Blog DeBeers' Disruptive Diamond Decisions

[Ibrakeforpossums]

Honestly, I had not thought to think about it. "ADI Forever" 2-way symbolism appealed to me before I was ever in the trade... But I'm not in the demo you invoke and that piques my interest.

Possibly a poll?

Or, if any youngs are reading this thread - I hope you enjoyed the typewriter! - feel free to weigh in on the topic.

I'm old and I loved your phonetic spelling.

 

[oncrutchesrightnow]

So many cool thoughts from you knowledgeable people.

momentum for now...but the miners shot themselves in the foot and overran the market with price increases leaving them extremely open to being replaced.

Maybe there is a psychological sweet spot where the expense of an earth diamond has to hurt a little bit to mean something but if the hurt gets too big, the customer switches to lab.

LGD's will make natural diamonds rarer because the bottom of the market will be stripped and the Maul stores will stop selling tons of frozen spit.
Frozen spit - half mined value.
If miners dont make money there will be no more mines.
No more mines means the rich will pay even more for scarce diamonds.

Logical. Rich is relative… if it’s true that the average budget for an engagement ring is $5k, then there will still be a demand for non-ugly diamonds that are not really that rare. Someone will have to come up with something to sell for $5k and if price per carat goes down to $400 for LGD then LGD engagement rings will not be expensive enough to collect all that disposable income.

OTOH that is a U.S. centric view. In places where the average budget is $500 then lots of people who wanted 1 carat diamonds but could not afford earth diamonds will be buying more diamonds than they are now. Maybe the market expansion is what will fill the gap when people who could afford to pay $5k but don’t need a LGD that big end up spending less.

DeBeers must also be aware that it’s brand cache is not, nor I suspect never will be high, with Gen x, Millennials and those younger. Besides the economics of what they are doing here, there’s the brand buttress effect of LB on DeBeers.

Prop up a brand seen as unethical and environmental bad with a newer, hipper, thought of as more ecological brand…it’s Big Soda Pop buying a bottled water brand at the height of the sugar is bad‘ movement. In the same way that market moved to drink water, but have a pop as a treat, DB could move to have a man made for your fashion stuff and an earth mined for your special things, e.g. Engagement and Anniversary gifts.

This is where it seems like the big companies that sell both earth grown and lab grown wanted to go. But they may have underestimated the number of middle class women who are happy with LGD engagement rings. Almost like people are buying big diamonds because they are pretty or something.

They've been pretty intelligent with naming conventions. Their retail stores may be "DeBeers" - but the Forevermark brand is standalone in ND world, as Lightbox Jewelry is in the LGD world. The most recent of those is Lightbox of course.



I think that sound is you hitting the nail squarely on the head. See my prior post about decades-long game plan... This would be the logical (my 2 cents) endgame.

PS: "A pop." I used to order a pop when I lived in Washington State. Once I moved to Texas "I'll have a pop" was met with a record-scratch, angry stares and someone behind me saying 'get a rope..."

I grew up saying pop, switched to soda when I moved away from home, and now years later am intentionally saying pop again.

Neat convo, y’all. Want to come back to the gender analysis of A Diamond is Forever later. There could have been other ways to attach emotions to diamonds… wonder why adif ended up being the strategy. Ironically it is probably women’s increased earning power that will turn LGD into a wardrobe staple of the middle class. Diamonds last longer than shoes and purses.

 

[AprilBaby]

ADIF commercials always appealed to me. Well shot and I loved the music. Made me want to go get another diamond. I’m old.

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

I'm old too, and the phrase resonates with me. Not sure why, maybe it's on different levels.
This union will last forever.
This diamond will make me feel wonderful forever.
At least something in this life lasts forever.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

ADIF commercials always appealed to me. Well shot and I loved the music. Made me want to go get another diamond. I’m old.

Not to mention ADiaGBF

 

[John Pollard]

@Garry H (Cut Nut) made me do it.

 

[Karl_K]

I got to thinking about this lightbox may partly be an attempt to get market share back from feature phones and large screen tvs.
In the none ering market, other jewelry including mmd is not the main competition it is consumer electronics.
Protecting the ering market for mined goods would seem to be primary.

 

[diagem]

Sorry John..., for some reason when I click reply the irrelevant portion of the post pops up, I needed to insert the relevant...

