Diamond Destiny after Divorce?

[kenny]

Who gets it?
The woman?
The man?

Usually he paid for it before the wedding, which makes it NOT joint property.
But usually she recieved it before the wedding, which also makes it NOT joint property.

To whom does it belong?

Who usually gets it?
It is just another asset that is itemized and divied up?

 

[Rowan]

IMHO when a diamond is given and the marriage takes place, whatever "contract" that was attatched with the ring has been fullfilled and the ring belongs to her. It should not be considered the property of the husband who purchased it for the engagement or wedding. I''ve personally never heard of the ex-husband getting the ring back after a divorce. It''s not community property, that''s correct; it''s hers.

 

[FacetFire]

Legally, it depends on the state in which you are a resident. An engagement ring is considered a gift conditioned upon marriage. This means that in most states, it goes back to the man if the engagement is broken before marriage occurs (though a few states still say that the person who broke the engagement forgoes any right to the ring). However, the standard after divorce, once again only in most states, is that the engagement ring is kept by the wife. Hope this answers the question...sorry there is no clear cut answer, but it really depends on what state you're in.

Here's s good article on the destiny of the ring after a broken engagement: http://family.findlaw.com/marriage/marriage-more/broken-engagement.html

I'm still trying to find a good article on the destiny of the ring after divorce...

 

[Mara]

the engagement ring is a promise to be married. once you are married, that promise is kept and i tend to think the ring is now the woman''s. wedding ring is something given to represent the marriage. i think i have heard of mostly women keeping the rings (and selling them or resetting them or similar) unless it''s a really nasty kind of thing in which case maybe she doesn''t want them anymore or similar.

 

[asscherisme]

I agree with the others. I have read that the ring is a condition of contract. If the marriage takes place, even if it ends in divorce, it belongs to the woman because she met the contract by marrying. If she breaks up the engagement the ring then belongs to the man and she needs to give it back. BUT if the man breaks off the engagemetn than she gets to keep it.

 

[Madam Bijoux]

Hi! States have ruled differently regarding who keeps the ring if the couple breaks up before marrying. Pennsylvania courts have ruled that the man keeps the ring regardless of who breaks the engagement.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 7/24/2006 2:42:07 PM
Author: Madam Bijoux
Hi! States have ruled differently regarding who keeps the ring if the couple breaks up before marrying. Pennsylvania courts have ruled that the man keeps the ring regardless of who breaks the engagement.

Really?? I didn''t know that.

 

[Madam Bijoux]

Hi, Kaleigh. There have been a few stories over the past few years in The Phila Inquirer about couples who broke an engagement and the courts gave the man the ring, even when he broke it off. One female judge (who is now on the state supreme court) awarded the man the ring after he broke the engagement. I was very surprised when she did that, since she has a 20-carat ring herself.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/103-02142006-612473.html

 

[lili]

Just out of curiosity, does the law have a different set of rules if the e-ring is an heirloom piece?

 

[moremoremore]

ditto- depends on the state. do a google!

and as far as I know, no different rules even if it's an heirloom...

 

[Madam Bijoux]

I''m not sure how or if the fact that the ring is an heirloom piece would affect a judge''s decision. Are any Pennsylvania family law or divorce attorneys on board?

 

[pyramid]

What happens if the ring is an upgrade as it would have been bought by joint monies so does it get divided up like the house, furniture etc.????????????????????????

 

[Allisonfaye]

I don''t really know the answer but sometimes I just wonder what I would do with my jewelry (specifically diamonds) if I got a divorce and I don''t think I would want them. (I would keep the bracelets and earrings but I don''t think I would want my wedding set anymore. I would probably sell it and buy something else.

 

[FacetFire]

Date: 7/24/2006 3:09:21 PM
Author: Pyramid
What happens if the ring is an upgrade as it would have been bought by joint monies so does it get divided up like the house, furniture etc.????????????????????????

That is what I have read...if the ring is purchased after the marriage occurs, it is considered to be marital property and may be divided. If the ring is a heirloom and the engagement ends before marriage, it goes back to the family that it originally belonged to (at least that''s what one of my law school professors once told me a little while back).

