Deal of the century or big disappointment incoming?

[Chuckenator]

Hi all, short-time lurker and first time poster. I've learned more about diamonds in the past two weeks than I ever expected.

My diamond from BN arrives on Thursday and I'm very nervous (proposing on Saturday). The stats on the diamond seem amazing, but the price seemed too low. I'm not sure if this is an appropriate question to ask, but what would you guestimate the price of the following to be:

GIA certified
Carat: 2.01
Color: D
Clarity: VS2
Cut Grade: Excellent

Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: Strong Blue (supposedly verified to not be milky/hazy... that's what I'm most worried about)

Small pinpoints and crystals on map.
HCA score of 0.6 (depth 58.8, table 58, crown 33, pavilion 40.

Price: xxxx (what are your thoughts about the minimum it could be?)

 

[Chuckenator]

spoiler of actual price below.....












approximately $31,700 (including bank wire price)

 

[atp223]

I'm not by ANY means an expert, so many someone else can discuss the depth and c/p angles, but I just got an e-ring with fluorescence - regardless of bad effects from it, I think just it's presence lowers the price point. Mine is an I/si1 (also 2 carats), and we paid like 5+k less than comparable non-fluorescence stones.

I will say that I think the fluorescence is super awesome, and I do think it helps the stone look perfectly white at most times, but it only has med blue fl and when I am in direct sunlight, it definitely turns blue. I think it is really neat, but you should make sure your gf feels the same way, esp if she spends a lot of time outside during the day. Also, if my stone's fluorescence is activated enough under indoor fluorescent lighting to make it look perfectly white (I haven't confirmed this, but I can see the tint/contrast with the pave band in my kitchen, but then nowhere in my office). So I don't know what fluorescent lighting will do to her d - there is no yellow to make white, so it may just turn blue ish.

Anyways, you just might want to carry it around with you outside and under office/home lighting to see what it does!

And hopefully someone else can speak to the angles etc.

Congrats and good luck!

 

[denverappraiser]

Strong blue is the issue. Actually, D/strong blue/expensive is the combination that’s the issue. As I’m sure you’re aware, you are paying a substantial premium for the D, for the xxx, and for the 2.0+. You’re then pairing it with a substantial discount for the strong blue. It’s not that there’s a great problem with this but it’s a decidedly unusual path to take. How did you land with this particular stone? What were your specs and, in particular, how did you decide on the D color?

A certain percentage of strong blue fluros are what’s known in the trade as ‘overblue’. These have a milky/hazy appearance in sunlight and it’s a BIG deal. Make sure your dealer has actually looked at the stone and evaluated this before you go through the trouble and expense of shipping it. Flurescence isn't an easy attribute to shop for and I don't see much in the way of comparable stones in the database above 'medium' but I'm also curious how you decided this is a great bargain.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Chuck, I was helping someone on here look at blue fluorescent stones and I happened to find one that interested me. It was a virtual stone and I had Good Old Gold call it in because I knew Jonathan could check it out for negative effects. It had none, and was about 20% less than similar GIAXXX stones without it. So yeah, if it has no effects that she dislikes, then you will have gotten a great deal! I even ordered a little UV light from Amazon so I could see the fluoro! I actually like the idea of it and would be happy to see a little blue in sunlight! It'd a natural special effect! You shouldn't see it anywhere else really. Mine is coming today, so I can let you know what I think about mine anyway. I am not sure if we'll have sunshine today or not.

 

[Chuckenator]

(below is a summary of my diamond buying thought process... sorry for the novel, but hopefully it's somewhat interesting)

It sounds like the biggest factor in the price discount of this diamond is the strong blue fluorescence. I haven't actually seen the diamond, and I haven't seen enough diamonds in person to tell whether I'm a fan of the blue glow, but from online pictures of diamonds with strong fluorescence I definitely like the effect. However, the possibly hazy/milkiness has me concerned. The good news is the BN return policy. Although I will definitely propose with this diamond (no time to get another one if this one isn't great), I will still have over 3 weeks to return the ring for a full refund.

Originally I was going for visually appealing diamond based on what I read. Color F since it's very difficult to tell the difference once in a setting, VS2, and a highly rated cut. I was going for the diamond that would look the same as a perfect diamond outside of a lab (inside a lab with color grading and scopes would be different).

Frankly, I went into this not expecting to spend more thank $20k. However, I started rationalizing that I'd rather get a diamond that would never need to be upgraded that she would cherish for the rest of her life. I make a good living and this was all paid in cash (with healthy reserves) so I bit the bullet and went up to a 2 carat ring. This of course pushed the envelope closer to $30k and that's where the diamond selection began.

