Discouraging Talk

[krispi]

I haven''t posted a lot about my situation on here because I thought I had a pretty good grasp on it, and because I knew I wasn''t as far along as most of you. My BF and I have been dating for a year and 9 months - not a terribly long time, but a decent amount. We''re both in the early 30''s age range, so I do think that tends to accelerate some relationship issues. We''ve had conversations before where I''ve told him that one of my goals in life is to be married and have a family, and that''s non-negotiable. He has said before that those are things that he wants, and could want with me, but wasn''t sure yet. He does take steps in relationships much more slowly than I do, so I''ve tried to be understanding of his need for time and give it a bit longer.

All seemed to be well and good until a conversation we had this weekend. The context wasn''t necessarily about marriage - we were discussing some things we''ve been working on in our relationship, but there were some other things he said that now have me wondering. Actually, the part of the conversation about the issue I wanted us to work on went pretty well - we both agreed we wanted to improve it and what steps we were going to take. That part by itself was fairly encouraging.

But there were some other things he said that kind of have my mind reeling at this point. I''ve always known that a major difference between us is that I''m a "feeler" and he''s a "thinker", and that affects how we approach relationships. I know that he is slow and careful to make relationship decisions, where I''m more of a go-with-my-gut type of person. I''ve tried all along to be very understanding of that difference, but the things he said are starting to sound like more than being careful and cautious to me. For example, I said that I wanted to feel like our relationship was contstantly progressing. I have a goal in mind (a forever kind of commitment) and I want to be in a relationship that I feel is moving toward that goal. He said that his view was different - that a relationship didn''t need to progress on a certain track in order to be good - that we could instead enjoy what we have and being together. One thing that really bugs me is that he said that he''s not head-over-heels about me, and has in fact never felt that way about anyone. I know he loves me and cares about me and does nice things for me, etc, but on some level I still want someone who''s crazy about me. I think he believes he''s not capable of that level of feeling. He aslo said that he doesn''t think that I should be in a rush to settle down - that I''ve got plenty of time (although my biological clock is getting louder by the day). Basically, he''s happy with the way things are now and isn''t in any kind of hurry to change things. He said that he couldn''t be any more committed to me - that he''s 110% committed to our relationship, and I don''t doubt that at all, but I still want long term and not just right now. He also said that he''s hesitant to make any decisions about the future before he knows that he will have the resources to achieve them. Basically, he''s worried that he''ll never have enough money to raise a family. I thought that shouldn''t change the inner desire if you''ve found the right person, but he said he''s afraid to make any promises because he doesn''t want to let anyone down. I told him that it would be easier if I knew he wanted to spend the rest of his life with me but just needed to wait until x, y, and z are in place, but at this point he''s not certain that he wants it to be me, and that''s difficult for me to deal with.

So, is this just a case of someone who needs more time to figure out what they want? He did say that he didn''t feel that we know each other well enough to make that kind of decision yet. Or is this a case where no matter how patient I try to be, I''ll always be waiting? Like I said, his willingness to talk and work on the other issue were very encouraging, but his views on the future really have me wondering.

Lastly, I know there''s a tendency around here to advise people to leave. While I have wondered if that would be the right thing to do, I''m not at that point yet, so please take that into consideration. I really do care for him and love him a lot, and I believe the same is true in return. I''m just trying to figure out our differences and whether or not we''ll be able to make this work in the long run. It breaks my heart to pose this question, but could this be one of those instances where love might not be enough?

 

[smiles]

hey!!
Before I respond to your post I want to just let you know that I also don''t post toooo often, also mostly because I am not in the place yet where I know a proposal will be any time in the near future but i REALLY applaud you for having the guts to tell us more about you and your situation.

In response to the very end of your post: "could this be one of those instances where love might not be enough?" I don''t think love is ever enough. I think love and friendship defintely are the foundation but there is so much more that goes into making a relationship work. So I don''t know whether your guy will be your forever but I would encourage you to basically tell him what you told us. I think the best thing you can do to find out is agree to have an honesty policy so you can feel safe enough to bring this up with him and know that he will really be honest with you as opposed to just saying what you want to hear without you getting upset with him. He should know your concerns. (sorry this was so long)

 

[fieryred33143]

I am not one to suggest that someone leave a relationship especially through a forum because I know its hard to describe a relationship in a single post.

That said, these are my thoughts:

He may not be “head over heels” for you because maybe his definition of head over heels is slightly different than what he thinks your definition is. I can tell you that personally, when I hear “head over heels” I think of that crazy, can’t breath without him/her, my life would just end if he/she ever left me, kind of love. And to be honest, that’s not the kind of love that I would ever want to feel for someone or want someone to feel for me. That’s way too dependent and needy for my taste. Again, that’s my personal definition of it. Yours may be different and his may differ from both of ours. Just a thought.

Another is that as you said he’s a slow developer so his comment on wanting to wait until he has enough money to raise a family sounds about right to me. My boyfriend was VERY slow in our relationship (I didn’t meet mom and dad until 2 years after we started dating). If he had been someone that takes relationship development quickly, we would have been married and on to baby #2 years ago. But he’s not like that and that is something that I have accepted and appreciate. Others would drive themselves insane.

