence would sway you.

Suffice to say, there is no controversy about evolution. The only controversy exists in the minds of the creationists.

Precisely.

I guess in my mind "evolution" is more of a sign that there exists a supreme being. That''s just my personal belief.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/20/2006 4:42:59 PM
Author: fire&ice
The whole argument was ridiculous to begin with. That''s my whole point.

Uh...which one?

Deb

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/20/2006 5:12:07 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 1/20/2006 4:42:59 PM
Author: fire&ice
The whole argument was ridiculous to begin with. That''s my whole point.

Uh...which one?

Deb

Please don''t confuse me

...just the argument that one religion over another has a lock on Heaven - if one believes in Heaven.

 

[MINE!!]

Date: 1/20/2006 4:42:59 PM
Author: fire&ice

Date: 1/20/2006 3:51:27 PM

Author: MINE!!

Date: 1/19/2006 10:17:01 AM

Author: AGBF




The wording in The Nicean Creed is:



''We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.''



(No ''Roman''!)



Deb

The ''catholic'' in this creed does not mean the Catholic church. It is quite a misunderstood line. There is not reference to the Catholic organization here. The ''c'' in catholic in the creed is lower case... It does not mean the Catholic Church. the word catholic in the creed means.. ''including of all mankind, universal.'' Like I said.. very misunderstood line in the creed.

The disconnect is that - that''s what YOU believe it to mean - in order to be inclusive of ALL Christians. It is not what I have been told to believe it to mean. Can any of us really know the intention of what was written, translated, etc 1000+ years ago? Could it be exclusive only to Catholics? How can one assign so much meaning to something capitalized or not way back then? And, Catholic Church isn''t the same as Catholic.


The whole argument was ridiculous to begin with. That''s my whole point.

That is what the United Methodist and most Protestant clergy and bishops beleive that it means. The acceded of Nicean, there was only one church at the time, at that time they were NOT catholic, nor had the CATHOLIC church been organized by then. Unfortunately, I you were misled. NO it can not be exclusive to the Catholic Church or the Catholics... because once again, when it wwas written, there was NO catholic church or any Catholics about. There are records that go well enough back to know the origin of the Nicean creed and it''s orginal meaning, so YES, we do know it''s intention.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/20/2006 5:19:33 PM
Author: MINE!!


That is what the United Methodist and most Protestant clergy and bishops beleive that it means. The acceded of Nicean, there was only one church at the time, at that time they were NOT catholic, nor had the CATHOLIC church been organized by then. Unfortunately, I you were misled. NO it can not be exclusive to the Catholic Church or the Catholics... because once again, when it wwas written, there was NO catholic church or any Catholics about. There are records that go well enough back to know the origin of the Nicean creed and it''s orginal meaning, so YES, we do know it''s intention.

Precisely my point. That is what the UM & most Protestant clergy believe. They have a reason to want to believe it. The timing is remarkably close to the formation of a formal catholic church. There certainly were no UM or any other large group of Protestants milling about.

Please do not tell me that *I* was misled. I did not say that *you* were misled - just that there are reasons why a belief is a belief.

There is no way possible that we can know the intentions of anyone of 600-700 ad.
We can only come to conclusions based on belief.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/20/2006 5:33:21 PM
Author: fire&ice
There is no way possible that we can know the intentions of anyone of 600-700 ad.

No? Well then it''s a good thing the Nicean Council was held in 325! This way we can, indeed, know the intentions of all involved.

Deb

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/20/2006 5:39:45 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 1/20/2006 5:33:21 PM
Author: fire&ice
There is no way possible that we can know the intentions of anyone of 600-700 ad.

No? Well then it's a good thing the Nicean Council was held in 325! This way we can, indeed, know the intentions of all involved.

Deb

For pete bloody sake (yes, I'm cussing again)

you know what I mean.

Where I'm going with this is that I don't think we can know for sure a literal interpretation of anything including the Bible. Call that thought blaspemous (as is my spelling) - but between the fact that everything was interpreted language tranlation wise umteen times & hand written to boot makes me question a very literal interpretation of anything.

But, I"m probably going to hell in a handbag because I believe many of the stories of the Bible to be parables based on behaviour we should live by. I don't think all the writings are historical accounts.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/20/2006 4:18:43 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 1/20/2006 1:03:36 PM

Author: strmrdr

Btw I find that picture highly offencive and im not that easy to offend.

I apologize. It was bad judgement on my part to post that.


Deborah

Its kewl I forgive you.