Closing Guantanamo

[luckystar112]

Wishful, I just want to commend you for always being so respectful and "to the point" in your responses. You''re a breath of fresh air in a sometimes scary forum! Even though I don''t always agree with you 100%, I find that you are very knowledgable about your passions and that is very refreshing.

I love that you argue with your brain and not with your snark.

Of course, I feel the same way about you diamondseeker!

 

[WishfulThinking]

Date: 1/24/2009 12:23:23 AM
Author: luckystar112
Wishful, I just want to commend you for always being so respectful and ''to the point'' in your responses. You''re a breath of fresh air in a sometimes scary forum! Even though I don''t always agree with you 100%, I find that you are very knowledgable about your passions and that is very refreshing.

I love that you argue with your brain and not with your snark.

Of course, I feel the same way about you diamondseeker!

Thanks. I appreciate it. I am really trying to keep my snark in check and my blood pressure low! Lately I have been having a "please, PLEASE can''t we all get along" crisis in my life as it intersects with politics [yeah 3 guesses on that one...] and it''s bothering me and affecting me emotionally so much that I really do find myself wishing we could just figure out some way to let each other live without it having to hurt people... even though I know it''s a stupidly naive position. *sigh* I do not argue positions I can''t back up, though. That is a major no-no in my book, even when it comes to people who have the same opinions I do.

 

[strmrdr]

Give them a fair trial, shoot the guilty ones and bury them with a pig, release the rest back to their home country end of story.
What is so hard about that?

 

[WishfulThinking]

Date: 1/24/2009 12:59:49 AM
Author: strmrdr
Give them a fair trial, shoot the guilty ones and bury them with a pig, release the rest back to their home country end of story.

What is so hard about that?

I''m pretty sure your way of offing them is unconstitutional, but if the death penalty is on the table [for them to decide, obviously it''s not my job to decide that] I think the usual ways would be [more than] sufficient. But yes, in the more general sense I do agree with what you posted.

 

[bobbin]

I think one thing that has been missed is that America brought these prisoners to Guantanamo, they took responsibility for them.

Now, I don''t know all the details (well, I have forgotten them), but from what I remember, the US was using G as a way of avoiding international law and US domestic law.

Well, I think it comes down to this. The US has taken responsibility for these ''criminals'' (they have not been proven to be criminals yet). The US now needs to apply domestic law to these criminals and afford them the basic rights that any other class of criminal would receive.

If the US didn''t want these criminals in the US, the US shouldn''t have brought them to US controlled soil.

Releasing these people back to their countries post trial can work on occasions also- David Hicks was successfully released back to Australia. Now this is a western country, but what about Iraq? We all know Iraq is a safe, politically stable democratic country now that the US has won.

Sarcasm aside, there has to be other options than denying natural justice and violating human rights. No matter what the crime.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 1/24/2009 12:30:21 AM
Author: WishfulThinking

Date: 1/24/2009 12:23:23 AM
Author: luckystar112
Wishful, I just want to commend you for always being so respectful and ''to the point'' in your responses. You''re a breath of fresh air in a sometimes scary forum! Even though I don''t always agree with you 100%, I find that you are very knowledgable about your passions and that is very refreshing.

I love that you argue with your brain and not with your snark.

Of course, I feel the same way about you diamondseeker!

Thanks. I appreciate it. I am really trying to keep my snark in check and my blood pressure low! Lately I have been having a ''please, PLEASE can''t we all get along'' crisis in my life as it intersects with politics [yeah 3 guesses on that one...] and it''s bothering me and affecting me emotionally so much that I really do find myself wishing we could just figure out some way to let each other live without it having to hurt people... even though I know it''s a stupidly naive position. *sigh* I do not argue positions I can''t back up, though. That is a major no-no in my book, even when it comes to people who have the same opinions I do.

Yes, I just want to thank Wishful as well! And thanks Luckystar! I didn''t post it to get into an argument whatsoever. My point was that some of these people are extremely dangerous and I really don''t want them brought here. I appreciate it when we can have a civil discussion as I really am not a debater.

