Copying, and ... copying

[pinkjewel]

KR- good points, it is difficult to get in touch with people privately here with no pm function. I just went over to the other forum and read the thread talking about this one. Kind of hard to imagine anyone admiring us with some of the comments I read-lol. More like most thought of us as uppity snobs, but maybe that's just an outspoke fraction-sigh. I will say I admire many of the people here and am totally in awe of their jewelry and knowledge,too. It is not an unfriendly place- so y'all that are lurking-come on over as most of us don't bite!!

As far as asking permission for a copy I can't speak for anyone else's designs, but when RDG makes a design the watercolor design has a copyright on it that says that only RDG can make or quote the ring- that is what is on my watercolor. So, it wouldn't be ME to ask about copying my ring- it would be Mike R.

 

[rubybeth]

If the decorous thing to do would be to ask permission from the original owner if someone wanted to do a "copy" or "inspired piece", can I ask how one would go about doing that? There isn't a PM system here. So...one has to do it... publicly?

KR, I think that's an excellent question. I don't have the answer, just another question: how would you find the original version of a piece if you say it in a Google image search or via a site like Pinterest or Tumblr? I see a certain PSers' ring all.over.the.place on various boards on Pinterest, and whoever posted it first got the details waaaay wrong and said it was an antique, but it is not. I also keep seeing an asscher ring posted as an 'antique princess' and it drives me batty. There's no way to correct every single re-pinner and tell them they got it wrong, though I have tried. I know how to do a more advanced search to find an image source, but if you aren't tech savvy, see a ring on Pinterest, don't know it's an original design by a person you can really contact via a board like this, then what?

 

[Circe]

KR, I've never to the best of my knowledge been copied, so this is entirely hypothetical. That said, though ... a lot of what you just said is importing an awful lot onto the owners of potential pieces to be copied. I've been here ... five years? No, must by almost seven, if I'm coming up on my seventh wedding anniversary. I've NEVER seen a poster here act like a jerk like that, at least not about jewelry. About politics ... or pets (hey, DF!), sometimes, maybe, sure. But jewelry? Nope.

If a person wanted to make an inspired-by piece and asked publicly, by posting a thread or whatever, I think they'd generally be seen as having fulfilled propriety. I don't think the original owner would get a say in the design (!!!), though I think it WOULD be assumed that, yeah, there'd be a conscious effort to make it "inspired by" and not a clone. But that's something between the jeweler and the conscience and their copyright lawyer, I guess. And if they didn't want to take that chance? Generally, the mods are pretty nice about putting people in touch. All of the jewelers have their info publicly posted. It's not insurmountable.

I also sincerely doubt I am one of the people you're talking about with the celeb status because, hey, small fry, and deeply okay with it, but, uh ... I joined the other board ages ago, and haven't posted much, largely BECAUSE of that. It doestn't feel like the "nice" kind of celeb treatment, with admiration: it looks a lot more like the modern kind where people seem to think there's free reign to tear people apart. The other thread has some really angry, vituperative posts, and a fair number of others ascribing snobbery and brand-whoring and a bunch of other stuff that just isn't here. Definitely not in this thread, I can say after a quick look-through, and while it might be around in general ... it certainly isn't aimed at anybody, whereas the generalizing "all those other ladies think they're better than us!" is really specific and really toxic. It's a weird combo of chip-on-shoulder and moral superiority, and while I'm sure it's out there in our weird materialistic society, I don't for the life of me know why it's always aimed at the other ladies who love the bling. I thought we'd have more in common than not!

Bottom line, I guess, goes back to my earlier post - both sides have hurt feelings. But there's something a little ... off ... about the idea that people who feel hurt need to put the feelings of the ones who hurt them first. Maybe we should just draw a line and be better from here on out?

 

[iheartscience]

Hi,

I have a question.

If the decorous thing to do would be to ask permission from the original owner if someone wanted to do a "copy" or "inspired piece", can I ask how one would go about doing that? There isn't a PM system here. So...one has to do it... publicly?

