Cushions: What to avoid

[luckynumber]

Hi everyone,

I am hunting for a 1.5 ct cushion, not buying online (fiance wont buy sight unseen otherwise I would have headed straight to GOG).

Can anyone advise my on what to avoid, I know you can''t work on the numbers like you can for a round, but are there any absolute no-nos?

I''ve ordered an ASETscope and plan to wield it.

I''m looking for chunky facets, small culet, 8 main pavilion if possible ie more vintage look. Should I avoid ''modified brilliant'' completely if that''s the look I''m going for?

Is there there a cut-off for the depth or table, after which I should go

? What about crown angles?

Thanks for all your help!

I don''t think this will be an easy find, please furnish me with all your wisdom!

CCL and lorelei, please jump in anytime

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Date: 2/8/2010 10:14:32 AM
Author:luckynumber
Hi everyone,

I am hunting for a 1.5 ct cushion, not buying online (fiance wont buy sight unseen otherwise I would have headed straight to GOG).

Can anyone advise my on what to avoid, I know you can''t work on the numbers like you can for a round, but are there any absolute no-nos?

I''ve ordered an ASETscope and plan to wield it.

I''m looking for chunky facets, small culet, 8 main pavilion if possible ie more vintage look. Should I avoid ''modified brilliant'' completely if that''s the look I''m going for?

Is there there a cut-off for the depth or table, after which I should go

? What about crown angles?

Thanks for all your help!

I don''t think this will be an easy find, please furnish me with all your wisdom!

CCL and lorelei, please jump in anytime

Lucky, I might be wrong about this, but I believe GOG won''t LET you buy sight-unseen. I think Jonathan would insist on shipping the diamond to you, and having you send it back within x number of days if it doesn''t meet your and/or your FI''s expectations. Just something to consider . . . I know if I was shopping for a cushion, I''d be very likely to go with GOG too!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/8/2010 10:14:32 AM
Author:luckynumber
Hi everyone,

I am hunting for a 1.5 ct cushion, not buying online (fiance wont buy sight unseen otherwise I would have headed straight to GOG).

Can anyone advise my on what to avoid, I know you can't work on the numbers like you can for a round, but are there any absolute no-nos?

I've ordered an ASETscope and plan to wield it.

I'm looking for chunky facets, small culet, 8 main pavilion if possible ie more vintage look. Should I avoid 'modified brilliant' completely if that's the look I'm going for?

Is there there a cut-off for the depth or table, after which I should go

? What about crown angles?

Thanks for all your help!

I don't think this will be an easy find, please furnish me with all your wisdom!

CCL and lorelei, please jump in anytime

LOL! Hi lucky, lets see what we can do to help! This might be a lengthy post so bear with me....

A different approach will be needed as you plan to buy from a store - which is absolutely fine - but we might have to adjust our thinking and advice in order to best help you. Jon would probably ship a diamond to you on approval or to an appraiser in your area, so that is definitely an option if you ask him, see what he can arrange. He is closed today but will be open tomorrow so you could give him a call, if you really want one of his cushions then if you could arrange something that your fiance is also comfortable with then that would be best so you can get the exact cushion you want. Talk to Jon and see what he says, is it possible you could visit GOG?

Ok, on with plan A if you want to shop in person, it sounds as if you know what you want, I would say though don't necessarily dismiss a 4 main cushion if you love it. 8 mains don't guarantee superior optics and beauty so keep an open mind, if you find a cushion you love than happens to have 4 mains then thats ok.

Depth and table; there are various proportion configurations that can result in a beautiful cushion but really all the depth and table give you is a chalk outline of the stone. This tells you nothing about the beauty, faceting, optics etc of the stone. Although you want to avoid too much depth and too large a table, bear in mind fancy shapes can hold weight in other ways such as in the pavilion, crown, girdle etc and these can have an influence on face up size as well as the depth. Angles - aren't as useful in cushions as with round diamonds and the detailed numbers such as those given on a Sarin report are really meaningless to most layman unless you know EXACTLY what effect these measurements are having on the beauty, appearance and optics of the diamond - however an important measurement is the crown height which is often featured on a Sarin or Helium scan. Generally 10% and above is what to look for, this can vary though as cushions are unpredictable and individual. As an example, a cushion with a larger table can benefit if the crown height is higher but there are no hard and fast rules.