My last thought, or rather suggestion, is to a: take the Myers-Brigg personality test and b: get a book written by Myers-Brigg on the subject of the different personality types. I can’t suggest one in particular. I studied psychology for years and I can’t tell you how helpful and precise that exam is on the different personality types and how to communicate/deal with.

Hang in there girl

 

[krispi]

Smiles and Fiery, thanks so much for your posts! I was so worried I''d be raked over the coals, because it seems like the consistent advice here is to leave. (That''s actually what my BFF has encouraged me to do, but I think her view might be skewed because she just got divorced.)


Smiles, I do think we''ve been pretty honest with each other. I think he''s hurt sometimes because he knows I''d like more, and he has a tendency to feel inadequate. But he is who he is, and I respect him for not compromising that. I just hope our differences aren''t insurmountable.


Fiery, thanks for the reminder that it''s not always all about the passion. That was very encouraging. He''s really good to me in a lot of other ways. We spent July 4th at my family''s cabin in the mountains. Sunday morning, he woke up extra early to prepare a full breakfast for everyone - french toast, hashbrowns, eggs, bacon, the works! He was at it for several hours. I didn''t see it at the time, but he explained that was a way for him to demonstrate his love.

I actually have studied the Myers-Briggs quite a bit as well. I''m and ENFJ, and he''s an ISTJ. I think that''s where a lot of our differnces come from. I''m off the charts on the E and the F, and more in the middle on the N and the J. He also took a test once in grad school that said his emotional expression was pretty much the lowest possible level. His sister has also confided to me that when they were growing up, affection wasn''t expressed openly in their family. It''s something she''s had to work on changing with her kids and has just recently realized in therapy with her husband. We''ve been trying to reconcile these differences pretty much our entire relationship, and sometimes we''re more successful than others. (This was actually the issue we started off discussing the other night - he agreed to read a book on how to speak my love language and try some of its suggestions.)

I''m hoping the case is that he''s just slower to make these kinds of decisions. It''s kind of odd - I was introduced to the family full-force within 2 months, we attend all functions together, give joint presents for all ocassions, etc. But it took him 11 months to tell me that he loved me. Isn''t it interesting what things come easily to some people but not to others? I don''t know how you waited 2 years - you definitely have a lot more patience than I do!

 

[purrfectpear]

I think you already know where the relationship stands today.

He loves having you around. He''s committed to dating you to the exclusion of others.

That''s all you''re going to get until HE decides he might want more. It might change in the future and then again, it might not.

It doesn''t bode well when a guy admits he''s not head over heels in love with you. Men usually keep that to themselves. Points to him for being honest. I think he put the ball in your court. All he owes is honesty. Then you can make decisions based on fact not hopes or expectations.

 

[fieryred33143]

I''m an ISTJ as well so that''s probably why his comment on not being "head over heels" didn''t surprise me. I''ve been told before by my family that I''m very cold because I''m very logical and put very little emotion to my decisions. I''ve since then learned to open up a bit more although I''m still guided very much by logic.

Hang in there. It sounds tough to deal with not knowing how another person is feeling about the relationship. I definitely agree that you owe it to yourself to talk more about the issue and make sure you guys are on the same page.

 

[dreaming of the day]

Date: 7/14/2008 12:04:49 PM
Author: krispi
Smiles and Fiery, thanks so much for your posts! I was so worried I'd be raked over the coals, because it seems like the consistent advice here is to leave. (That's actually what my BFF has encouraged me to do, but I think her view might be skewed because she just got divorced.)


Smiles, I do think we've been pretty honest with each other. I think he's hurt sometimes because he knows I'd like more, and he has a tendency to feel inadequate. But he is who he is, and I respect him for not compromising that. I just hope our differences aren't insurmountable.


Fiery, thanks for the reminder that it's not always all about the passion. That was very encouraging. He's really good to me in a lot of other ways. We spent July 4th at my family's cabin in the mountains. Sunday morning, he woke up extra early to prepare a full breakfast for everyone - french toast, hashbrowns, eggs, bacon, the works! He was at it for several hours. I didn't see it at the time, but he explained that was a way for him to demonstrate his love.

I actually have studied the Myers-Briggs quite a bit as well. I'm and ENFJ, and he's an ISTJ. I think that's where a lot of our differnces come from. I'm off the charts on the E and the F, and more in the middle on the N and the J. He also took a test once in grad school that said his emotional expression was pretty much the lowest possible level. His sister has also confided to me that when they were growing up, affection wasn't expressed openly in their family. It's something she's had to work on changing with her kids and has just recently realized in therapy with her husband. We've been trying to reconcile these differences pretty much our entire relationship, and sometimes we're more successful than others. (This was actually the issue we started off discussing the other night - he agreed to read a book on how to speak my love language and try some of its suggestions.)

