Copying, and ... copying

[yssie]

Ohhhh this is a can of worms Circe!

It's something I feel VERY strongly about - and have taken hits here on PS for. I have no problem at all with "inspired-by" designs - pretty much everything is inspired by in some way! I have no respect at all for a vendor who will agree to clone another vendor's design and execution without adding any of his/her own signature style.

When Sarah contacted me to ask if I'd mind her doing an inspired-by with OECs I was flattered and thought it very sweet of her to have reached out. When I saw the result I was thrilled for her - SK did a beautiful job adapting the design to flatter her stones!

Conversely, when I saw my fivestone cloned (rather, a clone was attempted) I was thoroughly unimpressed. Dreamer pointed it out to me and received a page long rant in reply. The vendor mauled it, frankly, just as he mauled Zahra's RDG and Haven's custom design by Burdeen's... I won't be posting my piece by RDG on PS, in part because I find the idea of running into Klass' "interpretation" one day... vaguely nauseating.

Yssie, you know I like you and I completely understand your POV, but those ladies lurk here and I think they'd be sad to hear someone saying about their engagement rings that they're "mauled." I'm sure they don't think they are, and in fact they probably love them. I think the reason they go to the vendor in question and not the original vendors is because he is just much more affordable. I can't fault them for that. Not everyone has the budget for a $$$ setting. What do you do in that instance if you want a beautiful design but you can't afford the original vendor's price?

Laila - I hope you know that I like and respect you too! This really is something I feel very strongly about - to the point of not seeing the grey at all, though I recognise that you ask a valid question. I've always been very loyal to things - people, ideologies - that I think deserve loyalty... loyal to a fault sometimes. I had a long reply typed up to try to enunciate my feelings but I've deleted most of it as Zahra put it very well.

There's nothing wrong with wanting a beautiful piece but not wanting or being able to spend what the original vendor quotes to recreate the setting. The problems, I think, arise when
A) Neither jeweller nor customer acknowledge that a given design can't be successfully executed given the constraints of budget and the chosen jeweller's abilities, as Zahra said, and
B) The jeweller agrees to attempt an replica of another jeweller's creative vision with no intention of changing anything or adding his/her own signature. I have a fundamental problem with this - designs and specific executions belong to the people and companies that put time, effort, and money into them, and I think other vendors have an obligation to respect the boundaries of that ownership whether or not threats of lawsuits loom.

Recently a longtime PSer had a different vendor recreate another longtime PSer's ring. It's the sort of undertaking that could turn hairy but it ended happily for everyone involved, I think largely because of how the recreator handled it. I'm not trying to suggest what both parties should've done or how they should've felt: it didn't involve me and as such the circumstances and my feelings on them are absolutely beside the point. I'm just going to try to explain why, on reading the story, I was happy for her...

1. She first contacted the vendor that made the original. She respected the idea that the bench that made the original should be the one to recreate it. She didn't move on until it was clear that working with that vendor wasn't feasible (IIRC long-distance projects aren't necessarly that vendor's preference).

2. She contacted the owner of the original. Not necessary, perhaps, but very courteous!!

3. She chose a vendor with a similar specialty and the skills to do the design justice. The copy *isn't* a clone of the original - it's very similar, but the implementation of details is a bit different, and the differences are clearly indicators of a bench that prefers a slightly different aesthetic (vs. that jarring "unfinished" look characteristic of a bench that simply isn't capable of rendering those sorts of details).

4. I've "known" both here on PS for years. I got to see how much effort the original put into finding the stones, choosing a design, and choosing a vendor, and I also know how much thought the recreator puts into her pieces and how much effort goes into making sure they're just right, and this just happened to be the perfect design for her... who am I to judge her poorly for it? (I don't, btw!).

Of course, I couldn't say that the person who copied my ring didn't put lots of thought into it, but I don't "know" her and she did none of the above, and in fact she couldn't even be bothered to spell my handle correctly when posting about it I think it sorta shows exactly how much she values the effort I put into getting the darn thing perfect.

My RDG... I didn't go to Mike with a sketch and say "make that", which might entitle me to some moral or ethical sense of ownership. I went to him with photos of tableware, floral bouquets, and landscapes, and said "these are my inspirations. Make me something beautiful, natural, pointy, wild, and a bit dangerous". Ten months of designing, ruminating, and re-designing later he's come up with a design that's everything I dreamed of. It's perfect for me, and it's going to take him weeks to piece together bit by bit in metal. This is HIS design, and he's the ONLY one with any right to decide whether or not it's up for grabs, and I know how he feels about others copying his custom designs, and since I have proof that there are some jewellers who wouldn't hesitate to do so regardless... it's disappointing because I also know how much he enjoys sharing his passion with others, especially people like PSers who would really appreciate everything that goes into it!