Girdles, you tend to see more variation in fancy shapes than with rounds but see if you can get an expert to help you with girdles that state very thin - these aren't always a durability issue if the very thin part only measures in the microns and or is placed in a non vulnerable area but it is always best to have an expert check. Conversely with very thick/ extremely thick -not always an issue if the very thick parts are carefully placed for example in the corners of the stone, but if the girdle is overall very thick that can be undesirable - again an expert can advise you should you come across the above.

Basically I would look for a cushion with a smaller table percentage than the depth but this is only a guideline and if shopping in person, read up and practise using your ASET scope as much as possible so you know what to look for. Also ask if you can view a stone you particularly like away from any bright store lights to see how it behaves in plain daylight or alternatively look at the stone under a desk. The diamond will lose some power inevitably, but if it visibly shrinks/ looks smaller or darkens much then that can indicate it will often need strong lighting to make it come alive.

I would imagine you have already come across Jon's videos but I will post them again for you so you have them conveniently located and some of my other favourite cushion threads.

http://www.vimeo.com/7579666 Buyers Guide

http://www.vimeo.com/7579666 4 pavilion mains versus 8 mains

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/a-cushion-by-any-other-name.36001/ A Cushion by Any Other Name

 

[luckynumber]

thanks lorelei!

I''m in the UK, so even if GOG shipped a stone here, it would not be that cost effective once the import duties and VAT kick in, plus I''d have to find someone to do the setting here which can be a pain if you don''t buy the stone from them.

I found a potential with a depth of 70% and a table of 68%. Both seemed too large to me, but under shop lighting, EVERYTHING is sparkly. Apart from the dud crushed ice diamonds

I can''t seem to see much difference between a lot of them.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/8/2010 10:55:30 AM
Author: luckynumber
thanks lorelei!

I'm in the UK, so even if GOG shipped a stone here, it would not be that cost effective once the import duties and VAT kick in, plus I'd have to find someone to do the setting here which can be a pain if you don't buy the stone from them.

I found a potential with a depth of 70% and a table of 68%. Both seemed too large to me, but under shop lighting, EVERYTHING is sparkly. Apart from the dud crushed ice diamonds

I can't seem to see much difference between a lot of them.

That puts a different slant on things....Can you get to London? If so, contact Dr Indira Marchant at;

www.bestdiamonds.co.uk She is located in the Royal Exchange and sees clients by appointment. She reads here so is probably familiar with the type of cushion you want or you could email her some links and details. She has various contacts in Antwerp so might be able to get some cushions in to show you that are suitable. She has a superb eye for fancy shapes and she is a super lady so you could give her a call or email her and 'pick her brains' so to speak!

Its hard to say with the cushion you have found, normally I would look for more variance between depth and table but it might be ok, if you have your ASET view it carefully through that and see if you can look at the stone away from any store lights to see how it looks, this gives you a much better idea. I would take your time though and look at as many as possible, the more you look the more you learn and you quickly develop an eye for what appeals to you.

 

[oldminer]

I won''t go as far as to say "avoid", but you should examine a few of these to understand that most, or many, are cut with a great deal of retained weight in their depth and shpow rather small in visual size. You are paying for weight, and it should be somewhat adjusted for smallish appearance, but many times there is no proper adjustment for visual size unless you know better. Try to find one which seems reasonable in visual size for the weight. These can be effectively cut, but many, or most, are just not cut efficiently on behalf of consumers. The extra retained weight tends to favor the cutter''s needs. GOG has done a very nice job with his new cushions, so they do deserve a look.