So yes, apply constitutional law and give them due process immediately, try them, punish the guilty (preferably not mingled in with the regular prision population) and send the others back where they came from and keep them from coming here.

Honestly, I just thought the article was scary. These guys have a mission and it has not been fulfilled. They will be back if we don''t take measures (whatever that may mean) to prohibit them from doing so. I think it has been pretty amazing that we have not had another attack since 2001, actually. I just hate to see us let down our guard and have another 9/11.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 1/23/2009 11:57:46 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I certainly agree with much of what you have said, wishful. I certainly never said I approved of torture. However, I think we need to look at making stricter laws for those suspected of terrorist activity. These guys aren''t there for no reason. And I certainly don''t want them brought into prisons on our mainland where they can recruit others to their cause.

(sorry some links are spaced away from the quotes that should go with, I could not get them to stay together)

Actually ds, many were/are, which I''ll elaborate more on in a sec. And I''ll add some other points on Gitmo (and the war) in addition to Wishful''s informative posts. I''m not meaning to be argumentitive at all, so please don''t take it that way. I have just done a lot of reading about the place (and 9-11), and there is so much the public doesn''t know. The reason for that is because what we heard mostly in mainstream media wasn''t much, and not entirely truthful.

And I have very strong feelings about this. If one does a search, there are tons of (credible) links on the various topics.

First, to your comment (and that of many americans) that we have been kept safe since 9-11. True, sorta. The reality is, 9-11 could have possibly (or totally) been avoided. We were receiving intelligence for some time beforehand that a plot was being formed to attack us. As that date got closer, the intelligence got more specific. The WH tried to say they weren''t warned, but they were. Then they tried to say they had no idea, never dreamed, that we could be attacked with planes in the US. Again, not true. Why was the govt. running field tests ON 9-11 simulating that very thing, if they didn''t really think that?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-04-18-norad_x.htm






WASHINGTON — In the two years before the Sept. 11 attacks, the North American Aerospace Defense Command conducted exercises simulating what the White House says was unimaginable at the time: hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties.


http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/10/bush.briefing/






(CNN) -- The White House declassified and released Saturday the daily intelligence briefing delivered to President Bush a month before the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. The declassified intelligence report said the FBI had detected "patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings."









And a rebuttal from Richard Clark, whom I personally to believe.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/03/23/bush.clarke/

NEW YORK (CNN) -- Former White House counterterrorism expert Richard Clarke accused the Bush administration on Tuesday of going on the offensive against him to "divert attention from the truth" that the administration did "virtually nothing about al Qaeda prior to September 11, 2001."


And one last half truth from Miss Rice. (video from 9-11 commission)



So then we start the war (really in the wrong place btw, for the wrong reasons) and start rounding up "suspects". There has been so much written on the validity of the detainees being real terrorists. The fact is, the vast majority were not. They were just citizens, many picked up in the wrong place at the wrong time, and sold for bounty payments. Our govt. showed little discrimination in who got swept up and put in this hell hole. (and many others, called black sites)

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/worthington.php?articleid=11693

For over five and a half years, as I explain in depth in my newly released book, The Guantánamo Files, the prison in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, has held hundreds of innocent men. Humanitarian aid workers, teachers or students of the Koran, businessmen, economic migrants, and refugees from persecution – all were swept up for bounty payments, either in Afghanistan or Pakistan, at a time when the U.S. military was offering $5,000 a head for al-Qaeda suspects.









Unfortunately, once they were in there, and it was finally (which in many cases took years) determined they were in fact innocent, the question became what to do with them. In many countries, once a citizen of theirs has been arrested, even if innocent, they are guilty in the eyes of their homeland, and if sent back, they will either be put back in their own prison, or killed. So, they can''t go home.


Next suggestion is would another country take them in. Well, (some did) and some might have, but for the behavior on the part of the Bush administration, so people weren''t as willing to work with us. So some have just sat in Gitmo, innocent, with no place to go. Now that Obama is in office, some countries have expressed a potential willingness to take some in. That is a powerful political statement not lost on me. And many of the others in there have not been charged with a crime/have had a trial held. Which btw, wherever a trial IS held, much of the so called "confessions/information" attained cannot be used because it was received by way of torture, which deems it unusable. And torture has also been deemed to not really work anyway, and is in fact counter productive. It has only enraged them to hate us more.

