Demantiod Custom Engagement Ring Help

[A_Peterson]

Hello Folks,

I’m a poor rookie trying to design a custom engagement ring. Please excuse the novel below…


The excellent female in question is in the (long, long) process of becoming a Veterinarian. This means that most of the time she can’t wear a large engagement ring with a big shiny diamond on it.

However, she could probably wear a sturdy, low profile wedding band just fine. So, I am trying to think of ways to make an extra-nice wedding band.

My initial idea was to mount a baguette-cut diamond in the wedding band (longwise), flanked by two similar sized emeralds (also baguette-cut, oriented longwise). I’m not sure of the dimensions, but I’m guessing that each of the stones would probably be 1-2 mm wide by 5-7 mm long. On the engagement ring itself, I was considering adding a pair of round emeralds, maybe 2-3 mm in diameter.

This is still my initial design, but through some cursory book-reading and google searching it seems that emeralds are not actually very sturdy at all, and are typically not recommended for everyday jewelry, like wedding rings. This leads to question number 1:

1) Are 1-2 mm by 5-7 mm baguette-cut emeralds too fragile for front-line wedding ring duty? How about 3 mm rounds?


Assuming that emeralds are really much too fragile, I figured that I might want to go instead with tsavorite or (preferably) demantoid baguettes and rounds instead. Unfortunately, I can only seem to find 1+ carat sized gems, much too big for anything that I need. This seems very counter intuitive to me, since smaller gems are so much more common than larger gems...
Is it just too much hassle to cut and stock these smaller sizes?

I know that deep, vibrant, excellent cut, loupe clean gems will cost a good deal more, but I really don’t mind paying extremely high per-carat weight, because the gems are so small.

This leads to the second question:

2) Where on earth can I find extremely high quality, near-perfect demantoids (or even tsavorites) that are in this shape and range of sizes? Do these gems even exist at all?

Thank you in advance,

-Andrew

 

[ephsea]

Demantoid garnet won't hold up to daily wear as a ringstone. Tsavorite wouldn't really, either. Diamonds are a great choice for durability. Perhaps you could also look at some chrysoberyl? It comes in yellow to green varieties.

 

[pregcurious]

I agree that demantoid is too soft for daily wear, but one can find great demantoids at http://wildsglobalminerals.com/.. They also sell on Ebay on Etsy. I think the prices vary a little depending on the commission structure of Ebay/Etsy.

Other vendors who carry demantoids are:
Jeff Davies
Litnon

 

[A_Peterson]

Thank you for the sources. I have already sent an e-mail to litnon, hopefully I will hear back from them soon.


As regards to durability issues with Demantoid, I guess I should have expected that.

I know that it is a little softer than tsavorite (and diamond, obviously), but I was hoping that a small gem set flush with the band would not be nearly as big of a problem.


Going by completely anecdotal evidence, I have also seen a number of people on this site putting together wedding rings with Demantoid solitaries, which I would imagine would be much, much worse.


I guess I'm being mislead by the following types of quotes from all over the internet:
http://www.gemselect.com/gem-info/demantoid-garnet/demantoid-garnet-info.php
"Demantoid garnet is used in all types of jewelry and suitable for any design with regard to hardness and durability. It has excellent hardness, brilliance and fire which makes it ideal for use in exquisite ring designs."

 

[A_Peterson]

I guess what I'm asking is, much does the size and mounting of the stone affects its durability?

Can I get away with some small, flush set stones, or is that material simply that objectionable?


Also, I have yet to see really good quality, bright green, round or baguette-cut, small demantoids.

Do these really exist?

 

[LoversKites]

I guess what I'm asking is, much does the size and mounting of the stone affects its durability?

Can I get away with some small, flush set stones, or is that material simply that objectionable?

....I'm not sure myself. They will probably get facet abrasion over time. I'd be careful with demantoid. Others will chime in with more knowledge.

Also, I have yet to see really good quality, bright green, round or baguette-cut, small demantoids.

Do these really exist?

I highly, highly doubt you'll find baguette cut demantoids. Round, yes, because it shows the high dispersion of the stone much better.

How small do you need? Demantoids in general are found in small sizes. Litnon has one that is .11ct, 3mm round listed. Maybe they have more that are more chrome in colour.

A PSer once bought from a website called www.ilatminerals.com (or www.ilatminerals.ru in Russian) and they sell parcels of small ones. Like:
http://ilatminerals.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=57&product_id=245
http://ilatminerals.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=57&product_id=250
http://ilatminerals.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=57&product_id=266

Maybe they could put together a parcel to your exact specs? Their current parcels seem to be all under 3mm.
The seller seems legit and the PSer who bought from them was happy but I can't speak from personal experience.