 

[luckynumber]

thanks again lorelei, you''re a gem!

i''ll come back with some stats and ASET images if I can to get your opinions...

 

[luckynumber]

thanks oldminer

i realise that the face up size will be smaller than for the equivalent weight round, but of course i would want to maximise the face up size as much as possible, without compromising too much on the optics.

for info, how much should a 1.5 ct cushion face up in mm?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/8/2010 11:08:03 AM
Author: luckynumber
thanks again lorelei, you''re a gem!

i''ll come back with some stats and ASET images if I can to get your opinions...

Of course you may! Also I just wondered if you had done any direct price comparisons comparing UK and US sold cushions? Sometimes even when you add the 2.5% import duty and 17% VAT, importing a diamond from the US can still be comparable with prices here....

 

[luckynumber]

lorelei, i''ve barely stopped my fiance from walking into tiffanys and buying the first novo he sees, he''s really not going to let me import from the US!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/8/2010 12:11:56 PM
Author: luckynumber
lorelei, i''ve barely stopped my fiance from walking into tiffanys and buying the first novo he sees, he''s really not going to let me import from the US!

LOL! No problem!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 2/8/2010 12:11:56 PM
Author: luckynumber
lorelei, i''ve barely stopped my fiance from walking into tiffanys and buying the first novo he sees, he''s really not going to let me import from the US!

LOL! Well, that wouldn''t be *so* terrible really.

 

[luckynumber]

shhh dreamer...don''t let him hear you! he''s already

about missing out on the whole champagne-drinking romance of it all

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/8/2010 12:25:21 PM
Author: dreamer_dachsie

Date: 2/8/2010 12:11:56 PM
Author: luckynumber
lorelei, i''ve barely stopped my fiance from walking into tiffanys and buying the first novo he sees, he''s really not going to let me import from the US!

LOL! Well, that wouldn''t be *so* terrible really.

Hehehe!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 2/8/2010 12:31:05 PM
Author: luckynumber
shhh dreamer...don't let him hear you! he's already

about missing out on the whole champagne-drinking romance of it all

Then why doesn't he propose with some other typeof ring, or no ring just a bag of money, and then let you pick the diamond later? Seems like the best of both worlds. Men

 

[luckynumber]

LOL!

he''s proposing whenever and however he wants, that bit''s completely up to him!

i get to be bossy about diamonds

yes, he really is one fabulous guy!

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 2/8/2010 10:14:32 AM
Author:luckynumber
Hi everyone,

I am hunting for a 1.5 ct cushion, not buying online (fiance wont buy sight unseen otherwise I would have headed straight to GOG).

Can anyone advise my on what to avoid, I know you can''t work on the numbers like you can for a round, but are there any absolute no-nos?

I''ve ordered an ASETscope and plan to wield it.

I''m looking for chunky facets, small culet, 8 main pavilion if possible ie more vintage look. Should I avoid ''modified brilliant'' completely if that''s the look I''m going for?

Is there there a cut-off for the depth or table, after which I should go

? What about crown angles?

Thanks for all your help!

I don''t think this will be an easy find, please furnish me with all your wisdom!

CCL and lorelei, please jump in anytime

Hi Luckynumber,

I am into this thread a bit late, the advice you have gotten so far should be helpful especially the links to the videos.

It sounds like you are interested in a:

i) 8 Main Antique Cushion Brilliant
ii) smallish culet (although these antique cushions even modern cut ones have medium to large culets so you want to find one medium or slightly large) very few have pinpoint culets as that can change the look and is less representative of the antique cutting style.
iii) Large Chunky Facets consistant with the vintage style of cuts
iv) You want a well performing stone with chunky flash and have ordered and ASET to view in person tp judge optical performance so you are interested in light return.

Here is the major difficulty that all UK vendors will have in helping you:

There is not enough information on any GIA lab report to allow us to judge cut in a Fancy Shape!