Originally I started with an F diamond and put that on hold. After discussing with a coworker that his girlfriend could see a difference between the E and F diamonds he was looking at, and she really wanted an E, I went back to the drawing board. It was a good thing because after more research the F diamond I had picked out wasn't that great (thick, not extremely good HCA score, and the diamond plot had clusters of inclusions that I thought, with my amatuer and untrained brain, could possibly not be eye clean). So, I ordered an E diamond that was around $34k and had medium fluorescence (everything else was top rated). Things were chugging along, BN was easy to work with and I thought I'd have my diamond in a few days.

That Friday night, I searched BN for the heck of it and was amazed to find a D rated diamond with an awesome HCA score, very clean plot and everything top rated for LESS than my current E. The difference was it had strong blue fluorescence. I jumped at the opportunity and ordered the diamond (BN was extremely easy to work with regarding the change). However, the next day I started getting more worried as I researched fluorescence and that it may cause it to look hazy. I mean what's the point on having a hazy D rated ideal cut diamond? The haziness can ruin all, at least that's what I see in the pictures and read online.

I called BN and they said they would verify that the diamond did not have a hazy/milky look before sending the stone. They verified it did not, but I haven't seen the actual diamond yet (arrives tomorrow) so I spend my nights Googling "fluorescence"...

Best case scenario: the diamond has a cool, clear blue tint in sunlight and a nightlight effect in a club setting (we don't really go to clubs) but with indoor light looks like a perfectly colorless diamond that sparkles like the cut indicates.

Worst case scenario: it's hazy/milky and will be sent back... the unfortunate part of that is she will not be wearing the diamond she was proposed to with

Do you think the large discount is because of the haziness or just because of the industry's natural aversion to anything rated strong fluorescence?

 

[Amys Bling]

The SBF is the cause for the discount.

 

[denverappraiser]

The SBF is the cause for the discount.

Bingo. Whether this is a feature or a problem depends on what you like. Personally, I think fluorescence is sort of cool but that's not the heart of your question. If what you like comes at a discount because it’s unpopular, that’s definitely a feature. If you see it as a defect that you’re willing to suffer through in order to get a lower price, shy away. Once upon a time, blue-white diamonds, which refers to the fluorescence, traded at a premium by the way. Things change. By all means get what you like -- ‘Currently more popular’ is NOT a synonym for ‘better’ even if it does cost more.

Bear in mind that BN doesn't have any stones and they can't actually look at it. What they're doing is ringing up their supplier and asking THEM to look at it. They may, in turn, have another supplier who is actually in possession of the goods and they'll ask them. Somebody somewhere will look at the stone and produce an answer to your questions but we're now asking questions of an anonymous stranger who has a $30k paycheck riding on the answer. That doesn’t make them wrong but the credibility of the data is fairly low at this point.

 

[Chuckenator]

The SBF is the cause for the discount.

Bingo. Whether this is a feature or a problem depends on what you like. Personally, I think fluorescence is sort of cool but that's not the heart of your question. If what you like comes at a discount because it’s unpopular, that’s definitely a feature. If you see it as a defect that you’re willing to suffer through in order to get a lower price, shy away. Once upon a time, blue-white diamonds, which refers to the fluorescence, traded at a premium by the way. Things change. By all means get what you like -- ‘More popular’ is NOT a synonym for ‘better’.

Bear in mind that BN doesn't have any stones and they can't actually look at it. What they're doing is ringing up their supplier and asking THEM to look at it. They may, in turn, have another supplier who is actually in possession of the goods and they'll ask them. Somebody somewhere will look at the stone and produce an answer to your questions but we're now asking questions of an anonymous stranger who has a $30k paycheck riding on the answer. That doesn’t make them wrong but the credibility of the data is fairly low at this point.

Great points.

I'm hoping it's a feature as you describe and something to love the stone more for, but hazy/oily will certainly counteract that.

Your summary of what actually happens at BN is what I thought/feared. I'm concerned because it means the diamond hunt will have to start again if there is hazy/oily, and I'm worried the only parties that have "verified" the lack of hazy/oily are parties with a vested interest in the sale, but all I can do at this point is wait and see...

 

[MichelleCarmen]

(Do you think the large discount is because of the haziness or just because of the industry's natural aversion to anything rated strong fluorescence?

There is no way we can tell you if the diamond is hazy so this question can't entirely be answered. Hopefully the diamond turns out to be the one of your GF and your dreams! Try not to stress about it! BN is a great company to work with. I've never purchased diamonds from them but have necklaces and earrings from them and have done a couple exchanges in the past and they are VERY fast and professional, so just relax and wait until your diamond arrives and then let us know the outcome.