 

[LoversKites]

I guess I'm being mislead by the following types of quotes from all over the internet:
http://www.gemselect.com/gem-info/demantoid-garnet/demantoid-garnet-info.php
"Demantoid garnet is used in all types of jewelry and suitable for any design with regard to hardness and durability. It has excellent hardness, brilliance and fire which makes it ideal for use in exquisite ring designs."

Yes, you are being mislead, demantoid is 6.5-ish on moh's scale whereas diamond is 10. 8+ is generally what I see recommended for daily wear rings (spinel, sapphire, ruby, chrsyoberyl) though it is possible to wear softer stones if care is taken.

 

[chrono]

Coloured gemstones just don't like to be baguette shaped because most rough material is best suited as ovals (less rough wastage and holds colour better). You will find most demantoids to be rounds, most tsavorites to be cushions and ovals, and most emeralds to be, well...emerald cut. In this case, the emerald and tsavorite are going to hold up much better than the demantoid. Although being flush set protects everything below, the top is still exposed to damage. Trying to replace a flush set gem is another set of challenge. Going too small has its own downsides - the larger the material, the easier it is to get better colour. If too small, there just isn't a long enough path for the light to bounce around before coming back to the eye, hence many smaller size gems look weak and watery in comparison. In short, your search will be easier if the gem is close to the 1 ct mark and any shape other than baguette.

 

[deskjockey]

Also, I have yet to see really good quality, bright green, round or baguette-cut, small demantoids.

Do these really exist?

How small? Jerry Newman has some that are 2-2.5 mm (the pictures don't show the deep chrome green but they should be quite bright):

http://www.gemartservices.com/stones.php?id=demgar001

That said even flush set/protected I would NOT choose demantoids for daily wear (and I even have a demantoid ring I probably wear far too often!). Chrysoberyl seems a better choice even though it's not the green you're looking for.

 

[Kelli]

Just wanted to add that I have a small demantoid in a solitaire. While it's beautiful and I LOVE it… I'm very very careful with it, I've only had it for a few months, and it has THREE chips on the surface. One was my own fault, and my jeweler must have done the others (which I was not pleased about). I have to look very closely to find them and for me they don't ruin the beauty of the ring, but I would NOT want a chipped up wedding or engagement ring.

If you're sticking with smaller sizes anyway, you may as well go for the diamonds. They pack more of a punch due to their brightness and there's nothing sturdier. If you go for small stones in a protective setting, she'll be able to wear it all the time.

 

[distracts]

I guess I'm being mislead by the following types of quotes from all over the internet:
http://www.gemselect.com/gem-info/demantoid-garnet/demantoid-garnet-info.php
"Demantoid garnet is used in all types of jewelry and suitable for any design with regard to hardness and durability. It has excellent hardness, brilliance and fire which makes it ideal for use in exquisite ring designs."

There's a pretty serious difference in the amount of wear an occasionally-worn ring gets and an engagement ring gets. Most people wear their engagement rings at least all the time while they are awake, and plenty wear them 24/7. While there are certainly people on this forum who have garnet engagement rings, I guarantee none of them wear them all the time - the ones I know wear them ONLY when they are outside of the house or have company over AND are not doing anything with their hands. Pandora, who has a tsavorite engagement ring, carries a ring box in her purse to pop it in whenever she has to carry anything.

I am sure you could have stones custom cut to the size/shape you want but smaller stones are often less intense in color, and I imagine this would be doubly so with step cuts.

My vet wears a Sholdt Vashon: http://www.sholdtdesign.com/Vashon/R379.htm (Yeah, I notice it every time and think "damn that's a nice ring!") Gloves go on over it easily, it's super-easy to clean, etc.

When you say you want the stone set longwise, do you mean east-west like this - http://www.crossjewelers.com/products/product.aspx?ID=322 ?

 

[A_Peterson]

There's a pretty serious difference in the amount of wear an occasionally-worn ring gets and an engagement ring gets. Most people wear their engagement rings at least all the time while they are awake, and plenty wear them 24/7. While there are certainly people on this forum who have garnet engagement rings, I guarantee none of them wear them all the time - the ones I know wear them ONLY when they are outside of the house or have company over AND are not doing anything with their hands. Pandora, who has a tsavorite engagement ring, carries a ring box in her purse to pop it in whenever she has to carry anything.

Ahhh, that makes alot of sense. Thank you.