I think either you didnt understand my writing (could very well be) or I didnt explain myself correctly.., in any case, when I mentioned "they", it was meant to lab diamond growers in general with De Beers placed in the top grower ranks.

Lab diamond growers must detach themselves from the old natural methodic, lab grown diamonds will eventually be grown to design specifics, material value will be pretty much irrelevant and force detachment from natural values. At the end of the day, what one produces with them will determine their true values which might eventually surprise us all!

This is what I meant to say or write.

 

[diagem]

My point about De Beers John is that they have been three seprate companies under vastly different leadership.
De Beers in 1990's were nothing like De Beers today.
I have friends who were involved in negotiations to sell Argyle rough with them - they were holding on to a dream that had outlived it's purpose.

And Diamonds Are Forever should have been shelved 30 years ago. The idea is nuts. It can be taken to mean that you only need one.

Yes..., I heard about the potential rebirth of ADIF campaign..., like I said many, many times. We as an industry have a bad habit of always looking back and hope for cycled repeatability..., its quite a risky move but I am so far from underestimating De Beers.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Lab diamond growers must detach themselves from the old natural methodic, lab grown diamonds will eventually be grown to design specifics, material value will be pretty much irrelevant and force detachment from natural values. At the end of the day, what one produces with them will determine their true values which might eventually surprise us all!

And creative cutters like you Yoram can have an unimpeded field day with creativity oozing out of every facet!

Detachment from natural is vital.
Grading is done because no one trusts anyone. I sell graded diamonds because I do not trust the possibility of a client suing me! Not the other way around. Remember the old Harry Winston story - a client asked him if the diamond had a GIA report. Harry showed him the door.
Imagine you create a wonderful cut and GIA decides to call it a modified xxxxxxxxxx yyyyyyy xxxx?

My opinion from 2008:

OctoNus Publications : Letter to the Editor - Synthetic Appeal

 

[diagem]

And creative cutters like you Yoram can have an unimpeded field day with creativity oozing out of every facet!

Detachment from natural is vital.
Grading is done because no one trusts anyone. I sell graded diamonds because I do not trust the possibility of a client suing me! Not the other way around. Remember the old Harry Winston story - a client asked him if the diamond had a GIA report. Harry showed him the door.
Imagine you create a wonderful cut and GIA decides to call it a modified xxxxxxxxxx yyyyyyy xxxx?

My opinion from 2008:

OctoNus Publications : Letter to the Editor - Synthetic Appeal

I am noticing a similar trend downstream with consumers...
LGD are methodically compared to their natural peers on all the old school habits like for example the 4c's (which dont make any sense!!) But that is because we as an industry are completely stuck creative wise regarding diamond works.

And when LGD are crafted mostly into RB's etc..., (again), and some well known brands sell them at $800 PC (who imagined that De Beers from all companies will communicate diamonds to consumers on a pc basis).., justifying 3D optical symmetry precision or other designer cuts that sometimes can take 1-2 weeks to cut becomes a near impossible task!

Grading is so unnecessary (disclaimer: from the LGD's I crafted & sold, none were accompanied with grading reports), I always offer the option but believe my clients understand the non-common sense in grading schemes developed for naturals.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Grading is so unnecessary (disclaimer: from the LGD's I crafted & sold, none were accompanied with grading reports), I always offer the option but believe my clients understand the non-common sense in grading schemes developed for naturals.

Hug Kiss Hug Yoram!
Gutsy - but you have always been decades ahead of the pack!

 

[oncrutchesrightnow]

At the end of the day, what one produces with them will determine their true values which might eventually surprise us all!

Yep. I intend to buy more lab diamonds in the future. I will buy cheap ones in traditional cuts for fashion jewelry. I will pay more money for LGD that are experimental or specialty cuts like AVRs (and other ones that might be coming down the pipeline).

I was browsing on Etsy last night and would not bet money on lab rough.

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

"I was browsing on Etsy last night and would not bet money on lab rough"
What does this mean? You see a lot of LGD on etsy?

And if I may ask, from where where do you like to get your lab-growns?
I bought a princess on sale from LB during their sale last year. Never again. They don't grade the diamonds "because they're all the same." Well, I guess we are too, too dumb to notice a difference.

