De Beers undercuts the man made diamond price

[tkyasx78]

What do you think the largest size earring will be? I know the largest they are making is 1 ct— but would they offer them in 1 ct per ear?

I recently ordered and received 1.4 ctw studs and the vendor put them in the wrong color metal so I sent them back. They’ve offered to re-set it and knock a couple bucks off for the hassle— but now I’m debating if I should wait until these come out. My preferred size would still be around 1.5 ctw. I don’t own any lab created gems. They are fun but I’ve always just wanted to wait for the “real thing”

I dont think they will offer 2 ctw studs . ( even if they did we still need the stones recut and put in a decent setting )
They said the only true 1 ct stones would be in the pendants
So we will need to order 2 pendants ( 900+ 900) = 1800
Then they will almost certainly need to be recut and then put in a 14kt or platinum setting ( depending on what you can wear for earrings)

 

[jen2mc]

I dont think they will offer 2 ctw studs . ( even if they did we still need the stones recut and put in a decent setting )
They said the only true 1 ct stones would be in the pendants
So we will need to order 2 pendants ( 900+ 900) = 1800
Then they will almost certainly need to be recut and then put in a 14kt or platinum setting ( depending on what you can wear for earrings)

Do you think the cut quality will be poor? I guess that (along with color and clarity) are the unknowns.

 

[tkyasx78]

Do you think the cut quality will be poor? I guess that (along with color and clarity) are the unknowns.

At 900$ for an uncertified 1 ct, they have little incentive to make cut quality ideal.
I am sure we will want to have them recut and polished so they will look as nice as possible.

 

[blueMA]

At 900$ for an uncertified 1 ct, they have little incentive to make cut quality ideal.
I am sure we will want to have them recut and polished so they will look as nice as possible.

I have been seeing many cheap CZs lately with practically perfect machine cuts under Idealscope. I have a feeling the mmd cuts will be surprisingly good given that they won't care of salvaging weight or work around inclusions, and cut precisely by machines.

 

[OoohShiny]

I have been seeing many cheap CZs lately with practically perfect machine cuts under Idealscope. I have a feeling the mmd cuts will be surprisingly good given that they won't care of salvaging weight or work around inclusions, and cut precisely by machines.

We can only hope!!

De Beers seem keen to not really bother (I'm not impressed with the blue and pink pictures, for example) but hopefully others will be able to pick up that ball and run with it

I guess the one key question might be whether PS-recommended cutters/vendors will be able/willing to recut MMDs - I get the sense that they are not keen on them, so may well not want to entertain recutting them...

I imagine that De Beers might also cut their stones as badly as possible to limit recutting to a decent weight - why not cut stones with a lot of weight in the pavilion and flat-top crowns, so any purchaser would need to lose a load of weight and diameter in a recutting process?

 

[pammbw]

While I agree that DeBeers has always been very good at marketing, don't forget another jewelry company that is very very good at marketing also - Mikimoto. They faced the same challenges as the MMD producers do now and overcame them with genius marketing. They made cultured pearls the norm for the jewelry industry by focusing on perfection, not natural. All the while facing smear campaigns by the big jewelry companies. It's all deja vu.

My question is- do any of you wear natural pearls?

I see a future where most women will wear perfect, gorgeous man made diamonds and natural diamonds will be strictly for the ultra wealthy, and only the most perfect will make the cut. The general public simply won't accept a cloudy, included, off color stone for double the price simply because it's "natural".

 

[blueMA]

I imagine that De Beers might also cut their stones as badly as possible

I doubt that because that would be bad for competition. Even if so, someone will soon pickup the slack.

 

[blueMA]

Just a glimpse into the automated cutting machines at work several years back

Nowadays, they're fully computer automated and even more sophisticated, using laser cutting. Vendors like Swarovsky has been manufacturing perfect cuts such as Pure Brilliance Cut (TolKowsky Ideal) for years, and they're also producing MMDs. You can buy perfectly cut CZs for less than 10 bucks nowadays.

I suspect the crystal graining of mmd may be more predictable than the natural gaining that resist cutting, often resulting in less than perfect cuts

 

[Miki Moto]

While I agree that DeBeers has always been very good at marketing, don't forget another jewelry company that is very very good at marketing also - Mikimoto. They faced the same challenges as the MMD producers do now and overcame them with genius marketing. They made cultured pearls the norm for the jewelry industry by focusing on perfection, not natural. All the while facing smear campaigns by the big jewelry companies. It's all deja vu.