Former US interrogator on torture policy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLvzwfMF8K4 (sorry for the lengthy rambling of this woman in the beginning)



So, it is pretty clear that the Bush admin. made this hellish bed, and we are the ones who get to lay in it. Each of the detainees deserves a fair trial, that much is clear. Where the innocent go remains to be seen, and as for the truly guilty, I have no problem with them being locked up here.

Coming back to your original post (no, I didn''t forget)

, as Wishful said, you have to put the guilty in prison to serve their time (though again, that begs the question, just how many are actually guilty), but then they should rightfully get released. Will they come back at us, possibly. That is the way with any violent criminal that gets released. But that is only part of our worry, there are all those out there we don''t even know about, and there''s nothing we can do about that either. Except hope President Obama does a good job of listening to intelligence and acting accordingly, which I have total faith in. I also feel his diplomatic approach, in stark contrast to the previous admin., might well serve us in possbly avoiding some confrontations. At worst, it certainly can''t hurt.

I would strongly urge people to really delve into the aspects of this war. Why it was (supposedly) started, and how things have been carried out since. The story we were told, and the truth, are worlds apart.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Ellen, thanks!

I have no problem agreeing that mistakes have been made, but I also don''t trust everything I read in the media. I don''t know if we will ever really know the truth about some things that have occurred. And hindsight makes it really easy to see what coulda, shoulda been done! I''m not looking backward as much as I am looking forward in hopes that our country can be kept safe.

Diplomacy won''t help us with al qaeda, but hopefully Obama and his intelligence people will be on their toes and take all threats seriously and keep us safe. Believe me, I''ll be praying for them (the administration)!

 

[ksinger]

Well, naturally I''ve been keeping up on this thread. Usually I would attempt to make some meaningful contribution, but haven''t been inclined to type much lately - I''ve been in "reading" mode. Still working on "The Origins of Totalitarianism". However, I will thank both Wishful and Ellen for excellent, well-reasoned, and well-supported posts. Thank you both for doing all the heavy lifting of late.

My musings on this and other topics have moved to a high-level spiritual vantage point. And no, that doesn''t mean I''m saying I''m above it all. It means I''ve been contemplating the deep beliefs that make the two "sides" in this issue and others, take the positions they do. Without going into gory detail (that typing aversion again) I''ll say I see fear where I think I shouldn''t and it never ceases to amaze me when I do. Anyhoo... I will make one small contribution. This is a link to a WashPo debate about the release of Gitmo detainees. I found it interesting.

Back to lurking.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 1/24/2009 2:42:52 PM
Author: ksinger
Well, naturally I''ve been keeping up on this thread. Usually I would attempt to make some meaningful contribution, but haven''t been inclined to type much lately - I''ve been in ''reading'' mode. Still working on ''The Origins of Totalitarianism''. However, I will thank both Wishful and Ellen for excellent, well-reasoned, and well-supported posts. Thank you both for doing all the heavy lifting of late.

My musings on this and other topics have moved to a high-level spiritual vantage point. And no, that doesn''t mean I''m saying I''m above it all. It means I''ve been contemplating the deep beliefs that make the two ''sides'' in this issue and others, take the positions they do. Without going into gory detail (that typing aversion again) I''ll say I see fear where I think I shouldn''t and it never ceases to amaze me when I do. Anyhoo... I will make one small contribution. This is a link to a WashPo debate about the release of Gitmo detainees. I found it interesting.

Back to lurking.

Well, let me assure you that from that standpoint, I have ZERO fear.

But I would prefer not to have further terrorist attacks on our county. I would think we all agree on that!

 

[Ellen]

Date: 1/24/2009 2:05:38 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Ellen, thanks!

I have no problem agreeing that mistakes have been made, but I also don''t trust everything I read in the media. I don''t know if we will ever really know the truth about some things that have occurred. And hindsight makes it really easy to see what coulda, shoulda been done! I''m not looking backward as much as I am looking forward in hopes that our country can be kept safe.