And then is the original owner going to have conditions if they say yes? For example, "yes, but only if you get it done by the original designer. I don't want it to be a 'desecration' of mine. And It has to be hand forged and have the fluidity or my original" or "yes, but don't change the shank/basket/halo/struts/prongs/etc. That would make it a mauled version of the design"

I'm not posing a rhetorical question here, so please don't read it as that. I'm just trying to take a practical approach here, and I am really, very interested in seeing what you all have to say about what would be the specific protocols if someone did want to approach you, especially if they have no way to contact you privately on PS, and what would the contact would entail.

For example, if it's has to be public, you can see how scary that could be to someone right? The risk of rejection, ridicule of differing ideas, the embarrassing exposure of budget constraints, unwelcomed input in terms of what vendor to use and what design changes they can or cannot to make?

If it can be private, then...how would one go about finding a private way to contact you without a PM system? Go internet sleuthing? The internet is a very open place and any info or contact information can be found pretty easily now that we are in the age of social networking sites as the norm. And then it gets even easier if you have access to westlaw or lexis nexis as well. But is that what you want? Do you want strangers to regularly hunt for you elsewhere, maybe even on your office email that you posted somewhere because that was the only contact information they could link you to, in order to have a private conversation to ask about your permission to copy your jewelry design?

I also want to say this. Just to give a little perspective and then an analogy. I can't speak for everyone, but some girls over there feel like some of you ARE like celebrities. Inaccessible people who are in the public eye, with higher incomes, grander design ideas, wider resources, who have their own circle of other like people to share them with while the rest of the world watches them set trends, etc... They speak highly of you, admire you, are inspired by you, and some even want to copy you. So, that being said, when I went to my hair stylist to copy Nicole Richie's hair cut and brought several pictures, I didn't think that I should contact her for her permission or that I'd be insulting her if I made a few personal changes, or that I'd be desecrating the style if my hair stylist didn't execute it as well. That was my mind set. But if she did end up finding my picture on the internet one day and then told a magazine about how disgusted she was with my version and wished I had consulted her first, I would definitely be hurt and inconsolable. I guess I could have hunted her down and asked her, but I didn't know that I should have or needed to.

Great post, KR. Asking is nice and all, but I don't think it's practical or necessary. And if someone asked a PSer if they could make a copy of their ring and the poster said no, should they really be expected to not get the ring they love? Kind of ridiculous.

I'm not trying to discount the feelings of the people who don't like their rings copied, because I can see where they're coming from, whether I agree with it or not. But like pinkjewels said, it's a big world, and I guess I don't see why it's a BFD that a random stranger on the internet has a similar design. Now if it was someone you knew IRL, that would be a bit more annoying.

 

[SB621]

KR - I had a 3 stone version of Yssie's ring made by SK which was mentioned earlier in this thread. Yssie follow my progress from picking out the stones to trying to figure out a setting that I loved. My dream setting was out of the question as I was having issues finding elements I needed for the ring. However I loved and coveted Yssie's ring so in my thread where I was working out setting details I simplyed asked Yssie if she could contact me offline because I had some questions for her. She has no problem with me copying or using her ring as an inspiration. My ring is not a carbon copy of her 3/5 stone but it is definitely similar enough that anyone who saw it would know it was based heavily off her ring. If she had said no- that would have been fine. I would have done a plain trellis setting or perhaps would have just waited to find the elements of my dream 3 stone. IF she had put stipulations on the ring (designer, structural elements etc) I would have used my own judgement to move forward or not. But I do think she has a right to say - "this ring is special to me and I would rather have you not copy it." Regardless I do find it common curtesy to at least ask or try to ask. Especially on PS where Yssie and I post in many of the same threads. If I didn't ask I would have felt I was going behind her back- something I'm not morally OK with. If I was not on PS and I found her ring on pinterest I see if differently as there really isn't a way to backtrack to her. But I still would have tried to find out where the ring came from to at least see the jeweler that created it.

In seems there are many members that cross post between both forums. It is obvious who the owners of rings are so to contact someone on or offline is still possible with little effort. We are a small community of bling lovers and though we are geographically spaced anything posted on either site seems to be watched. For that reason alone I would ask.

 

[SB621]

About politics ... or pets (hey, DF!), sometimes, maybe, sure. But jewelry? Nope.

?

BHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHHHAHAHAHA I just choaked on my water reading this!