My question is- do any of you wear natural pearls?

I see a future where most women will wear perfect, gorgeous man made diamonds and natural diamonds will be strictly for the ultra wealthy, and only the most perfect will make the cut. The general public simply won't accept a cloudy, included, off color stone for double the price simply because it's "natural".

Yes, you are correct natural pearls are hard to find. The cultured pearl industry is very different in that you cannot even walk into a store and purchase an 18” strand of natural Akoya pearls. These are collector pieces. Nearly all akoyas (as well as other pearls) are cultured... but they are from a real living oyster, only the oyster has been nucleated to get a head start at being “irritated” to start creating a pearl. Each pearl is created by the oyster and is unique work of nature. So the only choice really for pearls are cultured. So when women wear pearls today, they are still naturally created, not machine made. But... the demand for pearls has crashed since it’s glory days.

Diamonds are different.
Natural diamonds continue to be mined and are still available. However, if natural diamonds were no longer available, I believe the industry will crash and consumers will find a new gemstone as THE stone for jewelry. What keeps diamonds going now is the demand for natural diamonds in the U.S. mainly for E-rings (I think the we are about 52%? of total diamond consumption). MMDs exist only to simulate real mined diamonds because many people covet diamonds. If all diamonds were MMDs, no one would covet “diamonds” because MMDs are a commodity, made by a machine, that you can order up by the dozen. There is no allure in that for a e-ring or fine jewelry which are very emotional purchases.

Natural pearls, due to their rareness, were once prized higher than diamonds. Look at history... pearls once cost more than diamonds and all royals and the super wealthy (think Gilded Age, Vanderbilts, Astors), everyone had pearls as a symbol of wealth. However, due to the creation of cultured pearls and it’s mass availability, the price point of natural pearls crashed and today, pearls are not so coveted. Mikimoto has done a great job in focusing on quality as you said (I do loooveee their pearls ), but the pearl industry is no longer what it once was... they were the “diamonds” in another era. If you look at jewelry stores today, the pearl selection is probably not even 5% of total inventory.

And you are correct... it’s all marketing. Why does the U.S. love diamonds anyway... because A Diamond Is Forever and diamonds are a profitable business. If natural diamonds were to become mined out, I do not believe the jewelry industry would bother investing in MMDs as the margins are probably low. There will be a new stone... perhaps Emeralds Are For Eternity, or Rubies Rock! Some brilliant ad agency will tell consumers what’s the next stone.

Just my two cents.

 

[blueMA]

Most of the more valuable sea culture pearls nowadays are bead nucleated with way less than 1mm in natural nacre. Because of the pollution and cultured pearl sea farm water quality, the nacre thickness have gotten even thinner as of late with much quicker harvest. Our tolerance for the cultured pearls have gotten way more lenient over time, and it'll probably be the same with mmd.

http://www.pearlhours.com/index.php?pearl-nacre-thickness.html
Nacre thickness is classified by the following standards:

Very thick: A ≥0.6mm
Thick: B ≥0.5mm
Medium: C ≥0.4mm
Thin: D ≥0.3mm
Very thin: E < 0.3mm

"In Akoya pearl trade standard, 0.35mm is a minimum nacre thickness of Akoya Pearls. But now, it is hard to find Akoya pearls reach this nacre thickness."
http://www.shecypearljewelry.com/pearl-guide/akoya-pearls.html

 

[Karl_K]

The problem with something else replacing diamond is what?
Good natural ruby and sapphire is not found in enough quantity to fill the demand to take over.
They are also less resistant to damage than diamond.
Everything else that has significant quantity is either soft, fragile or both.
Diamond is unique that is has high hardness so it wont get scratched by dust and is just tough enough to most of the time last a lifetime, and it is available in enough quantities to build a worldwide market.

The most likely replacement is either man made something or none at all.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Diamonds, natural or MMD can be blocked automatically, i.e. the 8 main crown and pavilion facets. But final polishing is currently done by hand eye on naturals. That may be able to be automated because there is less need to swindle the last half a point to get to the nearest highest magic weight.

 

[HDer]

The problem with something else replacing diamond is what?
Good natural ruby and sapphire is not found in enough quantity to fill the demand to take over.
They are also less resistant to damage than diamond.
Everything else that has significant quantity is either soft, fragile or both.
Diamond is unique that is has high hardness so it wont get scratched by dust and is just tough enough to most of the time last a lifetime, and it is available in enough quantities to build a worldwide market.