Diplomacy won''t help us with al qaeda, but hopefully Obama and his intelligence people will be on their toes and take all threats seriously and keep us safe. Believe me, I''ll be praying for them (the administration)!

Neither do I ds, but what I posted is factual information.

And you''re welcome!

Karen, thanks.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

(Ellen, just didn''t want you to have the impression that I was doubting your sources. I was just speaking in general that it is sometimes hard to know the truth because the media is not always reliable. I love justice and hope it will prevail in this case while at the same time making appropriate penalties for those who are guilty of terrorism or involvement in terrorism.)

 

[starsapphire]

I have been perusing this thread as well. I think that the Bush admin. did not do enough to see about the "conclusion" of Gitmo. I see it as them saying, well Obama, it is going to be your problem now, we''ll let you be the bad guys and close it. I think that these "terrorists" were probably taken into custody in ways that US prisoners are not. Can they really be tried in our "system"? I mean, I am sure they were not read their Miranda rights. I don''t want to see them here on our soil either, but, I really would like to see Obama admin come up with a plan that will protect the rights of the "detainees" and our rights to safety as citizens.

I also think that some of them were just held there to get intel about future plots.

 

[Ellen]

ds, thanks for clarifying.

 

[WishfulThinking]

Date: 1/24/2009 2:42:52 PM
Author: ksinger
Well, naturally I''ve been keeping up on this thread. Usually I would attempt to make some meaningful contribution, but haven''t been inclined to type much lately - I''ve been in ''reading'' mode. Still working on ''The Origins of Totalitarianism''. However, I will thank both Wishful and Ellen for excellent, well-reasoned, and well-supported posts. Thank you both for doing all the heavy lifting of late.


My musings on this and other topics have moved to a high-level spiritual vantage point. And no, that doesn''t mean I''m saying I''m above it all. It means I''ve been contemplating the deep beliefs that make the two ''sides'' in this issue and others, take the positions they do. Without going into gory detail (that typing aversion again) I''ll say I see fear where I think I shouldn''t and it never ceases to amaze me when I do. Anyhoo... I will make one small contribution. This is a link to a WashPo debate about the release of Gitmo detainees. I found it interesting.


Back to lurking.

Thank you Karen.
I swear this is somewhat on topic and I apologize for detailing slightly.

Okay, Karen-- THE ORIGINS OF TOTALITARIANISM?!?!?!?!? By Hannah Arendt? Unless there is another book with the same title....
I am in love, IN LOVE with Hannah Arendt. Last year I wrote a long piece using the theory from The Origins of Totalitarianism and also from The Human Condition about the Iraq War and the US Propaganda machine [theory from OOT] as well as the Military Industrial Complex [theory from HC]. It''s probably going to be published in one of the Poli Sci journals in the coming months. Man do I wish you could read it! Okay, game over. Resume normal programming.

 

[WishfulThinking]

Diamondseeker, lest this become a thread about how much we all love each other, I have been happy to have this conversation with you and glad that we''ve managed to be civil to one another. I said before that I am trying very hard, and I see other people trying as well, which makes me really happy.

Ellen, thank you for the great sources. I''m really glad you''ve come up with them and posted them! I feel like I''ve been reading about this for what... 5 years now? I have all of this information stored in my head, but I''ve lost the sources somewhere along the way. As we both know if you don''t cite the big guys no one is going to believe you.

And, honestly, it''s a truly *unbelievable* situation, in the most literal way possible. When I imagine detainees being held for years with no fair trial, no charges brought against them period, tortured... YEARS of this-- it makes my blood boil. As everyone has been saying we need to find SOME.OTHER. way to deal with this, we need to separate people against whom we can build a factual case with evidence and move forward to prosecute, and those who have been senselessly held for years and act with our most basic constitutional values in mind.

starsapphire- hell must be freezing over, since I actually agree with a lot of what you''ve said in this post.

