Cushion Cut Stats - What do you think?

[GBlu05]

What do you think of a cushion with these characteristics:

AGS Labs
1) Cushion Modified Brilliant
L/W Ratio 1.17
Polish: Ideal
Symmetry VG
Color: G
Clarity: VS1
CWT: 2.003
FL: Neg
Culet: Pointed
Table: 57.8%
Depth: 60.6%

AGS Labs
2) Cushion Modified Brilliant
L/W Ratio 1.13
Polish: IDeal
Symmetry Ex
Color: G
Clarity: VS1
CWT: 1.801
FL: Neg
Culet: Pointed
Table: 57.5%
Depth: 67.6%

I know its hard to tell by just the number but does anyone have any immediate thoughts or impressions based on the numbers alone? I am in the process of selecting a stone and would like the vendor Im working with to call in a few so that I can observe them personally.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 2/12/2010 8:36:49 PM
Author:GBlu05
What do you think of a cushion with these characteristics:

AGS Labs
1) Cushion Modified Brilliant
L/W Ratio 1.17
Polish: Ideal
Symmetry VG
Color: G
Clarity: VS1
CWT: 2.003
FL: Neg
Culet: Pointed
Table: 57.8%
Depth: 60.6%

AGS Labs
2) Cushion Modified Brilliant
L/W Ratio 1.13
Polish: IDeal
Symmetry Ex
Color: G
Clarity: VS1
CWT: 1.801
FL: Neg
Culet: Pointed
Table: 57.5%
Depth: 67.6%

I know its hard to tell by just the number but does anyone have any immediate thoughts or impressions based on the numbers alone? I am in the process of selecting a stone and would like the vendor Im working with to call in a few so that I can observe them personally.

Both are quite rectangular, 60% depth too shallow. You have links to the actual diamonds and images, otherwise cannot tell much of anything.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Pictures please.

 

[Lorelei]

H gblue and welcome!

In order to help you we need;

-An ASET image

-Clear and detailed photos of the diamonds

-A Sarin report so we can get the crown height for each

If you could get the above then we can go from there. Are these diamonds for sale online or have you seen them?

 

[CharmyPoo]

That stone is still available! You better reserve it before I am tempted to buy it too and trade in my AV.

Just kidding.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 2/13/2010 6:21:20 AM
Author: Lorelei
H gblue and welcome!

In order to help you we need;

-An ASET image

-Clear and detailed photos of the diamonds

-A Sarin report so we can get the crown height for each

If you could get the above then we can go from there. Are these diamonds for sale online or have you seen them?

Hi Lorelei,

Recently I have reflected on the persistant PS advice about requesting a sarin report for cushions to get crown height. I can''t think of any situation where just having a crown height or even the incomplete sarin helium reports provided by some PS vendors would tell us even close to enough to make a definitive decision about the optics of a cushion.

I think we as a community should stop telling customers to request a sarin report for cushions, it is expensive and time consuming for the vendors and does not provide enough extra information to help us guide the consumer. There are very few experts if any who could draw definitive conclusions even from full sarin(helium) data and most that could would import the .srn scan directly into a program like Diamcalc and generate images from it. These generated images are still inferior to the actual images due to the standard error of the measurements made by the machine.

In addition the few experts who could interpret the full sarin data are usually vendors and will a) not comment on another vendors stones or b) would not want to divulge the very precise proportions that they look for in their diamond selection.

I rarely see from sarin reports star%, lgf%, ugf% or sometimes even Crown Angle on abbreviated sarin reports, and unless you have everything and the .srn file and are going to generate the stone in Diamcalc I think requesting it tells us nothing. If the crown height is 15% or 20% or 12% for that matter I still can''t draw any definitive conclusion and it still leads me back to optical image tests like an ASET or video.

CCl

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/13/2010 9:59:49 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 2/13/2010 6:21:20 AM
Author: Lorelei
H gblue and welcome!

In order to help you we need;

-An ASET image

-Clear and detailed photos of the diamonds

-A Sarin report so we can get the crown height for each

If you could get the above then we can go from there. Are these diamonds for sale online or have you seen them?