The most likely replacement is either man made something or none at all.

People could go back to just hoarding gold jewelry which will last us until they finally figure out alchemy.

 

[ChristineRose]

People could go back to just hoarding gold jewelry which will last us until they finally figure out alchemy.

They have figured out alchemy. Lead into gold has done in a particle accelerator. Essentially you throw protons at the lead very, very hard, until the protons pop off and lead moves down the atomic table to gold.

It takes a tremendous amount of energy, far more than the cost of the gold you end up with.

I think gold suffers from the same problem as diamonds. Both are valuable because we like them and will pay for it, and they both used to be used as money. If the culture decides not to bother with them anymore, then they are worth slightly more than the next-best choice in polishing tools and computer circuits.

 

[WinkHPD]

A certain diamond cutter friend told me some years ago that one reason he had no interest in cutting synthetic diamonds is that the price is less ten minutes after it is sold than it was when it was sold. This meant that you could never inventory such diamonds without losing money, nor sell them with any kind of trade up or buy back guarantees.

He has just been proven right in a much bigger way than even he might have expected.

Wink

 

[HDer]

Less from that other forum:

Also, in thinking this through, their strategy is brilliant. Why? Because Australia and Canadian mines supply most of the worlds < 1ct size diamonds...DeBeers mines are all focused on 1ct+ production which is unique to African mines.

In addition, the diamond grows exponentially slower as it approaches 1ct - so maybe a 1ct might take 4 days but a 2ct could take 2 weeks...so they are focusing on the cheapest/fastest payoff for growth.

Anyway, basically they may put a big dent on competitors, and make a share in the market for < 1ct that they were not big players in for natural and thus combine it into a smart strategy for themselves (but bad for their competitors).

I think the info that a 2 carat diamond takes 3.5 times as much time to grow as a 1 carat is interesting. Presumably a 3 or 4 carat would take even longer.

 

[pearaffair]

This concept seems relevant:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

I’ve been enjoying the conversation immensely. Keep it up! Myself, I won’t a half carat superideal and feel no regrets but also won’t be buying any other diamonds until I see what these 1ct MMD look like.

I did buy a $20 Moissanite lately and it looks pretty awesome for the price

 

[blueMA]

This concept seems relevant:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

I’ve been enjoying the conversation immensely. Keep it up! Myself, I won’t a half carat superideal and feel no regrets but also won’t be buying any other diamonds until I see what these 1ct MMD look like.

I did buy a $20 Moissanite lately and it looks pretty awesome for the price

Yes, synonymous with Luxury Goods. Leaned the interesting demand curve a loooog ago with economics 101.

Moissanites can look pretty good in dim incandescent light, but looks flat and glassy in most other lighting. I remember seeing them for the first time under a jeweler's light and I was quite impressed with the scintillating quality that was always lacking in CZs. Bought one, but later got very disappointed the lackluster look in most day to day lighting.

 

[HDer]

I happened to be taking a look at Amazon Collection jewelry, and it looks like right now, you can buy IGI certified 0.25 ctw studs in 14k gold for 250: https://smile.amazon.com/Certified-Created-Diamond-Earrings-SI1-SI2/dp/B017XDD13E/?th=1

vs. what De Beers is promising: uncertified 0.25 ctw studs in 10k gold for 400: https://lightboxjewelry.com/collect...products/solitaire-studs_white_10k-white-gold

So this is another reason why I think De Beers's "transparent pricing" is clever marketing BS. They're going to barely break even or lose money on the 1 carat solitaire pendants but make a lot of money on the stuff with smaller stones, whether that's the 1/4 ctw halo pendant or 3/4 ctw "blue moon earrings."

 

[DaytonaG]

Do you think the cut quality will be poor? I guess that (along with color and clarity) are the unknowns.

Perhaps making the cut quality poor, and limiting the ct weight would backfire?

People who currently buy MMDs are not necessarily people who don't care about quality or social status. They are more concerned about making their money go further, i.e., with the same or better cut stone. These are still expensive products at the end of the day. Also, some people are favouring them as a more ethical product with less environmental impact than a mined stone.

These people would not be interested in a small, averagely cut stone in a silver setting from De Beers, no matter how cheap it was. A $2 H&A CZ would probably look better - so why pay $800?!