 

[diagem]

Hug Kiss Hug Yoram!
Gutsy - but you have always been decades ahead of the pack!

I also dont process them through HPHT to "whiten" them..., I prefer selecting interesting color modifiers that I find will be pretty and complimenting in their polished state.

Love the material as I learn it more..., type IIa's with nice pinkish and sometimes mixed with some faint brownish tones..., basically dreamy material for naturals but man made and readily available!!

I suppose I do have a different view on this unsettled subject!!

 

[John Pollard]

Sorry John..., for some reason when I click reply the irrelevant portion of the post pops up, I needed to insert the relevant...

I think either you didnt understand my writing (could very well be) or I didnt explain myself correctly.., in any case, when I mentioned "they", it was meant to lab diamond growers in general with De Beers placed in the top grower ranks.

Thank you @diagem - I understand now. In that context I agree completely.

I am noticing a similar trend downstream with consumers...
LGD are methodically compared to their natural peers on all the old school habits like for example the 4c's (which dont make any sense!!) But that is because we as an industry are completely stuck creative wise regarding diamond works.

I've been railing about this since my first LGD encounter...

"Why?"

There was a cornerstone moment - as the first gem-quality LGDs successfully penetrated the marketplace and started gaining attention - when the jewelry-focused LG Founding Fathers (I could say "Foundry Fathers?") could have established their own standard. The LG industry could have simplified things and made buying easier. Is there a need to apply 11 different clarity levels to LGD? Is there a need to apply 23 (normal range) color levels? Or could LGD have established new ground by having easy to understand levels... For clarity, a LGD could be either "Very-clean, Eye-clean or Unclean (haha)." Something similar for color.

Instead, the LGD pioneers handcuffed themselves to nuanced natural diamond comparisons - which means they unavoidably handcuffed themselves to Rap-price comparisons. And now that every natural diamond sightholder has set up their own offshore operation to produce LGD it's unlikely those handcuffs will come off.

Lightbox, in that sense, has been smartly marketed. You don't hear much discussion about lightbox clarity, nor color. It's eye-clean. It's white, pink or blue. Simple. It will be interesting to see where they take "Finest." At the moment they stipulate VVS+, F+, which would be in-line with my poor-mans' system of "Very-clean, Colorless." One convenience of doing it that way - a separate system from the traditional 4Cs - is that I don't see Lightbox getting compared to Rap much, whereas I see it constantly for other LGDs.

 

[Karl_K]

Instead, the LGD pioneers handcuffed themselves to nuanced natural diamond comparisons

They were and are marketed as diamonds just like diamonds but a different source.
The 4c's are so ingrained with polished diamonds that to market as diamond they were handcuffed to it by the market.
Where DeBeers is tying to push them as kewl toys but not for serious stuff so they do not want to use the same system.

 

[AprilBaby]

But again, LB is now going into serious stuff with 18 kt gold settings for their new 2 ct $1600 diamond Solitaire Ring.

 

[Karl_K]

But again, LB is now going into serious stuff with 18 kt gold settings for their new 2 ct $1600 diamond Solitaire Ring.

Yea, they are waking up that they lost the first round but its a 20 year fight for market.
Which is frankly amazing that the market is moving DeBeers even if its kicking and screaming LOL
Those newer to the diamond world may not get that one. All those bad stories you hear about them are likely based in fact at one time.

 

[AprilBaby]

If I’m buying. a lab grown diamond engagement ring I still want to know the cut, the color, the clarity. If I buy LB they promise F + color and VS+ clarity. It’s only cut I don’t know. Then for the price look with the eye. Can you live with it for that price? And in 18 kt gold? Sounds like a winner to me. A diamond is a Diamond. Maybe their new logo with cool music? ADIAD?

 

[John Pollard]

If I’m buying. a lab grown diamond engagement ring I still want to know the cut, the color, the clarity. If I buy LB they promise F + color and VS+ clarity. It’s only cut I don’t know. Then for the price look with the eye. Can you live with it for that price? And in 18 kt gold? Sounds like a winner to me. A diamond is a Diamond. Maybe their new logo with cool music? ADIAD?

I want to be sure you're referring to the "Finest" collection from Lightbox when you're invoking F+, VS+... "Lightbox Jewelry" will continue to be generic white, pink, blue, eye-clean.