When you say you want the stone set longwise, do you mean east-west like this - http://www.crossjewelers.com/products/product.aspx?ID=322 ?

Yes, that's exactly what I had in mind...

 

[A_Peterson]

Thank you all, this is a ton of excellent information, I think I'm understanding things much better now...


The reason I'm reaching for emerald, tsavorite, and demantoid is because, well, she likes green. : )


Is there something out there that will hold up well to day to day use and still be a nice vibrant green?
(Or what will hold up best, in your opinion?)


A few of you have mentioned diamonds. Did you mean some sort of green diamond? (Sorry if that's a stupid question)


Thanks!

 

[chrono]

The problem is that nature does not make any attractive yet durable greens.

Tsavorite - too soft for everyday wear
Emerald - too soft for everyday wear
Chrome tourmaline - too soft for everyday wear
Chrome diopside - too soft for everyday wear
Demantoid - too soft for everyday wear
Green sapphire - great for everyday wear BUT they tend to be far from vibrant
Chysoberyl - great for everyday wear AND vibrant but is more chartreuse than straight green
Green zircon is chippy for everyday wear
Green tourmaline is chippy for everyday wear
Green diamond - great for everyday wear but the vibrant ones are $$$$$

 

[A_Peterson]

Coloured gemstones just don't like to be baguette shaped because most rough material is best suited as ovals (less rough wastage and holds colour better). You will find most demantoids to be rounds, most tsavorites to be cushions and ovals, and most emeralds to be, well...emerald cut. In this case, the emerald and tsavorite are going to hold up much better than the demantoid. Although being flush set protects everything below, the top is still exposed to damage. Trying to replace a flush set gem is another set of challenge. Going too small has its own downsides - the larger the material, the easier it is to get better colour. If too small, there just isn't a long enough path for the light to bounce around before coming back to the eye, hence many smaller size gems look weak and watery in comparison. In short, your search will be easier if the gem is close to the 1 ct mark and any shape other than baguette.

Ah, this makes alot more sense now. Thank you.

 

[A_Peterson]

The problem is that nature does not make any attractive yet durable greens.

Green diamond - great for everyday wear but the vibrant ones are $$$$$

This actually exists? O.0

(remember, you're talking to a gemological idiot)

Like I said earlier, since we're talking about 2-3 mm rounds and a pair of 2-6 mm emeralds or baguette cut, I wouldn't mind paying a very high per carat price, because we're only talking about 0.1 carats per stone anyways....


Is there a special treatment involved here?

Where does one find quality examples?

 

[chrono]

A single 2 mm untreated vibrant green diamond runs several thousand dollars, if you can find one. Finding a matched pair might take a few years.
http://www.leibish.com/green-diamond/014ct-fancy-deep-blue-green-princess-si2-27274-6195

 

[A_Peterson]

A single 2 mm untreated vibrant green diamond runs several thousand dollars, if you can find one. Finding a matched pair might take a few years.

So what you are basically saying is....

There is no hope.

 

[chrono]

It goes back to my earlier post; nature doesn't produce durable vibrant untreated green gems but on the rare chance that this happens, it is very expensive.

 

[A_Peterson]

Alright, as I understand it:

Demantoids and tsavorites are too soft (mohs rating of 6.5, 7, respectively), so they will get scratched.

Emeralds have fairly good hardness (7.5-, but they are inclusion filled and prone to fracturing.


What about a near flawless emerald?

Does that buy me enough durability for a small, flush mount stone?

Also, is it within a sane price range?

 

[chrono]

You might be able to swing it with an emerald, if flush or gypsy set. The jeweller will most likely recommend 18K yellow gold because it is softer and less likely to damage the emerald during the setting process. If very clean, emerald (beryl) is surprisingly durable and the chip-iness can be lessened by the type of setting, including going with a smaller size.

 

[distracts]

A single 2 mm untreated vibrant green diamond runs several thousand dollars, if you can find one. Finding a matched pair might take a few years.

So what you are basically saying is....
There is no hope.

Well, there are treated green diamonds. I don't know if you can find vibrantly colored ones at such a small size. The ones I've seen are more of a murky swampwater green.

I would think going with a green colored stone and careful wear would be preferable. But I'd discuss the options with your girlfriend first. Even if she loves green, she may not have ever envisioned green on her engagement ring, or having an engagement ring that isn't as durable as a diamond one.

 

[chrono]

Not the best cut but the colour is great, it is untreated and also within the realm of affordability.
Untreated 3 x 4 mm @ $400
http://www.embassyemeralds.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=573

 

[kroshka]

Alright, as I understand it:

Demantoids and tsavorites are too soft (mohs rating of 6.5, 7, respectively), so they will get scratched.