They'd be more than happy to pay significantly more for a 2 ct certified super ideal cut MMD in an expensive setting from Brilliant Earth. Admittedly, the price of such a stone would probably have to come down a bit, but they could still get away with charging a much higher price than $800 a ct. They'd still have a niche. The De Beers product would be hugely inferior.

Re social status: I have a mined diamond and it cost me an arm and a leg, but I didn't get it for the social status. I got it because I like the idea of it being made over millions of years - the romance of it all I suppose. I were not concerned about that, then I'd have happily bought a super-ideal MMD! (and, I'm not a 19 year old pizza delivery girl -I have a very good job!).

I'm sensing a great deal of contempt and snobbery from De Beers. I read an article where De Beers were saying the MMDs don't "deserve" to be certified. They need to be careful not to insult their own product and their potential customers!

EDIT: isn't it the case that MMDs suffers the same issue as mined? It is still included and relatively expensive, so cutter could still be cutting lower quality stones for economic reasons.

 

[Gussie]

Snobbery sells.

 

[Miki Moto]

I disagree that people who buy MMDs don't care about social status.
Some folks are now saying they may consider big huge MMD earrings because they are cheaper than mined-diamonds and can afford this lower price point. To me, that is all about social status. I am sure others will disagree, and have a different opinion.

Much of society is based on social status. It's a tough thing to admit, but it is what drives society. I also do not think it is a bad thing. The desire to be better than who you presently are, to do better than what you currently do... that is what moves mankind forward.

Mined diamonds sell because of the social status it implies due to their price. MMDs will now be seen as a dime a dozen, made to order on a machine. DeBeers is not being a snob, all they did was opened everyone's eyes and exposed MMD manufacturers like Brilliant Earth as to how much they were over charging for what is basically a machine made stone. As technology improves, and it always does, MMDs may even get cheaper.

Just my two cents of course from a consumer's view (not trade).

 

[DaytonaG]

I disagree that people who buy MMDs don't care about social status.
Some folks are now saying they may consider big huge MMD earrings because they are cheaper than mined-diamonds and can afford this lower price point. To me, that is all about social status. I am sure others will disagree, and have a different opinion.

Much of society is based on social status. It's a tough thing to admit, but it is what drives society. I also do not think it is a bad thing. The desire to be better than who you presently are, to do better than what you currently do... that is what moves mankind forward.

Mined diamonds sell because of the social status it implies due to their price. MMDs will now be seen as a dime a dozen, made to order on a machine. DeBeers is not being a snob, all they did was opened everyone's eyes and exposed MMD manufacturers like Brilliant Earth as to how much they were over charging for what is basically a machine made stone. As technology improves, and it always does, MMDs may even get cheaper.

Just my two cents of course from a consumer's view (not trade).

I think you have misunderstood my post. I said that people who buy MMDs are not necessarily unconcerned about social status. I think they may well be! As you say, having diamond jewellery does convey wealth in the way CZ does not.

I do disagree about De Beers not being snobbish though. There is a definite whiff of contempt to some of the things they have said and it could be quite belittling and insulting to some people. For example, telling people they "should not" give MMDs as engagement rings. Who are they to say that? People can make their own decisions; it's all about what motivates the particular person. If someone wants to give their fiancé a diamond ring, but hasn't got the money to spend thousands of pounds, then why not get their fiance a MMD?

And, as for pricing, I don't think the natural diamond market is any better than the MMD retailers when it comes to inflated prices. The mark-ups are huge all along the chain from the mine to the retailer! If people are going to try to expose MMDs as being too expensive, then people could do the same for natural diamonds too!

I don't think De Beers are playing fair here - it's all tactics. They could actually be in breach of anti-trust legislation - for "predatory pricing", which may ultimately drive down quality for consumers.

 

[WinkHPD]

As you say, having diamond jewellery does convey wealth in the way CZ does not.

I think you both are not realizing that well cut CZ jewelry looks like diamond jewelry and can fool even professionals with great eyes when worn in social settings. I have seen this happen and have heard great stories of it that I could only wish to have seen happen.

And, as for pricing, I don't think the natural diamond market is any better than the MMD retailers when it comes to inflated prices. The mark-ups are huge all along the chain from the mine to the retailer!

As an internet retailer, I can tell you that our margins are quite small. We all would love it if we could make even a few more points. Hundreds of site holders and cutters have gone bankrupt in the past two decades, and not because of huge margins.