 

[yssie]

Ahem, my honker is a lady! Okay, fine, she might have a drink or two with you, but that's IT! Will you have your RDG piece by then? So excited!!

Oh, quibbling again


I'll have it by then!! Will you have your studs set? If Honker's gonna stand me up I suppose I could compromise

 

[TravelingGal]

Hey Yssie, you talkin' 'bout me?

I've been reading along this thread with interest, as I find this a fascinating topic, and not always black and white.

I've seen my 3 stone pinned in that "other" forum. Speaking ONLY about my ring potentially being copied by that classy designer (or anyone else)...I wouldn't care, because:

1. I wouldn't hold it against anyone for going after what they want
2. Part of the joy for me was in the concept, design, hunt, process, blah blah blah. No one can take that away from me.
3. As to the designer, I would feel a little bad for 23rd street, but not THAT I don't think they'd have any qualm about recreating themselves - Joni didn't make the ring...she envisioned it along with my ideas, but the bench created it. I think that's different from a true artisan who does all the work himself. I've seen 23rd street make replicas themselves, with very little differences - Leon's work for example.

Yes, I put a lot of effort creating the perfect ring for me...but it wasn't really a blood, sweat, and tears project, unlike some here. Plus as Yennyfire's ring goes to show, even with a skilled bench/artisan, it won't be an exact copy. And let's be clear here...to my knowledge, Yenny asked Singlestone to create as close a copy as possible. Any artistic liberties they took was at their discretion. I think they did a great job with their interpretation, but I did think the timing was ironic given a couple weeks prior there was a kerfuffle on RT about Singlestone not wanting any vendor to copy THEIR designs.

That last part was my only eyebrow raise. I was very excited for Yenny, for the reasons that Yssie outlined. I know how hard she searched for designs, the stones, etc. And I was very flattered that for her amazing stones, she wanted to showcase them in a setting like I had made for my stones.

I think with that other forum, because often the stones are sims, there doesn't have to be a lot of forethought to get it "right." There seems to be a lot of instant gratification sought, which Mr. Classy can provide. Most of it, I find humorous since members will want copies but with "bigger stones", which completely throws off the look of the original design, and they usually can't get anywhere close to the original. But I'm happy for them that they are happy with their projects (everyone should enjoy bling, real or not). As for the designers, I'd think...well, even a bad copy should be flattering, shouldn't it? I mean, no one over there is actually claiming it's RDG, Kirsch or whatever?

And to answer the original question...with a lot of designer jewelry, I wouldn't bother trying to recreate. If I loved it, I'd buy the original.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I do wish if copies were made my less expensive means that are less precise than hand forging, that the designer would alter and simplify the designs so that the end piece was no longer an attempted exact copy and instead became an homage to the original that is unique. This is the jewelers responsibility.

As a social psychologist I can't help but think about the wearers psychology as well. The cult of fame tells us a lot about human nature, and I think plays out a little in exact replication of jewelery as well. The nature of social animals is to copy and imitate people who are perceived to be high status. Getting a tonne of attention about a diamond ring creates status or a sort. And so people want to copy that person and maybe attain some status too. I don't think this type of exact replication is just about beauty. All of the rings I can think of that have been copied were a) very large diamonds and b) owned by PSers who got a lot of attention for those designs because of lovely photography and/or their personalities. There are many other gorgeous pieces on PS that never get copied. If it was purely about beauty and aesthetic, we should see a wider range of copies from a variety of PSers: large and small diamond, known and unknown posters. So I think our lizard brains (aka evolved mental systems) affect this process. It is not so different than buying a knock off of the purse or bag as a famous person uses or wears.

Another interesting layer is that the replicator then gets a lot of attention from peers saying the replicated version is even better than the original! Translation: You are cooler and better than the original owner.

I am sure these types of processes are not entirely conscious. But we have all had experiences in life where we long to be like someone else perceived to have what we want -- wealth, popularity, influence, happiness. I think aspirational replication is about trying to be like people we admire in some way.

 

[gammygam]

Agree with so many of the sentiments posted earlier. I really wanted a very unique e-ring and it took me 6 months to find it. I really feel like it would have taken longer if I researched a custom route. I think I would be a little miffed if I did find a poor execution of my ring as well.

I will say that I do think that certain designs a la VCA (I'm thinking the invisible set stones usually in a floral motif) are truly tough to replicate, I've never seen a good knock off.

 

[Kaleigh]

I don't mind if someone copies mine. But I know when Alj had her diamond halo pendant done by WF, I asked her if she minded me having one made. She couldn't have been any nicer about it. Was really lovely about it and excited for me....