Wishing you the best of luck!

 

[dmz]

After discussing with a coworker that his girlfriend could see a difference between the E and F diamonds he was looking at, and she really wanted an E, I went back to the drawing board.

Just a couple of comments:
- I'm sure some people can see the difference between and E and an F, but the difference is very slight
- If there was a visible difference, it could have been due to poorly/inaccurately graded stones
- Is it possible that the key point in that statement is that "she really wanted an E" and NOT "[she] could see a difference" ?
- the reason I ask is because in real world circumstances, the strong blue fluorescence is probably more noticeable than the difference between an E and an F colour.
- it really depends on what's important to you. nobody is going to notice if you have a D, E or F unless you tell them. it's more likely that someone would notice a strong blue fluorescence (in sunlight, or in club lighting, or some theatre shows). do you care if anyone notices?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

The discount is because SBF is written on the cert not because it has negative effects from the SBF (which you can only go by what you were told til you see it). There is an old prejudice against it in the jewelry industry which works to the favor of those who like it (in the stones that are not overblue). My ring just came and if you'd like to see pictures, you can look at my thread:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/new-1-58-g-vs1-from-gog-in-vatche-u-113-tiffany-repro.171351/#post-3116456#p3116456']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/new-1-58-g-vs1-from-gog-in-vatche-u-113-tiffany-repro.171351/#post-3116456#p3116456[/URL]

To summarize, I love my ring and think I got a great deal!!!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Chuck- in terms of day to day ownership experience non hazy fl will generally not have a strong effect - and of course some people actually prefer it.
From a value standpoint, you'll have a diamond that's going to be more difficult to sell at a future date.
The question is if this is made up for by the lower purchase price going in.
Not that I'm suggesting people buy diamonds as investments- but looking at the monetary ramifications just makes good sense.

 

[denverappraiser]

I'm concerned because it means the diamond hunt will have to start again if there is hazy/oily, and I'm worried the only parties that have "verified" the lack of hazy/oily are parties with a vested interest in the sale, but all I can do at this point is wait and see...

That's the reason fluorescent stones sell for less. Outside of the disco and the tanning salon, few people spend much time in high UV environments and it's mostly an academic question but shoppers fear the whole 'overblue' thing and compensate by avoiding ALL stones with fluoro mentioned on the reports, especially in situations where they can't personally examine it before purchase.

 

[TheGreatTwizz]

I, too, bought a strong blue floro stone (2.43 cushion, J color), and couldn't be happier. The fluorescence does make it face up a bit whiter, my appraiser showed me other 'strong blue' stones, and this has less than some GIA/AGS med blue graded stones. I wasn't for or against it, but the cost savings and extra bit of whiteness to the J made it a no brainer.

Not for nothing, I echo the sentiments that doubt a lay person could tell the difference between GIA/AGS graded E/F color. That said, I understand your wanting to never worry about an upgrade and buy the best you could, thus the D color. I, for one, prefer warmer colors, and her ring is well received and faces perfectly white anywhere shes goes, with exception to a yellow/brown room.

 

[TheGreatTwizz]

I, too, bought a strong blue floro stone (2.43 cushion, J color), and couldn't be happier. The fluorescence does make it face up a bit whiter, my appraiser showed me other 'strong blue' stones, and this has less than some GIA/AGS med blue graded stones. I wasn't for or against it, but the cost savings and extra bit of whiteness to the J made it a no brainer.

Not for nothing, I echo the sentiments that doubt a lay person could tell the difference between GIA/AGS graded E/F color. That said, I understand your wanting to never worry about an upgrade and buy the best you could, thus the D color. I, for one, prefer warmer colors, and her ring is well received and faces perfectly white anywhere shes goes, with exception to a yellow/brown room.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Hmmm. D color is overkill really, bu I guess that is only my opinion. That is a lot of money to spend on color. You could get a G with SBF for half the price and it would still be amazing. Most normal peopel cannot tell the difference between F and G, or D and G for that matter.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hmmm. D color is overkill really, bu I guess that is only my opinion. That is a lot of money to spend on color. You could get a G with SBF for half the price and it would still be amazing. Most normal peopel cannot tell the difference between F and G, or D and G for that matter.

What a great point!!
If you're already sacrificing the "purity" by purchasing a SB stone, why not just go for an F or G with SB.....it's going to look amazingly white, and save you a lot of money

 

[Chuckenator]

Thank you for the responses - they've been helpful.