I don't think De Beers are playing fair here - it's all tactics. They could actually be in breach of anti-trust legislation - for "predatory pricing", which may ultimately drive down quality for consumers.

Predatory pricing laws exist, but perhaps one case in many thousands is ever prosecuted. Too often the perpetrators laugh about it with impunity from prosecution. I will leave the political speculation to any who wish to make it.

Wink

 

[Gussie]

Of course it's all tactics. From the beginning. No one "needs" a diamond. They want one - for beauty sure, but also for the ideal of it. Debeers had a very large hand in that and is trying to keep it that way. I really don't see anything wrong with what Debeers is doing - trying to keep up with the game.

 

[DaytonaG]

Also, I'm not sure how De Beers can say all their MMDs are uniform in quality (as is said on their website). They say this is the reason they don't need any lab grading. From what I understand, CVD stones are hand cut, and have varying cut quality, clarity and colour.

Someone will know more than me, but I thought this was due to the fact that the rough material could be included in the same way as a natural stone, and that the stones are cut so as to avoid wastage, as they are quite expensive to produce (especially larger carat weights).

I only know this because I considered buying a MMD, so did a lot of research on them. I went for natural instead, partially because there wasn't that much of a price difference. With this in mind, maybe De Beers would be better off encouraging the high price rather than cheapening it?

And...just for clarity's sake, I wasn't saying De Beers are in breach of any laws in my post above. It was just something I thought of as I was typing!

 

[DaytonaG]

Of course it's all tactics. From the beginning. No one "needs" a diamond. They want one - for beauty sure, but also for the ideal of it. Debeers had a very large hand in that and is trying to keep it that way. I really don't see anything wrong with what Debeers is doing - trying to keep up with the game.

My only gripe is that it may drive down quality for consumers. We'll have to see how things pan out I suppose!

Wink, I know what you are saying about Cz. It does look realistic. When I first got my diamond the first thing I did was get a Cz ring out of my drawer to compare it to. I had to check I'd done the right thing spending all that money on a H&A! It looked surprisingly good against my diamond, but then I realised the CZ it was quite dead inside and turned to the side it looked like glass. I think it would have well outperformed a poorer cut diamond though...

Also, I wasn't really aiming my comment about pricing at online retailers. It was more bricks and mortar shops. In the UK you'd pay double the online price, and not get the best quality stone.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Anyone who thinks margins are fat ANYWHERE along the channel from mine to consumer should consider why some big mining concerns are leaving diamonds for more profitable minerals, why there are high profile bankruptcies sending shock waves through the manufacturing sector, why consolidation is happening at the producer and dealer level, and why brick and mortar jewelry stores continue the steep trend of closings unabated since great recession.

 

[diagem]

Also, I'm not sure how De Beers can say all their MMDs are uniform in quality (as is said on their website). They say this is the reason they don't need any lab grading. From what I understand, CVD stones are hand cut, and have varying cut quality, clarity and colour.

Someone will know more than me, but I thought this was due to the fact that the rough material could be included in the same way as a natural stone, and that the stones are cut so as to avoid wastage, as they are quite expensive to produce (especially larger carat weights).

I only know this because I considered buying a MMD, so did a lot of research on them. I went for natural instead, partially because there wasn't that much of a price difference. With this in mind, maybe De Beers would be better off encouraging the high price rather than cheapening it?

And...just for clarity's sake, I wasn't saying De Beers are in breach of any laws in my post above. It was just something I thought of as I was typing!

We are talking technology..., even if it’s not applicable yet (not at all sure it’s not yet), I am certain that in the near future all synthetic diamonds could be D IF, or perhaps you could type in a LMN and produce one?
Why grade such? I agree with De Beers.

 

[DaytonaG]

We are talking technology..., even if it’s not applicable yet (not at all sure it’s not yet), I am certain that in the near future all synthetic diamonds could be D IF, or perhaps you could type in a LMN and produce one?
Why grade such? I agree with De Beers.

If they can make perfect H&A diamonds on a uniform basis, then there is no need to grade them, but this is not the case at the moment.

What I think will happen is that De Beers will sell I2/I3, good or fair cut diamonds, with some colour to them. They won't sell anything as nice as a super ideal or even triple excellent natural stone, because that would defeat their objective!

That's why I still think there will be a niche for lab graded, high quality MMDs. People will pay more than $800 for those!