I think the Bush administration has dumped frankly a lot on whoever would have become the next president. Now we know it will be Obama, and I too hope that he will come up with a solution that keeps everyone''s rights in mind. The detainees in Gitmo were definitely NOT taken into custody by any means that the US should be publicly endorsing or protocol we ought to be following. Throwing people in prison for years with no formal charges is just plain wrong. They were able to get away with this because of Gitmo''s location, which is one reason why I think we will all be most productively served by moving the detainees against whom we can build a case to a very secure US prison.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 1/24/2009 6:02:03 PM
Author: WishfulThinking

Date: 1/24/2009 2:42:52 PM
Author: ksinger
Well, naturally I''ve been keeping up on this thread. Usually I would attempt to make some meaningful contribution, but haven''t been inclined to type much lately - I''ve been in ''reading'' mode. Still working on ''The Origins of Totalitarianism''. However, I will thank both Wishful and Ellen for excellent, well-reasoned, and well-supported posts. Thank you both for doing all the heavy lifting of late.


My musings on this and other topics have moved to a high-level spiritual vantage point. And no, that doesn''t mean I''m saying I''m above it all. It means I''ve been contemplating the deep beliefs that make the two ''sides'' in this issue and others, take the positions they do. Without going into gory detail (that typing aversion again) I''ll say I see fear where I think I shouldn''t and it never ceases to amaze me when I do. Anyhoo... I will make one small contribution. This is a link to a WashPo debate about the release of Gitmo detainees. I found it interesting.


Back to lurking.

Thank you Karen.
I swear this is somewhat on topic and I apologize for detailing slightly.

Okay, Karen-- THE ORIGINS OF TOTALITARIANISM?!?!?!?!? By Hannah Arendt? Unless there is another book with the same title....
I am in love, IN LOVE with Hannah Arendt. Last year I wrote a long piece using the theory from The Origins of Totalitarianism and also from The Human Condition about the Iraq War and the US Propaganda machine [theory from OOT] as well as the Military Industrial Complex [theory from HC]. It''s probably going to be published in one of the Poli Sci journals in the coming months. Man do I wish you could read it! Okay, game over. Resume normal programming.

The same. I started a while back, put it down for one reason and another, but I''ve recently picked it up again. You don''t need me to tell you it''s a dense read.

I''d love to read your piece!

 

[Ellen]

Date: 1/24/2009 6:11:49 PM
Author: WishfulThinking


Ellen, thank you for the great sources. I''m really glad you''ve come up with them and posted them! I feel like I''ve been reading about this for what... 5 years now? I have all of this information stored in my head, but I''ve lost the sources somewhere along the way. As we both know if you don''t cite the big guys no one is going to believe you.

And, honestly, it''s a truly *unbelievable* situation, in the most literal way possible. When I imagine detainees being held for years with no fair trial, no charges brought against them period, tortured... YEARS of this-- it makes my blood boil. As everyone has been saying we need to find SOME.OTHER. way to deal with this, we need to separate people against whom we can build a factual case with evidence and move forward to prosecute, and those who have been senselessly held for years and act with our most basic constitutional values in mind.

No problem.

And wow, I''m impressed on your piece being published, bravo!

 

[WishfulThinking]

Karen, Arendt is the WORST for density. I say that as someone who is used to reading a lot of political and critical theory. I had to take an entire seminar on her and her theories in order to really start to understand them. I''m so impressed that you''re tackling it without that. You are a very intelligent woman.

Ellen, thanks. It hasn''t been officially accepted because it''s still under review, but I think it''s promising. If this journal won''t publish it I''m sure someone else will. It''s actually a very good piece and I NEVER like anything I do. The military industrial complex is fascinating from a theoretical point of view as well as a practical one. You always impress me with all of your knowledge about what''s going on in the world. There aren''t many things I love more than someone well-read and capable of truly intelligent debate!

/offtopic

 

[Ellen]

Date: 1/24/2009 7:49:10 PM
Author: WishfulThinking

Ellen, thanks. It hasn''t been officially accepted because it''s still under review, but I think it''s promising. If this journal won''t publish it I''m sure someone else will. It''s actually a very good piece and I NEVER like anything I do. The military industrial complex is fascinating from a theoretical point of view as well as a practical one. You always impress me with all of your knowledge about what''s going on in the world. There aren''t many things I love more than someone well-read and capable of truly intelligent debate!