Hi Lorelei,

Recently I have reflected on the persistant PS advice about requesting a sarin report for cushions to get crown height. I can't think of any situation where just having a crown height or even the incomplete sarin helium reports provided by some PS vendors would tell us even close to enough to make a definitive decision about the optics of a cushion.

I think we as a community should stop telling customers to request a sarin report for cushions, it is expensive and time consuming for the vendors and does not provide enough extra information to help us guide the consumer. There are very few experts if any who could draw definitive conclusions even from full sarin(helium) data and most that could would import the .srn scan directly into a program like Diamcalc and generate images from it. These generated images are still inferior to the actual images due to the standard error of the measurements made by the machine.

In addition the few experts who could interpret the full sarin data are usually vendors and will a) not comment on another vendors stones or b) would not want to divulge the very precise proportions that they look for in their diamond selection.

I rarely see from sarin reports star%, lgf%, ugf% or sometimes even Crown Angle on abbreviated sarin reports, and unless you have everything and the .srn file and are going to generate the stone in Diamcalc I think requesting it tells us nothing. If the crown height is 15% or 20% or 12% for that matter I still can't draw any definitive conclusion and it still leads me back to optical image tests like an ASET or video.

CCl

Hi CCL

The crown height is useful for cushions I think and I personally believe if that info is available then it plays a useful part in the overall evaluation of each cushion and should be included where possible. I would also prefer to have that info if available and will continue to request it. Its not as informative as images of course but if this info is available then I think it has some value and is worth knowing. For the most part it isn't an issue as some cushion vendors provide this value anyway.

I agree the rest of the info provided on a Sarin report has very little use for the layperson and even some experts quite possibly!

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 2/13/2010 10:05:27 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 2/13/2010 9:59:49 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 2/13/2010 6:21:20 AM
Author: Lorelei
H gblue and welcome!

In order to help you we need;

-An ASET image

-Clear and detailed photos of the diamonds

-A Sarin report so we can get the crown height for each

If you could get the above then we can go from there. Are these diamonds for sale online or have you seen them?

Hi Lorelei,

Recently I have reflected on the persistant PS advice about requesting a sarin report for cushions to get crown height. I can''t think of any situation where just having a crown height or even the incomplete sarin helium reports provided by some PS vendors would tell us even close to enough to make a definitive decision about the optics of a cushion.

I think we as a community should stop telling customers to request a sarin report for cushions, it is expensive and time consuming for the vendors and does not provide enough extra information to help us guide the consumer. There are very few experts if any who could draw definitive conclusions even from full sarin(helium) data and most that could would import the .srn scan directly into a program like Diamcalc and generate images from it. These generated images are still inferior to the actual images due to the standard error of the measurements made by the machine.

In addition the few experts who could interpret the full sarin data are usually vendors and will a) not comment on another vendors stones or b) would not want to divulge the very precise proportions that they look for in their diamond selection.

I rarely see from sarin reports star%, lgf%, ugf% or sometimes even Crown Angle on abbreviated sarin reports, and unless you have everything and the .srn file and are going to generate the stone in Diamcalc I think requesting it tells us nothing. If the crown height is 15% or 20% or 12% for that matter I still can''t draw any definitive conclusion and it still leads me back to optical image tests like an ASET or video.

CCl

Hi CCL

The crown height is useful for cushions I think and I personally believe if that info is available then it plays a useful part in the overall evaluation of each cushion and should be included where possible. Its not as informative as images of course but if this info is available then I think it has some value and is worth knowing.

What crown height are you looking for? Please link me to threads where it added any additional information by itself beyond the ASET image.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/13/2010 10:13:13 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 2/13/2010 10:05:27 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 2/13/2010 9:59:49 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 2/13/2010 6:21:20 AM
Author: Lorelei
H gblue and welcome!

In order to help you we need;

-An ASET image

-Clear and detailed photos of the diamonds

-A Sarin report so we can get the crown height for each

If you could get the above then we can go from there. Are these diamonds for sale online or have you seen them?