 

[TravelingGal]

I do wish if copies were made my less expensive means that are less precise than hand forging, that the designer would alter and simplify the designs so that the end piece was no longer an attempted exact copy and instead became an homage to the original that is unique. This is the jewelers responsibility.

As a social psychologist I can't help but think about the wearers psychology as well. The cult of fame tells us a lot about human nature, and I think plays out a little in exact replication of jewelery as well. The nature of social animals is to copy and imitate people who are perceived to be high status. Getting a tonne of attention about a diamond ring creates status or a sort. And so people want to copy that person and maybe attain some status too. I don't think this type of exact replication is just about beauty. All of the rings I can think of that have been copied were a) very large diamonds and b) owned by PSers who got a lot of attention for those designs because of lovely photography and/or their personalities. There are many other gorgeous pieces on PS that never get copied. If it was purely about beauty and aesthetic, we should see a wider range of copies from a variety of PSers: large and small diamond, known and unknown posters. So I think our lizard brains (aka evolved mental systems) affect this process. It is not so different than buying a knock off of the purse or bag as a famous person uses or wears.

Another interesting layer is that the replicator then gets a lot of attention from peers saying the replicated version is even better than the original! Translation: You are cooler and better than the original owner.

I am sure these types of processes are not entirely conscious. But we have all had experiences in life where we long to be like someone else perceived to have what we want -- wealth, popularity, influence, happiness. I think aspirational replication is about trying to be like people we admire in some way.

Ha Dreamer...maybe. But it can also be simple consumerism and boredom (which can be factors in THIS forum, btw!)

Referring to some of the specific "copies" discuss here, I see it as, "ooh, look, pretty! I want one! I can buy a fake X for $X and have the look made for a fraction of the cost!"

Yeah sure, a ring that gets plenty of attention here is going to get the attention of lurkers as well. But it's not always because the diamond is big or the wearer popular...it's usually because the design is somewhat novel by PS standards.

 

[gemtastic]

I am not sure I understand why individual posters would be upset if their rings were copied. Everything seems to go in trends here in pricescope:
1. cushion cuts in HW inspired pave
2. JM bezel set rings
3. H&A, super ideal cuts
4. 5 stone rings, uprongs vs trellis
5. the emilya halo
5. OMCs, then OECs, then having 3 of them, then having >9mm spread, sourcing the right antique setting, but don't copy a very specific antique setting, and people selling their MRB to change to an OEC.

The only rings I think have been truly unique have been by Mike Robinson (Zhara's and Arjunajane's). I do see the issue with copying these rings. I just don't see it being a major issue. The majority of "new" OECs posted here are in vintage settings, because that has the mass appeal. Arjunajane's OEC setting appeals to me, but I don't see it being replicated here. I also don't think I could find a jeweler capable of reproducing his work. Similar with Zhara's. Her ring is divine; but again, we haven't seen a new trend develop here. WHat we have seen is a lot more interest in people wanting their OWN RDG ring. I think that is great.

So my conclusion would be that if people are upset that "their" ring is being copied by the masses, then maybe their design wasn''t so unique to begin with if it has broad appeal. I know that sounds harsh, but so have some of the threads that have come out about copies.

 

[ForteKitty]

I am not sure I understand why individual posters would be upset if their rings were copied. Everything seems to go in trends here in pricescope:

5. OMCs, then OECs, then having 3 of them, then having >9mm spread, sourcing the right antique setting, but don't copy a very specific antique setting, and people selling their MRB to change to an OEC.

Gah! I must have missed the memo, as I am now approaching 45 oecs...

 

[BriBee]

My engagement ring was copied, but it doesn't bother me at all because, in my opinion, I have the far superior product. However, I know that my jeweller was particularly frustrated by the incident, because the design is incredibly unique and the execution was incredibly challenging and he put a lot of work into getting those things as perfect as they could be. I think you're right - most vendors would not hesitate to add a Harry Winston-esque halo ring to their setting offering, but they would all be furious if their one-off, custom designs were replicated across the industry (with variable quality).

When I first read this post, Zahra's ring was the first thing that came to mind...mainly due to how unique it is. I found myself thinking that copies of solitaires and three stone rings don't bother me so much, but copying something like Z's ring is where it crosses the line (for me).

I feel like anytime someone gets custom work done, there will always be an element of copying unless you've been able to design or sketch things yourself that are truly unique. I admire these people becuase they are more creative and artistic than I am. Although I don't technically mind the copies of more simple designs, I myself feel guilty when I do any sort of copying.