Emeralds have fairly good hardness (7.5-, but they are inclusion filled and prone to fracturing.


What about a near flawless emerald?

Does that buy me enough durability for a small, flush mount stone?

Also, is it within a sane price range?

Hi A_Peterson,

I'm not sure what your budget is, but, if you want small green diamonds in the 1.3-1.9mm size, they might be available at Langerman's Diamonds. I'm not sure of the exact shade you are willing to accept - i.e. bluish green or you only want deep greens, but I did see some while I was there. They won't have GIA reports, but Langerman's says they only deal with natural fancy colored diamonds with exception of blacks. And because the sizes would be so small, GIA would not issue reports on stones below 0.05cts I think. It doesn't hurt to inquire in case they have something that might fit the bill for you, but don't expect it to be cheap.

Kroshka

 

[LoversKites]

Alright, as I understand it:

Demantoids and tsavorites are too soft (mohs rating of 6.5, 7, respectively), so they will get scratched.

Emeralds have fairly good hardness (7.5-, but they are inclusion filled and prone to fracturing.


What about a near flawless emerald?

Does that buy me enough durability for a small, flush mount stone?

Also, is it within a sane price range?

Hi A_Peterson,

I'm not sure what your budget is, but, if you want small green diamonds in the 1.3-1.9mm size, they might be available at Langerman's Diamonds. I'm not sure of the exact shade you are willing to accept - i.e. bluish green or you only want deep greens, but I did see some while I was there. They won't have GIA reports, but Langerman's says they only deal with natural fancy colored diamonds with exception of blacks. And because the sizes would be so small, GIA would not issue reports on stones below 0.05cts I think. It doesn't hurt to inquire in case they have something that might fit the bill for you, but don't expect it to be cheap.

Kroshka

On their website I have seen a few with the dreaded 'uncertain colour origin', so I'd be wary of that. Especially with greens being so difficult to confirm whether they were naturally coloured or not.

 

[Niel]

I know I know its chartreuse but. Probably in budget its at about $700. On his site (mastercutgems) its listed under the ACEGEE category.


http://www.mastercutgems.com/viewgem.php?gemid=7713&id=29675

 

[pregcurious]

Here is good Pricescope article on green diamonds. As it mentions, it can be difficult to determine if a green diamond gains its green color from natural or man-made radiation. Because of this, green diamonds are often submitted in rough form (before cut) to determine they are natural. Some cut green diamonds include a "natural" or part of the rough to show it is natural in origin.

https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/fancy-color-diamonds/green-diamonds

Kenny's green diamond has a part that shows the original skin of the rough diamond. This was intentionally left unpolished to show its natural origin:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/2-new-fancy-colored-diamonds-blue-green.148569/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/2-new-fancy-colored-diamonds-blue-green.148569/[/URL]

 

[MustangGal]

If you're OK with an irridated diamond, you might be able to find some greens fairly cheap
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Green-Diamond-Oval-15-pt-100-Genuine-Diamond-3-8m-x-2-4mm-SI1-Conflict-Free-/261381082513?pt=Loose_Diamonds&hash=item3cdb86cd91

This one looks interesting too
http://www.ebay.com/itm/emerald-cut-Teal-Blue-Green-Diamond-Genuine-Diamond-0-16ct-for-custom-jewelry-/141348137313?pt=Loose_Diamonds&hash=item20e9016961

 

[pregcurious]

Have you asked the vendor/person you are having make the engagement ring o source green diamonds for you? I have an ering with a yellow diamond halo. ERD was able to source the yellow diamond melee for me. This is a little different as melee are usually sourced by vendors, and in your case the diamonds are larger. Still, a good vendor may have access to more sources. You could contact Leibish, David at DBL, etc.

 

[ephsea]

Another option for you A Peterson: buy numerous green demantoids and use a setting that will allow your solitaire to be replaced easily. This costs less than you might guess http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHING-36pc-SET-4-1MM-9-98tcw-GREEN-DEMANTOID-LOT-NAMIBIA-SEE-VIDEO-/321444979102?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ad79d219e With 35 more in line, chipping one wouldn't be so heart-breaking
I must confess I am in the process of getting together a demantoid ring myself, but mine will be gypsy-set, not for daily wear, and frankly I expect to mess the stone up pretty bad. This is okay with me because I accept that I may have to replace the stone occasionally. We don't want your betrothed crying because she broke "the one". Have you talked with her about what she would/wouldn't want to wear every day, both design-wise and color-wise?