I'm hoping the case is that he's just slower to make these kinds of decisions. It's kind of odd - I was introduced to the family full-force within 2 months, we attend all functions together, give joint presents for all ocassions, etc. But it took him 11 months to tell me that he loved me. Isn't it interesting what things come easily to some people but not to others? I don't know how you waited 2 years - you definitely have a lot more patience than I do!

Are you talking about "The Five Love Languages"? I just started reading that book, and the funny thing is that I was going to suggest it to you. In regards to your post I do beleive patience is going to be a virtue here! He sounds like he is committed to you, but I think it would be very hard to swalllow that in almost 2 years of a relationship he is not sure you are the one. I would have a hard time with that, especially with you wanting to start a family in the next few years. I would hang in for a little while longer, but if in the next year he still doesn't know I would really evaluate that. If progression is important to you now, it will always be important to you.

 

[Sha]

Your BF seems to have a slow-moving style when it comes to relationships. 11 months to say I love you? Wow. I think that''s definitely longer than most. With that kind of style, my concern is that you might be waiting for a while before he feels absoutely ready to commit. I could imagine that that would frustrate you, though, since you know that you want a long-term future with him, and you''re not getting any younger to boot.......

It would be nice if you had some kind of timeline for him being ready, so you know how long you might be waiting, but that in itself might be difficult to pin down too. AFter all, it''s not like he just has to his financial ducks in a row and then be ready.... it seems like he''s not sure that his feelings are strong enough to take the next step into marriage. ? And who knows when those feelings will kick in, if they ever will? Maybe he''s so much of a thinker that he''s not capable of being ''head over heels'' with someone? I don''t know..... but I think his statement that he''s not head over heels with you would concern me. Not only is it disappointing that his feelings are not as strong as you may have hoped, but it might also affect his willingness to commit to you in the future..... Hopefully not. You can''t necessarily put a timeline on emotions so it''s really difficult to estimate when he might feel ready to make the next step. That''s my concern - that you might be waiting around for a long time, and he may never get to that point.

 

[krispi]

Wow! You guys are all so insightful. Thanks so much for all the responses.

Purrfectpear - Yes, one of the things I really admire about him is his honesty. He''s never pretended to be anything other than what he is or put up any kind of front. After dealing with my ex-husband (who pretended for almost 8 years) I especially appreciate that. I know where he stands and now have the more difficult task of figuring out what I think/feel about it.

Fiery - Interesting that you''re an ISTJ as well. The fact that you don''t think that''s a huge red flag does help. I wish I knew more people with that type who I could consult when I''m trying to figure him out.

Dreaming - Yes, that''s the book! I read it shortly before we started dating. My primary languages are verbal affirmations and physical touch. His is acts of service. That, coupled with his low emotional expression overall has been a hurdle for us, but he did promise to read the book. He didn''t understand why I needed to hear that he loved me and couldn''t see it in the things that he does for me. I thought the book could explain it way better than I ever could. And yes, progression is important to me, or at least knowing what I''m waiting for. I don''t believe that''s something I can totally put out of my mind.

Sha - I think you''ve probably summed up my thoughts better than I did. I know all of his family wants him to just commit to me already, and I want it too, but he''s got to come around to it on his own. I see how great it could be - we each get along with each other''s families, we have similar religious beliefs, very similar senses of humor (which is impressive because we''re both so wacky), similar upbringings. We do have some differences, but we really fit well toghether except for this... but this is a big one. He''s definitely worth waiting for, but at the same time I don''t want to wait around for nothing.



I went out of the building for lunch, and I think that helped me clear my head a little. One thing I''ve been thinking about a lot is that he said he doesn''t feel we know each other well enough to make that kind of decision yet. I was a bit surprised by that at first (we''ve spent a lot of time together with each other and our families), but perhaps that''s something we could work on. We do a good job of talking about what''s going on in each other''s lives on a daily basis, but maybe we need to have deeper conversation more often - get to know each other more on an intellectual or philisophical level? Like, we know what''s going on with each other because we talk every day, but maybe we need to talk more about the why''s and the motivations behind things? At least that''s something concrete that I can focus on.

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

I can''t recommend leaving or staying at this point, just some things for you to consider.

Would you be happier with someone who was head over heels for you?
As "cold" as he is, do you want him to be the father of your children?
Would you rather have him and no family or a family with someone else?

You really might consider therapy for the two of you. I am 100% a thinker, not a feeler, logical, grounded, etc which is why my FI always knew where we were at. He should be able to weigh the pros and cons now and know where you stand, its what we do. The fact that he can''t tells me something is holding him back and therapy might be able to work past it. I do think you will be waiting a long time as it currently stands if you don''t take steps to work with him.

I don''t doubt he loves you or wants to be with you, just that the timescale might be longer than you are willing to wait on.

 

[HollyS]

No, I don''t think you need to leave the relationship. As you said, it has been only a little over a year and a half. I''m now married to a man who would have said the exact same things to me at that stage as your guy said to you.

You said it yourself: women feel and men think. He may never be ''head over heels'' for you; it does not mean that he won''t love you. He''s being cautious because he needs to be. For himself. It doesn''t really have anything to do with you personally. Chances are, he would be exactly the same if he were dating someone else. He''s not ready for that level of commitment at this stage. Bottom line.