For example, I got my stone from GOG and would have really preferred to just have them order me the Vatche setting that I wanted, and have them set it. However, in the end SO and I wanted to go with a local jeweler (we are in CA) so we could have a "home base" for cleaning, inspection etc...On top of that, our local guy was willing to take my old setting (he made it) back and give us a credit towards our new setting which saved us so much money...we only came out of pocket a few hundred dollars vs the $2k+ the Vatche would have cost us. So we went to our local jeweler armed with several different pictures of the Vatche setting we liked, along with a pic of a PS ring that had prongs I liked. These were to just give him an idea of what we wanted because I did NOT feel comfortable saying "make me an exact copy of this!" I was also concerned that it might seem offensive to him, as an artist, to demand a copy rather than let him use some artistic license on the design (I love his work).

Hahaha, so I guess after that long post I would sum it up saying that 1) I don't mind copies of simpler designs or some of the big expensive designers like Tiff, HW, Cartier etc. 2) I do NOT approve of copying something so unique and custom like Z's ring. 3) I feel guilty for doing any copying, but I know this is unavoidable and I'm not creative enough to design my own ring

 

[iheartscience]

I am not sure I understand why individual posters would be upset if their rings were copied. Everything seems to go in trends here in pricescope:

5. OMCs, then OECs, then having 3 of them, then having >9mm spread, sourcing the right antique setting, but don't copy a very specific antique setting, and people selling their MRB to change to an OEC.

Gah! I must have missed the memo, as I am now approaching 45 oecs...

Now that is a trend I want in on!

 

[gemtastic]

6. french cuts

I guess I also am bad at numbering

45 OECs would make one heck of a DBY necklace!

 

[yennyfire]

Ohhhh this is a can of worms Circe!

It's something I feel VERY strongly about - and have taken hits here on PS for. I have no problem at all with "inspired-by" designs - pretty much everything is inspired by in some way! I have no respect at all for a vendor who will agree to clone another vendor's design and execution without adding any of his/her own signature style.

When Sarah contacted me to ask if I'd mind her doing an inspired-by with OECs I was flattered and thought it very sweet of her to have reached out. When I saw the result I was thrilled for her - SK did a beautiful job adapting the design to flatter her stones!

Conversely, when I saw my fivestone cloned (rather, a clone was attempted) I was thoroughly unimpressed. Dreamer pointed it out to me and received a page long rant in reply. The vendor mauled it, frankly, just as he mauled Zahra's RDG and Haven's custom design by Burdeen's... I won't be posting my piece by RDG on PS, in part because I find the idea of running into Klass' "interpretation" one day... vaguely nauseating.

Yssie, you know I like you and I completely understand your POV, but those ladies lurk here and I think they'd be sad to hear someone saying about their engagement rings that they're "mauled." I'm sure they don't think they are, and in fact they probably love them. I think the reason they go to the vendor in question and not the original vendors is because he is just much more affordable. I can't fault them for that. Not everyone has the budget for a $$$ setting. What do you do in that instance if you want a beautiful design but you can't afford the original vendor's price?

Laila - I hope you know that I like and respect you too! This really is something I feel very strongly about - to the point of not seeing the grey at all, though I recognise that you ask a valid question. I've always been very loyal to things - people, ideologies - that I think deserve loyalty... loyal to a fault sometimes. I had a long reply typed up to try to enunciate my feelings but I've deleted most of it as Zahra put it very well.

There's nothing wrong with wanting a beautiful piece but not wanting or being able to spend what the original vendor quotes to recreate the setting. The problems, I think, arise when
A) Neither jeweller nor customer acknowledge that a given design can't be successfully executed given the constraints of budget and the chosen jeweller's abilities, as Zahra said, and
B) The jeweller agrees to attempt an replica of another jeweller's creative vision with no intention of changing anything or adding his/her own signature. I have a fundamental problem with this - designs and specific executions belong to the people and companies that put time, effort, and money into them, and I think other vendors have an obligation to respect the boundaries of that ownership whether or not threats of lawsuits loom.

Recently a longtime PSer had a different vendor recreate another longtime PSer's ring. It's the sort of undertaking that could turn hairy but it ended happily for everyone involved, I think largely because of how the recreator handled it. I'm not trying to suggest what both parties should've done or how they should've felt: it didn't involve me and as such the circumstances and my feelings on them are absolutely beside the point. I'm just going to try to explain why, on reading the story, I was happy for her...

1. She first contacted the vendor that made the original. She respected the idea that the bench that made the original should be the one to recreate it. She didn't move on until it was clear that working with that vendor wasn't feasible (IIRC long-distance projects aren't necessarly that vendor's preference).