If so, they are only saying cut for "Finest" will be Excellent, in which case experienced community members know what to expect. The DeBeers grading system for cut isn't much different than GIA's.

 

[oncrutchesrightnow]

"I was browsing on Etsy last night and would not bet money on lab rough"
What does this mean? You see a lot of LGD on etsy?

And if I may ask, from where where do you like to get your lab-growns?
I bought a princess on sale from LB during their sale last year. Never again. They don't grade the diamonds "because they're all the same." Well, I guess we are too, too dumb to notice a difference.

The number of LGD sellers appears to have increased without there being much difference in quality among them. LGD rough seems already to be plentiful and reliably of no worse quality than the rough behind most mall jewelry store diamonds. So the price of LGD rough would fall and the remaining value of LGD would be in their cut. I like DG’s AVR.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I want to be sure you're referring to the "Finest" collection from Lightbox when you're invoking F+, VS+... "Lightbox Jewelry" will continue to be generic white, pink, blue, eye-clean.

If so, they are only saying cut for "Finest" will be Excellent, in which case experienced community members know what to expect. The DeBeers grading system for cut isn't much different than GIA's.

By and large CVD (which is what probably most +1ct are) are cut on the slightly shallow side so poor cut is going to less of a problem than it is for natural diamonds (and most larger HPHT).
Most smaller diiamonds are HPHT and suffer from the same overly deep cutting based on the cubo-octahedral dodecahedral type or rough usually grown.

 

[Md Foysa]

That is one thing that could do it,

 

[diagem]

Lightbox, in that sense, has been smartly marketed. You don't hear much discussion about lightbox clarity, nor color. It's eye-clean. It's white, pink or blue. Simple. It will be interesting to see where they take "Finest." At the moment they stipulate VVS+, F+, which would be in-line with my poor-mans' system of "Very-clean, Colorless." One convenience of doing it that way - a separate system from the traditional 4Cs - is that I don't see Lightbox getting compared to Rap much, whereas I see it constantly for other LGDs.

Why even start with a failed system in the first place?
It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me

 

[AprilBaby]

I want to be sure you're referring to the "Finest" collection from Lightbox when you're invoking F+, VS+... "Lightbox Jewelry" will continue to be generic white, pink, blue, eye-clean.

If so, they are only saying cut for "Finest" will be Excellent, in which case experienced community members know what to expect. The DeBeers grading system for cut isn't much different than GIA's.

That’s what they have before the new “ finest” .

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Why even start with a failed system in the first place?
It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me

Common sense is not common

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

If I’m buying. a lab grown diamond engagement ring I still want to know the cut, the color, the clarity. If I buy LB they promise F + color and VS+ clarity. It’s only cut I don’t know. Then for the price look with the eye. Can you live with it for that price? And in 18 kt gold? Sounds like a winner to me. A diamond is a Diamond. Maybe their new logo with cool music? ADIAD?

I bought a .75 princess during their sale last summer for a coworker. I begged them to send me a nice one, this person is a wonderful nurse whose husband vacuumed her e-ring and threw it out. They sent me a very J or below square stone that faintly resembled a princess on drugs. It was crap. I offered to return it and my coworker said she'd keep it. She may have been embarrassed to decline it for who knows how many reasons.
This still bothers me. I may have been ordering latex gloves from Amazon for all it mattered. Sell crap, treat customers like crap. I'll go elsewhere and pay more. DeBeers, do you read this stuff?

 

[John Pollard]

Why even start with a failed system in the first place?
It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me

Yoram - I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying the failed system is the traditional one? Or the Lightbox approach?

 

[John Pollard]

That’s what they have before the new “ finest” .

I may be misunderstanding, but that's not what I have seen from their marketing (and in the product) before the announcement of the new collection.

Until now, for their core line, they have stipulated color as being Near-Colorless, clarity as VS1-VS2 and cut as VG.

Edited to add: Weirdly, when I try to create a "live link" to the quality page it gets redirected here on the forum.

If you cut and paste the below into your browser you should get to their page titled: "Our Lab-Grown Diamond Quality." There are tabs there for Cut, Carat, Clarity, Color.

lightboxjewelry.com/pages/our-quality