/offtopic

Then it must be good, we''re always our harshest critic.

And my goodness, thank you very much for the most generous compliment. I think you give me too much credit, but hey, I''ll take it! Maybe I should show my boys this post....

 

[WishfulThinking]

Date: 1/24/2009 8:01:09 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/24/2009 7:49:10 PM

Author: WishfulThinking


Ellen, thanks. It hasn''t been officially accepted because it''s still under review, but I think it''s promising. If this journal won''t publish it I''m sure someone else will. It''s actually a very good piece and I NEVER like anything I do. The military industrial complex is fascinating from a theoretical point of view as well as a practical one. You always impress me with all of your knowledge about what''s going on in the world. There aren''t many things I love more than someone well-read and capable of truly intelligent debate!


/offtopic

Then it must be good, we''re always our harshest critic.

And my goodness, thank you very much for the most generous compliment. I think you give me too much credit, but hey, I''ll take it! Maybe I should show my boys this post....

You should! It''s true. They should be proud of their mom!

 

[ksinger]

Date: 1/24/2009 7:49:10 PM
Author: WishfulThinking
Karen, Arendt is the WORST for density. I say that as someone who is used to reading a lot of political and critical theory. I had to take an entire seminar on her and her theories in order to really start to understand them. I''m so impressed that you''re tackling it without that. You are a very intelligent woman.

Ellen, thanks. It hasn''t been officially accepted because it''s still under review, but I think it''s promising. If this journal won''t publish it I''m sure someone else will. It''s actually a very good piece and I NEVER like anything I do. The military industrial complex is fascinating from a theoretical point of view as well as a practical one. You always impress me with all of your knowledge about what''s going on in the world. There aren''t many things I love more than someone well-read and capable of truly intelligent debate!

/offtopic

LOL! I don''t know about that. What is it about fools rushing in?

I just have eclectic interests I guess. There are quite a few books I wouldn''t dare to even attempt. One of them is Finnegan''s Wake. You hear that one tossed around a lot, so I picked up a copy one day in the bookstore. I opened it to a page and attempted to read a couple of paragraphs.

Needless to say, I put it back on the shelf. THAT book isn''t dense, it''s incomprehensible, and is apparently the study of a lifetime, not to be attempted without years of study and overviews and classes. Too much for me. I can''t imagine it has anything so sublime or incisive to say that is worth that level of effort.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 1/24/2009 2:42:52 PM
Author: ksinger
Well, naturally I''ve been keeping up on this thread. Usually I would attempt to make some meaningful contribution, but haven''t been inclined to type much lately - I''ve been in ''reading'' mode. Still working on ''The Origins of Totalitarianism''. However, I will thank both Wishful and Ellen for excellent, well-reasoned, and well-supported posts. Thank you both for doing all the heavy lifting of late.

My musings on this and other topics have moved to a high-level spiritual vantage point. And no, that doesn''t mean I''m saying I''m above it all. It means I''ve been contemplating the deep beliefs that make the two ''sides'' in this issue and others, take the positions they do. Without going into gory detail (that typing aversion again) I''ll say I see fear where I think I shouldn''t and it never ceases to amaze me when I do. Anyhoo... I will make one small contribution. This is a link to a WashPo debate about the release of Gitmo detainees. I found it interesting.

Back to lurking.

Me too, just read it. Interesting to read some of the varying responses (from readers) also. Thanks for the link.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 1/25/2009 8:26:05 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/24/2009 2:42:52 PM
Author: ksinger
Well, naturally I''ve been keeping up on this thread. Usually I would attempt to make some meaningful contribution, but haven''t been inclined to type much lately - I''ve been in ''reading'' mode. Still working on ''The Origins of Totalitarianism''. However, I will thank both Wishful and Ellen for excellent, well-reasoned, and well-supported posts. Thank you both for doing all the heavy lifting of late.