2. She contacted the owner of the original. Not necessary, perhaps, but very courteous!!

3. She chose a vendor with a similar specialty and the skills to do the design justice. The copy *isn't* a clone of the original - it's very similar, but the implementation of details is a bit different, and the differences are clearly indicators of a bench that prefers a slightly different aesthetic (vs. that jarring "unfinished" look characteristic of a bench that simply isn't capable of rendering those sorts of details).

4. I've "known" both here on PS for years. I got to see how much effort the original put into finding the stones, choosing a design, and choosing a vendor, and I also know how much thought the recreator puts into her pieces and how much effort goes into making sure they're just right, and this just happened to be the perfect design for her... who am I to judge her poorly for it? (I don't, btw!).

Of course, I couldn't say that the person who copied my ring didn't put lots of thought into it, but I don't "know" her and she did none of the above, and in fact she couldn't even be bothered to spell my handle correctly when posting about it I think it sorta shows exactly how much she values the effort I put into getting the darn thing perfect.

My RDG... I didn't go to Mike with a sketch and say "make that", which might entitle me to some moral or ethical sense of ownership. I went to him with photos of tableware, floral bouquets, and landscapes, and said "these are my inspirations. Make me something beautiful, natural, pointy, wild, and a bit dangerous". Ten months of designing, ruminating, and re-designing later he's come up with a design that's everything I dreamed of. It's perfect for me, and it's going to take him weeks to piece together bit by bit in metal. This is HIS design, and he's the ONLY one with any right to decide whether or not it's up for grabs, and I know how he feels about others copying his custom designs, and since I have proof that there are some jewellers who wouldn't hesitate to do so regardless... it's disappointing because I also know how much he enjoys sharing his passion with others, especially people like PSers who would really appreciate everything that goes into it!

I think you *may* be talking about me and my 3 stone Yssie? If so, I'm flattered, thank you. If not, my situation was remarkably similar. I felt that contacting the original owner was critical, and thank goodness she was so gracious about sharing her design with me. I'm not sure what I would have done had she felt differently. That said, any vintage design is a copy or derivation of another (incidentally, I just saw a 3 stone on 1st Dibs that was almost identical to the 3 stone TGal and I have. It is an original setting and my first thought was that TGal and i have good taste, lol! And, I'm pretty sure the original owner would have been pleased that her design is still being copied 100 years later!) It's not really fair to get upset about someone copying " your" design when it's something that has been around in some form or another for 100+ years.

Now, copying ZLs ring (for example) is another kettle of fish. That was a creation designed by the artist for her specifically and I think I might have been rather upset if it were copied. Not to mention, I feel terrible for the artist.

ETA: just saw TGals response and wanted to add a couple of points. I did ask Ari to make as close a copy as possible. He suggested a minor tweak, which I approved. I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with TGal that I honestly thought it was odd that SS was willing to copy the ring on the heels of a post where they were unhappy that someone copied their design. Additionally, they are now "sharing" some of their designs with DBL, which kind of surprised me because of that earlier post. For the record, I adore Ari and SS, but I did raise my eyebrows about that because I found it contradictory.
I'm sad that we won't get to see your RDG, but I certainly understand why you're taking this approach.

 

[cygnet]

Yssie, I'm so disappointed that we won't get to see your RDG ring, but as a few other people have said already, it's understandable. I'm super bummed out though because you have such excellent taste, and so does Mike, and it's going to be incredible, but... I'll try to get over it. Maybe I'll just have to meet you in person someday and see it then!

p.s. Octavia will be done this week.... eep!

 

[TravelingGal]

Hey Yssie, can I ask what you are at least setting with RGD (and what it will be?) At least come back and let us know if you are happy with the outcome!

 

[Haven]

This is a timely thread for me because I just saw a copy of my ring on a forum for fake diamonds. I don't care if someone copies it well, and by well I mean the piece is crafted with enough skill to capture the original's fluidity and charm. Seeing a poorly made copy does churn my stomach a bit, not going to pretend it doesn't. It feels like someone said, "Hey, this ring looks just like yours!" and then proceeded to hold up a fun-house mirror to my hand. That might not make sense to anyone else, but that's how it felt when I first saw this particular "copy" of my ring.

ETA: I'll also admit to being annoyed/shocked by all the "Yours is so much better than the original!" comments in the copied ring's thread. Silly but true.

AND, I think common courtesy would dictate that the woman copying my ring exactly should have posted in my ring's thread. A quick, "I love your ring so much I'm having a copy made!" would have been nice, since she's obviously a forum user already.

My jeweler calls me to get my permission every time someone calls him asking to have my ring made. I think that's nice.