I do not believe his attitude or commitment level is a HUGE PROBLEM IN CAPITAL LETTERS. I think it is just too soon for the "will you want to marry me" or "when we are married" discussions.

And, no offense to anyone listening to the biological clock tick, but wanting children is NOT a reason for marrying. You marry someone because they are the person you want to spend the rest of your life with. Children are a wonderful added bonus; not a deal breaker. I have personal experience in this area; I was only 35 when I met my DH; we did not get married because we heard ''tick-tock''. We waited until we were both ready for marriage.

 

[surfgirl]

krispi, just as a caveat, people might say things here you dont really want to hear, but I think it's all said with a caring person behind it...

That said, I partially agree with perrfectpear, he's said what he feels and thinks and it seems like he's being very honest with you. He has no desire - right now - to consider marriage or children and just wants to enjoy your relationship "in the moment". There are a lot of men who are afiiad/wary/slow to commit, I know, I married one! But once they do commit, it's very deep and for life. Then again, he might simply not feel you're the one because he's not feeling fireworks? I know that's not what you want to hear, but it's something to keep reflecting on because you dont want to be 10 years down this same road and miserable because you hoped he'd change. Also, you say you're a feeler and he's a thinker...you're describing just about every male/female relationship! That's the big disconnect between the sexes, right there. How you bridge that gap is what counts, and it's not obvious to most, and many of us need professional help to find our footing and learn to communication more effectively since we do think/feel differently.

Personally, I think you haven't been together that long (even if you're in your early 30s) and I applaud your guy for not blabbering "I love you" quickly, it means something to him and the fact that he's told you he loves you means something. So, you have a decision to make here.

1. You can let it go and enjoy being with him and try to let go of the constant thought of engagement and marriage. In fact, I'd stop calling myself a LIW as a first step. Really really let it go and see where it takes you as a couple.

or

2. See if your guy will go to some couples counseling to sort out his hesitation, if you think he'll go for it. I wouldn't put too much into a differing MB personality test, no offense (I found taking that quite interesting, but I wouldn't bet my relationship on it), opposites DO attract so being very different isn't always a bad or negative thing. If you do this, I'd consider going to individual counseling as well, to manage your own feelings as well so you dont push him too far and thus, potentially push him away with your growing desire to be married.

or

3. Take a break and see how you both really feel without daily contact in each others lives...though I'd do this after either 1 or 2..

You are the only one who can decide here. But I do think your post speaks volumes about many women here who consider themselves LIWs, but whose men probably would be quite surprised to find that they consider themselves so. That said, I dont think it's the end of the world...but you DO want to figure out what YOUR ultimate limits are because if you want kids, you have to be more concrete about finding a life partner. Dont freak yet, get some counseling to help ground you and then figure out your next move...

Date: 7/14/2008 1:40:24 PM
Author: HollyS
And, no offense to anyone listening to the biological clock tick, but wanting children is NOT a reason for marrying. You marry someone because they are the person you want to spend the rest of your life with. Children are a wonderful added bonus; not a deal breaker. I have personal experience in this area; I was only 35 when I met my DH; we did not get married because we heard 'tick-tock'. We waited until we were both ready for marriage.

Holly, excellent point...

 

[HollyS]

Sha: I didn't get an "I love you" from my DH in the first TWO years of our relationship. That's no barometer. As for fireworks, he's told me he wasn't even sure he really 'liked' me for the first few months we dated! I was not what he had been looking for; I was not what he wanted then; he was positive that we would not last. Really. Now he's the happiest married man on the planet. Absolutely loves being married, and adores me. Things change.

Everyone knows . . . they have intuition, if they will just listen to it . . . what they need to stay in a relationship. Everyone can sense whether or not they will get what they need in their current relationship. Emotions need to take a back seat while they listen to what their intuition is telling them.

Only the OP knows whether this guy is worth the wait.

 

[fieryred33143]

Date: 7/14/2008 1:49:31 PM
Author: HollyS
Sha: I didn''t get an ''I love you'' from my DH in the first TWO years of our relationship. That''s no barometer.

Everyone knows . . . they have intuition, if they will just listen to it . . . what they need to stay in a relationship. Everyone can sense whether or not they will get what they need in their current relationship. Emotions need to take a back seat while they listen to what their intuition is telling them.

Only the OP knows whether this guy is worth the wait.

Neither did I. He told me "I love you" about one month before he finally decided to introduce me to his family...which was 2 years into our relationship.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

On top of what everybody else has said, I just wanted to say "bravo" for allowing him to be completely honest with you without shutting down or becoming overly emotional. I think that it''s very common for men to want to discuss their fears and feelings in a way that is rational and honest, but as soon as we become emotional about it, they shut down because they don''t want for us to feel hurt. The fact that he can talk with you about these things without fearing your reaction is beneficial for both of you--not only does it allow him to be honest, but it allows you to see the relationship without any filters (and make your own decisions about what you want).