My musings on this and other topics have moved to a high-level spiritual vantage point. And no, that doesn''t mean I''m saying I''m above it all. It means I''ve been contemplating the deep beliefs that make the two ''sides'' in this issue and others, take the positions they do. Without going into gory detail (that typing aversion again) I''ll say I see fear where I think I shouldn''t and it never ceases to amaze me when I do. Anyhoo... I will make one small contribution. This is a link to a WashPo debate about the release of Gitmo detainees. I found it interesting.

Back to lurking.

Me too, just read it. Interesting to read some of the varying responses (from readers) also. Thanks for the link.

I really appreciated this article as well. Several of the reports were expressing what I was getting at to begin with. I have not had time to read every link posted on this thread. But I just wanted to say that I felt this article was quite good at expressing the problem in a balanced manner. Thanks for the link, Karen.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 1/25/2009 2:29:56 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 1/25/2009 8:26:05 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 1/24/2009 2:42:52 PM
Author: ksinger
Well, naturally I''ve been keeping up on this thread. Usually I would attempt to make some meaningful contribution, but haven''t been inclined to type much lately - I''ve been in ''reading'' mode. Still working on ''The Origins of Totalitarianism''. However, I will thank both Wishful and Ellen for excellent, well-reasoned, and well-supported posts. Thank you both for doing all the heavy lifting of late.

My musings on this and other topics have moved to a high-level spiritual vantage point. And no, that doesn''t mean I''m saying I''m above it all. It means I''ve been contemplating the deep beliefs that make the two ''sides'' in this issue and others, take the positions they do. Without going into gory detail (that typing aversion again) I''ll say I see fear where I think I shouldn''t and it never ceases to amaze me when I do. Anyhoo... I will make one small contribution. This is a link to a WashPo debate about the release of Gitmo detainees. I found it interesting.

Back to lurking.

Me too, just read it. Interesting to read some of the varying responses (from readers) also. Thanks for the link.

I really appreciated this article as well. Several of the reports were expressing what I was getting at to begin with. I have not had time to read every link posted on this thread. But I just wanted to say that I felt this article was quite good at expressing the problem in a balanced manner. Thanks for the link, Karen.

You''re welcome. I truly try to give myself the benefit of knowing and understanding as much of an issue as I can. That is the sort of stuff I try to read. I''m glad there are others who like it too.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 1/24/2009 2:42:52 PM
Author: ksinger
Well, naturally I''ve been keeping up on this thread. Usually I would attempt to make some meaningful contribution, but haven''t been inclined to type much lately - I''ve been in ''reading'' mode. Still working on ''The Origins of Totalitarianism''. However, I will thank both Wishful and Ellen for excellent, well-reasoned, and well-supported posts. Thank you both for doing all the heavy lifting of late.

Ditto!

 

[Rank Amateur]

Date: 1/23/2009 9:39:39 PM
Author: JulieN
Thank god. Finally. This is like the 21st century version horror version of Japanese interment camps.

?

All those WWII Americans with Japanese heritage being held in camps were actually America-hating terrorists? Wow.

 

[iheartscience]

I don''t think anyone''s linked this article yet. Apparently it''s going to be even harder to close Guantanamo because there are no comprehensive case files on many of the detainees.

link

"President Obama''s plans to expeditiously determine the fates of about 245 terrorism suspects held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and quickly close the military prison there were set back last week when incoming legal and national security officials -- barred until the inauguration from examining classified material on the detainees -- discovered that there were no comprehensive case files on many of them.

Instead, they found that information on individual prisoners is "scattered throughout the executive branch," a senior administration official said. The executive order Obama signed Thursday orders the prison closed within one year, and a Cabinet-level panel named to review each case separately will have to spend its initial weeks and perhaps months scouring the corners of the federal government in search of relevant material."

 

[WishfulThinking]

Date: 1/25/2009 9:31:48 PM
Author: thing2of2
I don't think anyone's linked this article yet. Apparently it's going to be even harder to close Guantanamo because there are no comprehensive case files on many of the detainees.


link


'President Obama's plans to expeditiously determine the fates of about 245 terrorism suspects held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and quickly close the military prison there were set back last week when incoming legal and national security officials -- barred until the inauguration from examining classified material on the detainees -- discovered that there were no comprehensive case files on many of them.