 

[Deactivated member 42515]

This is a timely thread for me because I just saw a copy of my ring on a forum for fake diamonds. I don't care if someone copies it well, and by well I mean the piece is crafted with enough skill to capture the original's fluidity and charm. Seeing a poorly made copy does churn my stomach a bit, not going to pretend it doesn't. It feels like someone said, "Hey, this ring looks just like yours!" and then proceeded to hold up a fun-house mirror to my hand. That might not make sense to anyone else, but that's how it felt when I first saw this particular "copy" of my ring.

ETA: I'll also admit to being annoyed/shocked by all the "Yours is so much better than the original!" comments in the copied ring's thread. Silly but true.

AND, I think common courtesy would dictate that the woman copying my ring exactly should have posted in my ring's thread. A quick, "I love your ring so much I'm having a copy made!" would have been nice, since she's obviously a forum user already.

My jeweler calls me to get my permission every time someone calls him asking to have my ring made. I think that's nice.

This is what fueled my anger Haven. I saw that thread and I wanted to say something! And those comments about "your's is better than the original," Argh! Dumb!

 

[Dreamer_D]

I do wish if copies were made my less expensive means that are less precise than hand forging, that the designer would alter and simplify the designs so that the end piece was no longer an attempted exact copy and instead became an homage to the original that is unique. This is the jewelers responsibility.

As a social psychologist I can't help but think about the wearers psychology as well. The cult of fame tells us a lot about human nature, and I think plays out a little in exact replication of jewelery as well. The nature of social animals is to copy and imitate people who are perceived to be high status. Getting a tonne of attention about a diamond ring creates status or a sort. And so people want to copy that person and maybe attain some status too. I don't think this type of exact replication is just about beauty. All of the rings I can think of that have been copied were a) very large diamonds and b) owned by PSers who got a lot of attention for those designs because of lovely photography and/or their personalities. There are many other gorgeous pieces on PS that never get copied. If it was purely about beauty and aesthetic, we should see a wider range of copies from a variety of PSers: large and small diamond, known and unknown posters. So I think our lizard brains (aka evolved mental systems) affect this process. It is not so different than buying a knock off of the purse or bag as a famous person uses or wears.

Another interesting layer is that the replicator then gets a lot of attention from peers saying the replicated version is even better than the original! Translation: You are cooler and better than the original owner.

I am sure these types of processes are not entirely conscious. But we have all had experiences in life where we long to be like someone else perceived to have what we want -- wealth, popularity, influence, happiness. I think aspirational replication is about trying to be like people we admire in some way.

Ha Dreamer...maybe. But it can also be simple consumerism and boredom (which can be factors in THIS forum, btw!)

Referring to some of the specific "copies" discuss here, I see it as, "ooh, look, pretty! I want one! I can buy a fake X for $X and have the look made for a fraction of the cost!"

Yeah sure, a ring that gets plenty of attention here is going to get the attention of lurkers as well. But it's not always because the diamond is big or the wearer popular...it's usually because the design is somewhat novel by PS standards.

Every behavior is multiply determined. Sometimes one factor is more active than another or moderated by the presence of other factors. So we can both be right.

I think the factors I pointed out operate more than anyone would like to admit. No one wants to think that their behavior is affected by such mundane things as "being cool". But it affects us all implicitly. Even though lots of people will fight to the grave denying that their own behavior is so influenced. Denial is not only a river in Egypt

 

[wakingdreams53]

When I had a replica of an antique ring made, DanielM asked who the jeweler was and wanted to tweak it in order to be fair to the original designer. Since it was a completely antique piece and the designer was long gone, it wasn't a problem, but I nonetheless tweaked it to make it more personal. If that wasn't the case, I'd have never posted it on PS, but because it was already a piece that existed, as a previous poster said, it's just being replicated 100+ years later-- it's more complimentary than detrimental. Another reason being that it's an Etsy seller and anyone could already see the ring if they'd look at their sold pieces.

However, I don't think I'll post my antique pear e-ring when I have it made. It would be completely unique and personalized to me and while I know that just the cut itself is unique, it would genuinely infuriate me to see a replica on any site (unless my permission was granted, but I don't even want that to be an option).

I feel like certain things are very personal and posting them on the internet takes your power away completely.

 

[Matata]

If I were in a social circle with someone who copied my ring with a poorly made knockoff and we saw each other all the time in group situations where a lot of conversation about the rings ensued, I'd get irritated if I had to keep answering questions about the differences in the rings and I would set the record straight. If the ring were of the same quality, it wouldn't bother me a bit to have another person wearing the same thing.

What I don't understand is why someone would get upset about a stranger one is unlikely to meet copying a ring, be it an exact duplicate of the same quality or a piece of poo. Why would someone let a stranger -- even another PSer -- affect one's happiness that way.

