colormyworld
Brilliant_Rock
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Did Virginia Execute an Innocent Man?
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Brilliant_Rock
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colormyworld
Brilliant_Rock
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Rank Amateur
Brilliant_Rock
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colormyworld
Brilliant_Rock
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strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
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FireGoddess
Super_Ideal_Rock
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There was a 24 hour Twilight Zone marathon on New Years Eve/Day...I think it''s a yearly tradition on some tv channel. Anyway, one of the episodes involved exiling a convicted murderer to another planet by himself. While that''s farfetched, it''s an interesting thought. Exile to....somewhere remote. Is it even possible?
My point is, protecting us from these ''monsters'' by putting them somewhere with a roof over their heads and 3 meals a day on our dime....is ridiculous. I''d rather my money go to schools or the poor or SOMEONE more deserving, cuz the guilty people on death row certainly don''t deserve it. If you have no regard for human life...why should I have any regard for yours? Love the sinner, hate the sin? When the sinner and the sin become so intertwined and mangled together that there is no hope for extrication....well then, I think the penalty is justified.
FireGoddess
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Ideal_Rock
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This used to be part of my rather tepid argument in favor of the death penalty when I was in favor of it...(no more)...
I remember reading long ago that someone did the math and figured out that maintenance of death row inmates, and all the legal fees associated with their appeals, etc, were more costly to the state than lifers allowed to ''live'' out their natural lives in the general prison population...
Does anyone know if this is true?
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Brilliant_Rock
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The Old Testament is chock FULL of laws which most Christians don''t follow. Many of them have to do with crime and punishment. To point to a specific passage in the OT and base your personal belief system upon it is trecherous indeed.
Unless you are into poligamy, checking to verify a girl''s virginity, killing animals on an alter, stoning people at the edge of town, thithing (yikes!), stealing your birthright, living to 800 years, and on and on and on.
Unless you are into poligamy, checking to verify a girl''s virginity, killing animals on an alter, stoning people at the edge of town, thithing (yikes!), stealing your birthright, living to 800 years, and on and on and on.
FireGoddess
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I''m not sure about the math you referred to...I haven''t heard the reference. Maybe someone else here has? But it''s not the only reason for me. I have a hard time with suffering of any kind....until I encounter someone who not only has no regard for the suffering of others, but needlessly causes it and delights in it. I remember riding my bike when I was younger and encountered a squirrel who had been run over by a car but was NOT dead. I was so upset...I thought - should I try to put it out of its misery? I couldn''t do it. I cried the whole way home. When my parents came out to see the squirrel, it had died. But I was so traumatized - and that was just a squirrel.
I recall a case on TV when I was in graduate school where several caucasian men tied an african american man to the back of their truck and dragged him down the street to death....for no good reason (could there really ever be a good reason?!) For those kinds of people, I''m sorry, but even the lethal injection is too good for them. They should be sentenced to being dragged down the street themselves. Not so funny now, is it? It depresses me - how little regard humans can have for each other. I fully recognize that it seems funny to write that after I suggest equal punishment to the crime...but to me, those people should hardly qualify as human beings. And that''s not even talking about the repeat offenders. True, life in prison is no cakewalk, but at least you get to breathe, see people who care enough to visit you, and see the sun once in awhile....which is more than any of the victims by their hands got.
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A couple of points:
(personal view): The death penalty as implemented in the USA is generally a horendous process; and rarely I belive fair. I would in fact support a death penalty in certain very restritive cases. There was a previous thread that discussed this issue several:
Let''s talk Tookie (first page) https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/lets-talk-tookie.37300/
The key is really very good proof; which the USA system currently generally does not have (and only a few percent of the current people on death row would probably be elegible for the death penalty under my scenerio).
Concerning the bible and religious beliefs:
The new testament is built upon and an extension of the old testament. It does not "replace" the old testament; and I do not belive that you can understand even half of what the new testament says until you understand the old testament.
