Cloud Inclusions & Impact/Appearance

[the_mother_thing]

Reading through a recent thread, a diamond was being considered that - on its GIA report - noted a cloud as a clarity characteristic (in addition to a feather). And a kind PSer suggested asking the vendor’s gemologist to review the diamond to ensure the cloud doesn’t result in a negative impact, which makes sense. Follow-up post from the ‘buyer’ re: gemologist feedback is that the diamond “may appear cloudy”.

Here is the diamond:


And here is how GIA defines how a cloud may appear (image magnified of course): “Many tightly grouped pinpoints that might be too small to distinguish individually but together have a hazy appearance.” — http://4cs.gia.edu/en-us/blog/diamond-inclusions-defined/



So my question is - where on the diamond in question does this ‘cloud’ appear? I can see what I believe are the feather/s, but I’m trying to get better about identifying these things in the magnified images when they are present, but I don’t see squat for a cloud that resembles the GIA definition/image, unless I’m mistaking one of the ‘feather’-looking inclusions for the/a cloud.

I question this is because - if I/we cannot see it in the mega-magnified image - why would it not be relatively ‘safe’ to assume that the noted ‘cloud’ on the report (or any inclusion for that matter) would not impact performance/appearance? (Note: I’m not saying or suggesting “don’t ask a gemologist”). Would you - as a ‘more astute diamond buyer’ call this particular diamond ‘cloudy’?

Part of my thought process as well - in this particular case - is that perhaps the ‘buyer’ is missing out on an otherwise potentially great diamond (all other things being ‘in check’). I’d almost question if the gemologist actually looked at the diamond, or just noted that the GIA report said ‘cloud’, so responded that it “may appear cloudy”. Maybe his/her definition of “appearing cloudy” is that “you may see a couple tiny cloud inclusions” vs. “the diamond overall has a speckled/hazy look due to a/the clouds”. (I hope the difference I’m suggesting there is clear). Or maybe the question/answer depend on how the viewer/buyer defines a ‘cloudy appearance’. Obviously, I’m not a gemologist, but if I can’t see an overall “cloudy” appearance in a mega-magnified image, how the heck would I see one IRL when viewing the diamond in a normal setting & distance to the point it would impact appearance/performance, and how would it - in THIS case - make a diamond “maybe appear cloudy”?

GIA’s report checker is down so I can’t pull this diamond’s report to see the plot if there is one, so I blew the image up and circled what I could see, some of which might be a reflection of a feather/cloud inclusion, given their location & proximity.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Clouds can vary in size and density. They can have no appreciable affect or transparency or they can make a diamond look decidedly hazy. It's an important issue for shoppers looking for top light performance because even with perfect cutting, clarity factors can diminish fire and brilliance.

If the cloud is small and/or of low density, it may be very difficult or impossible to see in a photo. Or in person. Transparency deficits can be subtle and may go unnoticed by non-experts. Comparing side by side to another of the same size, color, and cut quality with a VS1 or above clarity is the best way to see if there is a transparency deficit.

You can get some insights by navigating the finer points of a lab report. I'm out of time but I will come back and post about this if someone doesn't beat me to it.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Clouds can vary in size and density. They can have no appreciable affect or transparency or they can make a diamond look decidedly hazy. It's an important issue for shoppers looking for top light performance because even with perfect cutting, clarity factors can diminish fire and brilliance.

If the cloud is small and/or of low density, it may be very difficult or impossible to see in a photo. Or in person. Transparency deficits can be subtle and may go unnoticed by non-experts. Comparing side by side to another of the same size, color, and cut quality with a VS1 or above clarity is the best way to see if there is a transparency deficit.

You can get some insights by navigating the finer points of a lab report. I'm out of time but I will come back and post about this if someone doesn't beat me to it.

Thanks so much for weighing in Bryan! It’s wise advice from you to note that cloud density & size plays a role here, and as such I definitely get how clouds can potentially impact performance & appearance. And agree also - having a side-by-side comparison with a like-diamond of high clarity (e.g., no clouds) would probably yield the best response. I also just tried again to pull the plot for this diamond, but still getting a ‘systems down’ from the GIA report checker. That would at least help me to see where on this diamond the cloud (if plotted) was located so I can more easily identify it.

I realize you’re somewhat limited in what you can comment on here by virtue of being a trade member (e.g., probably can’t comment on this particular diamond), so hopefully someone else will also chime in to help me locate - if it is in fact visible and I just am missing it - where this diamond’s ‘cloud’ happens to be.

 

[tyty333]

Really do need to see the GIA report...plus what clarity is this stone?

 

[the_mother_thing]

Really do need to see the GIA report...plus what clarity is this stone?

This diamond’s clarity is noted by the vendor to be SI1.

I keep refreshing the GIA report search, but it keeps coming back stating:
REPORT CHECK IS CURRENTLY UNAVAILABLE
Please check back later. We apologize for the inconvenience.