I realize that some of the things he said were not what you wanted to hear, but they are what we all struggle with in REAL relationships. Nobody has it all figured out, but the fact that you two are willing to work at it is key.

I certainly don''t think leaving is an answer for you--it would do more damage than good. Leaving is never a good solution for people who aren''t ready to, and I think you guys stilll have a lot to discuss and figure out.

 

[orangemonster]

Hi - I can give the perspective of someone who is now married and went through all the angst and pressure of ''does he or doesn''t he? will he or won''t he?'' and I can honestly say if it''s right it''s right. You should be with someone who can''t imagine their life without you. You should not have to feel you are chasing someone... you should be with someone who is insane for you... I think you answered your own question: "I still want someone who''s crazy about me."

Don''t settle for less. I will give you the same advice I gave my nieces... as long as you are with Mr. OK, you will never meet Mr. Right.

I give you immense credit for trying to have honest conversations with him and he is not a bad person for telling you how he feels. Also generally women are ''feelers'' and men are ''thinkers'' - I believe this is a GOOD thing ''cuz we balance each other out!

JMHO - hope I haven''t come across as too harsh but you need to give yourself more credit and demand more for yourself to make YOU happy! GOOD LUCK!

 

[Bia]

I think you're doing the right thing--you're waiting to see how things progress...less than two years really isn't all that long.

I can see how his comment about never feeling head-over-heels for you (or anyone) would bother you, it would bother me too. Here's the thing: each of us has our faults. There are things about my BF that drive me crazy and always will--they will likely never change either. Although, I know I want him to be my husband because the things I don't like do not outweigh the things I do like. We want many of the same things in life. Love has never been our problem but personality-wise, we couldn't be more different.

If your BF has the characteristics you need in a man, but just isn't ready quite yet, then hang in there. If you need a man that will tell you he is head-over-heels for you, KNOWS that he wants children, and all the other things you mentioned, then you might have to come to the realization that he may never be that man for you.

I wish my BF was more like me, it would be so much easier. I had no choice but to recognize that he will never be the "planner" type--he's much more the procrastinator w/ a limited attention span type--that most times, I have to take it upon myself to get things done. However, those things mean less to me than the fact that I know he wants children with me, that he puts my best interest first, that he's financially very responsible, he's very affectionate, trustworthy and will be an amazing father. I wouldn't want to settle for someone just because I love him and I wouldn't want someone to settle for me (would you?). Although love is one of the key elements, there are other elements that are equally important to sustain a relationship: commitment, trust, loyalty, affection (emotional and sexual compatibility), children, financial stability (all these things would have been a deal breaker for me)...etc., etc....

Use your time to decide if he fulfills YOUR requirements for a husband. If he doesn't, at some point you need to ask yourself if it makes sense to move on.

Good luck.

 

[krispi]

Wow! A ton of responses. Thanks again for all your insight. Please know that I have read each one and considered your comments thoughtfully. It''s amazing - I''m an English major and consider myself to be a pretty good writer. Even so, it''s difficult to sum up something so emotional and personal on an internet post. (Plus, I''m trying not to give you my entire life story...)


Brazen Irish Hussy - (Love the name, by the way! I''m of Irish descent as well, although it''s many years back.) You posed some great questions for thought.

1. Would you be happier with someone who was head over heels for you?
Honestly, I''m not sure. This is part of what I''m trying to figure out. I''ve had the passionate promises of forever, you''re the best thing that ever happened to me, etc before. In the moment, I was estatic. However, in the end, they all fell apart. Turns out that each of them had their own issues that made them a little too eager, and that could only last for a while. That''s why this relationship was kind of refreshing at first - I was thinking that maybe it made more sense to be practical and that perhaps I wouldn''t get hurt again if I took my time. Every few months though, I tend to get a longing to hear those kinds of things from him. I do know that I get fluttery, butterfly in the tummy feelings about him.

2. As "cold" as he is, do you want him to be the father of your children?
He has 2 nephews who are 6 and 9, and he is awesome with them. He might not be overly cuddly or anything, but he is great to his nephews. Again, his way of demonstrating affection is to do things - play baseball with them in the backyard, pick them up and take them to Chucky Cheese, or just goof around the house. I actually find it really endearing - when their parents around, he''s just their goofy fun uncle, but when they''re left in his care, he gets really fatherly - even disciplinarian when he needs to. (Try having 2 boys in the car for a long drive - it can test anyone''s patience...) I actually thought he handled them in a very mature way. That said, his sister did tell me that she had to consciously work on telling her kids she loved them more often as a result of how she grew up. I do realize that''s something he would face as well.

3. Would you rather have him and no family or a family with someone else?
If it came down to those 2 options, I''d have to go with a family with someone else. I don''t think I can be happy in life without a family, and I have to be true to myself above all else.


Holly - You''re absolutely right - he wouldn''t be able to give that level of comittment to anyone right now. He''s working 2 jobs to try to pay off his grad school debt, and I know that''s hanging over his head. I don''t expect him to do anything drastic in the near future. It would be nice if he knew what he wanted long term, though. But I''m more of a long term planner than he is. I also agree that wanting children isn''t the right reason to get married. It is, however one reason that marriage is important to me and that I can''t just be together forever.