Churches by and large are more about power and politics than about religous belief. Only the parts of the bible that are convienient are presented and used. Deliberate misinterpretations, or ommisions, or even outright claims that things no longer apply are common.
It is well known that the 10 commandments (or 11 depending on translation) does not have a statement in it that "thou shall not kill" what it has is "Thou shall not murder" with "murder" understood to be preplanned killing for your personal revenge or gain (i.e. modern day 1st degree murder). Virtually all biblical schollars agree with on that. Killing in self defense, in a just war, in defense of the community, and as punishment for certain crimes is OK. Killing by accident is acknowledeged with a penalty to be paid.
So why do we not see "10 Commandment" posters saying "Thou shall not commit 1st degree murder" Only because it would totaly destroy a political argument that many churches wish to make. To them - the truth does not matter and a deliberate mistatement is all important.
I could go on with several other key examples.
The bigest thing I think anyone could do would be to really study the bible - from front to back - along with the history and issues involved with interpretation and why the current "books" are in the current bible. For example: in the US the "King James" bible is the most common bible - or bibles structured to match it. Yet, unless you have a copy from the 1600''s you are not reading a faithfull copy of the 1611 bible. Later the church of england decided to remove a number of "books" from it. You are reading the "shortened" version of the original King James bible. Many other bibles in the "west" since then have copied the format - and left those books out - because they did not want to challange the status quo and have the established churches denounce their "new" translation.
There are also 2 main philisophical approaches to presenting the bible and bible dictionaries. Trust me - meanings change between these two philosophies. Which one are you used to? Which one is more correct?
As far as the cost of the current death penalty system in the US: Very expensive - and there is credance to support the argument that it would just be cheaper to lock some of them up for life. However, that is just because of how poorly the US handles the situation. It would not have to be that way. Of course, the whole US "criminal punishment system" is also out of whack. Why is it that most people come out of prisons as worse people for society than when they went in. Is it working - or is it making things worse?
Perry
(personal view): The death penalty as implemented in the USA is generally a horendous process; and rarely I belive fair. I would in fact support a death penalty in certain very restritive cases. There was a previous thread that discussed this issue several:
Let''s talk Tookie (first page) https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/lets-talk-tookie.37300/
The key is really very good proof; which the USA system currently generally does not have (and only a few percent of the current people on death row would probably be elegible for the death penalty under my scenerio).
Concerning the bible and religious beliefs:
The new testament is built upon and an extension of the old testament. It does not "replace" the old testament; and I do not belive that you can understand even half of what the new testament says until you understand the old testament.
Churches by and large are more about power and politics than about religous belief. Only the parts of the bible that are convienient are presented and used. Deliberate misinterpretations, or ommisions, or even outright claims that things no longer apply are common.
It is well known that the 10 commandments (or 11 depending on translation) does not have a statement in it that "thou shall not kill" what it has is "Thou shall not murder" with "murder" understood to be preplanned killing for your personal revenge or gain (i.e. modern day 1st degree murder). Virtually all biblical schollars agree with on that. Killing in self defense, in a just war, in defense of the community, and as punishment for certain crimes is OK. Killing by accident is acknowledeged with a penalty to be paid.
So why do we not see "10 Commandment" posters saying "Thou shall not commit 1st degree murder" Only because it would totaly destroy a political argument that many churches wish to make. To them - the truth does not matter and a deliberate mistatement is all important.
I could go on with several other key examples.
The bigest thing I think anyone could do would be to really study the bible - from front to back - along with the history and issues involved with interpretation and why the current "books" are in the current bible. For example: in the US the "King James" bible is the most common bible - or bibles structured to match it. Yet, unless you have a copy from the 1600''s you are not reading a faithfull copy of the 1611 bible. Later the church of england decided to remove a number of "books" from it. You are reading the "shortened" version of the original King James bible. Many other bibles in the "west" since then have copied the format - and left those books out - because they did not want to challange the status quo and have the established churches denounce their "new" translation.