Also, I don’t know if there will be a plot available, as this particular diamond is < 1ct but not by much, and I seem to recall (perhaps wrongly) that diamonds of that size aren’t usually plotted for inclusions on GIA reports?

 

[WinkHPD]

Is the cloud the grade setting inclusion, or just mentioned, usually near the bottom of the list. If it is the grade setter, it is more likely to have some visual affect on the diamond. If it follows meekly behind the feathers, it is not likely to have much, if any affect on the appearance of the diamond, but still, one would have to look at it with their eyes to know for sure.

Wink

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Thanks so much for weighing in Bryan! It’s wise advice from you to note that cloud density & size plays a role here, and as such I definitely get how clouds can potentially impact performance & appearance. And agree also - having a side-by-side comparison with a like-diamond of high clarity (e.g., no clouds) would probably yield the best response. I also just tried again to pull the plot for this diamond, but still getting a ‘systems down’ from the GIA report checker. That would at least help me to see where on this diamond the cloud (if plotted) was located so I can more easily identify it.

I realize you’re somewhat limited in what you can comment on here by virtue of being a trade member (e.g., probably can’t comment on this particular diamond), so hopefully someone else will also chime in to help me locate - if it is in fact visible and I just am missing it - where this diamond’s ‘cloud’ happens to be.

It's actually quite OK for trade members to discuss this kind of thing for educational purposes. My comments are independent of the particular stone in question.

Reading the cert:
First thing is the clarity grade. It is rare for VS and above clarity to have any appreciable transparency issues. VS2 with certain features and comments should still be scrutinized.
The mere presence of clouds, twinning, graining is NOT a red flag for transparency. These are common features and they are plotted and mentioned primarily as a means of identifying the diamond.
Keys to Symbol (stone plot)
This is a list of the features plotted in order of their influence in setting the grade. So a cloud listed first would indicate it has more impact.
Comments
Clouds, twinning, graining can be mentioned here as being present but not plotted.
Clarity grade based on clouds is a comment that in an Si or possibly even VS2, can indicate a potential haziness problem.

So, the specific combination of these items a present on the cert gives an indication of the likelihood of transparency deficits. You can think of this as language that indirectly speaks to this issue.

Examples:
Si2 with a clean plot and comment "clarity grade based on clouds not shown" = a diamond that will be hazy. And almost certainly 'eye clean'!
Si1 with cloud listed first on keys and comments additional clouds not shown = a diamond likely to be ok, but should be evaluated for transparency. That is where the size and density of the clouds comes into play, and where careful vetting is required.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

This diamond’s clarity is noted by the vendor to be SI1.

I keep refreshing the GIA report search, but it keeps coming back stating:
REPORT CHECK IS CURRENTLY UNAVAILABLE
Please check back later. We apologize for the inconvenience.


Also, I don’t know if there will be a plot available, as this particular diamond is < 1ct but not by much, and I seem to recall (perhaps wrongly) that diamonds of that size aren’t usually plotted for inclusions on GIA reports?

Yes, GIA dossier reports are somewhat of a default in the trade for under a carat, and they do not contain stone plots, so a bit less info to go by. It is possible however, to order a full cert on any size diamond.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Finally, the GIA report loaded, but there is no plot.

All that is available is the list of specs, and here is what is shown for clarity:

Since the cloud is listed first here (vs under the plot, as usual), I guess the same rule applies that it is the grade setting inclusion?

Note: I am intentionally omitting the specific diamond details/Gia/Vendor so we can discuss the topic objectively & ‘educationally’ with as much input as possible.

 

[nala]

I have a 2.52 I Si2 with clouds. I don’t have cert handy to post but I have in previous threads. Anyhow. I think mine qualifies. What have I noticed? I took mine to an appraiser before I decided to keep it. I didn’t really understand what hazy or cloudy actually looked like so he reassured me that my stone exhibits none of those qualities. As far as my eyes finding the clouds, I have great near vision and I don’t notice them. I do notice all the pastels and rainbows and lights and fire tho. And my diamond appears crisp and clean! Hope that helps!

 

[tyty333]

According to the gemologist..."may appear cloudy". I wish we knew for sure whether it was cloudy or not. It looks crisp to me in the image (which
doesnt really mean anything except it may not be cloudy or, you can not tell cloudiness from these images). Its unfortunate that we dont know one
way or the other.

Does this stone have a video with it?

 

[the_mother_thing]

Thanks so much @Wink & @Texas Leaguer for your input; I’m so very thankful you’re both able/willing to participate in this discussion and lend your professional expertise. Everything you’re saying makes perfect sense to me in my head. I think the trouble I’m having is rationalizing it with my eyes, at least in this particular case. I know we/buyers cannot go solely on pictures when assessing a diamond and that there are so many variable that can influence those pictures, but given we (here) largely are getting a first glimpse at a diamond candidate either for our own purchases or in helping others via the pictures vendors post, and that we usually either keep or ‘can’ a diamond based on it’s other visible inclusions (when magnified) in those pictures, it seems - when a candidate is being excluded based on clouds - I’d think there would be some visible clue/s in the photo for doing so (at least, that’s what my logic-brain thinks makes sense).