Surfgirl - I am open to hearing what other people think, especially since I haven''t completely figured it out for myself. I do know that I''m not a LIW at this point. I haven''t added myself to the list or anything because I know a proposal isn''t imminent. I found this board when researching having some existing jewerly reset and thought this might be a good place to post about this situation as well.

You do make a good point, though, about being able to let go and enjoy being with him. That''s what he thinks too, and most of the time I''m able to do that. I''m open to counseling, as I have really benefitted from it in the past, but I think he''s a little hesitant about going together. (He''s also gone on his own in the past, so it''s not that he''s totally opposed - just prefers to go individually.) We are going to first attempt to work on it using the books and other tools we''ve found. If that doesn''t help, I''m open to seeing where he stands on the counseling. You are correct that I need to figure out what my limits are. That''s what I''ve been wondering myself. I know no one else can say for me, so it''s something I''ll need to work out. I know that I don''t want to try option 3 right now. I''d prefer to work on it first. And yes, I''m trying to figure out if he''s someone who is slow to commit or if he''s just not ever going to feel it - that''s pretty much what led me to this post.


NEL - Thanks for the encouragement! I am familiar with your experience, so that means a lot. And again, I do really appreciate his honesty. I''d much rather him tell me than keep it inside - been there, done that.


Orangemonster - Trust me, I tell myself the same things sometimes. I was especially doing that this morning. But then sometimes I wonder if everyone isn''t the same and perhpas different people take different paths to get to the same place? There''s so much conflicting info out there, it can be overwhelming sometimes.

 

[swingirl]

How badly do you want children? If you really are set on it, you will not change. By the time anyone is in their early 30''s they''ve had many years to think about how they see themselves in their 30''s, 40''s, 50''s and beyond.

If children and marriage aren''t in the picture, I can''t see that changing, especially if one hasn''t found someone they are head-over-heals for. Children need parents who are 100% into it.

If you are happy with a boyfriend who is comfortable with the way things are now and is in no rush to move forward, then be patient and things might change. He might fall in love with you and decide you are the one.

1 1/2 years is an adequate amount of time to decide whether a person is marriage material or not. It seems like your boyfriend likes your companionship, but may not be interested in the commitment of marriage and children. If it were me I would take a break. You haven''t said whether or not you live together but that can really stall any forward movement if the relationship gets comfortable and stagnant.

 

[peridot83]

I think the question for you is what is your time table? What I got from your post is your guy isn''t ready to think of you as his life partner, but he enjoys being in the relationship and doesn''t want it to end.

How long are you willing to wait to get there? If you feel no urgency to get married in the next few years, then I agree with what surfgirl and others said, let it go and enjoy the relationship.

But if you want to get married by x date or have kids by y date, I think it''s time to evaluate whether you want to stick around. Almost two years is long enough to get a pulse check on the relationship; if he isn''t in the financial position he wants to be in, doesn''t feel like he''s in an "adult" enough position to get married, and YOU ARE...this relationship might just end up being a mismatch in timing.

 

[krispi]

Thanks for all of you who have reassured me that we haven''t been together all that long. With my friends and family (and his too) constantly asking me when we''re finally going to get married, it can throw my perspective a bit out of whack - especially when I wonder the same thing. Seriously - even his nephews say they really hope he''ll marry me and ask when they''re going to get cousins!!


Bia - He does have a lot of qualities that I''ve always wanted/needed in a guy but found difficult to come by. The one quality where I struggle (affectionate/ready to plan long term) is never one I''ve had to worry about before - the others all gave me those things pretty early on. That''s part of what makes it so difficult - maybe that''s part of what was wrong before, and he really is what I need to balance me out? Those are the kinds of things I''m contantly questioning and weighing.

Swingirl - He does say that marriage and kids are things he wants eventually but isn''t on any kind of timetable and doesn''t feel like he has to rush them before he''s ready. I''m trying to decide if I''m okay with being patient and if so, for how long. If I knew what I was waiting for, then I''d say that he absolutely was worth the wait. Is he worth the uncertainty - I''m not really sure yet.

 

[absolut_blonde]

I think you've gotten a lot of good feedback from everyone so far. But I'll throw in my 2 cents as well.

I have to disagree with the poster that said children are not a dealbreaker. For her, they may not be. But for me, they absolutely are. I'm only 24 but if a guy didn't want kids, I'd walk. I would know that we had no long-term future because I want kids 110% (if it came to it, I'd even consider having them alone). The way I see it, if he disagrees with me on something as fundamental as having a family, he's not 'the one' anyway.

While I understand that children aren't to be rushed into, he also needs to realize that there is a very real biological factor that women need to consider. It's not very realistic if he's thinking that he'll wait until you are, say, 40.


But besides that... do you feel like your needs are being fully met in this relationship? Is he willing to compromise on any of these things? It just sounds (and it's hard to fully get the feel for the situation from posts alone) like he wants everything on his terms & on his time. I personally tend to think that nearly 2 years should be long enough for him to know the answers to these things.