 

[Matata]

I think the issue of how to determine whether something is original and whether you should make the effort to identify and contact the owner/creator when you've found an unidentified image on the internet is a moot point. As far as images found here being copied, it seems like there's no good solution--some people will not be upset and some will be upset; some asking permission to copy or use an inspired design will back off if the original owner says "no" and some will proceed without the original owner's blessing. So we seem to have agreed that not posting pictures is the best way to ensure that pieces won't get copied from here. I'm hoping that those who decide not to post pictures will also keep to themselves the fact that they have projects in the works. It would appear petty and selfish to expect to bask in the excitement of members here over something that won't be seen. And I must confess that it would irk me to see someone's ego fed by PSers lamenting the fact that they won't be privy to a photo.

If one good thing comes of this discussion, I hope it's a clearing of the air between PSers & BTD and a resolution reached that we can respect our differences and enjoy our similarities. I hope that Ella or Andrey can clarify here for BTDers the reason why sims are not part of this board. BTDers seem to think it's for negative reasons and it's better to get a clarification from the owners of PS than having members give their interpretation.

 

[Circe]

I think the issue of how to determine whether something is original and whether you should make the effort to identify and contact the owner/creator when you've found an unidentified image on the internet is a moot point. As far as images found here being copied, it seems like there's no good solution--some people will not be upset and some will be upset; some asking permission to copy or use an inspired design will back off if the original owner says "no" and some will proceed without the original owner's blessing. So we seem to have agreed that not posting pictures is the best way to ensure that pieces won't get copied from here. I'm hoping that those who decide not to post pictures will also keep to themselves the fact that they have projects in the works. It would appear petty and selfish to expect to bask in the excitement of members here over something that won't be seen. And I must confess that it would irk me to see someone's ego fed by PSers lamenting the fact that they won't be privy to a photo.

If one good thing comes of this discussion, I hope it's a clearing of the air between PSers & BTD and a resolution reached that we can respect our differences and enjoy our similarities. I hope that Ella or Andrey can clarify here for BTDers the reason why sims are not part of this board. BTDers seem to think it's for negative reasons and it's better to get a clarification from the owners of PS than having members give their interpretation.

I dunno, Matata, that's not the part I'm reading as selfish. I don't want to cheapen the whole concept of victim-blaming - I mean, at the end of the day, it's still just jewelry - but it's a little messed up to say that if you don't want your intellectual property copied, you should keep it to yourself.

And as for why sims aren't welcome? I would have thought that was self explanatory. The diamond board is funded by advertisers selling diamonds. Why on earth would they want to dilute their profit pool? The sim board is run by a company selling sims. It's a unidirectional relationship, since the thing being simulated implies an interest in the original, but no jeweler in his or her right mind would want to encourage people to get the thing with the smaller profit margin. It's just sensible business.

The more interesting thing, to me, is why we all choose to belong to the boards that we do - we have some actual crossover, and some lurking, but most people feel a lot more comfortable with one board culture over the other. It's intriguing.

 

[yssie]

Finding a random ring through a Google images search and having NO idea where it came from, and not being able to find out anything else about it (BTDT!) is pretty different from seeing a ring on a forum where the owner's name is on the left side of the screen There are threads paging a specific poster all the time, and often when one is started others who do have offline access to that person will point them to it, and I've never gone to the mods but perhaps they might be willing to pass on the occasional message? Of course none of that is a guarantee that the poster will see it and respond, but if it's a pretty recent ring and a pretty regular poster your odds of getting in touch are pretty good!

Is getting in touch with the original owner necessary? No. Is it courteous? Yes. Does it help avoid potentially hurt feelings? Yes.
Is it worth it? Depends, I guess.
And as pinkjewel brought up sometimes it's even not the original customer's call, it's the designer's.


Matata - no, it's not a moot point, as evidenced by what's been said right here on this thread. You may feel that way but others don't. As for the bit about ego stroking - would you have preferred that I concoct a "hypothetical example"? The comparison was a natural and fluid illustration of how I feel about this specific issue and was therefore pertinent to this specific thread, and the reason there won't be a Show and Tell is equally pertinent to this specific thread. Damned if you do and damned if you don't, apparently.

 

[Laila619]

I feel like we're going through the whole Surfgirl thing again. Deja vu?

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/imitation.103965/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/imitation.103965/[/URL]

 

[maccers]

I've been keeping tabs on this thread and it has, of course, lead me to more questions!