Hi Lorelei,

Recently I have reflected on the persistant PS advice about requesting a sarin report for cushions to get crown height. I can't think of any situation where just having a crown height or even the incomplete sarin helium reports provided by some PS vendors would tell us even close to enough to make a definitive decision about the optics of a cushion.

I think we as a community should stop telling customers to request a sarin report for cushions, it is expensive and time consuming for the vendors and does not provide enough extra information to help us guide the consumer. There are very few experts if any who could draw definitive conclusions even from full sarin(helium) data and most that could would import the .srn scan directly into a program like Diamcalc and generate images from it. These generated images are still inferior to the actual images due to the standard error of the measurements made by the machine.

In addition the few experts who could interpret the full sarin data are usually vendors and will a) not comment on another vendors stones or b) would not want to divulge the very precise proportions that they look for in their diamond selection.

I rarely see from sarin reports star%, lgf%, ugf% or sometimes even Crown Angle on abbreviated sarin reports, and unless you have everything and the .srn file and are going to generate the stone in Diamcalc I think requesting it tells us nothing. If the crown height is 15% or 20% or 12% for that matter I still can't draw any definitive conclusion and it still leads me back to optical image tests like an ASET or video.

CCl

Hi CCL

The crown height is useful for cushions I think and I personally believe if that info is available then it plays a useful part in the overall evaluation of each cushion and should be included where possible. Its not as informative as images of course but if this info is available then I think it has some value and is worth knowing.

What crown height are you looking for? Please link me to threads where it added any additional information by itself beyond the ASET image.

I am not saying it added useful info by itself but along with the overall evaluation of each cushion ( images/ videos/photographs/vendor opinion) it is - in my opinion - helpful to know. I would believe many of the vendors selling cushions cut for optical performance would feel the same way as the CH is often provided. I am not saying the CH in itself is any indication of superior optics/beauty/fire etc but as part of the overall picture it is worth knowing.

CCL, if you want to discuss this further I will start a new thread.

Here it is - https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/crown-height-in-cushions-a-discussion.136293/

 

[CharmyPoo]

Date: 2/13/2010 7:28:45 AM
Author: CharmyPoo
That stone is still available! You better reserve it before I am tempted to buy it too and trade in my AV.

Just kidding.

Ignore this post - I replied to the wrong thread.

 

[GBlu05]

Does AGS have a shape classification of Cushion Brilliant or are all their cushions listed as cushion modified brilliants? I know GIA has both classifications but I haven''t seen any cushion brilliant classifications on any of the AGS certs that I have seen.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 2/13/2010 11:47:08 AM
Author: GBlu05
Does AGS have a shape classification of Cushion Brilliant or are all their cushions listed as cushion modified brilliants? I know GIA has both classifications but I haven''t seen any cushion brilliant classifications on any of the AGS certs that I have seen.

AGS naming of cushions is meaningless. Its best to ignore whether AGS calls it a cushion modified brilliant, cushion brilliant or old mine brilliant and look at the inclusion plot of the pavillion.
GIA you can at least know based on the name they give the stone a little more information as they have consistent criteria for determining the names.

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/13/2010 12:25:00 PM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 2/13/2010 11:47:08 AM
Author: GBlu05
Does AGS have a shape classification of Cushion Brilliant or are all their cushions listed as cushion modified brilliants? I know GIA has both classifications but I haven''t seen any cushion brilliant classifications on any of the AGS certs that I have seen.

AGS naming of cushions is meaningless. Its best to ignore whether AGS calls it a cushion modified brilliant, cushion brilliant or old mine brilliant and look at the inclusion plot of the pavillion.
GIA you can at least know based on the name they give the stone a little more information as they have consistent criteria for determining the names.

It would be nice if it would be consistent..., maybe now after re-organizing their cushion ID-mess things will be more consistent...