 

[KCCutie]

You''ve gotten tons of great response but I''m going to throw in my 2 cents too.

I get the sense that you both really do love each other and care for each other and that''s wonderful. The fact that it took him a year to say "I love you" is not a big deal my SO took that long b/c he wanted to be sure the answer would be "I know, and I love you too" so he wanted to make sure it showed before he said it and it did. Now the fact that he says he''s not "head over heels for you" that''s a tough one. Maybe he is so logical minded that he''ll never be head over heels for anyone like others have said... but after 1 and 3/4 years he should have a good idea if you could be "the one." I know many guys like your SO very logical and careful, and not too open with emotion but I really think that when you know, "you just know."

I''m not saying you should leave, but I would encourage you to talk to him about this. Let him know that you''d like him to think about if you, are or could be "the one" maybe he just needs to think of it in different terms. See if he sees himself without you? My SO probably never would have said either of those things either but he did say that he doesn''t want to be without me, he can''t see himself without me and he doesn''t even want to think about it. Maybe your SO feels that way but you didn''t ask the question that way. Try to think of the way he may be seeing things and have another talk with him using more of his thinking than your own. Not that you should have to do that all the time but for now it''s a good way to make sure you''re both on the same page.

 

[trillionaire]

I have to agree with HollyS, 2 years to an "I love you" over here too. I also ask him everytime he is preparing to visit me whether he is "excited". He says "no" everytime! He thinks of excited differently than I do, and he says he doesn''t really get excited about anything, but he DOES get excited about me, you should see him chasing me around the apartment

! YOU would know how your relationship feels, so sometimes the words can be a bit confusing. I think you two sound like you are talking and communicating, so when you start to feel that you are getting to the end of your timeline, or that your relationship is not making progress, then have that conversation.

 

[krispi]

You guys don''t know what a big help you''ve been today! I was feeling especially down this morning, and I can''t tell you how much I appreciate your support and constructive comments.


Peridot - Not sure what my timetable is; I''ve been trying to figure that out. Before I met him and even when we first started dating, I was of the "if he doesn''t know by 2 years, he''s not going to know" mentality. But after spending time with him, I realized I probably wouldn''t be ready to call it quits by 2 years. And yes, I do very much feel the urgency to settle down and start a family, but I''m not sure if I should. Or is that just my emotional baggage talking?

Absolut-blonde - Yes, not wanting kids would be a dealbreaker for me as well. BF has said that he does want them, just that he doesn''t feel any rush. As far as my needs being not being met, that was an issue early on in our relationship, but we''ve really come a long way. He isn''t going to do anything if he''s not 100% sure though. He''s not the type who can be talked into doing anything if he doesn''t think it''s a good idea (or isn''t certain, in this case).

KCCutie - You make some really good points. He has said that he doesn''t want to be with anyone else, but he himself admitted he''s hung up on finding "the one". Sounds like he''s kind of between the two. Personally, I think he has some marriage fears about ending up with the wrong person.

Trillionaire - Yes, words can be confusing! Especially when I tend to verbalize everything I feel, and he tends to internalize it and think it over a long time first.


Just as another example of what a great guy he is, he just wrote to say that his 6 yr old nephew asked him if they could go swimming tonight in BF''s parent''s pool, and he couldn''t turn him down. Those are the kinds of qualities that make me really want to stick it out with him.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Date: 7/14/2008 5:16:46 PM
Author: krispi
You guys don''t know what a big help you''ve been today! I was feeling especially down this morning, and I can''t tell you how much I appreciate your support and constructive comments.


Peridot - Not sure what my timetable is; I''ve been trying to figure that out. Before I met him and even when we first started dating, I was of the ''if he doesn''t know by 2 years, he''s not going to know'' mentality. But after spending time with him, I realized I probably wouldn''t be ready to call it quits by 2 years. And yes, I do very much feel the urgency to settle down and start a family, but I''m not sure if I should. Or is that just my emotional baggage talking?

Absolut-blonde - Yes, not wanting kids would be a dealbreaker for me as well. BF has said that he does want them, just that he doesn''t feel any rush. As far as my needs being not being met, that was an issue early on in our relationship, but we''ve really come a long way. He isn''t going to do anything if he''s not 100% sure though. He''s not the type who can be talked into doing anything if he doesn''t think it''s a good idea (or isn''t certain, in this case).

KCCutie - You make some really good points. He has said that he doesn''t want to be with anyone else, but he himself admitted he''s hung up on finding ''the one''. Sounds like he''s kind of between the two. Personally, I think he has some marriage fears about ending up with the wrong person.

Trillionaire - Yes, words can be confusing! Especially when I tend to verbalize everything I feel, and he tends to internalize it and think it over a long time first.


Just as another example of what a great guy he is, he just wrote to say that his 6 yr old nephew asked him if they could go swimming tonight in BF''s parent''s pool, and he couldn''t turn him down. Those are the kinds of qualities that make me really want to stick it out with him.