When someone wants to copy a ring, should they contact the owner of the ring or the jeweller that made it? Who is the 'designer' of the ring?

 

[Circe]

I feel like we're going through the whole Surfgirl thing again. Deja vu?

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/imitation.103965/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/imitation.103965/[/URL]

Some similar attitudes may be coming up, but ... the jeweler who designed that ring is long dead, and past caring about profit. The talented jewelers who designed the contemporary pieces, though? They deserve better than to be ripped off.

 

[pinkjewel]

Finding a random ring through a Google images search and having NO idea where it came from, and not being able to find out anything else about it (BTDT!) is pretty different from seeing a ring on a forum where the owner's name is on the left side of the screen There are threads paging a specific poster all the time, and often when one is started others who do have offline access to that person will point them to it, and I've never gone to the mods but perhaps they might be willing to pass on the occasional message? Of course none of that is a guarantee that the poster will see it and respond, but if it's a pretty recent ring and a pretty regular poster your odds of getting in touch are pretty good!

Is getting in touch with the original owner necessary? No. Is it courteous? Yes. Does it help avoid potentially hurt feelings? Yes.
Is it worth it? Depends, I guess.
And as pinkjewel brought up sometimes it's even not the original customer's call, it's the designer's.


Matata - no, it's not a moot point, as evidenced by what's been said right here on this thread. You may feel that way but others don't. As for the bit about ego stroking - would you have preferred that I concoct a "hypothetical example"? The comparison was a natural and fluid illustration of how I feel about this specific issue and was therefore pertinent to this specific thread, and the reason there won't be a Show and Tell is equally pertinent to this specific thread. Damned if you do and damned if you don't, apparently.

Awww... Yssie- we all know you were not relaying your story for "ego stroking" purposes- that's just ridiculous!! It was very pertinent to the conversation going on. Don't let one poster's thoughtless comment get to you.

 

[Laila619]

I've been keeping tabs on this thread and it has, of course, lead me to more questions!

When someone wants to copy a ring, should they contact the owner of the ring or the jeweller that made it? Who is the 'designer' of the ring?

Good point. I would think the would-be "copier" should probably be asking the jeweler who made it for permission, right? And not the owner, since the owner didn't actually make the piece. It makes no sense to me when posters say if they were just given a heads up or were asked, they'd be fine with the copying. I thought this was about protecting a jeweler's design?

 

[Ella]

Hello ladies and gentlemen,

A few points to clarify from the PS Mod:

1. We do not allow discussion of other forums to prevent exactly the type of cross-forum fighting that is occurring. Please keep mentions/names of other forums off the thread to comply with this policy and to try and prevent fights.

2. Every forum has a focus and for a long time this forum's focus has been diamonds. Only recently have Pearls and Man-Made Diamonds been allowed in the appropriate forums. In the past pearl vendors would spam the forum, which is also a problem we have had with many crystal/simulant diamond manufacturers which to my knowledge is the reason for the ban although that was before my time on pricescope.

3. For ladies and gentlemen reading this from other forums, we do not ban people for mentioning the name of other forums as an innocent mistake nor do we ban people for innocently mentioning simulants or other violations of our policies. We rarely ban individuals and then only for breaking our rules on purpose multiple times. The site administrator changed a number of years ago and we operate differently. We hope others will join us and talk about the mutual love for jewelry.


We are not opposed to adding a forum for simulants and have discussed doing so in the future. With any change the forum admin takes his time to think and make sure it is the right decision for the forum. The members will be the first to know should we decide to make these changes.

 

[mrs jam]

Goodness, this thread made for an engrossing bathroom read. I lost track of time, and my legs fell asleep.

 

[crown1]

I think the issue of how to determine whether something is original and whether you should make the effort to identify and contact the owner/creator when you've found an unidentified image on the internet is a moot point. As far as images found here being copied, it seems like there's no good solution--some people will not be upset and some will be upset; some asking permission to copy or use an inspired design will back off if the original owner says "no" and some will proceed without the original owner's blessing. So we seem to have agreed that not posting pictures is the best way to ensure that pieces won't get copied from here. I'm hoping that those who decide not to post pictures will also keep to themselves the fact that they have projects in the works. It would appear petty and selfish to expect to bask in the excitement of members here over something that won't be seen. And I must confess that it would irk me to see someone's ego fed by PSers lamenting the fact that they won't be privy to a photo.