And about the mindset that one's ring design is unique and one of a kind -- it's a myth. Someone, somewhere has something just like it and s/he was first. And then there are a million variations on a theme.

Couple years ago, someone posted their LM ring and waxed eloquent about how long it took to come up with the design and what the inspiration ring looked like (a near duplicate of her LM) and how unique her LM was (posted on his site for anyone to use as their inspiration by the way). I was looking for ideas for my RHR about the same time and came across a vintage ring at auction that was exactly like the PSers "unique one-of-a-kind ring." So she's wearing something she thinks is unique yet someone a hundred years ago had already designed it and some other woman, long dead, wore it, and some lucky contemporary woman is now wearing it. And yet life goes on.

 

[House Cat]

It makes me sad that people will not be posting their rings.

I thought people took pride in inspiring others with their unique designs? I thought that was one of the facets of SMTB?

 

[E B]

Gah! I must have missed the memo, as I am now approaching 45 oecs...

45?!

If you're ever looking to unload a few of those, I may know of someone- or ones- who may be interested.

 

[OneFifty]

It makes me sad that people will not be posting their rings.

I thought people took pride in inspiring others with their unique designs? I thought that was one of the facets of SMTB?

I too am disappointed that I will not be seeing these gorgeous rings. However, I understand both sides of the argument.

 

[SB621]

Ok enough of you lovely ladies have my email so someone please send me a link to these copies threads!!! I'm dying here and google is coming up with nothing...first time EVER that google has failed me!

 

[yssie]

I've been thinking about this more and I think I see three separate issues:
- Not wanting the piece copied at all
- Not wanting the piece recreated by anyone other than the original jeweller
- Wanting a design done well, whether or not it's a copy, whether or not it's done by the original jeweller

I know it's not really that black and white and that one might feel strongly (or not) several ways but it's the best outline I could come up with for how I personally feel. With my trellis its strictly #2 and #3 - DBL or Canera could remake it millions of times and honestly, I'd be thrilled and flattered to imagine that it has such mass appeal! But with my RDG it's all three - I wouldn't even want Mike remaking it exactly for someone else, though I imagine I'd be fine with an adaptation for someone else or his own collection... so long as I get mine first. It's like I wrote to a friend: he designed it for *me* and I want to be the first to get to fall in love with it.

TGal, yenny - well, I was careful not to specify! But yes, of course 23rd, SS, DBL... yikes! I honestly wouldn't know what to make of that!! Really, I'm trying to imagine how I'd feel and I can't come up with anything - other than bemused
My RDG will be a RHR/alternate Ering w/ diamonds - and my trellis setting stays right where it is!

Dreamer - so if I copy Yenny's and do it with bigger stones does that make me cooler than both her and TGal?
That's a depressing statement. I can't really believe that someone would angle for some misguided notion of status on a forum by a metric as bizarre as a ring - and to the tune of thousands of dollars! I attribute the "it's better than the original!!" commentary to your river in Egypt, mostly.

Gemtastic - I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I can't figure out why one might feel any combination of those three things for different pieces and I know I certainly do. It's not having a hand in the original design - it's not the sense of ownership like I was talking about before. How the jeweller feels is definitely part of it, but there's more to it.
I don't agree that whether or not a piece has mass appeal has any bearing on how someone might feel about having it copied (#1), and I definitely don't agree that someone *should* feel a certain way about it.
Btw klewis has a spess ring by RDG - I don't know if you deliberately left it off your list but IMO it surely belongs.

Haven - I'd wondered if you knew. Based on what you've said on here in the past I thought you might have some of that same sense of loyalty to the original vendor... but overall I think you're really just a much more generous and empathetic person than I am so I wouldn't have tried to guess how you'd feel

K, I think I'd best back away now

 

[yssie]

//threadjack
Cygnet - this week?! Awesome
wakingdreams - OMG..! Need to get home...

 

[Haven]

What I don't understand is why someone would get upset about a stranger one is unlikely to meet copying a ring, be it an exact duplicate of the same quality or a piece of poo. Why would someone let a stranger -- even another PSer -- affect one's happiness that way.

I'm not upset about it, and it definitely isn't affecting my happiness! For me, seeing a copy of my ring that looks so *not* like my ring is like having someone paint my portrait only to reveal a picture of someone I don't recognize. It's unsettling in a way I can't really explain. Do I really care that this happens? No. But when it's brought to my attention it's momentarily annoying.

And I do know my ring isn't a unique original, so none of this should even annoy me, but it does!

 

[gregchang35]

This is a very interesting topic and it has taken me a few days to make my response. I hope I can get my message across reasonably well.