On another board we referred to this as the BBD (bigger, better deal) syndrome. It sounds bad, but we found it was something men admitted to analyzing when they thought about marriage--is she "the one", is there a better fit out there, do the qualities I love outweigh the qualities I don''t love. While it was something that I never experienced (D''s fears were around marriage itself and knew if he didn''t marry me, he would never marry), it is something that seemed to be very common. Again, I do think he''s being honest with you and it allows you to figure out how long you want to give him to figure it out. I honestly do not think that the fact that he questions whether you are "the one" is bad, though I do understand that it''s hard to hear.

 

[LeggoMyEggo]

Oh Krispi, I''m so sorry to hear of your dilemma! I can only imagine how painful it must be to be asking yourself those questions.

I''m wondering a few things, though--

First of all, are you feeling anxious to move forward because you can''t imagine life without him, or because you can''t imagine life without children... and he happens to be the one you''re dating? How much does the daunting task of starting over, in terms of looking for someone else, factor in?

Also, even if he isn''t the "head over heels type", being so rational, shouldn''t he be able to weigh his options rationally at this point and decide how compatible you two are and whether or not he''d want to stay together forever? It sounds like he''d be a good businessman, and in the corporate world you don''t get to put off making decisions indefinitely-- you look at the facts, assess the situation, and make your choice because you have to. Not that anyone wants that sort of proposal, but if his thought process is exclusively rational, then it seems like that''s what he''d do.

Finally, I''m wondering what would happen if a year from now he still wants to stay "in the moment." You''d be one year closer to your biological alarm going off, and you''d be no further along than you are now. How do you envision yourself feeling at that point? (That''s not a loaded question-- I''m honestly wondering if you think you''ll feel sad, or hurt, or panicked, or clingy... basically whether you''d lean toward leaving then or toward pushing hard for a commitment.)


I know you don''t want advice telling you to leave, so I won''t tell you that. But I have to say that it saddens me to think of you, 30 years from now, in a relationship devoid of emotional expression. It saddens me to think of your children having a father who has to struggle to figure out how to show them affection.

I think you deserve to be with someone who is nuts about you, and from what you''ve said he''s not capable of being nuts about anyone. You can teach him to tell you that he loves you, but you can''t make him feel the passion that you deserve from a lifelong partner.

Whatever you decide to do, we are here for you.

 

[Guilty Pleasure]

hey there! I just wanted to give you a little hope for your brutally honest, non-head over heels guy. I swear you are describing my boyfriend and I a few years ago in our relationship. He has always been very honest - to the point of hurting my feelings when I asked how he felt. How awful to say "I''m not head over heels about you!" and he would say things like that for sure. He wasn''t affectionate with words and it took forever for him to say I love you. I''m talking years to get to the point where he said it without sounding nervous or having me say it first.

But NOW - he says I love you ALL the time. He says it a million different ways: "we love each other" "at least I love you" "did you know I love you?" He smothers me with hugs to the point of me actually asking for some breathing room. It''s like a new boyfriend, and I know it''s genuine because he proved that he doesn''t lie with all the times any normal guy would have given a white lie to keep me from being upset at him!

So maybe your guy will have the same kind of transformation. He''s still the same guy, but because his feelings have grown and transformed, his way of showing affection has grown and transformed.


I was also thinking of the five love languages, and was going to recommend it as well! I read that book and loved it. My SO read it too.

 

[allycat0303]

Hi Krispi,

Well I guess a lot depends on your relationship. I guess some questions I would ask myself (since you are a go with your gut kind of person) is do you think he thinks of you as "the one"? Also, I honestly don''t think that 1 year and 9 months is TOO long. I personally would have a hard time considering marriage to a person unless I had a good 3-4 years with them, but I am a VERY cautious person. (I''ve been with my guy for 14 years, but we started off young, 15 years old). It sounds to me from your post that you''re unsure of the relationship because you feel like he might not think you are "the one" although he is committed to you 110% right now. I can tell you that I was 110% committed to my guy, took forever to be engaged, and then had a lot of doubts after being engaged. I think it''s hard for a "gut" person to understand how cautious non-gut people can be. What I would do is to make myself a mental timeline, and just tell him "look, I love you, but if you haven''t made up your mind by x, I am going to seriously reevaluate the relationship. Marriage and kids is non negotiable to me." And then I wouldn''t mention it again. I think it''s hard to convince someone to get married, it''s personal and some people get there slower then others. But I think you also have to mentally prepare yourself, that by x, you may be leaving.

That''s just from personal experience. Trust me, my fiance talking to me about getting married did NOTHING to make me see things faster. Sometimes people need time to decided, as long as you have your personal bounderies, and can afford to be patient, there''s no harm to it.

Good luck!

 

[NYCsparkle]

hey krispi....i think everyone here has given you plenty of food for thought. i just hope you are sticking around this relationship because you 110% believe he''s the one and not because of your clock ticking, because you''d be settling and miserable in a few years. (my friend is in that position now and beginning to realize it). you guys aren''t dating for so long, but this should be the lovey dovey time of your relationship. i hope all works out the way you want, but imho i see red flags. deep down you know the answer.