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 7/24/2006 11:49:28 AM
Author: Rowan
IMHO when a diamond is given and the marriage takes place, whatever 'contract' that was attatched with the ring has been fullfilled and the ring belongs to her. It should not be considered the property of the husband who purchased it for the engagement or wedding. I've personally never heard of the ex-husband getting the ring back after a divorce. It's not community property, that's correct; it's hers.

Ditto. As for upgrades after marriage being split like communal property...

...that stinks. Hopefully he'd have received some sort of 'communal property' present he wouldn't want to part with either and a 'draw' can be had! Isn't there any ramification to something being a gift, whether before or after marriage??

 

[Sundial]

If I got a divorce I would get to keep all my jewelry as long as I gave up all of the TVs in the house!!!

 

[hlmr]

Date: 7/24/2006 4:53:40 PM
Author: Sundial
If I got a divorce I would get to keep all my jewelry as long as I gave up all of the TVs in the house!!!

Ha Sundial! Sounds fair to me!

I''ve already told my son that after I am gone, he is not allowed to give my ring to his wife until they have been married for at least 10 years and have a stable marriage!!

Of course I know that things could always change down the line, but IMO she''s going to have to show her commitment by putting in the time and earning that bling yanno?!

 

[Rod]

Date: 7/24/2006 5:10:22 PM
Author: hlmr

Date: 7/24/2006 4:53:40 PM
Author: Sundial
If I got a divorce I would get to keep all my jewelry as long as I gave up all of the TVs in the house!!!

Ha Sundial! Sounds fair to me!

I''ve already told my son that after I am gone, he is not allowed to give my ring to his wife until they have been married for at least 10 years and have a stable marriage!!

Of course I know that things could always change down the line, but IMO she''s going to have to show her commitment by putting in the time and earning that bling yanno?!

Smart move. My brother has had 2 wives so far and in each situation, neither lasted more than 7 years. But, my mother believing they were just "darling" showered them both over those years with pieces from her jewelry box and some of them, like my mother''s engagement present from my fathers parents (a solid gold watch with saphires on each side) are now in someone else''s family. Be careful when you give something away to a son or daughter in law. Once you make it a gift, you don''t get it back.

 

[codex57]

Hmm, interesting. I always viewed it as a gift. Not conditioned upon marriage, however, I''m starting to like that concept. Should there be a breakup before the wedding, then the girl should offer to give it back. It''s up to the guy to accept it back or not. If she doesn''t offer, guy shouldn''t legally be able to take it back. It should be a politeness thing. However, I like this "conditioned gift" idea. Not quite as nice, but people can turn evil when there''s a breakup so having legal rules defining it is prolly a good idea.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 7/24/2006 12:01:56 PM
Author: Mara
the engagement ring is a promise to be married. once you are married, that promise is kept and i tend to think the ring is now the woman''s. wedding ring is something given to represent the marriage. i think i have heard of mostly women keeping the rings (and selling them or resetting them or similar) unless it''s a really nasty kind of thing in which case maybe she doesn''t want them anymore or similar.

what about the e-ring upgrades? RHR,etc,etc ??

 

[codex57]

Date: 7/24/2006 7:33:01 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 7/24/2006 12:01:56 PM

Author: Mara

the engagement ring is a promise to be married. once you are married, that promise is kept and i tend to think the ring is now the woman''s. wedding ring is something given to represent the marriage. i think i have heard of mostly women keeping the rings (and selling them or resetting them or similar) unless it''s a really nasty kind of thing in which case maybe she doesn''t want them anymore or similar.

what about the e-ring upgrades? RHR,etc,etc ??

Wouldn''t those fall under community property in the CP states?

 

[CaptAubrey]

The fundamental problem with a "fault-based" approach--i.e., if he breaks it, she keeps it--is that it''s not always so obvious who is at fault. What if he broke it off because she cheated on him? Or, she cheated but he didn''t know and broke it off because he changed his mind? Or, she wanted to break it off, but in order to keep the ring, she instead behaved so horribly toward him that he broke it off. The courts hate getting into these kinds of cases because they are so difficult--the very reason we have no fault divorce laws.