With fancy shapes most unfortunately GIA omits:

crown and pavillion angles
crown height
pavillion height
angles of the upper and lower half facets
star ratio

AGS is a little better as they provide crown and pavillion angles, but this is still not enough as there are combinations of angles and proportions that work and an interdependance between crown and pavillion angles which is not nearly as simple or well understood as in round diamonds.

I can''t stress how important a video and/or ASET will be to the selection process. It is expensive to call in stones you "think" will be nice only to find out that the numbers on a lab report do not tell the entire story.
There are certain cutting houses in New York and one in Japan cutting Square Cushion Hearts and Arrows that are known for their careful attention to cushions cut for light performance so its better if your vendor retains a relationship and knowledge of these vendors, this would be one of the first questions I would ask any potential vendor you consider working with.

Do you have knowledge and a working business relationship with cutting houses or vendors known to produce Cushion Brilliants or Old Mine Brilliants specifically cut for light performance?

Even if you do contact a well respected vendor like Dr. Indira or any other UK vendor, they will be most likely be importing stones either from the US or other Belgium and the taxes and import duties will have to be passed on to you anyway. I have enough trouble reccomending many US and Canadian vendors, let alone someone in the UK where we have seen even fewer excellent examples of cushions sourced for light performance.

Since you are looking for just one good stone in the antique chunky cushion style here is the safest range for this particular cutting style:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Table 48 - 58%
Depth 63 - 69%
Culet - Small - Large (based on your preference)
LW Ratio = 1 - 1.10 (You tend to find better cut stones that are more perfectly square, as they have less bowtie(obstruction) and symmetry issues)
Plot - 8 main antique (thick arrows on pavillion)
Name On Report - Cushion Brilliant or Old Mine Brilliant

Disclaimer:

Now this board has been over not judging cushions by the numbers ad nauseum, the point is well taken that a novice should not adhere strictly to a rigid set of ranges. You "might" find something that appeals to you that might break some or all the ranges I posted above, but in the interest of time and shipping and insurance costs if you want to save yourself and your vendor time and money you would be safest sticking with the above and this applies ONLY to the antique 8 main cushions. In addition if you are looking at a true antique cut (1830 - 1900s) each one is judged for its individuality and may be unique and light performance is not usually a top priority so these ranges would not apply.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notwithstanding everything stated above I still beleive you may consider discussing with your FF and showing him some of the videos and August Vintage Cushions available. If you want a modern cut in the old vintage style there is no vendor who can provide the same optics as the AVC line.

I don''t know your specs and budget precisely but as soon as you said 8 main antique cushion 1.5 Carats with a small culet and modern optics
these candidates came to mind:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6819/ (With Video)
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6933/
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6703/

Living in Canada I had the same reservations as your Fiance about buying sight unseen, so we sent two candidates to an appraisor local for viewing prior to purchase. As I''ve gained experience and seen a more cushions I would now be fully confident choosing based on a video, ASET and GIA or AGS certificate.

Good-Luck,

CCL

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 2/8/2010 11:11:24 AM
Author: luckynumber
thanks oldminer

i realise that the face up size will be smaller than for the equivalent weight round, but of course i would want to maximise the face up size as much as possible, without compromising too much on the optics.

for info, how much should a 1.5 ct cushion face up in mm?

6.8mmX6.8mm for a perfectly square stone with a tall enough crown and reasonable pavillion depth.

 

[luckynumber]

it''s really late in the UK now so i haven''t got the pep to read through your post CCL but wanted to say a BIG THANK YOU for taking the time to post so much information.

i will read it all carefully tomorrow, i am so grateful for your very kind help!

you are a star!!!

 

[CharmyPoo]

I originally wanted to buy my cushion locally from Canada but I was not able to find anything nearly as beautiful as what I saw on Pricescope. The vendors I worked with here had very limited knowledge of cushions and really had no idea what I was talking about. They didn''t want to talk about numbers and thought I was crazy when I pulled out my ASET scope. In the end, I purchased two cushions - one from ERD and one from GOG. These PS vendors are used to the extremely educated PS shoppers and our need for perfection.