 

[GBlu05]

Does anyone think its possible to find a nice quality stone around 15-17K that has the following specs:

Cushion Brilliant (AGS or GIA cert)
• Preferably with 8 pavilion facets
Ctw: 1.8-2.2
Color: G –
Clarity: VVs2 – VS1
Table: 54-59
Depth: 61-67
Polish: Ex/VG
Sym: Ex/VG
L/W Ratio: 1.1-1.15 – I would like it to be more square-ish than rectangular-ish
FL: None - Negl
Culet: None or Small-Medium – I’d like to stay away from the “open hole in the bottom look”

 

[CharmyPoo]

Yes - very doable. Your budget is realistic for what you are looking for.

1.1 ratio will look rectangular. I find once you start going beyond 1.04 .. it will look rectangular.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/13/2010 5:13:29 PM
Author: GBlu05
Does anyone think its possible to find a nice quality stone around 15-17K that has the following specs:

Cushion Brilliant (AGS or GIA cert)
• Preferably with 8 pavilion facets
Ctw: 1.8-2.2
Color: G –
Clarity: VVs2 – VS1
Table: 54-59
Depth: 61-67
Polish: Ex/VG
Sym: Ex/VG
L/W Ratio: 1.1-1.15 – I would like it to be more square-ish than rectangular-ish
FL: None - Negl
Culet: None or Small-Medium – I’d like to stay away from the “open hole in the bottom look”

This one is 1k over budget but I thought I would show you anyway,

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6723/

 

[GBlu05]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Regarding the GOG cushion I''ve seen this one previously but had a few reservation/questions about it. Let me know if you think these are warranted or not; 1) looking at the Diamxray there seems to be more pink and white just to left of the table 2) What do you think about the nearly 69% depth percentage?

 

[CharmyPoo]

I am a huge AVC fan but that one is not of my favorites.

 

[GBlu05]

Another question for you all: (Despite it being a lazy cold Saturday I''ve been learning a lot today) I''ve heard many people on here say that any vendor should be able to provide you with an ASET image, idealscope and possibly a sarin report. My question is do all vendors already have at least 2 of the reports (ASET & idealscope) or have access to the equipment to create/pull them them easily and cheaply?

I''ve heard the sarin report is fairly costly for the vendor and not all that informative for the lay person. I''m asking because I''m trying to discern how strenous my requests would be for most vendors (outside of Mark T, GOG, & WF) especially if I am able to narrow my search to 3-4 stones that I would want a vendor to call in.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 2/13/2010 6:11:00 PM
Author: CharmyPoo
I am a huge AVC fan but that one is not of my favorites.

That one is not an AVC.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Date: 2/13/2010 6:29:10 PM
Author: Rhino

That one is not an AVC.

Thanks Jon!! That explains a lot

More the reason why the AVCs are in a class of their own.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Would you consider an H SI1? You can confirm with GOG if it is eye clean.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6905/

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/13/2010 5:56:27 PM
Author: GBlu05
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Regarding the GOG cushion I''ve seen this one previously but had a few reservation/questions about it. Let me know if you think these are warranted or not; 1) looking at the Diamxray there seems to be more pink and white just to left of the table 2) What do you think about the nearly 69% depth percentage?

Its a very nice cushion, as previously explained it is NOT an AVC but it is still a well cut cushion which should have great optics. The depth IMO is fine, more important to me is the overall performance and beauty of the stone, the image is showing a slight amount of leakage but it is minimal. It fits most of the criteria on your list, you could of course consider lower colour and clarity to broaden the options but really it would be good to have a chat with Jon about this diamond, he will be the best person to advise you.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 2/13/2010 5:56:27 PM
Author: GBlu05
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Regarding the GOG cushion I've seen this one previously but had a few reservation/questions about it. Let me know if you think these are warranted or not; 1) looking at the Diamxray there seems to be more pink and white just to left of the table 2) What do you think about the nearly 69% depth percentage?

Well you have to decide if you are willing to accept that big ole bowtie in the middle of the stone (the blue areas in the ASET under the table), 69% depth will faceup smaller than many other cushions.
IMO overpriced for what it is, I think you should contact ERD and see what they can find with your specs, expecially if you are considering Antique 8 main cushions that don't meet the standard of GOG's AVC line.
Another option ask Jon how long it would take to get an AVC with your preferred specs.