In most community property states (laws vary elsewhere) anything bought with marital assets--including jewelry, even if intended as a gift--is considered a marital asset, absent a written agreement to the contrary. This is to avoid having the parties arguing or trying to defraud each other over whether some valuable possession (diamond, car, boat, plasma TV) was a gift or not come divorce. All of it goes into the joint hopper to be divided.

 

[oshinbreez]

The way I always saw it was the woman got the ring after divorce. If it was a family heirloom from his side, it would be considerate if she gave it back, or kept it to pass on if kids had been born during the marriage. When I got divorced 22 years ago, I didn''t want any part of my ring, wouldn''t sell it because I sure didn''t want anyone else to go through the hell I did, and wouldn''t give it back to him to give to his new GF. So, I burned it in our trash barrel. When he dug it out, I grabbed it from him and crushed it with pliers. LOL. There was no way anyone would ever get it.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 7/24/2006 8:02:13 PM
Author: oshinbreez
The way I always saw it was the woman got the ring after divorce. If it was a family heirloom from his side, it would be considerate if she gave it back, or kept it to pass on if kids had been born during the marriage. When I got divorced 22 years ago, I didn''t want any part of my ring, wouldn''t sell it because I sure didn''t want anyone else to go through the hell I did, and wouldn''t give it back to him to give to his new GF. So, I burned it in our trash barrel. When he dug it out, I grabbed it from him and crushed it with pliers. LOL. There was no way anyone would ever get it.

 

[mia15]

Aaaahhh, my diamond-loving soul can''t handle this thread...

 

[FacetFire]

Upgrades and anything purchased after the marriage (even gifts!) are marital property and subject to division in most states.

 

[diamondlove]

In Community Property states (at least Texas), a gift given during marriage is still considered separate property. Therefore, any jewelry a spouse gives to the other as a GIFT is separate property and not community property. This includes Christmas, bday gifts, RHRings, cars, etc. as long as it is clear that they were gifts.

If a gift was given to both of you as a married couple then of course it is community property or if it is something the two of you buy jointly not as a gift but just as a joint purchase then that is community property as well.

E-rings are premarriage so it's usually the woman's separate property POST marriage. But it is PREMARRIAGE that is more controversial and the prior posts above me have addressed the different arguments that have been argued in court -- 1. condition of marriage (promise to marry and whether that has been fulfilled), 2. who breaks up with whom and so forth before the wedding.

sad topic but I guess a reality to be faced in our world of high divorce rates.

 

[diamondlove]

In Community Property states (at least Texas), a gift given during marriage is still considered separate property. Therefore, any jewelry a spouse gives to the other as a GIFT is separate property and not community property. This includes Christmas, bday gifts, RHRings, cars, etc. as long as it is clear that they were gifts.

If a gift was given to both of you as a married couple then of course it is community property or if it is something the two of you buy jointly not as a gift but just as a joint purchase then that is community property as well.

E-rings are premarriage so it's usually the woman's separate property POST marriage. But it is PREMARRIAGE that is more controversial and the prior posts above me have addressed the different arguments that have been argued in court -- 1. condition of marriage, 2. who breaks up with whom and so forth.

sad topic but I guess a reality to be faced in our world of high divorce rates.

***oops, computer glitch-- how do I delete this repeat? ****

 

[marvel]

Legally, or personally? Personally, I think the ring was a gift and it''s hers to keep. Unless she throws it at you, then you can keep your ring

 

[marvel]

Date: 7/24/2006 8:19:00 PM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 7/24/2006 8:02:13 PM
Author: oshinbreez
The way I always saw it was the woman got the ring after divorce. If it was a family heirloom from his side, it would be considerate if she gave it back, or kept it to pass on if kids had been born during the marriage. When I got divorced 22 years ago, I didn''t want any part of my ring, wouldn''t sell it because I sure didn''t want anyone else to go through the hell I did, and wouldn''t give it back to him to give to his new GF. So, I burned it in our trash barrel. When he dug it out, I grabbed it from him and crushed it with pliers. LOL. There was no way anyone would ever get it.

NOOOOO!!!!