To those who are saying why not go for a G color and save lots of money, BN's cheapest 2+ carat round with at least a G color, ideal cut, at least VS2 is $26,242... and that one has SBF! While that diamond is $5k less, I would think that the difference between D and G would be noticeable (I'm a rookie though). To get a diamond with faint or no fluoresence (G color), the price jumps to $28k, which is a $3k difference.

So I guess the true question is if a D color with SBF is worth $3k (or 10%) more than a G color with faint/no fluoresence? I think the answers will vary with the person (assuming no hazy/oily... I'm guessing everyone can agree that would be a bad idea).

 

[Chuckenator]

Hmmm. D color is overkill really, bu I guess that is only my opinion. That is a lot of money to spend on color. You could get a G with SBF for half the price and it would still be amazing. Most normal peopel cannot tell the difference between F and G, or D and G for that matter.

Not half the price, but for 10% less (see post above)

 

[dmz]

I think the answers will vary with the person.

You hit the nail on the head. Have you spoken with your fiancée-to-be? Because when it really comes down to it, her opinion is the one that matters. She might have strong feelings over fluorescence, or D vs G.

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

What is the most important variable for you? I mean, did you (specifically) go in search of a stone with:

1) D color
2) VS2 clarity
3) a stone with fluoro..esp. SB
4) 2 ctw
5) cost

cheers--Sharon

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Did you look at my link, by chance? Because mine is a G VS1 with SBF. If this was for me, I'd probably go for the G with SBF over the D and save $5000. The only reason to go for the D is if she specifically has said she strongly prefers D-F. If that is what she is expecting, then by all means stick with D.

 

[Chuckenator]

HI:

What is the most important variable for you? Did you "like" this stone...b/c of the cost?

cheers--Sharon

I haven't seen the stone yet so it's difficult to say if I truly like the stone. However, up to this point I like it because it seems to be an odd/rare combination. Most color D seem to have at most medium fluo, and many have none. In the 65 2+ carat diamonds with D color on BN, only two have stronger than medium (using VS2, ideal cut). Using the historical price guide at BN, they don't come up with a recent purchase of a color D two carat near the 31k price range (typically at least 38k, but those have medium/no fluo).

Anyway, I'm not trying to convince others this is a good deal, because I realize I'm a rookie and don't know what are good/bad deals. I'm trying to identify why the price was so much less, and the culprit is clearly the SBF. As it was mentioned earlier in the thread, I believe D color SBF used to be prized and called blue-white, though I realize that's no longer acceptable. It's kind of cool that it does seem to be on the rare side, which is making me like it more.

Again, if the stone turns out to be hazy/oily then this is all moot. If she ends up disliking the SBF, then back to the drawing board (I doubt that will be the case).

 

[Chuckenator]

Did you look at my link, by chance? Because mine is a G VS1 with SBF. If this was for me, I'd probably go for the G with SBF over the D and save $5000. The only reason to go for the D is if she specifically has said she strongly prefers D-F. If that is what she is expecting, then by all means stick with D.

It's going to be hard for me to respond without sounding like a hypocrite, but here I go

I know that higher quality stone is more important to her than size. With that said, I wanted to get her a high quality stone and yet breach the 2 carat mark. I was able to ask her if she would be ok with eye-clean but internal imperfections (VS2) and she was. The color of D is probably overkill, but I think she would prefer a smaller E (maybe F) to a larger G.

So, the hypocritical part is obviously the SBF. But, it depends on which school you belong to. It seems like some (a material percentage) prefer flu, while there is obviously a vocal part that avoids it at all costs. The market points to avoiding it at all costs over a preference, otherwise flu would be at a premium.

Right now, and this could be due to rationalizing, I'm in the camp of liking flu because of what I've read of how it reacts in direct sunlight. Whereas extremely well cuts may turn dark/black in direct sunlight, flu can turn blue. It may look odd to some, but I think it would be pretty cool and something not many have seen. A larger diamond may get more looks and more discussion around that phenomenon because it's more readily apparent.

I did see your thread, and I think your stone looks amazing. I'm curious if there is always a tint of blue or if it's only when sunlight is clearly hitting it?

 

[canuk-gal]

Did you look at my link, by chance? Because mine is a G VS1 with SBF. If this was for me, I'd probably go for the G with SBF over the D and save $5000. The only reason to go for the D is if she specifically has said she strongly prefers D-F. If that is what she is expecting, then by all means stick with D.

It's going to be hard for me to respond without sounding like a hypocrite, but here I go

I know that higher quality stone is more important to her than size. With that said, I wanted to get her a high quality stone and yet breach the 2 carat mark. I was able to ask her if she would be ok with eye-clean but internal imperfections (VS2) and she was. The color of D is probably overkill, but I think she would prefer a smaller E (maybe F) to a larger G.