There are also 2 main philisophical approaches to presenting the bible and bible dictionaries. Trust me - meanings change between these two philosophies. Which one are you used to? Which one is more correct?
As far as the cost of the current death penalty system in the US: Very expensive - and there is credance to support the argument that it would just be cheaper to lock some of them up for life. However, that is just because of how poorly the US handles the situation. It would not have to be that way. Of course, the whole US "criminal punishment system" is also out of whack. Why is it that most people come out of prisons as worse people for society than when they went in. Is it working - or is it making things worse?
Perry
I think the death penalty needs to be handled very delicately and not used across the board. I also feel that on a case per case basis, with all of the specific details known and re-examined, it needs to be decided if appropriate by those who are well trained to evaluate these issues. In all frankness, no one man will ever be able to know 100% if a given criminal of murder is deserving of the death penalty. That is for God to decide, but as long as there are murders occurring and judges and juries to decide their fate, there has to be this option. Those families of loved ones definitely do not have the same consideration as these murderers do. So much money is spent to defend them, research their cases, check out their histories, yada, yada...not to mention, house them in overpopulated prisons and feed them for life if they escape the death penalty. Please realize here as you read this, I am NOT advocating the death penalty, HOWEVER, I am also not saying that you need to abolish it.
Something has to be done. Whether any of us in this country or this forum feel at ease with those decisions or not is honestly not our decision. In the end, God will decide. And I would hate to be a person guilty of murder who has to face God.
Some people call themselves "Christian" and yet cannot live as Christ did for long cuz its hard. We need to be careful how we make claims that we cannot fully live up to in all respects. For me religion and spirituality is personal and private and I try my best to not insult others deliberately and to respect their views, however differing than my own. Just a reminder though, being a Christian does not advocate keeping all murderers alive. Some can be rehabilitated, others simply cannot. It''s highy complex and not a Christian issue, sorry...
Political issues like this are always sticky, hot issues cuz there is not just one correct answer that all will agree with...I put my faith in God...not man cuz man ALWAYS screws up...
Just my add''l 2 cents...Again, not wanting to insult anyone else''s views, just stating my core beliefs...
Something has to be done. Whether any of us in this country or this forum feel at ease with those decisions or not is honestly not our decision. In the end, God will decide. And I would hate to be a person guilty of murder who has to face God.
Some people call themselves "Christian" and yet cannot live as Christ did for long cuz its hard. We need to be careful how we make claims that we cannot fully live up to in all respects. For me religion and spirituality is personal and private and I try my best to not insult others deliberately and to respect their views, however differing than my own. Just a reminder though, being a Christian does not advocate keeping all murderers alive. Some can be rehabilitated, others simply cannot. It''s highy complex and not a Christian issue, sorry...
Political issues like this are always sticky, hot issues cuz there is not just one correct answer that all will agree with...I put my faith in God...not man cuz man ALWAYS screws up...
Just my add''l 2 cents...Again, not wanting to insult anyone else''s views, just stating my core beliefs...
Perry,
You make a lot of excellent points. I especially feel an alignment with you about what you said about churchs and the power and politics therein. I 100% agree. For me, my faith is based on God, my own prayers and what comes out of those prayers and my own spirituality...not an organized religion per se. I also agree on what you said about murder that occurs as a result of self defense. I support your view on that because it makes sense and is obvious to me and what I feel God would say as well. Even a killing that occurs by way of an accident still has a debt to be paid. Period.
I agree that the US criminal system leaves alot to be desired and is seriously ''whacked.'' Depending on the state, I found in my learning about this, a majority of the prisons are so badly overpopulated that even if a given criminal didn''t get the death penalty, they stand an increased risk of dying in prison of murder by fellow inmates, disease-which runs rampant, suicide, etc. On a cable show a while back, a criminal was being interviewed--I forget for what--and he was a convicted felon for murder. He said that his life in the prison he was in was so low, demeaning and dangerous, that he now wished he did get the death penalty so that it would just be overwith. Now, during the viewing of this segment, I quickly shifted gears and said to myself that he is suffering more by staying alive in his circumstances than the easy way out; death.