For example as Bryan suggested - here are three near-identical diamonds, one of which (center) is the ‘subject’ SI-cloud diamond I posted above. It’s compared with two GIA-cert’d same-color diamonds, both of which are at least two clarity grades higher than the subject and almost the exact same size.



Perhaps it’s my eyes or maybe it’s just what appeals to me personally, but the diamond in the middle - even with it’s magnified-visible inclusions - looks overall brighter and no more ‘cloudy’ than the other two. (I’m not judging cut here, mind you).

So I guess my question is - what am I not seeing here that - if you were buying it, might make you ‘can’ the middle diamond in favor of the other two?

 

[the_mother_thing]

I have a 2.52 I Si2 with clouds. I don’t have cert handy to post but I have in previous threads. Anyhow. I think mine qualifies. What have I noticed? I took mine to an appraiser before I decided to keep it. I didn’t really understand what hazy or cloudy actually looked like so he reassured me that my stone exhibits none of those qualities. As far as my eyes finding the clouds, I have great near vision and I don’t notice them. I do notice all the pastels and rainbows and lights and fire tho. And my diamond appears crisp and clean! Hope that helps!

If you happen to have any super close-up pics of your diamond from when you bought it, and wouldn't mind sharing/posting here with your cert, I think it’d be super helpful to the discussion! But totally up to you!

According to the gemologist..."may appear cloudy". I wish we knew for sure whether it was cloudy or not. It looks crisp to me in the image (which
doesnt really mean anything except it may not be cloudy or, you can not tell cloudiness from these images). Its unfortunate that we dont know one
way or the other.

Does this stone have a video with it?

Yea, that’s kind of what I’m getting at - is it, or isn’t it. And for a couple reasons - because if it is, then it confirms what we’ve all ready/discussed and Wink & Texas Leaguer noted above. If it’s not, however, actually cloudy, then: 1) maybe even grade-setting clouds in SI1/2 stones shouldn’t ‘collectively’ be given the boot so fast; and, 2) it makes me question the particular vendor who might advise a buyer with “may be” vs. “it is”. This latter thought goes back to my earlier comment about how I wonder if the gemologist actually looked at the diamond and said that, or if he/she just looked at the cert, and thus the “may be” response was given.

And don’t ask me why this has piqued my curiosity so much today, but it has, and I just really want to understand it better for myself as well as when looking at potential suggestions for someone else. Obviously - especially for the latter - I’d always suggest a buyer ask the vendor to confirm. But we are largely buying online and based on what is available to us, and these photos are quite important in the intial “keep or can” decisions we might make.

 

[the_mother_thing]

@tyty333 I forgot to answer your question - there is a typical spinning video of the stone; however, I was avoiding linking the specific diamond in question in hopes of keeping the discussion more ‘educational’ and so as not to call out this particular vendor, given my opining on it’s gemologist above.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

None of the three images above show overt signs of haziness to my eye. Unfortunately, photos and videos are never conclusive. The lighting, photo settings, image editing for web, etc. are significant variables. Haziness is often a subtle effect that often takes a very sophisticated system to detect - I'm referring to the human eye! Actually, two human eyes (binocular vision). And preferably the eyes of an expert trained to look for such things.

A prosumer's challenge is to put a lot of different pieces of information together including lab report, light performance images, photos and videos. Out of that assemblage comes a picture that can inform an opinion of whether a diamond is a good candidate for a shopper with a particular set of goals in mind.

As pointed out already in the thread, shopping the virtual market where limited diagnostics are available, or cannot be independently verified before purchase, makes the process much more subject to chance.

While shopping Si stones is a great way to potentially maximize bang for the buck, because the Si category is quite broad with potential issues such as transparency, eye-clean, etc, diamonds in the virtual market entail more uncertainty than diamonds held in-stock by vendors who can perform the necessary tests and evaluations and provide consultations with diamond in hand.

 

[tyty333]

@tyty333 I forgot to answer your question - there is a typical spinning video of the stone; however, I was avoiding linking the specific diamond in question in hopes of keeping the discussion more ‘educational’ and so as not to call out this particular vendor, given my opining on it’s gemologist above.

No problem...I know what you mean. I was just wondering if you could see anything in the video as the stone turned? I'm guessing not or you would have
already mentioned it. I also find the subject interesting.

 

[Karl_K]

I have seen diamonds before that looked fine face on that when tilted 5 degrees were hazy in some lighting from clouds.
Scatter or the snow globe effect takes place in more bright direct lighting and does not show up well except in very extremes cases in the common video setups.
If a vendor who is selling a stone says it is cloudy I would just move on to another stone.
There is nothing to gain by trying to second guess them with pictures, video and a grading report that may not show the problem.

 

[Lorelei]

Great thread Mother and great replies!