If one good thing comes of this discussion, I hope it's a clearing of the air between PSers & BTD and a resolution reached that we can respect our differences and enjoy our similarities. I hope that Ella or Andrey can clarify here for BTDers the reason why sims are not part of this board. BTDers seem to think it's for negative reasons and it's better to get a clarification from the owners of PS than having members give their interpretation.

Excellent post. No matter what any of us think I doubt there is a really "one of a kind" ring out there. I have many times thought there surely could not be others with certain names and a google search produces many. The world is full of people and it is hard to tell what has been created. I understand the feelings some are having but I feel they may be indulging themselves a little too much. It is not worth the hard feelings and harsh words imo. Yes, you have a right to be hurt but the expression makes you look small. I think at least two others made a commotion about their rings and not all here were sympathetic. If you don't wish to share it is probably wise to keep things to yourself.

 

[Matata]

Ella, thank you very much for your post. I hope it puts to rest mistaken assumptions about the motive behind the decision.

Circe -- Wink and other vendors here also sell and set sims. Jonathan has stated on the sims board that he is willing to produce sim AVCs if he can get the quality to his standards. I think he and the other vendors would benefit if sims were to become a subforum of this board. People who want diamonds will still buy diamonds and I doubt that diamond-only vendors here would suffer if sims become permitted here. And for the record, I voted against including a sims subforum here last time the subject came up because of the bad blood between the two boards. It looks like we have all taken steps to end the bickering.

 

[redwood66]

I also think it would be wonderful to have a sim subforum as I have contacted a couple of very popular vendors here who have absolutely no problem working with a sim for their designs.

 

[Matata]

MatataAs for the bit about ego stroking - would you have preferred that I concoct a "hypothetical example"? The comparison was a natural and fluid illustration of how I feel about this specific issue and was therefore pertinent to this specific thread, and the reason there won't be a Show and Tell is equally pertinent to this specific thread. Damned if you do and damned if you don't, apparently.

I knew as soon as I hit send I knew that you would take it personally. I neglected to put the "this is not directed at you personally Yssie" disclaimer on it. You can throw rocks at me, preferably blingy ones, at the Vegas GTG.

 

[aljdewey]

Speaking for me personally, the whole idea that anyone should have to ask anyone else to be inspired by their jewelry is outlandish. None of us is that big a celebrity (even in our own minds) that any of us should expect deference from random strangers or expect them to adopt what some (but not all) deem acceptable courtesies.

None of us should legislate or dictate behavior of others; all we can do is behave ourselves in a way that is consistent with our own personal beliefs. It's sad to me that some feel a license to belittle others who may not consider it a common courtesy or even a necessity to ask.

I looked last night at the ring that was supposedly inspired by Zahra's, and I have to say that if I hadn't known from this thread that it was inspired by Zahra's ring, I wouldn't have known it otherwise. While it does share some elements (pink diamond halo, marquise stones, metal), there is enough aesthetically different about it that I wouldn't consider it a copy.

I'm floored that anyone would even think about telling someone else what vendors they do and don't approve of to make their inspired-by pieces.....I have very strong words on what I think about that, and they're probably best kept to myself to avoid being frank to an uncharitable point. I guess this just goes to show that what we all consider 'common courtesies' varies greatly. Let me tell you, there are several vendors whose work I think is just meh, but I would personally consider it gravely lacking in courtesy to express that unless someone flat out asked "I'm using this guy - do you think he can do a good job with this type of design?"

It's hysterical to me that people actually expect others to determine which of the posters couldn't care less about copies and which will be offended. If you are in the offended camp, why not take it upon yourself to announce that in your posts instead of expecting people to seek you out? How hard would it be when you post all your photos and tell the story of your jewelry's creation to add "hey, I know not everyone feels this way, but I'd really appreciate the courtesy of being reached out to if you think you may use my piece for inspiration. I know you don't have to, but I'd really appreciate it." A little humility goes a loooooooooooooong way toward getting some of those common courtesies.