So, as I have already said, there is alot of views on this sensitive issue that are neither right 100% or wrong 100%...
I appreciated you sharing your educated and honest comments on this...
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In the case of the Catholic Church, which I believe is your church, both Testaments are used because the Church interprets them and throws out much of what the Old Testament appears to advocate (see R/A's list for some examples) for reasons which it describes in its writings. After all, how can one believe both that one takes "a life for a life" and Jesus' teaching to turn the other cheek? Somehow these two ideas must be reconciled!
It is the Catholic Church which decides dogma. People are not encouraged to interpret the Bible themselves or literally.
By the way, I agree with what you said elsewhere about the Catholic Church being consistent. Church scholars labor over the smallest questions and dissect everything, whether or not most Catholics are aware of these questions and the debate.
I cannot believe in transubstantiation, that the priest, during mass, changes the wine and wafer into the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ, so Catholicism is out for me. Nonetheless, I respect the logical consistency of the Catholic Church.
Deborah
I was raised a Catholic. I am not certain that I would consider myself one currently. I don''t believe in much of the dogma - and yes, you are correct that hours are spent (much like our supreme court) arguing points. And, to make my head spin further, I am Jewish by birth.
I agree about the organized religion can suffocate spiritually. But, it''s not going away and one of the few venues that forms a community in which to worship.
That being said, my stance on the death penalty doesn''t have much to do with my religion/spirituality. I believe, on the rare occassion, that someone has to PERMANENTLY be removed from society. Is it playing God? No, I think it is the way to perpetuate life.
I agree about the organized religion can suffocate spiritually. But, it''s not going away and one of the few venues that forms a community in which to worship.
That being said, my stance on the death penalty doesn''t have much to do with my religion/spirituality. I believe, on the rare occassion, that someone has to PERMANENTLY be removed from society. Is it playing God? No, I think it is the way to perpetuate life.
mrssalvo
Super_Ideal_Rock
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I was just watching the news where 2 men were arrested after killing 7 people. One guy apparently killed his wife 5 days after being released from a 10 year prison term in november. New year''s day they randomly entered a house killing all 4 family members 2 which were children ages 9 and 4 by slitting their throats. A women that in someway with them was murdered my them recently along with her parents. Life in prison would be too kind a punishment for me. here''s the link to the story. I agree with you Firegoddess..
larussel03
Brilliant_Rock
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Oh dear God. This happened in my town - in the neighborhood where I once lived. This is not some privledged neighborhood. It''s a city neighborhood with regular hard working folk w/ much diversity. The shop the women owned was a delight. Everyone who knew the family loved them. They radiated warmth.
Having followed the story, most people close to the investigation was certain the family knew the killers because of the brutality and personal act of the crime. The realization that this was a random act of violence (predicated by the fact that the Mom left her door unlocked and was willing to help a stranger) has left the city stunned - me included.
To beat a child 4 year old and 9 year old senseless & then to slit their little throats is beyond my comprehension of someone who needs to be in our society. It is now that I believe in the death penalty more than ever. It is not for vengence. It is not for selfish reasons
BTW, just for clarification - the 3 murdered in the second murder indictment included a 25ish year old women who is implicated in the New Years Day murder of the Harvey's. The word is that she went to live with her mother & step father shortly after New Years day & was going to talk to the police. Not only did they have to kill her - they killed her parents in cold blood as well.
FireGoddess
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I just heard about this case, and it is a perfect example of what I meant in my post. How can you randomly kill ANYONE in cold blood....and little children....and brutally on top of it??? Right after getting out from jail? Death row should be in their future.
And about Australia...is that really true? I never heard this and would be interested to find out.
And about Australia...is that really true? I never heard this and would be interested to find out.
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Brilliant_Rock
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