So here is the piece that others may not agree on .. I think you have a better chance of getting a beautiful diamond by going to Tiffany. Evaluate the options they have available and post the measurements and photos on PS because there are some not so nice Novos but the chances of getting a nice one is higher. However, if you have the patience and find a vendor who is patient - you may luck out with a regular store.

I will also note that you may not necessarily want a 1.5 ct diamond - some times they are cut to hit the 1.5 ct mark and scarfice on performance.

 

[luckynumber]

Interesting thoughts charmypoo!

what kind of beast is the novo? 8 or 4 main pav? small or large facets?

maybe i should go and have a look at tiffany''s after all....

i have a vendor who is trying to source some chunky cushions for me at the moment, and i''ll also contact dr merchant, but i guess tiffanys may be a fall back.

i hope dr merchant reads this and pitches in....

i just dont want to pay tiffany prices waaah!

 

[Lorelei]

chunkycushionlover;

Even if you do contact a well respected vendor like Dr. Indira or any other UK vendor, they will be most likely be importing stones either from the US or other Belgium and the taxes and import duties will have to be passed on to you anyway. I have enough trouble reccomending many US and Canadian vendors, let alone someone in the UK where we have seen even fewer excellent examples of cushions sourced for light performance.

As the buyer has stated repeatedly they prefer to purchase from the UK, it is quite possible that Dr Indira Marchant could source some superb cushions for her. Indira is passionate about cut quality and has a special interest in fancy shapes so this vendor is the best person I know of in the UK to be of potential help to this purchaser. If I know of a vendor who might be able to help a certain poster here in the UK, then I am going to let them know about that vendor.

This is the situation in the UK. Typically with average jewellery stores, cut quality is for the most part not considered at all, jewellery shops mainly offer rounds with the occasional Princess, perhaps on rare occasion you will see another type of fancy shape - unless you go to the big names such as Tiffany where there is more choice for shapes and cut quality. It is difficult for UK buyers to find a good variety of diamonds to look at in typical jewellery stores and even harder to find those that are well cut, these are the problems that UK buyers routinely face. Online purchasing would of course broaden the options, only in this case the buyer won't buy sight unseen. Therefore we have to concentrate on helping them purchase in person as best we can, yes cushions cut for optical performance are going to be rare, but it is entirely possible with expert help that a suitable cushion can be found.

 

[luckynumber]

thanks again lorelei, you have summed up the UK situation perfectly.

i did manage to see about 6 cushions in the 1.25 to 2 ct range from one vendor already, but that took a lot of searching (if this vendor comes up trumps, i will mention him on PS). He is still trying to to source more chunky stones for me.

hatton gardens, the so-called diamond district of london, has been very disappointing. one pushy saleswoman didn''t have any 1.5 ct cushions, but happily pushed us into looking at 2 ct, not a sales tactic i admire

i can''t buy online folks, that''s that. i''m not even going to argue with my lovely fiance, who has already been very generous with the budget (the stone size is solely limited by what i can safely wear at work, and is way bigger than the UK average). My fiance is paying for it, so he must be 100% happy with the purchase. plus, we like face-to-face purchasing, and the knowledge that we can go back to the same place for cleaning, checking the claws etc which most UK vendors will provide free of charge for life. if there were literally several thousands of pounds (i mean £3000 and up) difference between UK and US vendors, then we may reconsider but i don''t think the difference is that big (i hope!).

ok, we may have to pay more, and look for longer, but i am hopeful we will find something we both love in the end

alll your input is greatly appreciated! you are all wonderful

 

[CharmyPoo]

Date: 2/9/2010 5:20:32 AM
Author: luckynumber
Interesting thoughts charmypoo!

what kind of beast is the novo? 8 or 4 main pav? small or large facets?