So, the hypocritical part is obviously the SBF. But, it depends on which school you belong to. It seems like some (a material percentage) prefer flu, while there is obviously a vocal part that avoids it at all costs. The market points to avoiding it at all costs over a preference, otherwise flu would be at a premium.

Right now, and this could be due to rationalizing, I'm in the camp of liking flu because of what I've read of how it reacts in direct sunlight. Whereas extremely well cuts may turn dark/black in direct sunlight, flu can turn blue. It may look odd to some, but I think it would be pretty cool and something not many have seen. A larger diamond may get more looks and more discussion around that phenomenon because it's more readily apparent.

I did see your thread, and I think your stone looks amazing. I'm curious if there is always a tint of blue or if it's only when sunlight is clearly hitting it?

HI:

So "higher" quality to you is defined by the D color? Don't get me wrong, this color is the epitome for me, but all bets are off when it comes to fluoro. But that is just ME.

Can't wait to hear your observations when you see it IRL.

cheers--Sharon

 

[distracts]

I know that higher quality stone is more important to her than size. With that said, I wanted to get her a high quality stone and yet breach the 2 carat mark. I was able to ask her if she would be ok with eye-clean but internal imperfections (VS2) and she was. The color of D is probably overkill, but I think she would prefer a smaller E (maybe F) to a larger G.

I think you should be careful here about equating quality with color. The whole reason I went with a sapphire for my e-ring is that I'd only seen fairly white diamonds and found them dead boring - as soon as I saw an M colored diamond, I was in love. And an M colored diamond might not be as expensive as an F, but it doesn't mean it's lower quality. And that's not even getting into fancy-colored diamonds. So she wants a colorless stone with that is good quality, meaning few inclusions and good cut, or she wants a stone the market deems most valuable, would be better, less-offensive ways to put it.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Hmmm. D color is overkill really, bu I guess that is only my opinion. That is a lot of money to spend on color. You could get a G with SBF for half the price and it would still be amazing. Most normal peopel cannot tell the difference between F and G, or D and G for that matter.

Not half the price, but for 10% less (see post above)

Interesting. So SBF interacts with color to predict price. It is the same with clarity. For example, if you look at J color diamonds the effect of VS1 clarity versus SI1 clarity is much much less than the effect of the same clarity shift in an F color diamond. So in J color stones you can "splurge" on high clarity with little hit on the pocket book.

It appears that SBF has a similar effect on pricing as J or lower color -- with an SBF stone, the effect of color on pricing is less. Or put another way, SBF decreases the value of a D color stone much more than it decreases the value of a G color stone. In fact, SBF slightly increases the value of a J/K color stone too IIRC.

Anyways, you can spend your money how you like!

 

[Chuckenator]

I know that higher quality stone is more important to her than size. With that said, I wanted to get her a high quality stone and yet breach the 2 carat mark. I was able to ask her if she would be ok with eye-clean but internal imperfections (VS2) and she was. The color of D is probably overkill, but I think she would prefer a smaller E (maybe F) to a larger G.

I think you should be careful here about equating quality with color. The whole reason I went with a sapphire for my e-ring is that I'd only seen fairly white diamonds and found them dead boring - as soon as I saw an M colored diamond, I was in love. And an M colored diamond might not be as expensive as an F, but it doesn't mean it's lower quality. And that's not even getting into fancy-colored diamonds. So she wants a colorless stone with that is good quality, meaning few inclusions and good cut, or she wants a stone the market deems most valuable, would be better, less-offensive ways to put it.

I was using quality from the basis of D color, flawless stone with an ideal cut as the basis (no mention of flu, which obviously demands a higher market value). I said my girlfriend and I spoke about the inclusions which allowed me to relax the clarity to VS2. I kept the ideal cut, and a large part of this discussion has been about the color. So I kept to my basis of quality with relaxing the clarity, but then flu comes into the picture (market says bad, some say good, discussion ensuing).

Obviously different strokes for different folks.

 

[Chuckenator]

Or put another way, SBF decreases the value of a D color stone much more than it decreases the value of a G color stone. In fact, SBF slightly increases the value of a J/K color stone too IIRC.

This seems to be true. A D-color gets hit much harder by flu than a lower-grade color. I'm not sure why, either, because as I understand the history a blue-white diamonds were ideally D color (again, I'm a rookie so please correct me if my history is wrong). Perhaps it has to do with D-color buyers being color sensitive and therefore naturally wanting to avoid any color that would be produced by flu... makes sense.