Instead, they found that information on individual prisoners is 'scattered throughout the executive branch,' a senior administration official said. The executive order Obama signed Thursday orders the prison closed within one year, and a Cabinet-level panel named to review each case separately will have to spend its initial weeks and perhaps months scouring the corners of the federal government in search of relevant material.'

Not that those of us paying attention [on both "sides" for that matter] didn't see this coming, but there are almost no words for the anger I'm feeling about this right now. I am for lack of better words SO PISSED that they have been irresponsible enough to hold people for years with no comprehensive and complete files of evidence against them. This needs to be fixed stat. It's embarrassing that a world superpower is conducting itself in such a lax and irresponsible manner.

As anyone who is facebook friends with me might have noticed, I've been saying it all along: Be prepared for the closing of Guantanamo to last more than a year. The legal nightmare has only just begun. It's not that Obama is backpedaling, but that the situation is insanely complex and in even worse shape than any of us even suspected. Okay, well, to be fair I sort of suspected.

ETA: While I want to believe and so far do think that Obama has done an excellent thing in prioritizing the closing of Gitmo on his agenda, I will be absolutely the first person to call him out if it looks like he's doing something stupid. I know it might not seem like it from some perspectives, but I am all over this guy with criticisms every day of the week. If he makes a mess of it I will yell loud and clear and hopefully everyone else will too. I have no reason to think that he will mishandle the situation, but this is something that needs to be done exactly, 100% according to the book if we are *ever* going to maintain our presence in the international community as a legitimate world power. We need to clean up our act.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 1/25/2009 10:45:35 PM
Author: WishfulThinking

Date: 1/25/2009 9:31:48 PM

Author: thing2of2

I don''t think anyone''s linked this article yet. Apparently it''s going to be even harder to close Guantanamo because there are no comprehensive case files on many of the detainees.



link



''President Obama''s plans to expeditiously determine the fates of about 245 terrorism suspects held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and quickly close the military prison there were set back last week when incoming legal and national security officials -- barred until the inauguration from examining classified material on the detainees -- discovered that there were no comprehensive case files on many of them.



Instead, they found that information on individual prisoners is ''scattered throughout the executive branch,'' a senior administration official said. The executive order Obama signed Thursday orders the prison closed within one year, and a Cabinet-level panel named to review each case separately will have to spend its initial weeks and perhaps months scouring the corners of the federal government in search of relevant material.''

Not that those of us paying attention [on both ''sides'' for that matter] didn''t see this coming, but there are almost no words for the anger I''m feeling about this right now. I am for lack of better words SO PISSED that they have been irresponsible enough to hold people for years with no comprehensive and complete files of evidence against them. This needs to be fixed stat. It''s embarrassing that a world superpower is conducting itself in such a lax and irresponsible manner.


As anyone who is facebook friends with me might have noticed, I''ve been saying it all along: Be prepared for the closing of Guantanamo to last more than a year. The legal nightmare has only just begun. It''s not that Obama is backpedaling, but that the situation is insanely complex and in even worse shape than any of us even suspected. Okay, well, to be fair I sort of suspected.

ETA: While I want to believe and so far do think that Obama has done an excellent thing in prioritizing the closing of Gitmo on his agenda, I will be absolutely the first person to call him out if it looks like he''s doing something stupid. I know it might not seem like it from some perspectives, but I am all over this guy with criticisms every day of the week. If he makes a mess of it I will yell loud and clear and hopefully everyone else will too. I have no reason to think that he will mishandle the situation, but this is something that needs to be done exactly, 100% according to the book if we are *ever* going to maintain our presence in the international community as a legitimate world power. We need to clean up our act.

My cybercrush list just got longer.

Btw Wishful, if we could figure out a way...(Karen...

) to share your Arendt piece, would you be willing to do it? Or would you prefer to wait until it is published to share? I asked because if I were in your shoes I probably wouldn''t want to share with forum folks until after it was published.