I must have missed that you were looking for a chunky cushion. The novo is one of Tiffany''s cushion - it is a 8 main modern cushion. People feel it most resembles the Square H&A but I feel it lacks the H&A of the square H&A and is more like a regular 8 main modern cushion. It has small facets and is not chunky.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/9/2010 7:05:07 AM
Author: luckynumber
thanks again lorelei, you have summed up the UK situation perfectly.

i did manage to see about 6 cushions in the 1.25 to 2 ct range from one vendor already, but that took a lot of searching (if this vendor comes up trumps, i will mention him on PS). He is still trying to to source more chunky stones for me.

hatton gardens, the so-called diamond district of london, has been very disappointing. one pushy saleswoman didn''t have any 1.5 ct cushions, but happily pushed us into looking at 2 ct, not a sales tactic i admire

i can''t buy online folks, that''s that. i''m not even going to argue with my lovely fiance, who has already been very generous with the budget (the stone size is solely limited by what i can safely wear at work, and is way bigger than the UK average). My fiance is paying for it, so he must be 100% happy with the purchase. plus, we like face-to-face purchasing, and the knowledge that we can go back to the same place for cleaning, checking the claws etc which most UK vendors will provide free of charge for life. if there were literally several thousands of pounds (i mean £3000 and up) difference between UK and US vendors, then we may reconsider but i don''t think the difference is that big (i hope!).

ok, we may have to pay more, and look for longer, but i am hopeful we will find something we both love in the end

alll your input is greatly appreciated! you are all wonderful

You are most welcome Lucky! And it is understood that buying online isn''t going to happen in your situation but we can still be of help to you!

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 2/9/2010 7:05:07 AM
Author: luckynumber
thanks again lorelei, you have summed up the UK situation perfectly.

i did manage to see about 6 cushions in the 1.25 to 2 ct range from one vendor already, but that took a lot of searching (if this vendor comes up trumps, i will mention him on PS). He is still trying to to source more chunky stones for me.

hatton gardens, the so-called diamond district of london, has been very disappointing. one pushy saleswoman didn't have any 1.5 ct cushions, but happily pushed us into looking at 2 ct, not a sales tactic i admire

i can't buy online folks, that's that. i'm not even going to argue with my lovely fiance, who has already been very generous with the budget (the stone size is solely limited by what i can safely wear at work, and is way bigger than the UK average). My fiance is paying for it, so he must be 100% happy with the purchase. plus, we like face-to-face purchasing, and the knowledge that we can go back to the same place for cleaning, checking the claws etc which most UK vendors will provide free of charge for life. if there were literally several thousands of pounds (i mean £3000 and up) difference between UK and US vendors, then we may reconsider but i don't think the difference is that big (i hope!).

ok, we may have to pay more, and look for longer, but i am hopeful we will find something we both love in the end

alll your input is greatly appreciated! you are all wonderful

The ASET will be your friend for equalizing the lighting. I wouldn't be afraid to march into Tiffanys or any vendors store or office bring your backlight and ASET scope and take a look. Be sure to lineup the girdle of the diamond flush and paralell to the lense of the ASET scope so the image is not tilted (this will take some practice).

Charmy is right considering your limited options you might find your preferred stone may be a Tiffany Legacy or Novo be careful though they are not all cut equally you may have to look through a bunch to find the best one. Try to take a look at the stones outside, under a table, away from the jewelry store lights etc. Maybe you and your FF can have the champagne experience when you go to places like Cartier or Tiffanys, that should be fun.

Good-luck,
CCL

 

[Cehrabehra]

Well - since you will be purchasing a stone that may or may not have known stats etc. here''s what you do.... use your eyes

It''s been done for decades and even in the face of the most exacting equipment, it is the eyes that stand back and behold the beauty and decide if the stone makes our hearts sing.

But bring the ASET with you and promise yourself you won''t buy one without using it lol