I will caveat to say that this is MY OPINION and my opinion only.

With respect to ring designs (and the SMTB folder- google images), this is a great way to inspire ppl to make/copy/modify the ring design for themselves. I don't see an issue with that, as it is something that you are 'designing' for yourself. if it is a direct copy, it is great as it is something that you have wanted; maybe finances are such that you can't have an original piece by that designer. Granted it was someone else's original idea. Fashion in all facets of life will have ppl that mimic that style. My reasoning is this: who has had the Jennifer Anniston's hair style back in the 90's? Who copied Lady Diana's engagement ring in the 80's. Who has also bought Rolex "inspired' watches or the GUCCI inspired glasses from wherever they went on holidays, or that Kelly Hermes inspired bag and so on. There are many examples in real life. Who have diamond studs that are in a (4 or 6 prong) martini setting in WG/RG or YG. Is that a copy? There are many jewellers that can do this and unfortunately, it will be 'copied'; as that is the design of them. Do we expect to modify these designs so that it isn't an exact copy? Maybe if you want something different/ original. I guess it gets a bit grey in the meaning of copy.

The original designer should be credited for sure: GUCCI Inspired.

For me, it becomes an issue when the item is being sold as the original, when it isn't. That is fraud.

I also understand that when unique and original pieces have been created and ppl copy designs, it becomes a little tainted for some. The hours that it took for you to research the idea, countless emails/ conversation with the designer, many drawings/CADs later; and it is now copied by someone else, in less time that it took for you and your designer to do.

For me, if i see a copy of my design- i think that it is a great reflection as they see MY design and liked it and got one for themselves. It is like an affirmation that my style is great enough for others to follow. I am the trend setter, as such. Unfortunately, it is the designer that loses out as they do not get to do the repeat work. I think there was another thread about who gets to trademark/ credit for designs- the designer or the person that makes the design. i digress.

On the flip side where the copy seems to have been a POOR imitation, it is sad. But, if the person wearing that poor imitation is happy, does it matter?

For me, i think that a direct copy/ modified/ variation etc is just a great way of seeing that your design/ taste is awesome enough for others to be inspired to get one made for themselves.

If you want unique (one off) and you have a unique piece, sharing on the internet is not something that i would do. However, if you want to be the doyenne of fashion- place it on SMTB folder!

I say = SHARE AWAY.....

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I do think it depends. Almost no jewelry design is truly original, as others have said. Many of Mike's designs are true original works of art, and in that respect, I would have him make me something similar if I loved a piece so much that I had to have one similar to it. Although working with him in another country and the probable pricing of the item makes that unlikely for me, but I would not even consider having someone else copy his work. But few things are that original. And for that matter, RDG makes more traditional rings that are not original as well. And if JBEG has their designs copyrighted, then I respect that, too. So for me, the designs either need to be copyrighted OR so unique that the design has never been done before. However, as someone else said, almost every great thing that is created is almost always replicated, and it is usually in a less expensive form....fashion, furniture, art, jewelry, etc. So be flattered that others value your taste and be satisfied that you have the very best! (And what in the world are some of y'all doing on that other forum anyway???)

I want to let everyone know that I will not mind if you copy my Vatche Tiffany repro!

(Greg posted while I was typing...good post, Greg!)

 

[VRBeauty]

This is a timely thread for me because I just saw a copy of my ring on a forum for fake diamonds. I don't care if someone copies it well, and by well I mean the piece is crafted with enough skill to capture the original's fluidity and charm. Seeing a poorly made copy does churn my stomach a bit, not going to pretend it doesn't. It feels like someone said, "Hey, this ring looks just like yours!" and then proceeded to hold up a fun-house mirror to my hand. That might not make sense to anyone else, but that's how it felt when I first saw this particular "copy" of my ring.

ETA: I'll also admit to being annoyed/shocked by all the "Yours is so much better than the original!" comments in the copied ring's thread. Silly but true.

AND, I think common courtesy would dictate that the woman copying my ring exactly should have posted in my ring's thread. A quick, "I love your ring so much I'm having a copy made!" would have been nice, since she's obviously a forum user already.

My jeweler calls me to get my permission every time someone calls him asking to have my ring made. I think that's nice.

FWIW I found the pictures of the copy of your ring (it wasn't hard to find) and personally, I far prefer your ring - the proportions are more to my taste and for some reason I think the fact that it's an original comes through.

But... I also found myself being happy for the owner of the copy ring, who was soooo excited with her ring. A lot of us are here and participate in Rocky Talky etc. because that's what we want each other, and for the strangers who come here looking for help: to "love" our new jewels and the end results of our projects. We also hope that the love will last... but that's a topic for another thread.