In fact, I'm happy to start first. Anyone reading should assume that I will be completely flattered if you like any piece I post well enough to want to use it as inspiration, and I will try my best to remember to affix this sentiment to any other post I make that includes photos.

 

[TravelingGal]

Feelings are feelings, and jewelry can be emotional - so it is what it is. How I feel isn't how the next person may feel, and that doesn't make me any more right or them wrong. But if I were to voice my OPINION...

Can I comment on this whole "this, that, here, there" thing as a whole? Because honestly, this is all teetering on the absurd to me (this thread, and "that" one...yes, I too, went and took a look finally).

Two "frivolous" forums taking themselves entirely too seriously, in my book. It's jewelry, for god's sake. At the end of the day, it's an ADORNMENT.

ETA, I should have just waited until Alj posted.

 

[Matata]

Well somebody's got to do it and I haven't done it in a long time so........................................................................

pie anyone? Alj -- I'm sorry but I can't remember your favorite pie.

 

[aljdewey]

Matata, you have a very good memory.

While lemon pie has always been the only approved pie of choice, I have to guiltily confess that I've broadened my horizons and love several pies.

In fact, a few summers ago, I was introduced to the most luscious strawberry cream pie I've ever had in my life. Glorious whipped cream on top of juicy strawberries which blanketed a yummy graham crust.

In fact, I contemplated making one of my own, but then I worried that the creator might get uppity that I was inspired by his pie, so I deferred........

HAHAHAH - NOT. I made the damn pie, and it was GOOD. One of my new favorites! I'm sure it's not going to be mistaken for one of his masterpieces anytime soon, but MAN it was good just the same.

 

[TravelingGal]

Matata, you have a very good memory.

While lemon pie has always been the only approved pie of choice, I have to guiltily confess that I've broadened my horizons and love several pies.

In fact, a few summers ago, I was introduced to the most luscious strawberry cream pie I've ever had in my life. Glorious whipped cream on top of juicy strawberries which blanketed a yummy graham crust.

In fact, I contemplated making one of my own, but then I worried that the creator might get uppity that I was inspired by his pie, so I deferred........

HAHAHAH - NOT. I made the damn pie, and it was GOOD. One of my new favorites! I'm sure it's not going to be mistaken for one of his masterpieces anytime soon, but MAN it was good just the same.

I saw your bloody pie, and while it may have tasted good to you, but it was a hot mess. Your crust edges were lumpy and not at all in the proportion it should have been to the body of the pie.

And your filling? I really don't know who you are fooling, but making a pie with FROZEN strawberries is NOT the same as using fresh.

Sorry.

 

[Matata]

Oh I'm so happy I got it right! My favorite strawberry pie is uncooked. I slice up the berries and then cover them with a glaze made from a bit of sugar and mashed berries cooked until it's thick enough to ooze into all the nooks & crannies of the berries nested in the graham cracker crust. Now, if I top that pie with the strawberry whipped cream from your pie, it would be excruciatingly blissful.

 

[TravelingGal]

P.S., I sure hope you didn't blog and post photos about that mess of a pie on the net. You have no right to be proud of such a pie, whether it tastes good to you or not.

 

[Matata]

I forgot to apologize in advance to those who like other types of berries.

 

[aljdewey]

I saw your bloody pie, and while it may have tasted good to you, but it was a hot mess. Your crust edges were lumpy and not at all in the proportion it should have been to the body of the pie.

And your filling? I really don't know who you are fooling, but making a pie with FROZEN strawberries is NOT the same as using fresh.

Sorry.

Ummmmmmmmmmmm - I added a photo above, and you can see it was AMAZING. Don't be a hater just because I didn't send you a slice.

Further, I'll have you know that the stupid original baker merely BUYS the strawberries (which are probably several days old by the time they get to him). I hiked my ass to the strawberry patch and personally HAND-PICKED all those strawberries. In fact, that's partially what contributed to the pie inspiration to begin with....I got a little carried away and picked 45 lbs of strawberries last summer and then had a "holy cow, what I am gonna do with all of these" moment when I got home. Voila - pie inspiration!

I will confess, though ....... I did cheat a bit and buy the box of pre-crushed graham crackers. Wielding a rolling pin for that just isn't my idea of time well spent.

 

[cygnet]

Hi Pricescope.

I made you a pie.