 

[GBlu05]

I may take a look at the AVC they look great but I tend to think they are a bit overpriced (I get it though ..GOG is creating a brand and are asking consumers to pay a premium for the brand promise around the quality, aesthetics, and service component of their business...so I''m not begrudging them anything) I''d rather find a cushion that has similar aesthetics without paying as much....only time will tell if I''m successful.

My question for you all is would you be suspicious or have reservations about a 2.02 G VS1 cushion brilliant that has a girdle of VTK -XTK? I''m thinking that the excessive thickness around the girdle was done to bump the carat weight above 2.0 which I''m assuming will raise the price 5% or more? Am I thinking about this correctly?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/14/2010 12:38:04 PM
Author: GBlu05
I may take a look at the AVC they look great but I tend to think they are a bit overpriced (I get it though ..GOG is creating a brand and are asking consumers to pay a premium for the brand promise around the quality, aesthetics, and service component of their business...so I'm not begrudging them anything) I'd rather find a cushion that has similar aesthetics without paying as much....only time will tell if I'm successful.

My question for you all is would you be suspicious or have reservations about a 2.02 G VS1 cushion brilliant that has a girdle of VTK -XTK? I'm thinking that the excessive thickness around the girdle was done to bump the carat weight above 2.0 which I'm assuming will raise the price 5% or more? Am I thinking about this correctly?

It would be best to get an expert to look at the girdle, it could be fine or it the extra thickness could be extensive, what other info do you have on this diamond? Yes there are price jumps at " magic" weights such as 2 carats and so on and you can tend to find cutters will do their utmost to hit these ranges if at all possible.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Date: 2/14/2010 12:38:04 PM
Author: GBlu05
I may take a look at the AVC they look great but I tend to think they are a bit overpriced (I get it though ..GOG is creating a brand and are asking consumers to pay a premium for the brand promise around the quality, aesthetics, and service component of their business...so I''m not begrudging them anything) I''d rather find a cushion that has similar aesthetics without paying as much....only time will tell if I''m successful.

It is my personal opinion that AVCs are designed for customers who strive for cut performance. The same group of customers that would want an AGS0 or superiour H&A round. In rounds, the AGS0 commend a price premium which is really no different than why there is a premium for GOG AVCs. I don''t think GOG is asking consumers to pay a premium for just a brand promise - it is more expensive because of the costs required to produce diamonds to these standards.

All in all - it sounds like you are very price consious and don''t place as much of a premium on cut standards - you want the best bang for your buck (ie. no excessive weight around girdle, average performance, good color/clarity balance). Perhaps you can look for a second hand antique diamond through a private seller - you will save the most money there and not have to worry about the "service component" premium that you may have to pay. If you don''t want to go the private seller route, check out vendors like Erica Grace or Old World Diamonds - prices are usually cheaper for old stones.

 

[GBlu05]

Given my previously stated budget, I dont think I''m price consicous. I would describe myself as value concsious. I think in any situation when there''s a significant knowledge defecit between buyer and seller it makes sense to ask a lot of questions in order to lessen the gap. My approach would not be any different than if I were building a house or havng my car fixed ( two areas I dont know a lot about) and wanted to ask a lot of questions to keep the contractor/mechanic somewhat honest. I simply want to get as much value (and piece of mind) as a I can get and not get ''taken for a ride". All of that being said I''m just trying to learn so I appreciate your comments about the alternative channels for finding an antique stone.

Lastly I would posit that AVC is a brand and with that comes a (brand) promise. The whole reason for creating a brand is so that consumers have consistent expectations and are willing pay a premium. So even if it costs more to produce a AVC they are likely charging a premium for it. How much of a premium...I dont know....but why else would they have created an AVC brand if they didnt want to derive some equity out of it?

 

[CharmyPoo]

You are correct that value is perhaps a better word. However, value is defined by the individual - my definition of value for a cushion diamond differs from your definition of value. Good luck with your search.